I've used it for a year or two. After that weeds began to grow thru, around, or on top. IMO it depends some on where you are as to the value of a mulch. In my desert climate it's very useful. If you have excess rain you might be better off letting the grass use some water. But you do need something to make mowing easier. I think carpet could serve that purpose.

If in Socal, as I might guess from your crops, a mulch of any kind is highly recommended. Most of those folks will be on water rationing soon.

I am just south of Houston and we got a lot of rain. This house is new to us and irrigation is not set up for the trees yet. They will be relying on the rain for the most part this year! Do you have any issues with disease from using the carpet do you think?

Good thinking. I use some of the inexpensive carpet samples sold for a dollar at some dollar stores (and free sometimes when carpet sellers do away with out-of-date samples) to block weed growth in some areas. It does mean paying attention to watering those plants in an appropriate accommodation. A better use has been to suppress jujube sucker growth near the trunk area. By making a slit from the outer edge to the sample center and cutting an "eye hole" there for the trunk, you can make an effective blocker for all the many, continual suckers from poking upward. Of course, the jujube roots will spread all over, but they can easily be mowed when small. The same carpet sample with centered hole can be effective when placed around a single-trunk pomegranate to block the continual suckering from below the carpet. Of course the suckers will also emerge from the trunk above the carpet, but they are easier to deal with than those emerging from the soil zone. It would be good to remove the carpet sometimes, add soil amendments, fertilize, and water well. I also tried cut-out sections of clear vinyl runner used on top of carpeting, but Sunlight going through the vinyl was a problem, as well as eventually the UV rays cause the plastic to crack up and come apart. Carpet is much better. Good luck with your dabbling/experimenting.

No I don't see where that would aggravate any type of disease. Being that this is TX, a long dry spell is possible. So a mulch would be good and carpet qualifies. Just be sure it isn't causing the water to shed off away from the trees. A permeable carpet would be best.

Thanks y'all, I think we'll give it a try! This is old thin carpet- so I would imagine rain will go right through.

I did that and worked well, except that voles love to tunnel under it especially in winter, and voles eat on the roots. I now pull the carpet off in winter

This post was edited by strudeldog on Thu, Feb 20, 14 at 19:00

Back in the day my dad loved using carpet in the orchard.

My cautions: watch left litter/soil on it, remove before the backing breaks down and use a cut pile.

I am still pulling miles of yarn up in places

The vole warning should be taken seriously. I have used old carpet and I pull it away in the early fall. Where I pull it to there is major tunneling below by following spring- but I've got a lot of infrequently mowed turf where voles (field mice) prosper because grasses and weeds are allowed to go to seed. They aren't as prevalent in frequently mowed lawn.

I would dump the carpet when it starts to fall apart. I used wool carpet so I could let it rot where it was but I don't consider polyester and other synthetic components of cheap carpet a useful compost product.

Black plastic mulch staked down is the most functional methos that requires less attention.

I don't think there will be voles around Houston. They're mostly a northern species but do occur further south in SC and that area. There are none in western TX.

I would keep the grass and weeds at bay by weed whacking, mowing and/or with free mulch from a tree trimming service or municipal source. Scattered or piled up carpeting would look like heck. You want to take pride in your trees and your land, and you want your time spent around them to be pleasing.

mrclint: 'Function' has a higher value here than 'image'. That would be quite different if one were keeping up with the (British) Jones family's multimillion pounds property across the big pond with the large professional staff doing all the manicure work keeping up the property's famous English garden and especially when getting it ready for the next pretentious party for the invited uppity-ups. Hey, if it works, is economical, is beneficial, and does not cause a riot, it just might be worth trying. And avoid the pink, purple, and Las Vegas hotel-types of carpet. Tan really blends in well after it gets some dirt and grass clippings on top of it. For the image conscious who still want functional weed and sucker blocking around fruit trees.

Mr. Clint, no one is suggesting orange shag.

Seriously, carpeting could be an eye sore of not, depending on setting. My clients with landscapes they sometimes spend a million a year maintaining and probably average about a quarter of that are thrilled by my landscape.

Of course I use strictly high-class all-wool carpet of natural hues and my landscape is a bit on the wild side. Visitor comments range from "wow, this feels like Europe" to "I feel like I'm at a vineyard in Sonoma". Or they call it a Garden of Eden. (Who knows what they say when I'm not listening, however).

Many gardeners are much more interested in utility than ascetics- at least in their back yards.

On another subject- black plastic that is not porous is a poor weed stopper, in my opinion, and can be lethal if you leave it too long because oxygen starved roots are driven too close to the surface where severe cold may kill them.

I knew my comment would get these kinds of reactions. Let's be clear about my point, I'm talking about YOU enjoying YOUR trees and being proud of your hard work and commitment, that's a higher level of function (personal satisfaction). Stopping weeds can be done any number of ways. It's not about what anyone else thinks about anything. If you will enjoy tending to your trees with carpet laying around them, then go for it.

Yeah, I thought CWC's satire was a bit harsh (but awfully clever)- you never said pretty mulch was to impress the neighbors.

I use shredded wood within about 50 feet of my house, that's all the neat zone I need- got a patch of fairly frequently mowed lawn too- every two or three weeks or when guests come. It's to impress myself my wife and my visitors, I don't mind saying. Well, not mostly to impress, but to bring pleasure through the sight of it.

harvestman, that's one of the coolest things about the garden, orchard or any other well tended outdoor space - it's has a calming effect. It's nice to have a visually appealing place like that to go to. Likewise, I don't begrudge the folks that like to pile dog feces around their fruit trees. It just isn't for me on a number of different levels -- but mostly due to it taking away from my own personal enjoyment level of those outdoor areas.

As the sun and water break down the carpet I would guess chemicals would leach into the ground.

cckw: Which is one reason why the circular, water permeable, slit and eyeholed already, rubber 'skirts' sold at the box stores in their gardening dept and specifically.made for weed suppression around tree trunks(......whew, time to take a typing break) do not cover any of the fruiting trees, bushes, or vines here. They are touted proudly as a long lasting garden product made from recycled auto tires. But when you smell the dyed-maroon rubber disc/skirt, it still has the stench of rubber tires. My nose and I agree that these "professionally manufactured" and "politically correct recycled" skirts do not pass the smell test. Pun intended. Which is also why I did not have any interest in super cheap bags of box store old, slow moving shredded tire chunks marketed as mulch to suppress weed growth. If it always has the poisonous stench, well that is one' trickle down' activity that I do not want happening over fruiting plants. And the Sun and outdoor elements can even eventually decompose those ancient autos and tractors that we have seen rotting away in fields, so the shredded stenchy tires do not retain all of their poisonous molecules forever. They are best used to roll autos down the road, or even as the Vietnamese villagers decades ago cut foot-shaped pcs. and attached short straps to make thongs for comfy walkware.

Here's a link on one trained person's interpretation on the research concerning recycled tires and the affects of their chemicals on plant growth.

However, this doesn't have much to do with old carpet, which would have completely different chemistry. With tires, I agree, you can smell the potential problem.

Last year I installed 5 bearing age peach trees down flow from a playground that used shredded tires as a mulch. Because of a leak in pipes water from the playground soaked the trees in their stenchy runoff for a month before I came by to check the trees. The trees died, either from drowning, the chemical soup of runoff or a combination of the two. Not my fault, but I replaced the trees at my expense.

Carpet has been used for years as a weed stopper and I've not heard of any phytotoxic result. As far as fruit taking up enough chemicals from it to be a health hazard, I personally wouldn't worry about it but that's a judgement call.

Here is a link that might be useful: tire rubber mulch

Wow- some interesting takes here.

I am not a manicured lawn/property kinda gal. Some carpet around my fruit trees will not impact my enjoyment of them in the slightest. The trees are pretty but their #1 purpose to me is fruit for the family. I have three young hooligans to chase after and a house/property that we are slowly bringing back from years of neglect. Neither My husband or I has time/ energy to devote to gently weed whacking around our 15+ tree orchard area. We are on a tight budget as we work on "bones" and put off aesthetics...so buying anything for this purpose isn't an option right now. I don't love the idea of carpet as far as the chemicals go- but I am more ok with it than shredded tires. Ick- that smell is awful and I don't want them around my children.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to weigh in on this.

I'll take a moment to offer a plug for natural mulches. For my part, the advantages far outweigh the negatives.

Get some woodchips. For me, it's produced healthy trees and luscious fruit.

I can't believe this forum has degenerated to the point where the collective thought seems to be to restrict nutrients so much where people are now afraid to use organic mulches. Sad.

olpea, you are spot on. Please do not lump me in with the current climate of pervasive "group thought."

Wood chips and municipal mulch in most locales can be had for free. Natural mulches look natural and feed the soil food web, carpet not so much. The original poster wants to use old carpet, and the group has rubber stamped it with their approval. Case closed.

Using waste carpet is fine, using wood chips is fine- i mostly use wood but let's not make a crusade about it. Carpet is quick and sometimes weeds are terrible- if you don't have to deal with bind-weed or others that can quickly inhabit wood than you may not understand what leads people to look for other solutions.

Olpea, I predict the time will come when your massive piles of wood will create a soil that starts to produce peaches less sweet. You are not creating a soil that exists in the natural world.

I have 25 year old peach trees that were mulched for 20 consecutive years so I have some experience with this. They now have mowed grass at their base.

No, Mr. Clint, the case is not closed, it is open to debate.

I think the case is closed for the original poster. They got their answer and I'd bet the carpet has already been laid/strewn/tossed/whatever. The topic of whether or not to add mulch will be bashed around like a Piñata ad infinitum.

The "you're going to regret mulching 20 years from now" point seems a little weak. Is this really guaranteed to happen? Will the fruit be less sweet due to the age of the trees or from mulching? After 20 years of mulching SOMETHING very good will grow there. That is fully reproducible in nature.

Thanks for adding what now-deceased news commentator Paul Harvey termed "the rest of the story". Being in a place with lots of giant trees also means that professional tree trimmers are sometimes working nearby cutting and chipping tons of very valuable material that I regularly ask them to empty here for distribution around many trees/bushes/vines. The resident termite population really seems to take advantage of these cellulose cafeterias, being that they can enjoy several types of trees for meals furnished 'with all the trimmings'. For termite reasons, I choose to use the mountains of mulch only on fruit growing a good distance from the house. The decaying wood and leaves do WONDERFUL things to make giant forests exist without humans spreading 13-13-13 on the forest floor.Or putting in sprinkler systems. Building soil is a whole lot easier when employing worms, insects, fungi, bacteria, et al to do all the heavy lifting after the mulch is in place. Their motto is 'Will Work For Food'. That way the 13-13-13 can stay on the store shelves.....The weeds and suckers on fruit growing within the termite discouragement zone get dealt with using mowers, weed wacking, some hand pulling, shallow hoeing, and even some carpet/rug covering used strategically. The Round-Up only comes out when a new Poison Ivy sprout appears, or maybe poison Oak, or maybe thorny wild blackberry vines poke out. After a heavy rain I use a LONG handled needle nosed pliers to easily pull out tree seedlings from giant pecan, elm, etc. tree seeds that germinate close to fruiting plants and send down deep tap roots. Thanks again for putting the deserving spotlight on the ultimate mulch.

Mr. Clint, I never suggested your point was "weak" and I don't see the value here of grading the merit of a point, just take it on if you want to debate it.

"Case closed" is an expression that generally means, "my argument is so complete there can be no doubt about its correctness" or something about the equivalent. I respect you and take your words seriously, and I naturally expect them to fall within the framework of generally accepted meaning.

As far as my point that such soil doesn't exist in nature- it is a valid one- the natural mulching that occurs from dying plants and dropping leaves is not the equivalent of pouring on ten times as much organic matter as would ever occur in nature. At least not when there is adequate oxygen to lead to efficient digestion or the organic matter. Muck soils and peat bogs fit this description.

Over time heavy mulching creates an exceptionally rich soil and I've even brought out research in the past that indicates this happens, with the result of much more vigorous trees. This has been proven- all that remains is to make the link of excessive vegetative vigor to lower brix, which is practically a given, having been proven when excessive vigor is created by other means. It is one reason better grapes come from weaker soils.

You seem to have almost unshakable belief that whatever works in your climate and your small backyard represents universal horticultural truth. If you had to put your theories to test in scores of soils and a vast range of conditions in general, you'd probably have a more flexible orthodoxy. Occasional failure is a wonderful teacher.

Mulching occurs naturally in forests and other areas where organic matter settles. It isn't particularly high in Nitrogen.

"As far as my point that such soil doesn't exist in nature- it is a valid one- the natural mulching that occurs from dying plants and dropping leaves is not the equivalent of pouring on ten times as much organic matter as would ever occur in nature."

That's true, but neither is applying synthetic N concentrated more than 10X that of wood chips part of nature. Viticulturists are experts in brix, and as far as I know, wine grapes all have fertilizer recommendations for applying synthetic N, much more than would occur in nature.

Carbon - Nitrogen ratio varies among wood chips, but an estimate would be 200 to 1. That means wood chips would have 0.5% N. If top dressed, most of that is released in the air. Very little N to the soil.

In terms of too much organic matter, I think folks like Dovegirl in TX or folks in CA have little to worry about. They are starting with so little organic matter to begin with. I can't help but think Hman, you are projecting your own experiences on other locales, as I am prone to do. I know you've lived a good portion of your life in CA, but I've not heard you mention you ruined fruit quality there by over mulching. Rainfall, temperature, amount of sunshine, and the baseline of the soil at the beginning, all factor into the fruit quality.

A low estimate for peach yield is 15,000 lbs. per acre. Apple yields are even higher. This removes a lot of N and other nutrients. OM is continually released on cultivated or vegetation free soils (as in the case of orchards). I think the danger for folks in places like TX and CA is not too many nutrients, but nutrient deficiency.

Below is an article where wood chips were applied for 15 years in vegetable research. The organic matter did not appreciate excessively (moved from 4% to 5.1) over that period. A lot of these marginal soils in CA or TX have 2% OM. I doubt they could ever get to the natural level of OM in the Northeast, or where I live (5% OM).

Wood Chips in Vegetable Production

Lastly, there is new research which indicates soil is not the primary factor in wine grape quality. According to the link below,

"Instead, Havlin says, the climate around the vineyard drives the flavors of the wines much more than the soil type. The amount of rainfall during a season, the rainfall distribution, and the temperatures that the vines encounter can all drastically change the amounts and types of flavor compounds and the final wine in the bottle."

From Soil Profiles to Flavor Profiles: Is There a Connection When it Comes to Winemaking?

By far, I think sunlight, rainfall, variety, and fruit maturity are the biggest factors affecting tree fruit quality. Here in KS, we get plenty of blistering sun. Rainfall is variable. Harvest and varietal choice are up to the grower.

Olpea, I have posted research that showed that only ten years of continuous mulching caused excessive invigoration of apple trees in the humid region. You have nothing that refutes this in a way that suggests the same thing won't happen in reasonably good soils anywhere that might receive ample rainfall during the later ripening process- I'm sure that happens some years in KS, and I do fear that if you continue to pile on over 4" of mulch every year you will end up with declining brix.

I don't make this prediction to make you anxious or feel bad, but just as a warning if you begin to see a problem with fruit quality you should consider this as a source. I probably shouldn't have termed it a prediction so much as a warning. I've no idea what will happen there, but I'm pretty sure I've suffered from over zealous mulching here. It continues with a Red Haven I have even on relatively dry years- big beautiful peaches but only one in 4 with good sugar. The soil was a sandy loam without much OM when I started- you should see the growth I get now.

What you fail to note is that the composting process eventually leads to the development of high populations of N. fixing bacteria which I've read of one researcher suggesting is a contributor to the invigorating aspect of high carbo mulch over time.

One problem with a large organic input of N is you have no control of when the trees will pick it up. It is helpful around bloom for fruit quality and set, but during the summer months, when the majority is released, it tends to serve leaves and wood. Nature doesn't care if your fruit is of max quality- more important to invigorate the tree.

What is the problem with using carpet for weed control that would otherwise end up in a landfill, burning diesel to get it there? Seems like a very eco-friendly strategy to me. Some people find wheeling piles of mulch around very exhausting and time consuming. It is the most expensive aspect of my nursery management system.

I asked the big 'mulch' question about a month or so ago. I have now decided to promote easy mowing and just let grass grow around the estabished trees. They will be fed, and cared for but round rings of mulch are not impossible to mow around, but a real neck jerker when it come to horsing around the lawn mower! Mrs. G

Fruit trees grow fine on mowed turf if the soil is decent- at least once they are established.

I use pine needles, you can hit it with the mower all you want, and it breaks down slowly, has a lot less mass than wood chips so no excessive build up of nitrogen. Yet still get's the job done. My in-laws have a few hundred pine trees on their property, I could harvest enough for Olpea whole orchard, with enough left over for Harvestman's projects. Also unlike some it is a nice soft needle that one can easily handle without gloves. Having not made the trip up north to the in-laws in a while I went to the city property and raked some up, it is a different pine with long fierce hard needles. It works, but is a little harder to work with. Next time I go up north I'm going to make sure to bring enough yard waste bags to last me a bit. About 4 or 5000 yard waste bags of needles fall every year on the property.

Here's a photo of the stuff in my raised beds. Not a weed to be seen....

"Fruit trees grow fine on mowed turf if the soil is decent- at least once they are established."

But then the landscapers leave that nice weed whacker ring on your trees...

I wish I had easy access to endless pine needles. I like them as mulch as well. You can put down much less matter to get the same weed suppression. Pine needles are not so rich in nutrients as hardwood leaves but certainly richer than straight chipped hardwood from large wood, so I'm not sure what would be the affect after about 15 years of subsequent applications under a tree. In the forest they do create a very nice humus under their canopy.

As far as weed whackers, you can avoid whacker injury by using just a small circle of shredded wood if you don't want hard plastic rings around the base of your trees.

I thought about this today while out on a walk.

I noticed how quickly the weeds had grown up through a sand pad in the park (used for disc golf)

And then I realized.....they were weeds grown up and through carpet.

I have an excellent source for pine needles. Two thirty five foot Norwegian Pines! Can I use them on raspberries and blackberries? H-man many of my trees are now established. I will continue to mulch the ones that are not.

I installed the cheap astroturf from HD. I cut out an 18" square around each orange tree and used brick edging. The yard is about 12x20. New neighbors laughed. Ill bet they changed their mind when they received their first 400 water bill.
The trees have been growing for five years with no detrimental effect on my trees.

"have an excellent source for pine needles. Two thirty five foot Norwegian Pines! Can I use them on raspberries and blackberries?"

Yes, you see the photo early in the spring, now look at the bed in the summer

{{gwi:23061}}

The raspberries are doing well

Another photo a little later on in late summer
{{gwi:62165}}

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Feb 25, 14 at 4:09

I should mention that my experience of losing sweetness of peaches after 20 years of mulching is entirely anecdotal, although I've seen some research that seems to support the connection. I didn't mean to suggest that organic mulch as a permanent weed solution is a problem everywhere or even that I'm certain it's a problem on my own property. I'm only suggesting it may be a problem over time at some sites.

What I do know is that the standard advice is to keep tree vigor moderate to produce the highest quality of fruit. Vegetable growers know this applies to tomatoes as well and probably all other annual garden fruits that we call vegetables that are improved by more of their own sugar.

I've also learned that fruit trees can do fine in mowed sod once they are established although it was never my preferred management method until I became suspicious of mulch sometimes over invigorating trees I care for. On some sites I continue to mulch peaches and cherries after I stop mulching apples because it supports the vigor I wish to maintain.

The point is to keep your trees at the sweet spot, where they are vigorous enough to fight disease and grow perfect fruit and this will have everything to do with what your soil and climate is to begin with.

Peaches as a species require more vigor and more nitrogen than apples according to general recommendations. Young trees of all species are best served by keeping them very vigorous so they can overcome competition and pests and achieve their place in the sun and bear large crops quickly.

So the best advice I can give is to try to maintain the sweet spot of moderate vigor for bearing trees and watch their growth to determine how you manage them from that.

I have been lurking in following this discussion and I would like to make a comment.

I think it is safe to say... as it relates to the __backyard orchard and to the non-mega commercial orchard__...

That there are so many variables involved that there is no single "absolute must do" methodology that will work everywhere for everyone.

Yes... obviously there are some general principles and parameters that we must and should all follow.

But, even two twin brothers/sisters raising identical twin orchards will need to tackle the same problem in different ways based on who has more time to devote to the orchard or more or different resources, or different goals or whatever. Never mind differing climate (in the orchard not globally), different soils, pest pressures...and I could go on and on.

In this discussion and in some others here, too many seem to be "invested" winning the "which method is best" argument. The defense of methods then seems to take on personal overtones. The back and forth then moves further and further away (sometimes in a personal way) from finding a solution to the original problem or question. We wind up getting lost in the weeds.

Though there are different roads to the same destination, too many here get too warm under the collar if their preferred method is not accepted 100%.

Don't get me wrong... the information delivered by way of this "back and forth" is super valuable. The method of delivering it is sometimes lacking (imo) .

This is one aspect of climate change I could support (sorry.. just could not resist) :)

Mike

This post was edited by mes111 on Tue, Feb 25, 14 at 10:04

Mike: In keeping with your statement about "too many seem to be invested winning the "which method is best" argument", please consider to personally apply your exhortation to your own religious zeal about the climate thingy. I would not want you to eventually end up as a shaved head guy in a robe handing out "Al Gore For Emporer" pamphlets at a major airport. No snarkiness intended, bro.

CWC;

I don't think you read my posts on the climate thingy very carefully. If you had you would note that I have no zeal, religious or otherwise, about the climate thingy as I have said several times. But just to clear things up... my take on GW CC etc is ..
(1) I don't know if there is or not,but if there is
(2) I don't know if it is man made, and
(3) if man made I don't see what we can do about it and
(4) if yes to all of the foregoing then
(5) I don't know that it would be so horrible.

There !!!! See no zeal.

My zeal, if any, is directed at those who would seek to shut off a conversation, to stifle debate, to resort to insulting/denigrating/marginalizing an opponent rather than undercutting his argument.

My zeal is directed at the intellectual dishonesty that says that "... you are free to take any position you want... as long as it agrees with mine". Or "... if you try to present a position that disagrees with mine I will shout you down".

I find that, usually, the religious fervor and zeal is on the side that is trying to change the world and not the side that is trying to avoid a headlong rush into the unknown.

And lastly... Hey, I'm not shy and am always ready to "mix it up" on topics like politics, environmental issues, love/peace/war, etc. ... that could be fun!!!.

But, I was just commenting on the reactions to advice on THE USE OF CARPET IN THE GARDEN, for heaven's sake.

Just silly me I guess.
Mike
Darn... just realized I took the bait
But, still in a god mood....

This post was edited by mes111 on Tue, Feb 25, 14 at 15:16

mike: "But, still in a god mood.... "
Is that good mood, god mood, or god mode? :)

Eboone:

Oooh Boy!!! . Can imagine what some are thinking of me... LOL,

Definitely __GOOOD MOOOD__

I won't "edit" so others reading won't ask " what the ____ is eboone talking about?".

Mike

Mike, I'd rather you kept your discussions about your topics over on your own messages as nothing you've posted here has anything to do specifically with carpet around fruit trees.

I probably wouldn't be complaining except I'm consciously avoiding your climate discussions and you are making it more difficult than it should be.

I am 74 and my bucket list included having an orchard. I now have 75 fruit trees...all kinds from nuts to pit and seed fruit. We have a lot of deer so I have to make a 4 ft high ring of fencing wire around trees to keep the deer away. Uses about 12 to 15 ft of wire to make the circles.

So I have to remove the wire and mow ...then I put the mowed grass as a mulch. we put outdoor grass carpet two places near the house so replace it every couple years. (We don't glue it down..take it up for the winter) We now have grass carpet to make rings with.

Sounds like I should remove the carpet about once a month for a couple days at a time and then put the circles off during the winter and store for next year My trees vary in age and I took these pictures right after mowing so most of the wires have not been replaced. I get apples and pears most years now . The Asian pear being my favorite. It takes me a good 8 solid hours to remove wire and then mow and replace the wire.

Once the tees are big enough maybe the deer won't destroy the trees but until then I have to mow by hand.