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Apple rootstock suggestions

Posted by JoppaRich 7b (My Page) on
Mon, Feb 3, 14 at 13:59

I bought a property this last year, and I'm going to start putting together an orchard. I'm about to start ordering bareroot trees, and am looking for suggestions for apple rootstocks.

I live outside of Richmond VA, in zone 7b. My soil is anywhere from 2" to 2' of nice soft loam on top of who knows how deep clay.

This is my first year here, so I'm not real sure whether or not this is normal, but this winter was very wet, and the yard was very squishy for a good chunk of the winter. We had standing water in some places for quite a bit of time.

I've heard that fireblight is a big problem around here.

So, I'm looking for rootstocks that are fireblight resistant, ideally dwarf or semi-dwarf, that can handle the ground staying a bit wet over the winter.

Any suggestions?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

  • Posted by fruitnut z7b-8a,4500ft SW TX (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 3, 14 at 23:14

Do a search for a chart comparing Geneva rootstocks. I'd give you a direct link but all I'm coming up with right now is a pdf.


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

Here is a link to the newer Geneva rootstocks, which are not all widely available yet. In the next post I have another link to info that includes a lot of other apple rootstocks.
I noted that the chart does not really say how these handle moist soils. Your best bet for the poor drainage would be to make raised mounds several inches at least above the surrounding yard to plant the apples, or if your yard has a higher end that drains better, use that area. Maybe something could be done to improve drainage away from the planting as well.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cornell description of new Geneva rootstocks


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

Here is another link to some apple rootstock info. Use Google on the subject, lot of info out there. I think the drainage issue you have may be more important in the long run than what rootstock you use. Search the forum, there have been a few discussions on planting in raised mounds or rows here in the past year.

Here is a link that might be useful: apple rootstock listing


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

Its often wet in winter. The problem is if its wet in the summer.

Few nurseries sell the newest rootstocks and to get selection I would stick with the tried and true ones. For you that probably means M7 or MM111. Avoid MM106, it is water adverse, and avoid M26 and M9 due to firelight problems. The newer Geneva stocks are better if you can find them but as long as you avoid the above bad ones it should not matter so much.

Scott


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

Thanks.

Onegreenworld has M7 for $2.50 each in the volume I'm looking for (lets say $3.50 shipped), so that certainly works.

What do you guys prefer for scion sources? I'd like to graft my own trees if possible for the experience, etc.


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

Rich, if you are grafting yourself you may be able to get one of the new Geneva stocks. But they are in high demand and perhaps everyone is sold out of them at this point. I just checked Williamette, my standard bulk rootstock source, and they are pretty much sold out of Geneva stocks (except G16 which I would not recommend - too virus-sensitive).

Maple Valley has a lot of apple scions. I got nearly all mine from Nick Botner but last year was his last year in business. Richard Fahey is another good source, write him for list. I just heard that Hocking Hills Orchard is selling scions, they have 700+ varieties. Fedco also sells scionwood. Seed Savers now has a good apple selection; you need to pay to join first though. There is a list somewhere in this forum of other places.

Scott

Edit: I just noticed that Seed Savers redid their website, they now have a lot of apple pictures up. It looks like they have 850 varieties of apples now. Their prices are $40 to join and $5 per stick.

Here is a link that might be useful: SSE apples

This post was edited by scottfsmith on Wed, Feb 5, 14 at 9:34


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

  • Posted by bob_z6 6b/7a SW CT (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 5, 14 at 11:38

The place to get Geneva rootstocks is Cummins. Per their site, they have G11, G16, G202 and G30. But, they likely have some of the others, if you ask. I was able to some G65 from them last spring.

You can also find a few Geneva rootstocks at Grandpas Orchard and Raintree, though they are a bit more expensive and with fewer options. James Cummins, the founder of Cummins nursery is one of the Cornell researchers involved with their development, so it makes sense that he would specialize in them...

Here's my favorite rootstock chart. If you want semi-dwarf, G202 looks pretty good. For a smaller tree G11 or G41 seems good. For a tiny tree, G65.


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

The question becomes how many do you need? If you need hundreds buy from Lawyer nursery for 5 times less the price but it you need 10 any of the above mentioned and others are fine. Some of those new rootstocks require staking and they are not as proven in my opinion as mm111. The advantage is they produce apples twice as fast and are probably as good or better than mm111 but no one really knows. MM111 takes twice as long to produce apples as some rootstocks but long term it's disease resistant and adapts well to most any soil. For me getting the apples twice as fast using new rootstocks sounds like a great idea but I know Mm111 and would still use it.


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

I'm still trying to figure out how many I need.

I've got a pasture that the previous occupants fenced off. I think they misread the deed/survey, and put the fence up 16 feet from the property line. There's an easement that's 16 feet wide, but only half of it runs on my property, so basically there's 8 feet of utility/drainage easement, then 8 feet of just empty space, and then the 6 foot horse fence.

I'm planning on putting sheep in the pasture, but i've basically got a 8' by 325 feet area between the easement and the fence where I'd like to put some trees. The area runs east to west, and the pasture is on the south side, so it gets full sun.


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

Property lines and fences are a challenging problem. I would go off the county survey and move the fence to their specs and then plant the trees. If you have 8' to work with mm111 is a bad choice because the get wider than that so the above mentioned dwarf rootstock will be a better option.


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

This guide should give you the information you need

Here is a link that might be useful: Rootstock info


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

I am not sure that the Geneva rootstocks are superior for home growers to something like 111. Have any of you seen a 111 tree killed to the ground by fireblight ? I haven't.

I've seen no research to convince me of the general superiority for home growing, although this may be ignorance on my part. 111 is generally the best rootstock for home growers that I use. M7 will often blow over in wet soils- often when trees don't even have fruit in the fall- this is more than an occasional problem and most often comes into play when you think trees are well established and bearing full loads of fruit. It is not a problem with the more vigorous and later fruiting varieties, however.

Is there a Geneva rootstock as efficient at pulling water from dry soil and also surviving wet conditions as 111?

From my reading, where the Geneva's are mostly being touted is in commercial production on the more dwarfing rootstocks.

Cummins himself considers the main advantage of 30 over 111 being the lack of burr knots, but burr knots have never been an issue for me and you can always pile the soil up to the union if you live where it is a problem.

I don't claim to have enough experience with the Geneva rootsocks to be an authority but I'd like to hear from someone with direct comparative experience chime in. I have some, but not enough- maybe precocity is a big advantage with G 30, but that would only matter with later bearing types.

G30 may have compatibility problems with Kidd's Orange Red. Had one snap off cleanly at the union without tearing anything- it was a bearing tree. I wonder what other varieties this may pertain to.


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

Harvestman I absolutely agree mm111 in my opinion sets the standard when it comes to healthy long lived fruit trees the drawback is the time it takes to get fruit. Geneva rootstock will produce fruit twice as fast as 111. They grow so fast that as I mentioned they get spindly and require staking. I'm going to grow half and half this year and do some experimenting. The 111 will be the rootstocks I count on 20-30 years from now staying alive and producing in my old age. Geneva will be what I count on producing 2-3 years from now. 111 in my area does not come into production for 5-12 years. Like the saying pears for your heirs the 111 is not to different in this heavy clay soil of Kansas. 111 is what I recommend but I'm always willing to try new things but I'm smart enough to not count on them. I already have over 5 acres of mature fruit so I can afford a little experimenting. At this point to me Geneva is a novelty until I see them in action for the next 10 years. I plant some kind of fruit every year which is sometimes a few trees and other times we plant a few acres. Due to the drought the last several years we have been planting conservatively.


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

Fireblight definitely does not bother my 111's but I have seen it kill a manchurian apricot and Hansen cherry to the ground during a wet hot spring. It killed 1 out of an entire row both times and the trees only feet away were tip burned. Since we have had a drought we have not seen blight damage in years


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

  • Posted by fruitnut z7b-8a,4500ft SW TX (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 11, 14 at 9:07

Fire blight doesn't occur in apricot or cherry. They are totally immune. In those species it's going to be bacterial canker or something akin, not fire blight.


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

Thank you for letting me know because I misidentified what caused the problem. The trees turned brown top to bottom as if the y had been hit with herbicide . We had sprayed with captan every 7-10 days that year so now I'm at a complete loss to the cause. I noticed the tips of new growth on other trees died back as well. We used dormant oil spray that winter. We used multipurpose insect spray before and after bloom as we always do. We assumed it was Fireblight due to the symptoms . So it affects pome fruit only?


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

  • Posted by fruitnut z7b-8a,4500ft SW TX (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 11, 14 at 11:14

I've only heard of it in apple, pear, and quince. It could affect other pome fruits. But never stone fruits. Bacterial canker is somewhat similar in stone fruit. But it doesn't travel through the plant like fire blight does.


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

Ideally I'd like to put the trees up between the fence and the easement, with the fence protecting the trees from the sheep. The county hasn't touched the easement at any point (and I don't think they will unless another development gets put in behind me), so wider than 8' may be ok, but not too much.

I think M111 is going to be too big.

In that 8-12 foot wide size, what am I looking? G202 was recommended earlier, and says 35% size tree. Is that about what I'm looking for sizewise?


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RE: Apple rootstock suggestions

  • Posted by fruitnut z7b-8a,4500ft SW TX (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 11, 14 at 13:00

Yes 35% is about right. I've had good luck with M9 and M26. Of the new rootstocks G41 is highly regarded.


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