We need to know what % of the trees circumference is girdled. Unless it is all or most, just let the tree heal on it's own. Obviously you need to prevent this next winter. I'd think about wire mesh from ground to well above snow level.

Looking forward to seeing pix.

Eric

Konrad

Did you mean Joke? My suggestion is just a experiment. Practice grafting. I probably would not do it.

I had voles in the early days. I believe I got rid of them by eliminating the grass around my trees.

Eric

http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz7/mkmcde/tree006.jpg

http://s808.photobucket.com/albums/zz7/mkmcde/

THISISME to the rescue.

Puts on cape, clears his voice and says in his most manly voice. "Nows the time to save the day!!!"

Once your picture has been uploaded to a image hosting site such as Photobucket or Flickr, find its web address by right clicking on the image and copying the image location. Some sites may even provide the address in a text box below the photo for your convenience.

Let's say, as an example, that the address of the picture you want to post is http://somepicturesite.com/yourpicture.jpg

To embed the picture into a post, use the command
<img src="http://somepicturesite.com/yourpicture.jpg">

Note that I had to use special characters to get the command above to show up here without turning into a picture, but you can use it as shown (with the correct image location, of course).

You are so close to posting pictures. Next time cut and paste the HTML code into the message body. Looks like you were trying to cut and paste the direct link.

Sorry about the trees. That's serious chewing. Little bastards. I'd be like Elmer Fudd, wabbit hunting. Looks like you had at least two and half feet of snow.

Eric

Your right Eric...the last Nor-Eastern that hit put 2 feet of snow on the ground, the trees were find before that storm 3 weeks ago...going hunting in the morning...funny rabbit...

also thanks for the help with the pictures I will remember how to post them now.

There is one thing you could try, but I don't know of any long-term, scientific studies that prove its value. One of the frequent contributors in the tree forum, Spruceman, has suggested the use of liquid copper fungicide to prevent rot in similar situations. I haven't seen anyone, so far, show any negative side effects or disprove its usefulness. It might be worth looking into.

I have sometimes used electric rubber tape over vole girdled trees to try to reduce dehydration from exposure as well as to encourage the continued flow of sap from the roots while the tree rebuilds cambium. For severely injured trees like the photos show- at least the ones almost entirely girdled I've use plastic attached with the same tape.

Anecdotally this seemed to help, which is practically meaningless because I've used no control to evaluate results but at least it made my customers feel better.

Most of the photographed trees should have no trouble healing in any case, and will have such a tough callus the rabits will be unable to damage them the same way again IME.

I once had a snow year where rabbits completely girdled the first 4' of trunk of many trees in my nursery. It was a total loss because even if I'd tried an approach graft with a small tree I could never have sold the resulting tree.

If you don't paint them you will be inviting borers and disease into your trees.

---------------------

Mjmarco, when I posted my original post, I almost went into the borer situation, but erased what I had written for simplicity and just wrote, "(sealers) have been found to be counterproductive in most circumstances." Looking back, I think that may have been an oversimplification or even a possibly misleading oversimplification.

While many of the snake-oil sealers out there (asphalt emulsion gunk, etc) have no merit and have been proven to be counterproductive, the half-strength indoor latex paint, that Thisisme's link discussed, does have it's positives and is widely recommended to protect against borers and specific disease issues in certain situations. From what I can tell, the evidence seems to lean, at least somewhat, towards using the treatment Thisisme's link suggests. If you haven't already, I'd at least recommend researching the possibility of borers. Your local ag extension office might be able to provide a knowledgeable opinion/advise.

This is a more complex set of issues than it might first appear, and I'm sorry if my previous posts jumped the gun.

You want an "flat interior latex paint." Not exterior and not latex enamel and not a gloss. Just a plain flat interior latex paint. The easy way to do this is to got to one of the big box stores. Tell them what you want and ask them to put a quart in a half gallon container. When you get home fill it the rest of the way with water and shake before well use.

Eric

Konrad

The purpose of using the paint, as Thisisme noted in his second post above, is to keep borers out and not to seal in moisture or prevent rot. Even with larger wounds like the ones on your otherwise healthy trees, moisture loss should be of minimal concern. Without the possibility of borer damage, your tree is probably better off without the paint. BUT, if borers are present, I believe the paint should be an overall positive.

--------------------------

I've seen lots of reports of rabbit damage this year. I'm not sure if it will help much to know this, but you certainly aren't alone. I don't know if it has been the timing of the snowfalls, the amount of snow, or what. I know I would really really freak if I came and found this kind of damage to my trees. Whatever you decide to do with them, I hope your trees do well and heal quickly.

Rabbit damage is cyclical, based mostly on a combination of 2 factors. Like most rodents, rabbits have extreme cycles of population boom and bust and when a boom year matches a snow year- look out. Snow locks out other sources of food and raises access to bark. This is based on my observations only, by the way.

What you need to look for is rabbit poop on top of the snow, at such times where there's a noticable amount you may be able to prune your trees early and give the rabbits
sustenance more nourishing than the crucial bark at the base of your trees. Prune your apple trees gradually so there are always some branches above the snow.

You can wrap foil around the trunks as the snow gets ever higher, as rabbits will only work the area above the snow, unlike voles and they will not, in my experience, try to chew through foil.

I think what happened to the many trees I saw was the sun dried out the wound and killed more wood. The dead wood accepted water and thus mold and fungus. Then rot set in which killed the trees. At least thats what it looked like to me. Every tree I saw like that died. A 100% mortality rate if untreated. I don't think treating it could be any worse than that.

Cheers

Kim

The compartmentalization of trees allow them to fairly effectively limit moisture flow in the case of wounding. They do this by sacrificing material near the wound. This is done whether a sealant is added or not. An artificial seal only holds moisture in against the dead material and increases the chance of rot. Rot doesn't occur in trees because of wood drying out, and in fact, sufficient moisture is required for rot to occur.

Whether Mjmarco's trees will successfully cover over their wounds and survive long-term will depend on quite a few factors. The speed at which these types of trees can cover their wounds, multiple environmental factors, the exact nature of the wounds, etc. But, it boils down mostly to whether the trees can cover the area before significant rot is introduced. I have very little personal experience will apple tree wounds, so many of you guys are probably a better judge of how fast the wounds will be covered than I am, but I'd guess the long-term future of some of these trees is questionable.

One aspect that may be important here is how long the trees need to last. I don't know what Mjmarco's plans are for the trees, but many fruit tree growers don't keep trees for the really long-term. The survival of a large shade tree, in the center of one's lawn or overhanging a house, can be significantly different than that of an apple tree being grown relatively temporarily for its crop.

For more serious wounds there have been experiments such as one noted by Richard Harris in "Arboriculture" third edition, page 531 which reads, "McDougall and Blanchette (1966) covered wounds of quaking aspen, red maple, with polyethylene plastic sheeting. Such treatment reduced dieback along margins and promoted callus growth on maple and aspen, but not on birch. They attributed the positive affects of treatment to reduced dessication of wound margins, retaining ethylene near the wound and providing thermal protection.

Does similar treatment aid in the healing of seriously wounded apple trees such as the girdled trees we are discussing? My guess is that no one knows and won't until someone performs some controlled experiments.

I'm glad our competition leads to getting information I might otherwise miss and when I'm wrong I'll admit it. Be nice to get a little of that back.

Keep the information coming.

Eric

Sorry Brandon, I have no data to back this up.

Brandon, You now have two minutes to rebut.

Eric

OK, Harvestman, I'll give you credit for pointing out the my sentence was too broad. I don't consider the McDougall and Blanchette study a contradiction to what I meant to say (was thinking), but I it does invalidate the sentence, as written.

And, the study is interesting. I had not seen or heard of it before. I have, and have read, Harris's book, but missed that one (and probably lots more).

This should make you happy...I'm thinking about starting a thread on the tree forum about this study. I bet few of the peps there have seen it either.

Yes, my method of learning is a definate contrarian choreography. Don't know if it's genetic wiring or the result of having been raised with an older brother who became a lawyer, but arguments inspire me to think out issues more completely.

Before leaving the subject of what can be done to aid in a tree’s recovery after severe girdling injury, I’d like to throw out one question for anyone still interested (hopefully Brandon) to consider. That is, does the research about using compounds to aid in the healing of wounds completely address the question about increasing the odds of survival of a tree wounded in this manner?

All the research I’ve been able to find on this subject only investigates how pruning compounds affect the speed of wound closure and the relative size of the area of fungus damaged (stained) wood, not on the actual survival rate of seriously injured trees.

I first became intensely interested in this issue when about a hundred apple trees that had been growing in my nursery for 3 years were severely injured by voles one winter. I discovered the damage in spring and bridge grafting was not a viable option. I wasn’t primarily interested in how quickly I could get the wounds to close but only in trying to keep the trees alive, and I imagined that by tightly taping the trunk I might help the tree get a little extra moisture to the top of the tree and reduce desiccation, not at the wound, but in the upper portion of the tree. I suppose I was visualizing the tree trunk as a hose where the transpiration pull of water from the roots to the leaves could be aided by partially fixing a real bad leak.

At the time, I knew this was a long shot, and I was well aware of the studies that Brandon so often sites, about the futility of wound dressings- one of my teachers in hort-school was an absolute Shigo fanatic (Shigo is the researcher most credited for discrediting the use of pruning compounds) and I still have 2 of his books on my shelf.

I taped the trees with rubber electric tape anyway, and many of the trees, some of which looked to be entirely girdled, eventually healed over and went on to be sellable trees. Of course they probably would have healed anyway, but I’d still like an explanation of whether my hose theory has any validity at all. I just don’t have an adequate understanding of dicot vascular function to be completely settled on the question.

I have often seen completely girdled trees struggle for several years, sending out tiny and weak leaves, and then eventually build their own bridge of cambium tissue and return to vigor. On my sister’s property, in coastal CA, I’ve seen apple trees completely girdled by goats for their first 3 feet of trunk and still thriving years later, which completely blew my mind. I could only guess that the trees were aided by the near constant humidity of her coastal redwood environment and the fact that the trees were in a very shady location. The bark was completely stripped. Not that any of this is any evidence about how such miraculous recovery can be aided with human intervention. Actually, shading injured plants might help! There’s a research project.

Many aspects of aftercare can be considered on an individual basis. There is already considerable information out there about such things as cleaning wounds and wound dressing, but no single aspect will independently determine the odds of survival in most cases. Of course if a variable is taken to an extreme (such as, if girdling was severe and total), a single variable might be enough to ensure failure.

I'm not sure I exactly understand your hose theory. I understand what you wrote, but I'm not comfortable making assumptions about some of the specifics.

Don't know if that explanation makes any sense, but it's the best I can do tonight- too tired, too much pruning.

Sounds like bypass surgery to me. If I understand what you are saying, could you not install straws above and below the girdle. With a tight enough fit it would draw.
Well not straws, but you get the point.

I doubt it.

Eric

Anyone still following this topic probably missed an opportunity for a career in hort research. Personally I'm too ADD for careful research and need to be out there pruning, digging, planting,spraying, etc. every work day to maintain any semblance of sanity. For now I'll settle for the less glorious work of being a research critic, which should keep Brandon energized for months to come.

Here are two more crazy thoughts.

1. Build raised bed boxes around the girdled trees. Mix some Rootone rooting hormone into a paste, brush onto the wound. Now fill the box with good compost / soil mix over top of wound. Walla standard tree in a box.

2. Remove the wounded area with a chainsaw. Drop the top back down on the stump. Huge crazy graft. Bolt it together with 1/2" thick metal straps.

I didn't say they are great ideas, just thoughts.

Eric

Pileing up the soil against the trunks in hopes of getting quick enough rooting to save the trees will fail for the same reason or nearly the same. If the trees are already so damaged that they are doomed they will never be able to generate new root from the trunk to save them. The wood likely will have to dedifferentiate cells to even begin sending out root from the trunk unless they are N. Spy, Cox, or one of the others that maintain root primordia above ground. Even these are unlikely to be able to provide adequate moisture quick enough to make a significant contribution. The primordia are burr knots, by the way, and if your trees lack them where the soil is to be piled up you haven't even a whisper of a chance. If they miraculously managed to root out in time you'd be stuck with a standard sized tree.

Remember that any of the trees that have at least a small bridge of undamaged bark will likely survive.

If you haven't figured it out, this is what you are looking for.

but be careful. See link below.

Eric

If these were my trees I would have done something by now.
If you catch a rabbit well...I'm sure there is a tone more.

Konrad

Perhaps you could post a few pictures.