Steve, I can't remember what persimmons will pollinate Chocolate; you may want to check with the place you ordered it from. I have several varieties and at least one of them is doing it very reliably.

PVNA types can be eaten if not pollinated but my understanding is the flavor is inferior; I think it also may vary from variety to variety how easily they lose their astringency. I have never had an un-pollinated Chocolate to try it with.

Scott

Maru does not produce male flowers and I don't think that Saijo does either, so they can't cross-pollinate. Two PVNA types that do produce male flowers are Gailey and Nishimura Wase, but I don't know if they are any hardier than Chocolate.

I'm finding sources that list Maru as a good pollinator, and others that it needs one (and some that say both-which does not make sense). I think there may be more than one cultivar sold as Maru. Anyone know?

If Maru does produce male flowers, it should pollinate itself and Saijo.

Kiwinut, I have read that Maru is a class of varieties, not a single variety; that could explain the different information.

In general, the information out there on persimmon pollination is surprisingly bad. I should probably look for male flowers to see which tree is producing them, to make sure I don't get rid of that tree. I recently pruned away most of my Great Wall since it was bumping into one of my favorites, Hachiya.

Scott

Stay away from maru or chocolate unless you want all your persimmons full of seeds. I had one branch of chocolate and it made 300 pounds of saijo full of seeds. Saijo or Giombo are plenty good enough.

ah, man! I was all excited: I was set to order...

One 'Saijo' and one zone 6 rated 'Maru'.

I get the 'Maru' as i'll have nothing to pollinate it with as it cant', based on what i see here, be pollinated by the 'Saijo'. If I get another PVNA, i think Wase is hardy, then it will be pollinated, but that's three trees: 'Saijo', 'Maru', and '...Wase'. I read 'Wase' doesn't have a great taste and would only be useful as a pollinator.

****Would I need a pollinator for 'Saijo', or could have the fruit mature without any problems without a pollinator?

Steve, all you need is some male flowers. My impression is different asian persimmon varieties have a different propensity to produce male flowers; they are produced on the same tree as the female flowers. The problem is there is no listing of which varieties are most likely to produce male flowers. I have seen some listed as producing a lot, and some as none, but the literature is mum for most varieties. The list below seems to mention a bit more about pollination than I usually see.

For my own trees I am starting to wonder if it is not my Chocolate that is pollinating itself with its own male flowers. I have a Coffeecake but it has not bloomed yet. I have Saijo and Giombo but from mrtexas' remark above they are not giving pollen. Hachiya also supposedly produces no pollen. I think Great Wall is my only unknown that has been blooming, plus an unknown not-Fuyu variety. I hope it is not Great Wall that is making the male flowers, because I cut down most of that tree a week ago.

Mrtexas, in Japan they even pollinate the Fuyus because they feel they taste better when pollinated. My vote is for seeds.

Scott

Here is a link that might be useful: persimmon info

Hi Scott,

You wrote: "...all you need is some male flowers..."

You mean male flowers for the 'Maru', right? (Not for 'Saijo')

Is that right?

Saijo is all female - it will still fruit without pollination i gather. So, i'll gat (and prune) Gaily for pollination of the 'Maru'.

Should this set up work: Maru, Saijo, Gaily?

Right, it is primarily for the Maru. There are differing opinions on whether male flowers are good for the PCA types - in Japan they like pollination on the PCAs for better flavor and better fruit set, but others such as mrtexas prefer not to have seeds and so would prefer no pollination. I would consider trying a Chocolate instead of Gailey, my Chocolate has taken 0F three years and 02F one year and is still doing fine. I believe it is pollinating all my other persimmons and it will do the Maru as well.

Scott

Scott,

Chocolate produces lots of male flowers, and it is the only kaki persimmon I have that does. All of the fruit had seeds, including Chocolate, so it does pollinate itself.

Chocolate ripened well for me last year, Hachiya barely ripened, and Giombo did not ripen at all. Does your Giombo ripen for you? I'm wondering if it is just too late for my climate, or maybe it was just late because of other factors. Last year was the first year I have had fruit, but they really produced. I thinned them several times, and still lost a branch on Giombo.

Ah, thats good to know, kiwinut! It also jibes with my experience of Chocolate pollination.

Re: ripening, my Giombo has been very slow to fruit - no fruit yet. At some point it died back to just above the graft so that set it back a bunch.

Steve, since kiwnut has also been able to grow Chocolate in 6B that is another indication it may be a good pollinator for you.

Scott

I've grown/tasted at least 15 japanese persimmons, fuyu, ichi jiro, brad sample, saijo, giombo, honan red,suruga, matsumoto wase, etc. The only difference I can tell is that the astringent ones are sweeter when ripe. Giombo and saijo are among the best tasting ones but only by a hair. Yes, there are some completely tasteless ones grown in my area. The named varieties of persimmons I've had all tasted good. I warn again, get a chocolate and you will get a mouthful of seeds in all your persimmons. I did not find chocolate any better than the others. Suit yourself! Also, the birds and squirrels will wise up to the non-astringent fruit and will peck and bite them mercilessly. They leave the astringent ones alone for a long time.

There seem to be several Kaki varieties that produce male flowers. Smith's best, and also Hokkaido - Diospyros kaki Persimmon.Cold hardy in zone 6; has never had freeze damage here in Eastern Kentucky. Hokkaido is a natural dwarf--at 8 years old this tree is only 6 feet tall and 5 feet wide. It is a natural fruit producing male to use as a pollinator for other trees also. Fruit shape is conical.

Bass

Hi Scott, Kiwinut, & MrTexas; et al,

Well, although your Chocolate survived your winter, I think longterm (i'm in my 20s and want the tree to last decades). I would experiment with a Chocolate on the side, but since Maru is said to be the most cold-hardy PVNA variety, I think I should get a Maru, and of course I'll need a third tree to pollinate it (since I'll have a Saijo, Maru, and a pollinator).

1. Can you recommend a male that will pollinate the Siajo and Maru that is appropriate for zone 6 (maybe I'll get the Smith's Best that Bass recommends).

2. Will the male flowers present on this 3rd persimmon tree (undecided one) bloom at the same time as the Saijo and Maru?

3. I really wish I knew that Chocolate would make it, but I'd really be disappointed if it didn't. Could I protect its roots (which I suspect is a myth, especially since the roots are not what needs protection, but everything above the graft). Since it survived 0 F, i'm going to do some online research into just how cold my county has been recorded as getting.

4. Scott: Do you prefer Chocolate that much over Maru?

1. NJ, see Bass' note for some supposedly hardy varieties producing male flowers. I am sure there are more but there just isn't good data out there.

2. I don't think this is ever a problem on persimmons.

3. I don't think you can ever be certain. My Chocolate has done extremely well, I have lost two varieties due to cold which were supposedly hardy yet Chocolate hung on. So did Hachiya even though everyone tells me it is not that hardy.

4. I have never had a Maru, my tree is tiny. BTW since there are many Maru out there I should probably qualify that I have Wye Maru, the one from the Wye plantation. There is a good chance it is different than the one being propagated by Dave Wilson.

Clear as mud, eh? :-)

Scott

My Chocolate, and all my kaki persimmons are grafted high (3.5-4.5 ft) on native persimmon stock. I really think that is the best way to go with kaki in zn 6/7, since the coldest air flows closer to the ground.

Last spring, I had some minor die back on Chocolate, but I can't say for sure that it was due to freeze damage. The lowest temp that winter was 4F. This winter it has hit 2F with several dips into single digits. I took some cuttings off the Chocolate recently, and they seem to be fine, except for some of the really thin wood at the tips. However, there could be damage that won't show up until growth begins.

I don't mind the seeds at all, as I really don't care for eating the persimmons right off the tree, but prefer to process the pulp and freeze it.

Well,

I'm happy here - just started making a move. I picked up a 6' tall 'Saijo' to start with. It was cheap - $50; I would have spent so much more online. As for your experience with the Chocolate (kiwinut), I guess I'll just get one and hope that when my region drops to zone 6A (around 5 bellow 0) - it only suffers die-back. I won't be grafting my own since I don't have access to scion wood or any developed D. virginiana saplings (although I have a lot of seeds I'm getting ready to plant for future grafting purposes), so the one I get will likely not be grafted high above the ground.

If a tree is grafted at, say, 2' above the ground, as the tree matures, does the graft mark actually move vertically (i.e. does the understock portion continue to move upward), so that the effect you aim for (high above the ground) is, in time, acheived?

Hi,

I'm developing an open-pollinated orchard of American persimmons and I want to use the seeds for riparian projects. If I have a number of Asian persimmon varieties, will I have a reasonable risk of having some of the male flowers of the Asian persimmons opening up at the same time that the American persimmon flowers open? I don't mind if the American persimmon's (Northern strain: 90-C) pollinate the Asian persimmons, but I don't want the Asian persimmons to pollinate the American persimmons and cause hybrids to occur.

Maybe if this is a concern, maybe I can select only Asian persimmons that are absolutely unable to produce male flowers, if there are any known not to.

Thanks,
Steve

njbiology...

Trees grow from the top, up. This means if you and your sweetie carve your name 3 feet high into the bark of a 10 foot tall maple and come back years later when the tree is 50 feet, your carving (if still visible) will be located pretty close to that original 3 feet high.

if you are planning on creating an open pollenated orchard of American persimmons, put in a szukis or another male american persimmon. Try to plant Kaki's in a sheltered area which will likely naturally reduce pollen drift and serve to help these plants with the warmer temperatures they seem to prefer. Also, if you really want to prevent hybrids, just don't plant the seed (I'm sure you could easily find someone interested in trading for such possibly hybridized seed anyway...or maybe by then you will have gained a desire to try developing hybrids of the two varieties)

btw...my Ichi Ke Kei Jiro is still doing well up here in Michigan (though there was some dieback which was either due to some cold weather or damage by nearby kids....either way the tree seems to have bounced back pretty well). 4th year, no fruit yet, but it did flower (1) last and (5) this year.

~Chills
zone 6b Michigan