Just a couple of thoughts- what you have is a small commercial-size planting. For a family of 5, two semi-dwarf apple trees would provide all the apples you can use. You need to be thinking about pick-your-own or some other scheme to sell produce,

Organic is a big plus in getting customers and higher prices. But it's not easy. If you go for the certification, you need to write a plan, get it approved, never use any product that's disallowed. There's actually lots more spraying involved, just different less effective "natural" stuff.

Think about a concrete floor processing shed, maybe roadside stand, parking, etc. This really could turn into several part-time jobs (in season).

Or more practically, think about using a few of them for production and let other trees be for scenery. The scenery may increase pest pressure on the chosen few but overall work will be much less.

Kendra,

You are getting so much advice here, it's probably all sounding like static.

But here is one more piece from a person familiar with NE Kansas. In your area, an organic approach will not work with 72 apple trees. I'm just trying to save you a little heartache and frustration. You'll get zero fruit.

Organic is fine for some vegetables and a few fruits, but for 72 apples trees it's a non-starter in your area.

Sometime about mid to late August, if you can, go out and find someone with about 5 (10 is better) unsprayed apple trees. You won't find a single apple that doesn't have a sting from an internal feeding larva, not to mention catfacing, CAR, and several other diseases.

It doesn't mean that you will have to spray all season long. Many people on this forum compromise, spraying early in the season, and thereafter bagging their fruits to protect them for the remainder of the season. The only reason I don't do it is the labor involved. But the approach seems to work.

I believe Don Yellman was the first to popularize bagging on this forum and he says after installing about 1000 bags he goes to bed seeing bags, wakes up seeing bags, and dreams about them in between. I think that's what keeps him up at night :-)

Don't buy any of thes religions, that goes for the anti organic people as well as for the organic people. Best is to read lots of labels, learn about the chemicals and their hazards and benefits, then do what you feel comfortable with. Don't believe statements that say "organic doesn't work in Kansas" because there are people who do it successfully.

The best way to do this is to educate yourself and think for yourself. My personal philosophy is what guides my gardening, your philosophy should guide yours. There isn't one right way. I get harassed by organic diehards because I am not 100% organic. I do what works for me and my family and has a minimal impact to our surroundings. If I had to deal with plum curculio, not sure what I would use.

Hi Axel-
Do you have an organic solution for CAR? I'm not aware of one, though I'd gladly welcome one. In the past, my trees have been devastated by it, and I know Michael357 in KS has as well. How about Scab? You agreed on PC, but how about Coddling moth? I would have recommended (mostly organic) bagging for her to deal with PC & Coddling moth, but with 72 trees, I just don't see it being possible. Also, you still need something to protect the apples before they're big enough to bag. I like to do things organically when I can... nobody like to spray chemicals unnecessarily, but with KS problems like CAR and PC, I just don't know how it's possible. I remember correctly, you're in CA, right? If so, that's a very different growing environment than KS. Warmest regards, -Glenn

But here is one more piece from a person familiar with NE Kansas. In your area, an organic approach will not work with 72 apple trees. I'm just trying to save you a little heartache and frustration. You'll get zero fruit

Text in HTML

What a bunch of hog wash, witch by the way, could be used around your trees.

axle sc,
I agree 100%. For me it's a life style not a religion.

Eric

My advice is to plant an additional 72 apple trees next spring (you're assuming that apple people are sane, which is your first mistake).

Applenut

OK, Eric, I tried being subtle but your cheerful ignorance begins to grate. What do you actually know about growing fruit in climates that aren't a desert during the growing season? Axel also has only grown fruit in the west, I believe, but I respect his general knowledge and his contributions to this forum have always been stellar. He demonstrates the thoughtfulness of an experienced grower who has an understanding of the battle we easterners are in to produce tree fruit.

I've been growing fruit for a living in the East Coast for over 2 decades and in my part of the country it is possible to grow apples organically, just not for a profit because it requires so much more input. Just go over the statistics- something like 3% of the apple industry in NY is organic and I bet those orchards aren't making a penny. Out here some rich city people like to dabble at farming and don't need to make a profit- I suspect they fill most of that 3%. If Olpea says that there is zero organic production in KS I believe him. Anyone who's participated in this forum for long knows how much he contributes here and how careful he is before he submits a comment like that.

I seriously doubt that a good mother and wife who may also have another job can possibly find the time to even grow 72 apple trees using conventional methods, which requires a fraction of the time of growing organic in humid regions-unless maybe those apples are on full dwarfing rootstock which is not how it sounds.

Thank you Harvestman.

Axel,

Just for the sake of clarity, I never said "organics won't work in KS". Please re-read my post. I was very specific about the conditions: 72 apple trees, not 1 apple tree, or even 3 apple trees, because it is conceivable (although very unlikely) that a small isolated planting like 3 apple trees may escape CM and PC. I also said NE KS, not western KS. She probably lives close to St. Joe. I know the area. Furthermore, I was using the term organic in the context of this thread, which means "no-spray". That is the context Eric is using it, and Kendra, like most beginners probably interprets it that way. Sure if Kendra wants to do three times the spraying, a certified organic approach may be possible. But in the context of "no spray" you guys are setting her up for failure.

I'm a fruit nut like you and I inspect others fruit trees every time I get a chance. I've stopped at houses of people I don't even know, and ask to look at their fruit trees, so I know what I'm talking about when I say all her apples will be a mangled mess.

Kendra, don't take my word for it, or anyone elses. This summer go look at some apple trees.

Olpea, my quote wasn't from your post, it was a generalized quote, my point is that organic can be achieved, see Michael phillip's book "The apple grower" written for the East Coast organic gardener. He addresses PC. His book is a better reference than any advice I might dish out.

I am not an organic grower, but I avoid inorganic or organic pesticides because I keep bees as well. I may have to break my own rule this Summer because we now have something much worse than PC: the Japanese drysophilus fly.

But for scab, I find dormant sulphur sprays and serenade sprays during the growing season to be very effective. For coddling moth, a neighborhood wide trap program has worked, along with good orchard hygene, I.e. Discard all fallen fruits asap, removal of obvious infected fruit, and tilling along with dormant oil spray in the winter.

This year I will try clay spray to control drysophilus, I hear it works for pc as well.

olpea,

I re-read your post and now realize you are talking region specific, not organic in general. I do apologize for that.

I'll keep lurking, but I'm now convinced this is not the forum for me.

Ignorance is bliss

Eric

I do get a little taste for what East coast apple growers have to through thanks to the low chill Anna and dorsett golden. They leaf out and boom in January, so for 3 months I get to spray after each rain to avoid scab. I've already had some fireblight this year, and two year old apple foliage is tough to keep scab free. But the late May apple harvest is worth battling the rains.

Kendra: as far as what to do with the apples, why not join the chorus with my wife and urge me to FINALLY get a press built. I plan to press for making sweet and hard ciders, mostly sweet. Sounds like you'll have enough for your family and I can cut the worms out before pressing :)

Oh yes, how big are the trees? I am curious who would spray your trees, with what, when, how and for what? Just being a pessimist and thinking of unsavory characters.

I started with simple cultural controls, proper pruning methods, insecticides and fungicides having been new to fruit culture 6 years ago but not to horticulture. My 15 trees, mostly apples with pear and peach are only 6th leaf to 2nd leaf and easy to manage for just me still. While still able to I decided last year to try employing some different methods to control some pests. The reasons are simple. 1) I don't like spraying especially, not the chemicals, just the act of spraying in the heat. 2) some of my trees are on public ground and it is a good idea to reduce any risks to people when possible 3) experimentation is a hobby 4) I am interested in trying out some of the newer things like Spinosad and Serenade in my system of pest management.

No doubt there is much to learn, lucky for us there is the internet and an enormous amount of information on the subject out there, not all of it is applicable. If you'd like to start researching something on apple diseases, try Cedar Apple Rust, Apple Scab and Fire Blight as those will be of great importance to your trees very soon.

You have probably enough to digest for now, good evening,

Michael

Hello again. Thanks again for all the advice. I got out today to do some more cleaning up, pruning, mulching and I learned more about the apple trees.
As of today, spraying is of a major concern I found a couple of trees with cankers and others that dont look quite healthy at all. I would love to be all organic, but I know that I need to start off with what works well. I hope to find a happy medium. I dont want perfect apples to sell, but I dont want to get rid of diseased trees either. This year will be eye opening to see what I inherited. I took some pictures today and Ill post as soon as I learn how to. I respect the passion on this subject, thats how beginners like me learn thanks!

I have Michael Phillips book on my shelf and consider it very well written and informative but I'd like to point out that he himself does not make his living growing organic apples and he lives where it's so cold there is no PC pressure. His short season probably reduces most pest pressure.

He hypes up his accomplishments about his own orchard a bit, IMO. He's a weekend warrior who runs a sweet cider business while holding another job during the week. The majority of the apples he presses are not from his own orchard and at the time he wrote the edition on my shelf were not organic.

I still consider his book a great contribution to the literature of fruit growing, but it should be read with a bit of skepticism in the face of his idealism. I quote his heading on the back of the cover describing his own orchard, "Welcome to Lost Nation, Where the Impossible Happens Every Day".

On the wood chip vs everything else for mulch:

- Cost. Wood chips are free, including transportation. Manure is typically free but you have to haul it (and shovel it). For 72 trees one needs one or two dump trucks.
I guess that only manure or chips come in those amounts.

- Weed suppression. Wood chips suppresses weeds for two to three years. Manure will eventually encourage or produce weeds within the year, as will straw. Other mulches, like leaves, will make excellent weed dirt.

- Nutrient profile. Wood chips will add modest amounts of N over time, amounts of P sufficient for fertilization, and substantial amounts of K. Manure will have too much N for an orchard.

- Fauna/flora. Wood chips will be fungus dominated, while manure will be bacteria dominated. Fungi are best companions for woody plants.

I too have a copy of Michael Phillip's book, and have enjoyed it quite a bit. But, in his location, he also didn't have to deal with the CAR that we have here in RI and KS. -Glenn

I don't live on the east coast, and I empathize for what you have to deal with. I am curious, are there zero commercial organic apple orchards East of the missisipi?

Seems like there are plenty of organic apple operations on the east coast. It might be worth it to contact them and ask them how they deal with the various pest before throwing in the towel and concluding it can't be done. It probably takes more work, but isn't it worth it to try to make your apples healthier and you orchard a friendlier place. I think best effort is good enough for a home orchard since you don't have to deal with certification.

72 trees sounds like an amazing opportunity, but also a potential nightmare...

Were it me.. I would contact your local extension service and explain your situation. Find out if there is some sort of Audit they can do and tell you what you have and assess the condition of your orchard.... They may also be able to point you towards people who know what you have... An entire orchard of Red Delicious apples isn't particularly appealing to me.... Same thing for Crabs...

A high priority for me would be to immediately try to get rid of obviously diseased, dying, and dead trees and to prune out dead/dying wood on otherwise healthy trees... Diseased and dying trees and dead wood only harbors pests and more disease... and this is how it spreads to your healthy trees... No need to massively stack the deck against yourself starting out... Trying to save a few dying trees also soaks up your efforts and money that should be put towards keeping your healthy trees healthy...

One idea for dying trees is to contact local Woodworking hobby clubs.. They *LOVE* apple wood for woodworking projects... Worm holes and fungus just add to the "Character" too... and you may be able to work out some deal -- where they would cut down/pull out those specific trees in exchange for the wood...

Another idea.. Apple wood makes *EXCELLENT* BBQ and smoker wood too... so if you do have limbs and branches -- use them for the grill! Applewood smoked/grilled Pork is delicious!

That way, you would know that the wood is being put to good use and "Completing the Circle"... not just being dumped in the landfill or burned out on the side of the field...

Thanks

John

Hi Axel-
I will concede that it may be possible to grow an extremely limited number of varieties organically here on the east coast. I have (almost?) done that last year with my William's pride as it is extremely resistant to CAR and scab. I then bag the apples. I cant remember if I gave the WP a quick insecticide spray between petal fall and bagging size to ward off PC/CM. I may not have, and may have just gotten lucky.

But, the difference here is that WP is a disease resistant variety. With Kendras existing orchard, that isnt a possibility at the moment.

Im not aware of any organic orchards in this area, and every time Ive tried to search for an organic solution to CAR, Ive failed. Harvestman Do you know of any organic orchard in your area? (Im guessing not, because otherwise you would have already found out how they do it)

Just for my own knowledge, I believe an organic person would consider bagging to be much more organic that insecticide sprays. But, would you, technically consider it to be truly "organic"? Just curious here.
Thanks,
-Glenn

http://nysipm.cornell.edu/organic_guide/apples.pdf

Cornell has researched this and there are a handful of organic apple growers here. I for one, don't consider the judicious use of even Imidan to be unsafe and the fear of such chemicals to be extremely exaggerated. Imidan breaks down very quickly- especially the spray that hits the ground. We only get a single generation of PC so I rarely spray insecticide after the first week of June. Same with fungicide except to control brown rot.

I already know how the organic growers do it and for some of my customers I offer a synthetic free program based on Surround- 4 sprays a week apart starting at petal fall. That alone works on many varieties here that are not highly CAR and scab susceptible. Pressure isn't as bad here as in hotter climates and only those as susceptible as Macintosh absolutely need fungicide most years.

The commercial organic growers use many sulfur sprays as their fungicide, which is very environmentally disruptive. I'm going try a combination of Biotone and Seranade and see if that is helpful against scab this year.

MSU has also done research and developed a Surround centered organic program. Both programs suggest growing disease resistant varieties.

Harvestman, I use Serenade with great success during the rainy part of the growing season. No scab as a result of spraying. And it's a friendly bacteria that doesn't cause any harm. I am not organic, but I try to use substitutes when they exist. Coddling moth traps have also worked for me, but it has required enlisting the whole neighborhood, they all chip in $$$ wise, and it has worked well, so everyone is happy.

But the drysophilus is going to be another story, it's much worse than PC, making up to 11 generations a year. I may end up having to bag apples this year, or spray. GF 120 is supposed to work.

The pest is already in Washington State, and will work it's way Eastward. It's not a good thing.

I will check out the Michael Phillips book. Ive already started researching diseases and have contacted my local extension service and they are sending me more information.

Ive also been getting rid of any branches that are dead or look bad. The good cut branches already have a home with a local BBQ team and the rotten ones will be part of a bon fire for the boy scouts!

To get organic certified in my area it takes 7 years and lots of $$$ - I personally dont know of any organic certified apple growers in my area, but we do get the organic apple sellers at our local Farmers Market so this year Ill ask!

One of my favorite places to go each Fall is a nearby Apple Cider Mill for the great cider and apple donuts! They also do have organic Apple Cider Vinegar I guess it makes sense to use the not so perfect looking organic apples for vinegar right?

Its a gorgeous day today so Ill get out to do some more pruning. Wish me luck!

Kendra

Glenn, I looked up Serenade for use against CAR, seems to work fine. Take a look at http://www.ipmcenters.org/IPMSymposiumV/posters/068.pdf

Not sure what you can do against PC, that seems like the last frontier. But I heard Koalin clay works for this. I will try it for drysophilus this Summer.

Olpea, I have gotten fruit successfully for several years from an organic regimen on my 200 or so apple trees. My weather here is no easier than Kansas and probably is more challenging. Is it easy? No, it isn't. But it isn't impossible.

That said, for backyard growers outside of the west coast I would only recommend it for extreme devotees. What I do think is not so hard for the average backyard grower is to avoid phosmet and other highly toxic chemicals. My orchard is in a suburban neighborhood with children playing literally feet from my trees. I find that Surround, bagging fruit, mating disruption, and virus sprays (spinosad, CM granulosis) give me pretty reasonable fruits for home use.

At this point I am getting pretty sick of all the CAR I have on a few CAR magnets so I may start using Immunox on my apples.

Michael Philllips' book is a great resource for apple growing, I learned a lot from that book.

Scott

Cornell is very unimpressed with the efficacy of Serenade in our conditions, unfortunately. I'm just hoping that in a lower pressure home orchard situation the results will be better.

I checked the link you mentioned, Axel, and I'm not sure what to make of it. Looks like it was put together by the manufacturer and where it was affective was when used alternately with Flint. You can check out what Cornell has to say about Serenade at the site I gave.

"I guess it makes sense to use the not so perfect looking organic apples for vinegar right?"

Cider is probably the not so perfect apples. Don't believe those that claim you have to use immaculate apples to make good cider.

At the Upick I went to, they say if you pick one you don't want bring it to the front. USDA or FDA rules don't allow you to use drops for cider so if you throw it on the ground it becomes garbage.

I would imagine the vinegar is last year's cider that didn't sell.

If you're planning on selling cider to anyone but your customers direct you have to pasteurize it. That equipment can be quite costly. Your state rules may be even stricter and require you to pasteurize any cider you sell. It's doubtful they totally ignore the feds and don't require pasteurization.

If you're going to be selling you should check on if that Cider Mill contracts either to make your cider or to buy your apples. They probably have UV pasteurization.

"my 200 or so apple trees .... in a suburban neighborhood with children playing literally feet from my trees."

How do you fit 200 apple trees in a suburban yard?

The kids in my neighborhood are already stupid. I little more brain damage from a pyrethroid isn't going to hurt. :)

axel: your link isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for Serenade unless significantly fewer applications are required and/or the cost is lower than for sulfur. In figures 2 and 5, S was better statistically than Serenade. In fig. 4 they were equal. I'd have never thought about using JMS Stylet Oil for CAR.

Thanks for the link.

I'm going to bring it up again because the tables don't seem to match the descriptions of the experiments. Am I getting it wrong? It reads to me that in every experiment besides the Virginia trial either Captan or Flint were used with Serenade but it is not reflected in the tables.

I admit my brain is only functioning at spring level (overloaded). Is this cherry picked research presented by the manufacturer? That's who's presenting it. Cornell has apparently done research that has made them very dismissive of the efficacy of Serenade in East Coast conditions although they generally embrace any environmentally friendly pesticide sollutions including Surround. They suggest that in the West Coast Serenade performs much better.

Hard Apple cider and vinegar are both *Extremely* easy to make -- Contact your local Homebrew clubs for help....

Hard cider is made with Beer yeast -- goes very quickly and easily... requiring few of the gyrations required for making beer...

Vinegar starts out with hard cider, then you introduce a bacterial "Mother of Vinegar" -- (which resembles a slimey blob of snot) that floats in your open-topped bowl of cider... It eats the Alcohol and converts it to Acetic acid...

One caveat is that Good apples make Good cider -- Rotten or diseased or overly buggy apples can lead to weird off-tastes in the cider...

Best of luck with your Orchard.

John

"Hard cider is made with Beer yeast"

Wine yeast is more suitable. I don't know why the BJCP has accepted it as one of their styles. But doing so has too many people treating it like beer instead of the wine that it is.

You can inoculate the cider with natural unpasteurized vinegar from a healthfood store.

Her problem is 72 trees. Unless she's a party animal that's probably too much for personal use and not enough to bother with BATFE regulations on selling alcohol.
And I assume she doesn't have the pressing requirements for 5 trees let alone 72.

Scott,

All my posts on this thread alert Kendra to the dangers of a NO-SPRAY regimen here in KS, not an ORGANIC SPRAY regimen, which involves more sprays and/or bagging. Once again, I NEVER said it was impossible to grow apples certified organically in Kansas.

Kendra I'm no expert on spraying or pests or plants diseases. We have few pests where I live so its not much of an issue most years. However I have found some useful videos on the subject though which I will post. I like many of the members here dream about buying and living on a piece of land with an established orchard or growing our own. I would love to see some pictures and I'm sure everyone else would too.

To post pictures all you need to do is sign up for a free account at photobucket.com

Once you do you can upload your photos. Then highlight the box that says "HTML" and copy it. Then paste it in your post and the picture will be in your post.

These four videos are all posted on youtube by UC Davis Professors who also happen to be authors and are Master Gardeners.

Plant Disease Part I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwQFc78qT0o&feature=channel

Plant Disease Part II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYE4fvimshA

Understanding Pesticides Part I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuSZFRf0EpY&feature=channel

Understanding Pesticides Part II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fny3q2UCwdQ&feature=channel

Hello again,

Wow! So much to learn. I'm not interested in making cider or vinegar, but thanks for the responses. I'm just hoping to get some apples!

My neighbor told me more about the property. The prior neighbors were here about 6 years but it was not them that planted the trees, it was the people before them. As far as she knows, the trees had not been pruned or sprayed for al least 6 years. She remembers apple pickers last Fall, so I know they had some - but from what I can see, the trees need so much pruning and I think I'll even have to get rid of some.

Thisisme - thank you for the picture instructions. I was going crazy looking for instructions on older posts. So here is my first picture. Let me know if you can see it and I'll post more. Thanks for the videos too!

{{gwi:74137}}

Kendra

Picture looks great. A decent small chainsaw, a good ladder, a pickup truck, power sprayer/55 gallon tank, all come to mind.

How many trees per row? Approx spacing? I'd guess you're looking at potential 100 bushels.

Oh, my, those trees are in a serious need of a massive pruning job. I'd recommend going on youtube and finding video tutorials on apple pruning. Seems no attempt at all has been made to train these trees. Normally you have two choices, pyramid shape, or open center shape. I have a mix of both depending on the variety. Given what I see in the picture, I'd recommend open center on most of these trees.

The best advice I can give you is don't be afraid to wack these trees back. They need it badly. The crotch angles are horrible on these trees, far too tight, a lot of them will break under load, hence the need to really cut them back. You'll get the hang of it after you watch some of the videos.

Don't get rid of bad trees, you can prune them back really hard and let them grow back. I've top worked entire trees to new varieties, all that was left after grafting were stumps with little twigs grafted. They all come back.

Another technique that works well is to cut a bad tree to the ground and graft on the suckers. I cut down an entire tree this Winter and grafted the suckers to new varieties. They come back super fast because of the massive root system that wants to push all its energy into the suckers. You will get up to 9 feet of growth in one season.

Axel- I doubt that Kendra knows how to graft (or even wants more varieties).

The advice to wack back hard (more than 1/3 of the wood) right now will stimulate excessive new growth.

There's plenty of work here just cleaning out some of the worst stuff on each tree. Then prune again this Summer, Fall, and next Winter. That's the way I'd do it anyway, not all at once.

When I started this post I had no idea where to even begin. Now at least I know where to start. Thank you for all the advice. I am looking at getting a power sprayer and a chainsaw. We hope to have good weather this weekend.

For those that grow organically, would you please share your regimen? I would love to use as much organic supplies as a can. With kids that will be playing in the backyard it is very important to me. I don't expect the current apple orchard to be any kind of business any time soon.

I took more pictures. 64 alive looking apple trees with many buds. 2 dead looking stumps with growth at bottom. 1 apple tree with "blisters. 1 apple tree with scaly/pealing trunk. I think 2 pear trees. 5 bad looking unknown trees -these may be the peach or nectarine. 9 crabapples?

1) Scaly/pealing trunk. Is this something to worry about?
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2)What is this "blister" - found only on one tree:
{{gwi:74139}}

3) Is this a pear tree?
{{gwi:74140}}

4)These are crabapple trees much taller and located on the north side.
{{gwi:74141}}

5)Found 2 stumps that looked dead but know have growth around them. I've never grafted, I know what it is and would like to give it a try some time - would this be a good experiment?
{{gwi:74142}}

6)The trees run N-S direction on a slight sloping hill. There are 4-5 trees per row W-E direction. Trees are an average of 10 to 15 feet apart.
{{gwi:74143}}

Kendra

I would stay away from the chainsaw unless you're cutting down. It's too easy for people who don't know what they're doing to do the typical flat top hack job with a chain saw in hand.
A good pair of loppers and time.
I just spend hours cleaning up the excessive growth from my nephew's hack job on a single (but large, if it was a modern dwarf it would've been much faster) tree.

To me it looks like only the row directly in front of the camera is terrible for crotch angles. It's hard to judge sizes of the branches but the rest look like you could go through with a pair of hand shears and clean them up.

I see a lot of thinning but not much more.

Nice photo Kendra. Your 1st picture looks like the beginnings of South West injury. To stop this from getting worse paint your tree with a flat white interior latex paint in a 50/50 water to paint ratio. Heres a link if you have any questions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qJtVd2k_lI

With so many trees I would go to a big box store. Tell them what you are doing. Ask them to put a half gallon of interior white flat latex paint in a one gallon bucket. When you get home fill it the rest of the way with water and shake it up and you are ready to go.

Most of your trees look like someone had tried to prune them into a Delayed Open Center form which is fine. However the work on some of them was never completed or they were left to do their own thing and the trees have been neglected for along time. There certainly is a lot of pruning that needs to be done. There is also more than one way to go about it depending on what form you ultimately want the trees to take.

Here is a link that may be helpful but is not directed at older neglected trees. It will however give you some ideas that may be helpful and has good descriptions of each tree form. http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/ag29.html

I see lots of advice and people trying to tell you what you should do. I dont think we are that point yet. There are at least three basic tree forms you should be considering. Each with its own advantages and disadvantages. They all have their merits and only you can decide which one is right for you and your family.

A few things to keep in mind..

You do not have to prune them all the same form.

Even if you decide to train them all to the same form you do not need to do them all at once.

Apples are usually trained to one of three forms. They are "Central Leader" "Open Center" and sometimes "Delayed Open Center"

You should read the descriptions from the link I provided above as I will not be describing them in any detail here. Instead I will give my personal take on what I think are important to the home orchardist and your trees in particular.

Central Leader
Trees trained to this form are tall Christmas tree shaped trees. They have good fruit production. The disadvantage is that they are tall which makes spraying, picking and pruning harder as you will need ladders and long reach pickers. The trees that look like they were left to their own designs from the start may be a good candidate for this form. Not that you cannot train these trees to either of the other two forms but this may be the easiest and quickest form to achieve with these trees. To do this you would start by cutting any dead or diseased wood then move on the crossing branches that rub. After this cut any branches with bad crotch angles then cut any wood that is growing toward the center of the tree. The next step would be to thin out the branches to let in light and air. You dont want to have scaffold branches all attached at the same pint on the trunk. If you can have them spaced vertically on the trunk 6" or more apart and branching off in different directions.

Open Center/Vase
Trees trained to this form have less production than the other two forms. However this form has other advantages. They are much shorter which makes them easy to prune, easy to pick and easy to spray and easy to inspect for diseases and infestations. I see none of your trees pruned to this form. If you were going to change to this form you would have to severely top your trees and you would not get any fruit the first season. With trees the size you have there would be some debate whether you should top them in one radical cut or over two seasons. If you chose this form and the trees are still dormant I think I would go with the more radical approach on the smaller trees. On the larger trees I would cut off all the small twigs and cut the current scaffold branches back severely to like 2-3 out from the trunk. The following year I would cut the trunk at 24"-30" from the ground. If it were me I would do this with the smaller trees in one cut while still dormant. If you chose to do that there is nothing wrong with doing only 1-5 trees the 1st year. That way you can see the results and how the trees respond and learn the pruning steps and how they shape the trees before doing more of them in proceeding years.

Delayed Open Center
The majority of your trees are trained to this form and you may wish to keep this form. If it were me I would keep this form on all the larger trees that are currently in this form. They still need a lot of pruning though. Start by cutting all the dead wood then move on to cutting the crossing branches that are rubbing against other branches or that may rub when it gets windy. Always preferring the larger healthier branches so long as they are not 50% or larger than 50% of the trunks diameter where they are attached. Then move onto cutting water sprouts and any wood growing toward the center of the tree. After this cut any branches that will shade out other branches preferring the branches that have better crotch angles. Then cut out any small branches or wood that is necessary to allow for good air flow and light penetration and you are done.

Remember if you have to cut something because of a bad crotch angle or because its shading out a lower branch or because its diseased it does not mean new branches will not grow to replace them. This is the beauty of pruning. The pruning you do will spur more growth and more branches will grow. Cutting out a bad one will often cause many more to grow and you can then cut off the ones with bad crotch angles or that will rub or shade other branches and keep the best new ones next pruning season. Its all a learning experience and you will get better and faster at it as years go by.

Most of the good videos are on Open Center pruning but there are others.
If you would like I will post some of the better pruning videos I have found if you think you will have time to view them.

If you can afford some quality tools a Silky Gomtaro 300 pruning saw will make quick work of pruning you have to do. Lots of thinning whole branches right to the trunk.

A Bahco Orchard lopper would also come in handy and would last you the rest of your life. For a womans hand I like the smallest of the V series ARS hand pruner, but get the Japanese ceramic stone to sharpen it. It has much harder metal than most pruners and stays sharp for a long time.

I have been pruning mostly apple trees every hour of every work day since about Dec. 15 and those are my tools. Expensive but will probably never need to be replaced, except the saw blade. AMLEONARD.COM is a source.

If you want a little guidance on pruning e-mail me and I'll send you my articles about pruning. There's some ideas you probably won't find elsewhere that might help you sort things out.

Greenhouse Kendra, given the situation, rather than getting different advice from different people on this board, go find an apple farmer nearby and hire him for a day to show you the ropes. That's your safest bet. The Youtube videos are the next best thing in learning how to do it.

Regarding the organic regimen advice you requested, what I recommend is a good sulfur + dormant oil spray while the trees are still ad budding stage. Then, once the trees start blooming, start using a regular regimen of Serenade, mainly after each rain. For the coddling moth control, make sure you till under each tree, and you invest in a box of traps that you deploy after a few days with Sunset temps near 62F.

For PC and apple maggot, your best bet is koalin clay and GF-120. Sticky red lures also work well, Raintree sells them along with bait. But you need to get the sticky stuff in spray cans from your local garden supply.

Not using all the synthetic chemicals implies you will still get some damaged apples, but you are not aiming for commercial production, so it should be good enough. With 72 apple trees, you might want to consider the Japanese approach: thin aggressively and focus on a small crop of a few apples that you can bag to protect. The apples will get giant and they will also be much more delicious. I am talking about no more than 25 apples per tree, so it's manageable, You don't have to do all trees that way, especially if you have processing apples. Those you could thin less aggressively and not bother to protect.

That tree that you think is a pear seems to be a pear in fact.

Very nice piece of property. Looks beautiful. I really hope you like apples! Growing organically will cost you $$$ so you might want to have a method to recoup your costs.

So neither copper or sulfur can control CAR? I just have 3 apples (Sweet 16/Mcintosh/Cortland) and don't plan spraying for CAR this year and am going to risk it. I have sprayed in the past (mycobutanil), but have also read that both Mcintosh/Cortland have some resistance to rust...we will see. The big problem here (everywhere east of the Rockies?) is PC. I'm going with Kaolin spray... i wish there were highly effective traps for these devils! I have 2 young children who run around the yard, so i need to keep it clean for a few years.

Kendra, I was looking over this long string of resposes and I couldn't find what part of Kansas you are in. We have an orchard west of KC with 1,500 trees and I can give you supply sources etc plus any Kansas specific advise you might want. If you're close enough as Axel mentioned I'd be happy to show you our early mistakes and our proper trees as well. That would give you a real hands-on look at what works and what doesn't. My wife and I are both self-employed so our schedules are wide open. Go to wagonwheelorchard dot com and check out our blog too. All our (Suzie and Rick) contact info is there. We have a low or no spray focus - mainly by trial and error. If a tree doesn't perform well we just top work it to something else.

Wow, now there's an offer that should be too good to refuse. Wish I'd had a couple of neighbors like Suzie and Rick when I started growing fruit in the northeast. I had come from S. Cal and new less about growing fruit in high humidity and heat than some of the westcoast contributors on this forum. I spent a few years trying to do it organically and the one thing I learned is that experience in one region doesn't qualify you as expert in growing it in another.

franktank232-
Neither Copper nor Sulfur will do anything for CAR. I have not found McIntosh nor Cortland to be resitant to CAR at all. If it's a bad year for CAR, I think you're going to be in trouble here.

Kendra-
I would take KansasApple up on his generous offer!

-Glenn

Thank you all for all the information!

Kansasapple - thank you for the very generous offer. I will email you and looking so forward to seeing your gorgeous orchard in person!

I've been reading all the links and articles that people in this forum have sent me. You are truly so kind to share your knowledge.