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blackrag

My Small Orchard Troubles...

blackrag
14 years ago

Unfortunately my small orchard did not make it through the winter.

Facts 1st.

Eastern PA-1 hour north of Phila Zone 6A

-Peaches

Planted in the fall, would now be entering their 3rd growing season

3 Elberta Peach

3 Georgia Belle

-Apples

Planted in the fall, would now be entering their 2nd growing season

6 Cortland Apple

3 Idared Apple

For weeks I have been fearing the inevitable but as I began my first pruning exercise I had to face the fact that there was no life left.

Last year the peaches grew with fair vigor, flowered and set fruit in their 2nd season, I left 2 or 3 pieces on each tree which grew to harvest and were edible. The apples flowered in their 1st growing season but did not set fruit.

In mid to late August, my very successful tomato crop (to that point) went brown and died within a week. I also noticed some effect of some browning of leaves on a few ornamentals around the house. I ran up to the orchard and notice some browning of leaves and some shot holes on all my fruit trees. I was done spraying for the season but not knowing what was happening and knowing it wasnÂt insect related, I figured it was fungus related. I gave everything a good shot of Immunox twice in 2 weeks but I obviously did not control whatever the condition was. By mid-September the leaves were gone and since other trees were just beginning to shed some leaves for the fall, I hoped for the best and prepared the area for winter. Mid February I was ready with the Kocide and dormant oil and had spent alot of time educating myself on pruning with the help of this forum. I now have replacement trees on their way and will try again.

Here is my question: Did anyone else experience a blight-type condition in the Mid-East? Harvestman, you arenÂt too far away, did you see any of this? Anyone have any idea of what happened? I should have taken pictures but I was in denial at the time and "noobs" donÂt always do the right thing. I tested the soil last year in several places and the ph wasnÂt to far off. Is it possible to just have unsuitable ground?

A few other observations or tidbits of information- We did have a wet spring, I did recognize car galls in the vicinity and I canÂt say that I timed my Immunox properly since I was just learning about the phenomenon at that time. I also sprayed with Bonide Fruit Spray during the growing season which I have since replaced with a purchase of Imidan. I have Black Walnut trees within 100 feet of the orchard. The area seems to drain off well when it rains and I did keep the trees watered during July & August.

Hopefully I will be better prepared this time around thanks to the contributors on this forum.

Comments (44)

  • northwoodswis
    14 years ago

    Were you careful not to use a sprayer that had been used for weed spray? Might you have sprayed them accidentally with something other than what you thought you were using? It seems odd that everything would have died like that. It doesn't seem like a chemical in the soil would have waited to affect the trees after that long of a period of time, unless the walnut roots reached over there. If it was the walnut trees causing the problem, replanting won't do any good.

  • jellyman
    14 years ago

    Blackrag:

    The same thought occurred to me as to Northwoods; it sounds like herbicide damage. Has either glyphosate or 2,4D ever been in the sprayer you used for Immunox and Bonide? It's amazing how little herbicide is required to damage plants, and separate sprayers should always be used for herbicides and insecticides/fungicides. A rinse with water is not enough. If you also used the same sprayer for a fungicide application on the tomatoes, that would make herbicide damage even more likely.

    It was a miserable year here for tomatoes because of the rain and cool temperatures last summer, but there were no general fungus outbreaks in Northern Virginia, which may be as close to you as downstate New York. If the walnuts are 100 feet away they are a much less likely culprit.

    Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

  • blackrag
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    I have a sprayer for each spray material and my "Round-Up" backpack sprayer isn't even kept in the same shed as the gardening materials. However, I did spray some "Round-up" in the orchard following the post linked below last season but was quite tactical and careful not to get any overspray on the trees or plant material itself. Regardless of my care this might be the answer.

    Thanks for the observation and reading through the long winded post.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Orchard RoundUp Post Last July

  • fruitnut Z7 4500ft SW TX
    14 years ago

    I've sprayed a lot of roundup near all kinds of fruit trees. Only had one case of minor damage. I've also tried to kill various trees with roundup on the leaves. It takes quite a lot to kill a well established tree. The symptoms I remember from roundup are not brown leaves but small deformed leaves.

    Are you sure there isn't another possible herbicide cause? A weed-and-feed on the lawn or drift from another source?

  • thisisme
    14 years ago

    blackrag I just wanted to say thank you for posting this. I bet you are right about the "Round-Up" being the culprit. I lost a large loquat tree to "Round-Up" two years ago. Man I loved that tree and it was the only loquat I had. Not the same as losing everything but as one past president was often heard to say "I feel you pain".

    When using "Round-Up" that wick applicator harvestman mentioned it the other thread may be a better way to go.

  • blackrag
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Hi Fruitnut, the orchard is pretty isolated from other yards including my own. I can't think of any other way a herbicide would be at fault.

    Perhaps many have had success with RoundUp in a mature or older orchard but the young ones could be more susceptible. From a clip in Olpea's post from last summer...(which I probably read or not after I had already ran right out and done it)

    RE: Orchard Rows

    * Posted by olpea zone 6 KS (My Page) on
    Sun, Jul 26, 09 at 20:27
    Blackrag,

    You may be interested, that mature commercial orchards do get some glyphosate overspray on the bark of trees. The older (rough) bark won't translocate enough of the chemical to hurt the tree, IF it's sprayed early in the season. That's why they generally recommend an early to mid-summer cut off point for glyphosate applications. A few weeks ago the IL fruit newsletter mentioned they were past the cut-off point for gyphosate use under trees.

    Glyphosate under young trees is a no no. Heard a story of a guy who sprayed a young peach orchard with glyphosate. Got enough of the chemical on the trunks that it wiped out the whole three year old planting.

    Now Olpea knows 2 guys that murdered their orchard.

  • olpea
    14 years ago

    Hi Blackrag,

    If you've been that careful with Round Up, I don't think that's the culprit. While glyphosate can kill young trees, the chemical has to hit the trunk. I sometimes spray glyphosate under new trees and have never seen any problems.

    You mentioned some of the trees still had leaves in mid Sept. Does that mean just some of the fruit trees lost all their leaves before then, or had all your fruit trees lost their leaves by then?

    Are you sure all your fruit trees are dead? You mention some lost their leaves before Sept. but that wouldn't necessarily mean death. I had a problem with cherry leaf spot last summer, and as I recall, some of the cherry trees lost all their leaves by Sept, but they are starting to leaf out this Spring.

    Allow me to offer a few possibilities with regard to these symptoms.

    Tomatoes- It was well documented last summer the East had a terrible time with late blight (which is generally pretty rare). Everyone from homeowners to commercial growers. The symptoms are just as you describe. The plants just pretty much collapse.

    With regard to browning of the leaves on the fruit trees. Just about any leaf stress can cause browning of the leaves and leaf dieback. Did you notice any shot hole on the leaves of peach? Shot hole will cause some early defoliation, although I must say it is disturbing that it was 100%. Scab can cause early defoliation in apple.

    The Captan component of Bonide can cause leaf damage, but you'd have to spray it pretty heavy and repeatedly to cause problems. Is it possible you mixed it too strongly?

    Some insects can also cause significant leaf problems. Some mites can cause early defoliation. Leaf hoppers can cause hopper burn and some early defoliation. Generally they would not cause the problems you describe, but if you sprayed lots of Bonide, it's possible the carbaryl component caused a mite outbreak which will kill leaves.

    Those are my best guesses. If all your trees really did die, it's quite a puzzle to me.

    I have one other story for you about glyphosate. Last year in Fruit Grower News, one of growers admitted that he accidentally sprayed glyphosate on his fruit trees. Apparently the glyphosate barrel looked very similar to the dormant oil barrel, and he took the chemical out of the wrong barrel. Needless to say, he put a good coat of Round Up on his full sized fruit trees as a dormant spray. He tracked the trees throughout the season, and as I recall, the trees didn't die, but there were some deformed leaves and no crop.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago

    How's the drainage? Rain has been relentless and drowning in a borderline site is certainly possible. No I've never heard of anything like what you've experienced.

  • john_in_sc
    14 years ago

    If you are pruning and the wood is hard and brown inside and the bark doesn't show a little life underneath.. It's Toast...

    But.. I think that a TOTAL kill points more towards some sort of cultural error rather than some sort of natural problem...

    You wouldn't expect the *Whole thing* to be a total loss -- if it was some overspray or residue in a sprayer... you would loose 1 or 2 especially sensitive plants, not ALL...

    Same for Blights -- you may loose the most sensitive variety, but not ALL fruit trees of every different variety..

    Are you sure they didn't get a bunch of Weed-n-Feed fertilizer in:
    Grass clippings from the neighbors used as mulch
    "Helpful" lawn service or neighbor?
    Used wrong bag by mistake -- 10-10-10 weed and feed vs 10-10-10 regular or some such....

    Or.. a bunch of mulch from trees killed by a "Scorched Earth" total killing persistent herbicide or something along those lines...

    Or what happened to Sister in law -- Road crew came along spraying ditches... and sprayed her Fig trees full on with total kill herbicide (Though she told them not to spray that ditch -- she would manually clean it out)... She lost 3 specimen fig trees last year to this...

    That's just my thoughts...

    John

  • Axel
    14 years ago

    There is no pest or fungus capable of browning and killing trees in that short of a period of time. It's definitely roundup, and the question you have to ask is if it's your own doing as in accidentally using a sprayer that had some roundup in it, or it's foul play, as in someone purposefully spraying your crops with roundup. I seriously doubt spraying roundup on weeds around your orchard would have done this.

    I don't mean to promote a view of a hostile world, but I've seen some pretty nasty stuff happen in between neighbors around here. I actually go through quite a bit of trouble to keep good relations with our neighbors, it seems to be a worthwhile investment. Yet I still have one neighbor who hates us because we grow fruit.

  • Michael
    14 years ago

    I'm wondering also about the mix rate of the Bonide product because I once applied malathion to one of the apple trees at 3 Tbsp/gal instead of the label rate of 3 tsp.. Talk about scorched leaves, it showed up vividly 2 days later. Checked my spray notes and realized the wee boo-boo. Enough to make a body appreciate the metric system that much more.

  • blackrag
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Today, I walked through the orchard area and began to trim the branches back on each tree looking for life. Indeed a total kill. IÂm conceding from the replies here that a natural cause would be pretty rare so I will point to human error. I looked back the through the monthly journal I began to keep last year and the only other thing I can point to is a deer repellent I sprayed a few times which is supposedly "listed by the Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI) for use by organic growers". While I canÂt pinpoint what exactly, I must have mistakenly applied something or as suggested by Michael screwed up the mix rate on the Bonide or was overly enthusiastic with something else. I did happen to note some "leaf hole shot" on the peaches around August 15, Tomatos died by August 30, by September 7 all 9 apple trees looked very ill and were dropping leaves quickly. I had sprayed the Bonide every 10-14 days up to about July 15.

    I attempted to take some pictures (link below) but I donÂt know what they might tell someone. I think these trees were dead before winter. Keep in mind that we reportedly received 3-4 inches of rain in the past 3-4 days and there is no standing water on the orchard floor. I am assuming the soil drains fairly well. The peaches were in the ground 2 years, apples 1 year.

    Interestingly enough, I am no stranger to shoveling trees, plants or seeds into dirt and can't remember a loss other than to late frost. This was my first attempt at fruit trees so hopefully I will be more educated and experienced this time around. Thanks to all who took the time...

    One other item of interest. While planting the apples in fall over a year ago, I had an extra that I didn't have a hole prepped for so I stuck in a 5 gal bucket with some dirt, set it in the hedgerow and forgot about it. Lo and behold, I came across it while cleaning some things up last week and it IS alive and has green.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Some Dead Tree Pictures

  • john_in_sc
    14 years ago

    I think from the pix we can see 2-things...

    1. The trees look dead.
    2. Your grass and the weeds look like they are pretty healthy....

    So... What pesticides/fungicides/herbicides/fertilizers do you use that would kill Peaches and Apples and leave Grass growing quite nicely?

    John

  • olpea
    14 years ago

    Blackrag,

    This gets more and more puzzling to me. What is that black stuff around your trees? What worries me is that if you can't find the cause, the result will likely be repeated. I'm at a total loss.

  • marknmt
    14 years ago

    I wonder if Olpea isn't on the right track: did something come in on the mulch around the trees? Did some trees that were about to be chipped get sprayed with glycosphate etc. and end up as your mulch? Is there a layer of Tordon-laced manure under those wood chips?

    Just thoughts- good luck, and keep at it!

    M

  • chills71
    14 years ago

    I'm going to take a guess as well. A different idea. My guess is poor watering, or rather inadequate watering. I've seen that fabric kind of cloth stuff shed water as well as a duck's back, also given that it seems in contact with the soil (even buried) and has bare spots, it is likely acting as a wick and sucking all the water it can out of the soil.

    I can't imagine that you would (even accidentally) use roundup on your plants. Also the weeds would be less healthy had you done something to poison the trees.

    JMHO

    ~Chills

  • ashleysf
    14 years ago

    I was going to point at the landscaper's cloth too. I have a narrow side yard with this kind of fabric installed by the previous owner of the property. 6 fruit trees on that side are puny and disease prone. I am in the process of slowly removing patches of it and adding compost to the soil there. Also why is the mulch black in color?
    And please do not plant your new trees there again before you can find the reason for this happening. It is so sad to see your pictures. I am wondering if there is any kind of soil test you can do to find out? Maybe you should talk to the county extension agent (Master gardener program?) and ask them if they know what is going on?

  • Konrad___far_north
    14 years ago

    It seems the culprit was at ground level damaging the bark first, then
    the tree,...could it be that that black stuff is deadly....it seems
    nothing wants to grow in there, not even a wed..what is that stuff?

    Konrad

  • rdak
    14 years ago

    My guess is the round-up killed them.

    I would use the advice in the link below for planting fruit trees. Basic and more organic.

    I would just use wood chips and tree guards on young trees.

    Ditch the herbicides. Absolutely no need for them in your situation. Same for landscape fabric. Just get out there every month and cut down the ground growth.

    I assume the mulch was black dyed wood mulch? Should be ok but the round up probably killed your trees IMHO.

    Hate to be mean but why in the world are you using round-up in your small orchard?

    You might want to buy a bag of commercial compost (if you don't make your own) and spread one bag around each tree prior to placing the wood mulch.

    You need to read up on planting fruit trees IMHO and take a much more organic approach.

    http://www.acnursery.com/acn_planting.php

  • Beeone
    14 years ago

    Glyphosate seems a rather remote possibility unless the trees were actually sprayed while in leaf, and if they were, they wouldn't have died slowly during Aug. and Sept.--there would have been an immediate hit within the first 10 days after spraying, or if just light contact, there would have been leaves showing damage such as being deformed and white patches during the rest of the summer. Contamination from treated bark mulch seems unlikely, too, as the glyphosate would have had to leach from the bark through the landscape fabric, through the soil, and been picked up by the roots. Given how glyphosate is rapidly bound and degraded in the soil, those chips would have to be dripping wet with undiluted glyphosate and immediately watered in after mulch placement to have any chance to get the chemical to the roots. I guess low grade glyphosate damage could have started the problem, which was then completed by winter kill, but I wouldn't think a light application which didn't kill immediately would leave every single tree dead by spring.

    Konrad notices something I don't recognize but which immediately concerns me. Look at the swollen root flares, cracked and broken bark. That is a lot of damage on small trees and cannot be explained by glyphosate. There was something very wrong at/below the soil surface.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago

    The black stuff on top of the of the fabric looks like black colored wood mulch as commonly sold at the yards around here. The fabric looks like the standard spun (not woven) kind which is pretty permeable and given the weather of last summer I'd say it's impossible that it caused fatal dehydration of every tree. The roots go beyond it anyway.

    I wish these organic true believers didn't feel such a need to proselityze on this forum. Fact based information is so much more useful. I'm not suggesting that most advocates of organic farming fall in this category, including the regular contributors to this forum.

    Spun fabric doesn't excessively shed water when covered with mulch. In some soils woven fabric can be a problem, especially heavier ones.

    I believe the reason glysphosphate is not used after mid-summer is because you want some weed growth before winter to help hold on to soil. Most of the benefit of weed control takes place by mid-summer, even for establishing trees. I consider that to be some pretty exciting information for fruit tree managment, by the way.

    As I understand it, glysphosphate kills plants when the leaves are delivering carbohydrates to the roots which for fruit trees would probably be greatest in mid-spring or after harvest.

    Only stone-fruit are highly susceptable to Roundup damage because they have chlorophyl in the trunks when young, but I agree that this absolutely wasn't the problem because death wouldn't be this sudden and would have the symptoms described by Beeone.

    There are other herbicides if anyone can think of a way they got to the site. I would probably have the soil analyzed for heavy metals before replanting. Could this be the result of contamintation? Maybe a jealous wife and some 2-4D. My wife would sometimes like to strangle all my fruit trees.

    The only times I've killed plants by carelessness is with too much fertilizer- but they were annuals.

  • Scott F Smith
    14 years ago

    I vote for the black mulch as the culprit if it was put on in the mid-summer. If it was put on earlier it would have done its damage earlier so that would rule it out. There are many reasons why the mulch could have been bad. The reason why I wonder so much about the mulch is all that damage by the bases.

    I don't think the trees could have dried out, I am fairly close to you and last summer was one of the less dry summers. That plus your orchard is in a flat area.

    Some longstanding problem in the soil seems unlikely given how well the grass is growing; I would expect it to be spotty and also I would have expected the trees to have done poorly the previous year. Not a soil issue.

    The only other thing left is a spray problem, which could be of many sorts, either "operator error" or a defective beneficial spray you applied. If you are to get new trees I would throw away everything you may have sprayed on them in that period just as a safety measure, even the deer repllant. I would say its OK to replant in the same general area but not too close to that mulch which I would also take away and dispose of and not buy that brand again. This all falls under the better safe than sorry category.

    Scott

  • glenn_russell
    14 years ago

    BlackRag-
    I'm sure this is low on the culprit list, but just out of curiosity... Which deer repellent did you use? I Liquid Fence, Deer Out, and PlantSkyDD, all without ever a hint of a problem. You have my sympathies. -Glenn

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago

    So what material do you think could be in the mulch that could be so destructive? I've had mulches that were damaging to vegetables (it was free from a yard where arborists dumped it) but in all my years I've never even heard of a commercial mulch being lethal to trees. I hang out on a lot of well mulched estates and have friends with very large landscape businesses.

    If it was purchased commercially, presumably there were at least hundreds of yards of the same stuff distributed in his region and cooperative extension would probably have gotten wind of it IMO. If it kills trees, imagine what it would do to herbacious perrenials and annuals in flower beds!

    It is not impossible that there is something in the soil killing the trees that took a couple years that doesn't affect grass the same way, their are herbicides that are fairly species specific, as you know, and other contaminates could be like that.

    This is a tough sleuthing problem. I guess there's a chance that there was a contaminated product as mentioned, but it surprises me for similar reasons as I gave about the mulch theory. If there are any weeds you could try spraying them with any leftover chemicals that you used on the fruit trees.

    Does the soil have any off odors?

  • eskota
    14 years ago

    I don't think anyone's suggested this, but I'd dig one up and examine the roots/planting hole. If these were container trees from Walmart, they really could have droughted out, even after 2 years. Coiled up roots that never established would still be in the pot area, and the potting soil might have dried top to bottom in August heat.

    Just a thought.

  • eskota
    14 years ago

    After looking at the pictures, my opinion is that the roots didn't grow at all in the planting holes, barely supported top growth. Probably was a water issue, new trees need 5 gallons/week at minimum, and some fertilizer when growth commences.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago

    I was corrected on my statement that glysphosphate is not used late in the seasaon at the base of fruit trees because weed control is no longer necessary. Turns out that the rootward flow of carbohydrate starts around July, apparently, making such applications more risky. Didn't see the research , just an extension article by someone who probably would know of what they speak.

  • john_in_sc
    14 years ago

    I would agree on poor roots/watering if it was 1-tree that was stone dead.. but not ALL trees, both apple and peach... Many trees will go dormant in summer if they run out of water... Drop all their leaves, then come back out the next spring after a good winter...

    My current opinion is that you need some Local help here.... Take your trees in with a soil sample or 2 over to your local extension office and find out what is going on.

    Consider planting the bed over with Ryegrass and/or something else to allow a fallow year while you get this sifted out... just in case it is some sort of chemical in the soil...

    Unfortunately, if the culprit is one of your "Garden variety" homeowner type plant use products (Not like motor oil or kerosene or some Pro-licensed use only product..) -- it will probably be long gone, as they are designed to not persist in the environment....

    Hopefully, the local extension office may be able to point out something we just can't see or feel or smell...

    Thanks

    John

  • MrClint
    14 years ago

    Your original post states that you planted these trees in the fall and they were not bare root. Is that a common practice in other locales? The resident orchardists have all posted to this topic and I'm curious why I see no mention of this. Granted this may be normal elsewhere, but not in my neck of the woods. We plant out bare root trees in Jan-Feb. If you run a little late you can plant the trees potted up at the nursery as they begin to bud out. I just can't imagine planting a tree in the fall in a hard freeze locale, but I'm willing to be schooled. :)

    Is it possible that the trees got a really good freeze before they had properly rooted in their holes? Alternatively, perhaps they were root bound in the pots and never established properly before winter.

    The picture of the unrooted tree makes me think that the trees never rooted well -- for whatever reasons. Around here, where it doesn't even get all that cold, you still run the risk of killing/damaging trees if you plant them too late in the year.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago

    Mr. Clint, my entire nursery business is based on fall planting. I even move bare roots routinely in Dec. I think they plug in better than spring planted and I've planted thousands of fruit trees this way, balled, containered and BR and I only have to replace a tree every other year or so.

  • MrClint
    14 years ago

    Very interesting. Without knowing the margins for error that a pro might know, consider planting an orchard in the spring in PA unless you really know what you are doing.

    Penn State seems to have pretty good home orchard info: The Home Fruit Planting - Getting Started. Here's a quote from this link:
    "Time of planting: Dormant fruit trees can be planted in the spring as soon as the ground can be worked without fear of damaging the soil structure. In most parts of Pennsylvania this can occur anytime from March through mid-May. The later the trees are planted, however, the slower they will begin to grow."

    Here's another one Fruit Times Feb 2010:
    "Time of planting: The earlier you plant the better. This allows the tree to establish new roots before the warm weather begins pushing the tree's growth and drawing large reserves of moisture. Fall planting can work for more southern sites in Pennsylvania. However, trees can be lost if the weather is too harsh during the winter, the trees are planted too late to become established, or weather is dry with little moisture. (A note from experience in 2005: We had an extended fall and against my better instinct I planted a few trees at Rock Springs. We lost about 30% of the trees. This was the one and only time I planted trees in the fall in my 26 years at Penn State.)"

    Good luck!

    Here is a link that might be useful: The Fruit Times

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago

    After planting much more difficult to establish trees than immature one or 2 year old whips and feathers in late fall for the last 20 years here, sometimes even further north and even preceding one test winter with temps as low as negative 25 F., I can pretty much assure you that the old cautions about the danger of fall planting are purely bogus.

    If you pursue the literature, the main concern you will find, or at least I found, was of frost heaving (from freeze and thaw cyles), exposing roots in cold regions. The way I counter this is with a thick layer of mulch which commercial growers cannot do or won't do because of the expense.

    Recommendations given from universities are often midlessly sweeping and the advice almost always stems from commercial production methods. I've spent the last 25 years trying to interpret such information and putting it into a home orchard context. I'm sure many contributors to this forum do the same.

    Mr. Clint I guess in your climate you won't get any oppurtunity to test the validity of the guidence you dispence on establishing trees in cold regions. I have found widespread agreement on my observations from other northern growers and not once has anyone brought forth cautionary tales from actual experience when this issue is brought up. Any northern growers want to chime in here?

  • Scott F Smith
    14 years ago

    Mr. Clint, I am pretty close to the poster and around here fall beats spring planting. He is in southern PA so the comment you quote applies (the "it can work in more southern sites in PA").

    Scott

  • olpea
    14 years ago

    RE: Glyphosate

    While this doesn't pertain to the OPs problem because I don't think the trees were killed by glyphosate, there has been a lot of discussion of the herbicide on this thread. So, as a matter of interest, below is a link from Michigan State, discussing gly damage, tranlocation to tree roots, cut-off dates, etc. The article's geared toward commercial production, but has application to homeowners

    Here is a link that might be useful: Glyphosate damage in apple and cherry orchards

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago

    Fall planting can be better much farther north as well. Of course there may be some variables here depending on the quality of the stock being transplanted. My expereince revolves around trees that I dig and replant the same day- still, many others have attested to success with trees ordered from reputable nurseries.

    As far as glysphosphate, once again advice to commercial growers is not completely tailored to the home orchard where we can use a wick-stick and probably use it any time with any species of any age we want. (As long as contact through volitilization doesn't turn out to be a problem. Maybe applications early morn or eve are in order for young stone-fruit).

  • bruce2288
    14 years ago

    Harvestman mentioned other herbicides. Probably not the cause of this but 2-4-D can volitize drift and settle in a different location under correct weather conditions. I have seen this occur over a quarter mile from the application.

  • MrClint
    14 years ago

    Bumping this back up for no other reason than to let it serve as a cautionary tale.

  • john_in_sc
    14 years ago

    I was just reading thru This South Eastern Peach management guide:
    http://www.ent.uga.edu/peach/PeachGuide.pdf

    and thought of you...

    1 thing they mention early on is phytotoxicity of different chemicals at different mixture PH's -- specifically Copper... They mention this is quite active, but quite Phytotoxic at Low PH, and quite inactive, but much less phytotoxic at High PH.... and that Peach is particularly sensitive to it...

    What this translates in simple english is...
    Mix up a batch of Copper fungicide in an acidy concoction... and you can kill all your plants... Mix it up in a Basic concoction.. and you may not get much fungicidal protection out of it...

    They *specifically* mention Shotholing and Browning/defoliation as a symptom of excess copper.... which you also mentioned.... Unfortunately, you may think this is from *FUNGUS* .. and then put MORE copper to it.. which hammers the final nail into the coffin!

    Take a look.

    Thanks

    John

  • Michael
    14 years ago

    John: good eye. I re-re-re-re read my Kocide 2000 label remembeing it states that at pH below 6.5 it can be phytotoxic. I vaguely remember reading about alkaline hydrolysis and several pesticides, copper formulations may have been among them. In addition, the Kocide label states, "Environmental conditions such as extended periods of wet weather, acid rain, etc. which alter the pH of the leaf surface may affect the performance of Kocide 2000 resulting in possible phytotoxicity or loss of effectiveness".

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago

    It is amazing to me how Kocide and oil, essential components of organic fruit production, are so hazardous to the health of trees when combined with common human error.

    The only time I've damaged any trees with a pesticide is with summer oil on pears. I didn't quite understand the wording on the label- something about not applying during "uneven" drying conditions. It would have been more helpful if the wording had been "apply only during good drying conditions". You want the oil to evaporate fairly quickly and I sprayed during a heavy mist.

    I've seen heavy damage on large apple trees from oil applied during frosty conditions. Entire 12" diam. scaffolds were killed. That was done by a big tree company and there is no ambiguity on the label about doing that. Of course, sometimes you can believe that temps are above freezing and be wrong.

  • keepitlow
    14 years ago

    Can't help with advice, just don't know much. Good luck with replanting.

  • john_in_sc
    14 years ago

    It is a learning experience for me too -- our tap water is Acidy... so I gotta go see about a PH meter to make sure I don't wipe out all my little trees when I start spraying this year...

    And.. Oil just seems so simple and foolproof... Who would think you could kill everything so easily...

    I was planning to spray at night -- wind is low, bees and wasps and neighbors are asleep and the Moths and Curcuilos are out in force... but if I gotta have good, fast drying.. I gotta do it in daylight after the dew and fog burns off on a bright, sunny day instead.

    I did some more reading last night, and Arsenic also has similar symptoms... Arsenic Sources: Pressure treated wood (Did you burn some and dump ash under the trees?) Creosote? Rat poison... Especially watch out for fresh, newly purchased PT stakes that you would use to stake up plants....

    I still believe you need to get a tissue and soil sample tested to see what is going on... Copper and Arsenic would probably be persistent in a tissue sample (Maybe in soil too)... Oil won't.

    Thanks

    John

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago

    I don't want to make you too nervous about oil. I've put it down on lots of cloudy days and very early in the morning. The mist was actually wetting the leaves when I ran into trouble.

    When the tree company did that major damage there was probably still frozen dew on the ground. It was not a slight frost, although not nearly cold enough to kill the buds by temps alone.

    The Kocide, which I don't use, looks to require a lot of precision. I wouldn't want to use it without an accurate water pH meter from what I'm reading here. If you're on public water you can probably learn your pH with the right phone call.

  • destin_gardener
    14 years ago

    OK, I am going to throw my 2 cents into the mix...I am in NW Florida, so we don't see the frost heave issues that you northern gardeners see. Nor do we have a real problem with small rodents girdling the trees, as there is usually plenty of green stuff around for them to eat. From the pictures it looks like the soil is a very heavy clay type soil that appears to be water logged most of the time. The damage to the trees looks like some freeze damage as well. The best advice that has been given on this thread is to take a sample of the soil to your county agent and have them test it, so I am going to re-iterate that advice. This will at least give you an idea if there are things that can be done to correct any problems or if it is going to be cost prohibitive to correct.