Wait just a minute here. Florikan's technology may be a step up from Osmocote but independent evaluations are essential. Not just to see how they stand up to other time release products, but also to the more affordable fertigation techniques popular with the industry. I don't think you necessarily need control release if you just provide the right balance of nutrients in daily watering.

What I drew from Dave's testimonial is that putting the blueberries in 3 gallon pots where you have complete control of their environment and give them daily water and the right nutrients you can get much more growth than what I expect when I put a small plant in the ground- acidic soil or not.

If you really want to prove your product, try some other nutrient sources with the same pot culture method.

I don't think you necessarily need control release if you just provide the right balance of nutrients in daily watering.
Keyword here is "need". I may not need it, but certainly desire it over providing the "right balance of nutrients in daily watering". I water and fert weakly,weekly for my container fruit trees and they do fine. Reaching 100 containers pushed the time requirements beyond practical. "Once and your done" Staged-CRF sounds like a pipe dream, but I must love pipes or something.

I agree about independent testing. But regardless of their hype, the SNR product doesn't strike me as revolutionary in it's complexity, it doesn't even seem like new technology to me. It's simply the next logical step in CRF: Providing specific nutrients at the time the plant needs them -- rather than releasing every nutrient simultaneously at some set ratio, over a released schedule (traditional CRF). I'm certainly not as knowledgeable as you, but this is sensible in that it's attempting to mimic what a good gardener would do manually -- at least one who knows his crops nutritional needs over the growth cycle.

Again for ME, if it works great and reduces effort to "once and you're done", I don't care how it stands up to other techniques in the industry that take more effort -- but yes I do care that it is affordable.

Harvestman: What are some of the "more affordable fertigation techniques popular within the industry"? Are they practical for home gardeners? I'm ready for other methods that don't require frequent mixing or hand watering distribution. I thought CRF was the way to go, but I'm all ears. Perhaps nutrient injection into low-flow irrigation?

Cebury -

I had to go back through all my records to find the exact mix I used last year...It was a 16-4-9 Nutricote Total Blend SNR.. This was a trial that they were using and wanted me to try it and see how it would do. I follwed exact application rates at a medium rate. These were 3 gallon pots so that is how I figured the rate.

I talked to Chad keel and he told me that it was a blend similar to the 16-4-9 Total Blend on there site now..

Funny thing happened..Right after I posted here..well within a week or so, the results I sent them(Same as what I posted here) apparently got back to someone in R&D and now they want me to be a be designated as a trial plot for them to try out some new blends. Had to think about it overnight and agreed to do so..No, I do NOT work for them or have any vested interest in the company..Just want to make sure you all understand that...Don't want to be accused of anything..

I'm getting 3 different blends from them..A 16-4-9, 16-4-12. and then a very strong SNR they are blending for me...It seems like it was a 18-8-20, but I'm at work and don't have the email so I may be off a bit. I'm going to third up my field and apply 1/3 on each variety..The stronger blend he wants to wait till the 3rd week of May to apply. I keep up with the results and as I find out things, you all will find out as well...Good and bad..Hows that for honesty...

All the peole I have delt with so far at Florikan have been outstanding in the customer relations area..Very polite and fun to deal with..Very knoweledgable, as I am not about how it all works..You can tell they are passionate about there products..Nice to get that from and AMERICAN company..

More pics??? Jeezers...Yeah right i have sooooo much free time..that's a BIG LOL....
I'll post more when they are fruiting I guess..Be glad when this weather stabilizes some..Looks like I have good fruit set though..
Harvestman -

Not sure if your above post was directed at me or Cebury..
I agree with you 100% that all one probably needs to do to get results like I have so far, is to get the combination of nutrients right, plenty of water' and a good PH value that makes the plants happy and you can duplicate my results to a T, I would think. The ONLY reason I'm doing it this way is to save time and that I'm getting good results..Contrary to what people think, I do NOT have ANY spare time in my life..And anything that makes my work load less is welcome
If anyone can come up with better methods at a cheaper cost and that is less time consuming that what I'm doing now, please tell me...I'll switch in a second...

I'm with you again in that I'll bet that they will not grow as fast in the ground as in pots..Although they are irrigated and mulched heavy and will get the equivelant rate of fertilizer for in ground. Only time will tell. And I'll share that too...

I wish I had time to try other methods and nutrient sources, but I just don't have the time to right now...Wouldn't even know where to start as I wrapped up everything I learned into my method..If someone has a method I'll try it though..Just don't have time to find out what all I would have to get together..

All in all I would say that the method I used to get them to the size they are now was a good decision..I think someone wanting to do a new planting would benifit greatly and probably be ahead 2-3 years by starting them in pots and growing them out at least the first year this way..But time is what makes mature bushes...If someone can develope a method to get them mature quicker then I'm all ears..
I think I have proven though that this is a good way to get started off ahead somewhat..

I'll be real curious to see the results of the test this year..I'll try my best to keep you all posted..

One quick question...Do deer bother Blueberries?? I have a huge herd that have been traveling through nightly since we planted them last fall, but they have not even took one nip at them yet...Are they waiting for the fruit to ripen? Same with the blackberries and raspberries...If they are going to I guess some bottles of pee laying around will do the trick..Works good...Let me know..David.

My interest always goes beyond just quickest easiest recipe for results. I'm totally obsessive abut why something works so I can really make the information my own- in other words tweek it to my own needs.

Dave's production technique is different to me more for the size of his pots than his fertilizer formula, and I would love to know how much that influences the vigor of his plants. Usually a one gallon pot holds the kind of plant Dave started with for at least a year in commercial production.

Potting mix and pots cost a lot more than fertilizer. Blueberries may well respond more to a larger space for roots than most other plants- they certainly behave differently than other plants I grow as far as root growth is concerned. The roots take years to leave the pots when I set the pots in the ground while other plants will send out roots to the surrounding soil in one season.

The near 100% organic matter of Dave's mix may also be an essential component of the rapid growth and the fertilizer may not be nearly as affective in real soil applications.

I agree that for a home grower, using time release is the best option for convenience- although adding a TBS of Miracle Gro to 5 gallons of water, as I do with all water I give my vegetable starts is pretty quick. You could attach one of those hose feeders to water your blueberries with a similar dilute mixture without too much effort.

What I want to know, is how good are Florikans formulations compared with the balance in Mir. Gr. type products. Is it only the precision of the release that makes them better or is the specific balance of nutrients important? I can't take Florikans word on the answer to that question but I'm not quite curious enough to do the research myself.

Harvestman-

I have to go for quick and easy...No time at all extra..I'd love to be able to run many different tests but just don't have time..

I chose 3 gallon pots on the theory that Blueberry roots need more width than depth...The pot size surely didn'y hurt any..Contrict roots and constrict growth..That much I know is certain from growing daylilies in pots for 15 years...We pot up 5,000 annually.

Here is a tip for pots..If you need a large quantity, get them from BWI if they are in your region..I get my 1 gallon pots for 12 cents each..That's only 12.00 dollars per sleeve of 100. The 3 gallons are 47 cents each in quantity of 100 or more. Just thought I'd share that..Now that my Blueberry bushes are planted I have 1,000 3 gallon pots to pot up larger daylilies in..Love that recycling...

I just got done fertilizing the blueberries..I mean just right now..1,000 plants took 2-50 pound bags of fertilizer..I did 1/4 with 16-4-9 180 snr at low rate, 1/4 with the same at medium rate, and 1/4 16-4-12 180 snr at low rate, and 1/4 with the same at medium rate. Did all the potted cuttings from last year with 16-4-12 at high rate..What the hell huh...

Be curious to see how this all pans out..I recorded what went where so as to see if there are any changes...I'll let everyone know as time allows...

I always used miracle grow on my veggie garden with great results as well..

I irrigate the berries and can inject whatever I want into the lines..Pretty cool set up..

As far as Florikan vs. Miracle grow...Not sure whats in MG..Aint that funny ...never really looked...Always bought and used it on there reputation..Sound familiar??? LOL..

Anyway..The way in which Florikan releases is the key..If there is a key at all..They are multicoated with different layers of this nurtrient or that one and at 77 degrees average temp the first coating starts activating the release agents(Must be top secret) and then the next layer after that to release what the plant needs at the corresponding time and so on..Pretty neato stuff if you really read what they do..I think thats probably why it works so much better than alot of fertilizers out there...No bashing now..Just speaking my opinion..

Well of to bed in a bit..Last night of work this week. Everyone have a good weekend...keep your powder dry..

I use compost and my piss in my garden, the Miracle Gro is for my green house.

I've seen rapid vertical growth in blueberries that had their light source threatened. All that had happened is I'd left the grass grow high around the 1ft plants which grew fast. Within severa weeks the blueberries had grown thick, quite well leaved, entirely vertical shoots of well over two feet to stay above the grass heads. Eventually I cut the grass and was left with much bigger plants which went on to keep growing at their normal rate from then on. No fertilizer was added to mine and the plants didn't seem to suffer, it just appeared to beweed like growth the plant was easily capable of if it was needed.

I'm not saying the Florikan isn't doing what you describe but looking at the pictures of how you've set the plants out, could be that competition for light could be partially responsible for rapid growth in yours too.

Dablaw: Thanks for looking through your paperwork/calling to find out the formula. If they told you "this is a custom blend we recently created" then the "16-4-9 Total Blend SNR" doesn't really tell me what it is. I could be wrong, but it's more likely they just handed you their established "16-4-9 Total" and the "16-4-12 SNR" these are both listed in their catalog.

If the link you provided IS the actual one you started with (which it very well may be) that's all I needed to know.

One thing that's missing from this thread is that blueberry fertilization is recommended in the early spring because blueberries have a very short window in which the roots can most effectively absorb N. To me, this blows Florikan's theory of timed release out of the water. The fertilizer may be the best timed release product on the market, but that is immaterial if the roots can't absorb the timed release.

Dave, I certainly don't doubt your success w/ Florikan, but you appear to be very conscientious about a great many factors (i.e. watering plants daily) that may have contributed to the success of the blueberries.

Mootube-

Although I'm sure not dicounting what you say about the competition theory, It's not one I would recommend as nothing needs that much competition IMHO.
The plants you are no doubt talking about being close together are the ones in the pics I have showing them all crowded together..I had the same growth out of one section that had 110 plants in it that were not close together at all...sooooo...

Cebury -

The custom blend I'm referring to was brand new at that time...not at the time of this posting..and the same with the 16-4-12..

Chad Keel told me that the ones I received were not in the online catalog..the 16-4-9 is not a total that I got now...neither is the 16-4-12..Sorry I'm not much help in that area..I'm just getting what they advise...The labels are nothing like the ones on the site...Sorry..But the link is very close to what I'm using and don't think that there is a huge difference...

The 18-8-20 I'm going to apply in mid May I know they don't mix yet for general sale..I am just experimenting right now..When that application is applied I should have all the info in place to see any significant changes over 13 varieties of blueberries, with 5 different application rates, and 3 formulas..
Should be alot of info to process and hopefully I can be able to have a halfway educated discussion after everything I absorb this season..I hope by me being the guinea pig it will save alot of others money and time, as well as making very expensive mistakes..

Olpea -

Here is what I know so far about how Frorikan releases not only N but P and K and the micros...
At 77 degrees(I think I previously said 72-73) the N is released because at 77 degrees they have tested that this is when the greatest need for N starts, followed by a need for P and K with K and the micros being released at a staged(not timed) in unison with the corresponding needs of that particular plant. That is why they not only have the different NPK ratio's but have anywhere from 80-360 day release times..It took me more time than my pea brain can handle to get a grasp on it but finally the bell went off and I had my "Well Duhhh" moment when it finally sunk in.
Florikan is not at all affected by water..The fertilizer I laid down yesterday will be the same on moday after we are experienceing 10 inches of freakin rain..By the way my 1 acre pond is full now..Was dry a week ago...

The concentric coatings and associated release agents are pre-programmed to start at 77 degrees(for what I'm using anyway)..That puts the wheels in motion and from there it's agents start a process and release in stages that are in direct corelation to the plants needs during the year...

What's great about that is that I can lay it down in January if I want to and until thew temps hit an average daytime temp of 77 degrees, it will just lay there..Not getting diluted by rain or affected by the sun or any other factors. What better time than mid winter to fertilize when everyhting else is kinda caught up..I gurantee you that after this season all mine will be done in the winter..I'll just get a longer release time of say 270-360 days instead of 180 days like this year..

That's where I think they have really done there homework..And please..I have no idea if other companies do the same thing..I can't check out all companies..Just know what I am learning and seeing..

If someone else can find a better one to try, then please send me the info and an order form...I'll be glad to use it..

I suggest that if anyone want to try and challenge them or there products to give them a call...Talk to either Chad Keel -Field rep...or Harmon Gilbert Head of R&D...Just be forwarned that these guys arent like me..They know EVERYTHING about there products..So if your going to challenge them..Be prepared...LOL...Olay!!

Nobody ever answered me on the deer question??? Do they browse on BB bushes or the berries???

Olpea:

Hadn't heard what you are saying about bb only effectively taking up N in spring. I can tell you mine respond any time of year that it's warm. If I apply a dilute rate of 21-0-0 or complete water soluable fertilizer, they will respond with new growth within a month. If I keep pushing the fertilizer they will keep growing. It's not that hard to push them into the type of vigorous growth David describes.

Ordinarily I haven't wanted 5-6ft of growth a year, certainly not on bearing plants. But I have no doubt it can be done. I have some small plants that I'm pushing now. I'll report back later. I also have plants that have been in the same 15 gal pots without repotting for 6 years. I'm certain I could double their height from 4ft to 8ft in one year.

Blueberries are not a preferred plant of deer but in heavy pressure years they create havoc by feeding on current season shoots. I haven't observed them feeding on the fruit. Maybe Florikan is working on a time-release deer repellent.

Fruitnut,

I've read that blueberries most effectively absorb N at spring. I can't remember the numbers, but it was something like they can absorb 50% of the N in the springtime, and it goes down to something like 25% absorption in the summer. I can't remember exactly where I read it, but it was some credible publication (MSU or something).

Upon further reflection, I would say this does not negate Florican's theory of timed release, or your multiple application method. All it really means is that the best "bang" for the buck is spring applications, where blueberries take up a higher percentage of the N applied. Which, as I remember now, was the point of the article.

I didn't think they would ot they would have by now I guess..Lots of row crops for them anyway...I don't know if Florikan is working on a deer repellant or not but my two best friends remmington and smith & wesson have a real good one worked out..If that doesn't work I'll send them a meat missle courtesy of PSE..

Oldpea -

The main reason I chose to use the florikan brand was that I could put it on anytime I wanted and basically get the same results if there was enough warm seasonal growing time left for them to grow..
Like I said, from now on I'll be fertilizing in mid winter and be done with it..That's the beauty of this stuff or any other snr out there that will do the same.
It's much easier for me to have a free day in the winter than during the growing season..
I want to share one other find that will be of use as well..Hi Yield brand Grass Killer is safe to use in and around blueberry plants without any harm to them..I sprayed 2 potted ones last year on a 100 degree day and sprayed it full strength and they never stopped growing or showed ill effects from it..
My next test is I'm going to spray some Amine 400 2,4-d on them to see what happens..This is a broadleaf weed killer. I have a feeling it will probably kill the crap out of them, but if they show little or no effects that would be huge...To be able to control grasses and broadleafs early in the season would be great..Maybe already someone knows what works and what doesn't??? If so please share...

Hi all,

After reading all these posts I am a bit confused. I am attempting to plant blueberries as a makeshift hedge. I replaced all the lovely Florida sand with a mix of garden soil, peat, manure, and pine bark. The PH is right at 7.

Do you think using the Epsoma soil acidifier and the vinegar/water trick will lower the PH enough to keep the little guys happy? I'm not too worried about berry production right now but would like some good growth. Everything grows like gangbusters here but you guys have got me worried.

Should I also use some Miracid when I plant?

O.K. I'm baaaacccckkkkkk...The results from the Amine 400 2-4,d was that it killed the blueberry plant I tested DEAD when soaked in it...Again The Hi-Yield brand grass killer for grasses do not have any affect on BB plants..

So nearly been a month now since I last posted..Blueberry bushes look good with the exception of being weighted down so much on youger canes with so many berries..I guess that is one fault of growing them too quick...

All in all things seem to be going well with the test on fertilizer amounts...No real noticable difference in low and medium rates yet or between the 2 blends..

Starting to see some new shoots coming up which is encouraging...The ones I had left over in pots seem to be ahead a bit though, and greener...Alot of that issue is using fresh sawdust instead of aged...I guess as the dust breaks down it's robbing a bit of N but I can't say that it is causing harm...No yellowing or anything, just some reddish color...Some of that could be from the last month or so's cooler temps...Now were in the upper 80's and low 90's andthey are greening up fast so I suspect the cool weather to be the biggest culprit of that...

Looks like I have only lost around a dozen or so plants out of 3.5 acres so thats good too...Never seen so many raspberries and blackberries in my life..They must really like it here..Blueberries are producing well and just starting to ripen...Duke, Hannah's Choice,Draper, and Patriot are the farthest along..

I have to say that out of the 13 varieties I am growing that Patriot seems to be the worst performer overall..They are the only variety out of the 13 that are not growing well and have very few berries..I'll give em a few more years and if they continue to decline or underperform, out the will go...They have the same exact growing conditions as the other 12 varieties I grow...Anyone else notice issues with Patriot??? Hope everyones Blueberries are doing well..

Dave,
i purchased 18 blueberry bushes over a month ago and out of the 6 varieties, i have only encountered problems with the patriots. nothing too serious but annoying non the less. those problems consisted of extreme reddening of the leaves and dropped flower/fruiting buds. i was told the cold was to blame but with the beautiful warm weather here in central nj the patriots have rebounded and are now doing well, but refuse to grow fruiting buds.

in any case, i am new to growing blueberries and i am trying to find a decent fertilizer. in doing so i stumbled on this thread where you mentioned useing 16-4-9 so i searched high and low for the florikan 16-4-9 with no luck. so instead i bought a 50 lb bag of florikan total 17-5-8; thinking if the numbers are close then im good lol. any truth to that? like i said before im new to all of this so mistakes will be made. i am hoping to grow extraordinary blueberry bushes like the ones you have successfully grown so i can start my own u-pick within the next couple of years. if you or anyone els can help alleviate some of my ignorance i would greatly appreciate it. thanks
-Matt

apex:

You don't want fruiting buds on plants purchased one month ago. Many people recommend removing most of the fruit the first year. Blueberries have such a high tendency to overbear while young that I can't disagree.

The wood that the plants are growing now will fruit next year. You won't see prominent fruit buds until next spring but they will be there.

fruitnut:

i appreciate the concern but i think i may have led you to believe my plants are a month old. i purchased my blueberry bushes almost a month an a half ago, to be exact, and from what i was told, they range from 3-4 years of age. the bushes are all about 2'-3' in height and have quite a few clusters of small green blueberries, with the exception of the patriots which are very bushy but lack flower/fruit growth. from what i read online only 1-2yr plants should have their flower/berry buds picked off. there is a chance that i could be mistaken so please correct me if i am wrong.

How big were the pots they came in? If they were at least 3 gallon than you should hope for fruit the first season. Be careful- those potted plants will dry out in a single day when it's as warm as it's been. You can be set back a whole season if they get too dry. Takes a while for potted blueberries to establish roots in the surrounding soil.

Harvestman:

when i purchased the bushes they were in either 2 or 3 gallon containers; definitely not smaller than 2 gallon. and you're right they can dry out fast, but i water them almost every morning except on days when rain is forecast. they are mulched with about 3 inches of small pine nuggets, which helps keep the soil moist a bit longer.

anyone:

i purchased some 17-5-8 time released fertilizer and i was wondering, should just throw the fertilizer onto the soil or mix it in? i know that sounds like a dumb question but would it work the same if i just throw it on there then cover it back up with the pine bark?

Apex - Thanks for the info on the Patriots...Mine are doing exactly the same here in Ky, so this leads me to beleive that it's a variety issue..They were the slowest to grow and thrive compared to the other varieties I grow.

As far as the Florikan Fertilizer..The 17-5-8 should be ok...I'm no expert on this but I'm with your line of thinking that if the numbers are that close it should be ok, especially if it's a SNR...

It needs to be incorporated at least 2" under the mulch or just at the mulch/soil interface to work properly...This is per Chad Keel at Florikan's instructions..But you would be ok to place on the top of the soil then cover with mulch I would think, especially if they are established plants...

Fruitnut - Good to here from you..I agree that rubbing off the fruit buds is best, but I'm wanting to see what the consequences of letting them fully fruit this year will have on subsequent years, and will more and more fertilizer have to be used to offset this stress of putting on fruit so soon.. I hope some of this info will benefit other coming in behind us that are wanting to grow BB plants without as much trial and error.

Harvestman - Good to here from you as well..Your dead on on the watering of potted BB plants..Apex, heed his warning..When it's over 70 degrees potted plants start evaporating moisture and need frequent watering.. Over 85 degrees or more and daily watering is a must..

Apex when I first potted mine up last year I put them in the 3 gallon pots and fertilized and then cover with double ground pine nuggets...Worked great..

Funny thing today..Had a guy stop by when I was outside watering potted daylilies and some of the BB bushes I started from cuttings last year...He told me he lived a few miles down the road and watch our progress daily as he would drive by..He said he couldn't stand it anymore and had to ask where we got BB plants that size and that they must have cost a fortune..
I told him the story, and he ended up wanting some of the left over BB plants I grew and some of the last years cuttings..I think he felt a little more at ease about growing BB plants now, and he left happy..I guess that is the kind of reward that money can't buy...Made me feel good to help someone and make them feel better...

I told him about all the info here on GW in the Fruit and Orchards forum and he says he's going to start digging around here for info..

Anyhow....Back to the salt mines..Breaks over..

Dave, I hope the next time you start some blueberry plants you'll try fertilizing a few with another slow release fertilizer to see how much your results are dependent on the Florikan formula. I'd like to see a comparison to Osmocote at a similar NPK ratio.

Patriot is a smaller plant than many other blueberries. You can expect it to finish 3-5 feet tall. So if your complaint is that it is smaller with the same care, you might reconsider.

Of the 5 varieties I grow, it is the smallest. Most of the cold rated high bush varieties are actually "half bush" size.

Jersey is the only cold rated variety that I have that is an 8 footer.

Patriot usually produces well.

Dave:

I have a few Japanese Haskap plants being delivered in about a week, Tungra and Borealis, and i was wondering what type of soil mix you use to grow yours? also do you use the same florikan fertilizer on the Haskap plants as well? if you have any other helpful tips on growing them that would be great. seems that its kinda hard to get growing info on these plants since they arnt grown much here in the US. i plan on potting them up just like my blueberries. thanks

Harvestman - I'll try some osmocote to do a comparison next time I do cutting..Not sure when that will be..

Oregon - Thanks for the info on the Patriot variety..It just seems that variety is either doing great or dies..No in between with it..Seems very finicky compared to the other 12 varieties I planted..And like I said before the whole field had got the same treatment, so there is no reason, that I can see anyway, there should be an issue...

Apex - I would like to congratulate you on you "Haskap" plants but unfortunately what you are getting is not Japanese Haskap..The hybridizer of those 2 varieties in Canada is using that term very loosely, calling the Japanese Haskap only because the people that head up the japanese haskap market deemed them acceptable enough to be considered "Haskap" The name "Haskap" in my opinion as well as Maxine Thompson's,(Only breeder of true japanese Haskap) should be reserved for plant material consisting of exclusively japanese plant material lines of breeding.

The Canadian people are pushing this, planting hundreds and hundreds of acres of Tundra and Borealis as well as the numbered seedings as well..They are very limited as to what will grow in there prairies and Maxine has found that those that do well in Canada fill the cold hour requirements way to early for the U.S. and will bloom prematurely before any pollinators (bees) are out, thus not getting proper fruitset...Many times they will also break dormancy during warm spells in the winter and start growing then get extreme damage from a weather change again..

They are pushing this market to a fever pitch point and are very apprehensive about anyone developing a market for "Haskap" in the U.S. They have already emailed me, and you can tell by there tone that they are nervous at the idea of someone infringing on there market they thought they had complete control of..

I'm sure if they read this as well that they will email me all hateful again..Oh well..This is the United States Of America, and the last time I looked we have free enterprise here still...

As far as the mix is used on the Haskap I have...I just use some composted leaves, mulch, topsoil and a little fertilizer and thats about it.

Out of the 33 Haskap seedlings I grow, I am getting some real interesting flavors in the berries...Peach, a raspberry blueberry blend,and a few with flavors I just can't relate to anything..Good thing is that Haskap do not need acid soil to thrive, and are very cold tolerant...The true Japanese varieties that we are growing do not break dormancy prematurely either...Good luck with the Tundra and Borealis..Hope they do well for you...

dave:

thanks for the info but is there any way that you will sell me some of those haskap plants??? lol. im just really serious about growing haskap. i'll even go as far as flying all the way to your farm in Kentucky to personally hand you cash for a couple plants! no matter the price. sounds crazy but i feel kinda cheated with the borealis and tundra.

Sorry can't sell haskap plants yet because of an agreement I have with the hybridizer..Maybe in a few year we will have some seedlings selected for propagation for the general marketplace..Just want to make sure that the plant and the berries are top performers and that takes time as you know...

Well it's been nearly a month since an update on the BB tests so here goes...

First I'd like to say that our poundage is as follows as of today:
Blueberries - 2,600 pounds
Blackberries - 4,300 pounds
Raspberries - 920 pounds

I'm very happy with the totals this year, especially since we just planted last year. They more than paid for there selves in one season. That I'm very happy about.

The Blueberry plants averaged 2.6 pounds per plant so far. Not bad for plants a year old..
Blackberry plants blew me away with there pounds so far..

Natchez is hands down the biggest and best tasting blackberry I have ever seen..All the u-pickers went nuts over them..They avearge about 2 or more inches long and an inch to inch and a half wide. 20 of them weigh a pound. I have pics too. I had no idea they were this size when we purchased them.
Ouachita is the sweetest Blackberry and around quarter size or bigger. Very high yeilding.
Triple Crown Blackberry is just now coming in and absolutely loaded with berries. The texture of TC is chewy somewhat but very sweet...Love em..
Nova red raspberry proved to be a good early season red raspberry that has a cool clean taste.
Dormanred raspberry is awesome as a hot weather plant with it just laughing at the 100 degree plus days and high humidities we have been having..The berries are huge and hang in clusters like grapes...Outstanding...

Of all the Blueberries I'd have to say that jersey is sweetest,followed by duke,collins,and draper. For size Hannah's choice,followed by bonus,chandler, and bluecrop with Bluejay good as well..

In the fertilizer test we did here is what I found...
Where we used the high application rate the plants were more vigorous compared to the medium rate. I kind of thought that's how it would be but did this test to see if more was needed to get better results..It seems that the high app rate works best..Lots of ne growth in the field, just as happened in pots last year..I cannot see any ill effects on the plant letting them bear this year heavy..Time will tell with that though..

Out of 1,000 Blueberry plants I have counted 26 that have died..Not too bad of an average I suppose..I'll replant them this fall.
Oh one other thing..I grew a few plants of Kiowa blackberry. They are extremely thorny but had to see if the rumore were true about chicken egg sized berries...The rumors are true..My oldest sons GF pulled one out of there the other day that was bigger than a egg..I took a pic to compare..Oh and they taste good too..Very sweet and small core and seeds for such monster berries..

Hope to hear from all of you..David.

This thread has been very interesting for me. The high growth rates produced by pushing high nitrogen fertilizer explains why so many container grown plants are so susceptible to disease. If I only ate 4 dozen Krispy Kreme doughnuts per day, I would put on weight, but would I be healthy? Using organic plant foods produces plants with slower growth that is less susceptible to disease.

I don't want the fastest growth from my plants, I want ROBUST growth. If you go back to the original question in this thread you can get the point exactly. If CHASGH had been told to use an organic plant food mixture, it would have been almost impossible to damage the plants.

gtippit, sounds like your speaking from religion and not science. pushing growth is just as likely to help fight disease as encourage it, depending on the disease and plant.

in my nursery, I much prefer starting with plants that have been pushed and are very vigorous, not so much for higher survival rates as for accelerating growth and marketability. organic n is identical to synthetic and you can push plants with the organic stuff as well- say your own urine which is about a day from being urea.

i agree that excessive N is often used in ways that encourage disease or early death of plants such as lawns that become more susceptable to fungus problems when pushed with too much N and water and large trees which companies will push fertilizing when they are already of adequate size. trees eventually grow themselves to death and fertilizing them can speed the process. big watery cells with thin walls seem to encourage sucking insects and fungus as well. however, sometimes extra N is said by cornell to help trees outgrow an invasive fungus.

dablaw, congratulations. i'm happy for your success and grateful for the information you've provided here.

As far as my education in biolgy, if you think yours is bigger, I'll take your word for it, 'cause I don't play those games with other men.

You just reinforced the point of my post about nursery container plants and excess fertilizer. You said you don't care so much whether the plant lives or dies after it's sold. You said you only care about getting the biggest plant you can to market as fast as possible. I have wondered for many years why container grown plants often struggle after being put into the ground. With bare root and ball&burlap plants the stress from root loss causes transplants some problems. With container grown nursery plants, there should be no stress, yet they often still struggle after being put into the ground. Nursery growers are putting out large plants the same way that Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds hit homeruns.

When it comes to putting toxic nerve agents on my food before I eat it, I am somewhat religiously against it. For fertilizers I'm not a purist about organic methods. For my tomato plants I use epson salt and a water soluable high phosphate fertilizer for foliar feeding after I start picking ripe tomatoes. Manure on the roots of plants is fine, but I prefer not to have it on the tomato I'm about to eat for dinner. (To paraphrase an old joke, I prefer salt and pepper, but some people same I'm a bit slow.) I spray a dilute solution of these to provide magnesium and phosphorus, which seem to encourage successive blooming on my indeterminate tomato vines.

If you search with Google Scholar for "excess nitrogen plant disease" you will get your choice of scientific studies. Here is an abstract on just one study on the subject.

"This multidisciplinary study examined the effects of nitrogen fertilization on nectarine yield, fruit quality, brown rot and moth pests. Results indicate that excess nitrogen fertilization did not increase fruit yield or improve fruit quality; however, fruit on overfertilized trees were more susceptible to attack from brown rot, peach twig borer and oriental fruit moth."

http://californiaagriculture.ucanr.org/landingpage.cfm?article=ca.v049n04p13&fulltext=yes

The authors of the study are plant patholgy PhDs. Theirs are probably bigger than yours.

In "The Effect of Nitrogen on Disease Development and Gene Expression in Bacterial and Fungal Plant Pathogen" from the European Journal of Plant Pathology, the authors show how it is specifically excess nitrogen in plant tissue that triggers many plant pathogens. Giving plants a diet of high nitrogen fertilizer is like giving your kids a diet of pure sugar. Plants need nitrogen and kids need sugar, but giving too much in either case causes problems.

In addition to it being bad for the plants and the environment, when you are talking about fruits and vegetables, the quality of the produce is reduced. An organically grown home tomato has more taste than one grown using artificial fertilizers that lack all the micro-nutrients the plants need.

One of the most effective tools for feeding plants and suppressing plant pathogens is foliar feeding with compost tea. Unfortunately it does not work very well with blueberries because of the waxy coating of their leaves, especially rabbiteye bushes.

Agriculture researcher tried for years to find any cost effective way to control destructive plant parasitic nematodes. By accident a student at Georgia Tech a few years ago found the best control measure yet. His family ran a shellfish processing facility on the Florida panhandle. Their cartage fees for shrimp and crap shells were expensive, so the student helped his father set up a process to compost the shells and sell the finished compost as high nitrogen plant food. Farmers discovered that when the microbes that fed on the chitin of the shells were put on fields with nematode problems, the microbes began devouring the nematodes, whose bodies are also made up largely of chitin. Prior attempts with almost everything short of thermonuclear weapons had failed to rid infected fields in south Georgia and north Florida.

Of course excess means damaging. What I objected to was your blanket condemnation of quick release fertilizers which have their place. Too much of most things is damaging- that's why it's called excess.

My nursery business is about selling bearing age trees to customers who usually than have me take care of their trees after I install them. These trees are healthy and strong and loss to disease or other issues is very rare. Probably that's why so many of my customers have been with me for well over a decade and I have close to no turnover. Of course, I don't use excess N. in managing any trees.

You sound pretty religious to me or should I say ideological. Your welcome to your beliefs but the way you instantly asserted that I don't care whether my babies live or die indicates more emotion than rational thinking to me.

I wasn't the one who asserted anything about your priorities with plants. You were the one that said, "not so much for higher survival rates as for accelerating growth and marketability."

Truce?

Ummmm...Did I warp to another thread or did i miss something?????

I meant that I didn't expect higher survival rates from plants just because they were juiced. Scrawny trees I get from nurseries that don't push growth generally survive also- but they take me a year or 2 longer to get to marketable size.

I don't think the trees I get that have been pushed, presumably with generous N, are less healthy or more prone to disease.

Sure, truce.

By the way, Dave's using time release N and he's feeding his family with the money from the plants he's pushed with ample N. It's fine to grow food organically but I think what Dave's doing is also quite impressive.

OK guys...Glad you worked out that issue..lol...I'm so dense I guess I totally missed something but I'm leaving it alone..

Harvestman..Good to hear from you and hope your having a productive year...And yes your right...Those plants I pushed paid for themselves in one season with some left over..That was my whole point of pushing them..I din't know how it would all turn out but so far so good..I think just having a good growing year with no late freezes helped alot too, so the plants were able to start growth early and never slow down..
The sawdust mulch at 4-6 inches deep is a key thing for the BB bushes..The surrounding ground is very dry as we have had no rain in weeks...But scrape back the sawdust and the soil has very good moisture content and cool as well..I think that is a must for success...

We had another 60# of Blueberries picked today..I planted them to ripen in succession across the field...The Dukes and Hannah's choice are almost done..Patriot,Draper,Collins and Blueray have another week and they will be done...Northlands and Bluejay are winding up soon too..Bluecrop,Bonus,Chandler,and Jersey still have quite a few green ones left..And Aurora is just coming in..Kinda nice the way ripening progresses across the field..

My opinion on organic is this..I'm impressed with anyone who can grow veggies or any other hort crop without chemicals..
Here is my approach: I use no pestisides what so ever until all the fruit is picked out for the year..The only bug I am having issues with is the Jap beetles..I knew it would be an issue but I just let them have a few berries and there happy..I'll bet between all berries I grow they didn't eat or ruin over 15-20 pounds of fruit..

It would have cost me more in liquid sevin to fight them than I lost in fruit..And I would have had alot of berries rot while waiting the 7-10 days for the sevin to disperse enough to safely harvest..I think this was the right approach for me anyways..Let me know you guys opinion though...

As far as herbicides..I spray poast for grass on the edges or the rows only and ONLY on a dead calm day with my nozzle setting wide open as to not cause mist...I use roundup for other weeds in and around the Blackberry and Raspberry plantings only..Works great with very minimal damage..

All herbicides are applied ONLY around plants that are either done fruiting or between pickings(4-5 days) If the berries are approaching ripeness I don't use anything..I'll just catch up and spray heavier AFTER all the fruit is picked...
I believe this is a very safe approach to handling both issues of insects and grass/weeds. And I still know how to use a hoe and to just pull some weeds as well..

Organic No...All natural...I don't know...Safe, yes..I want people to feel safe eating right from the bush and I will anytime I have pickers in the field..I wouldn't let anyone eat something I wouldn't eat myself..

Just to be clear I hardly have even sprayed at all..Just a little here and there and usually it's a row or a variety that is done fruiting for the season so no harm anyhow..
I haven't sprayed sevin yet anywhere but will in a few weeks when all fruiting is done on a whole variety.

BTW Harvestman..I got me some Osmocote that I found in a cabinet and will do a somewhat controlled comparison next season to see what happens..

I pulled a soil sample last week and I'm still at 4.8-5.4 avearge over the field..It has now been somewhat over a year since the elemental sulfur application..

Thhis has sure been an enjoyable discussion and at 135 followups has to a record huh?
Can't wait to total up the results from pounds produced and health or the plants come sept or so..Be a good long post about that...I really hope this helps someone not go through as many growing pains as I have..Later Taters,David.

Had a few minutes on break to offer up a little more info...

I did a application rate trial and here is what the results were in a nutshell..I will post exact results later when I'm home and have my records, but basically here is what I found..

I used two different Florikan Staged Release Fertilizers for this test..16-4-9 and 18-4-12.

The 16-4-9 and 18-4-12 had results that were indistinguishable..The difference was in the application rates.

I applied low and medium rates on all 13 varieties we grow.

The low rates were not enough to sustain the plants and 30-45 days after applied, the plants started showing signs of nitrogen deficiency. The medium rate application stayed with the plants and is still making them perform well. Good green foliage, pleanty of new growth, and were able to thrive during peak berry production periods and still maintain a healthy plant..

Like I said I'll post all 13 varieties with detailed rates if there is enough interest here to warrant it..If not I won't bother..I'm passing all this info along to Florikan, as they were wanting to know if growers noth and south of me would need low or medium rates, as well as what I would need here..

They are going to take all this info and try to tweak there applications for BB..Kind of shocked me when they said that if growers could get by with a more cost effective low rate then that would be great...I thought they were in the trade to make money by selling lots of fertilizers...And they are, but they all seem to genuinely care about all of our successes..Kind of rare these days to find a company that cares..

The only Blueberries I have now are Aurora..What great berries..Huge and tasty..Can't wait till they are mature plants..

Triple Crown Blackberries are in right now and man oh man are they sweet and tasty...I'm very impressed with them..I picked 10, 5 quart buckets of them this morning..It only took me a little over an hour to do so...

The flavor of TC when you eat it fills your whole mouth and sinuses with a super sweet, one day away from fruity wine kind of taste, that will knock your socks off...

Lastly the Kiowa's, although thorny, are the freakiest large Blackberries I have ever seen..I took some pics and I'll post em on my site as time allows..Big as a chicken egg?? Yes they are...

Fruitnut,Harvestman...How are all ya'll doing???

Dave, I need a deeper well. We are having drought here for the first time in what seems like a decade. My blueberry plants (except those in pots) have not gotten any supplementary water of significance for over a month but are holding up and supplying the most highly flavored fruit in memory.

Last year fruit was bland because of continuous rain and cool for 2/3s of summer. Early plum (Methely and Early Majic) are also very highly flavored but cots have been a bit dry. Raspberries amazing as I'm sure will be the blacks when they ripen.

I'm still waiting for your comparison to Osmocote. I'm inclined to think that your secret is large pots, lots of water and plenty of available N but that the brand may not be as important as you think. Prove me wrong again!

Ok...Now that the app rate for fertilizer is over I re-fertilized to bring all the plants up to speed together..I have a question on a few varieties that I'm growing that are just not doing well..I'd like to know if anyone else knows if these bb varieties are more difficult to grow..Keep in mind I grow 13 varieties..

1st is Patroit...Aweful..Didn't perform that well in pots before planting and really has suffered in the ground. Leaves are constantly a red tinge and just lagging along..Had several die.

2cd is Collins...Although not suffering as much as Patriot, it's a close second..Not as many red leaves but the smaller ones are really struggling..

3rd is Bonus..This one was one that I got from another vender last fall and was small in 1 gallon pots along with several others...It was nice and bushy though, and healthy green and now the whole row is turning reddish and suffering..

Keep in mind that all are treated the same way except for the fertilizer test but ironically these that are suffering received avearge, not low rates...

If you read this post you know that the whole field was treated the same, so that's not an issue or they would all be suffering..Rows of other varieties on both sides are thriving with tons of new growth and good green foliage..

The only thing I'm thinking is that the month of June was near or above 100 degrees almost every day, and no rain, although we irrigate...All have 4+ inches of sawdust..All applied the same way and the same type of sawdust..So if the sawdust was an issue depleting N from the plants, they would all have the same symptoms I would think.

The heat is the only factor I can see playing a role here..If someone sees something I'm not please speak up..

Soil test on every row provided a consistent 4.8-5.4 average.
I'm thinking that there just must be some varieties that will not tolerate a Ky. summer..Should I just accept this and replant with one of the other 10 varieties that are thriving...

I chose the varieties I grow for hardiness and different berry qualities, as well as ripening times so I could stagger ripening times to have berries most of the summer...

This is how I planted to ripen across the field...

Duke - 2 rows
Hannah's Choice - 1 row
Patriot - 2 rows
Collins - 1 row
Blueray - 2 rows
Draper - 1 row
Bluejay - 2 rows
Bluecrop - 3 rows
Bonus - 1 row
Chandler - 1 row
Jersey - 2 rows
Aurora - 2 rows

Anyone got any ideas??? Harvestman, Fruitnut???

I won't mess around with subpar varieties. The only question is what to replace them with. If you are happy with some of the others, plant more of them. Otherwise try something new. I grew up in northern Illinois so think all of KY must have mild winters. Probably not true.

Have you considered some of the southern highbush? That's what I have and find them very vigorous, easy to grow, and very productive. Might not be hardy for you but I really like Star and Southmoon. Reveille is known for high eating quality. Bluecrisp and Sweetcrisp are supposed to be extra crisp and highly sought by consumers. Emerald and Jewel are very high in yield.

Have you thought of a test block? Three to four plants each of many varieties. Plant most of the weak growers back to what's working and one row to some new stuff.

I could be wrong but I think the southern highbush will outgrow the northern by a big margin. Just don't know how hardy they are in your area.

So are Patriot, Collins, and Bonus a sub par plant for our climate here in west ky? We get up to 110 degrees plus in the summer and down to -10+ in the winter..Very volitile here...Like I said all the other 10 varieties are growing great..I'm really inclined to think it's just a heat issue and those that are suffering are not as hardy..Let me know what you think and thanks for the input through this whole topic of discussion..

I hope this goes down as a what to do and what not to do from experience in the field from all of us so others can plan better without the trial and error.

dablaw, You said "I irrigate the berries and can inject whatever I want into the lines". What kind of fertigation system do you use?

Well...I'm Baaackkkkk...LOL..Just had a few minutes and thought I would revive this post again as it seems like there have been alot of blueberry questions in the last few months that I think we probably hit on in here somewhere surely....

Learned alot this year as it was my first full year to have plants in the ground..I have to slap myself to realize that it was only a year ago that we planted in the ground...All but 3 of the 13 varieties we grew did well..

Bonus,Collins,and Patriot absolutely hated it here this year..They will be replaced.

Really paid close attention to the plants over the course of the year to let them tell me what they needed....Most of them grew without anything special, other than fertilizing and watering..I can tell you that the deep sawdust mulch carried us through the EXTREMELY HOT summer and drought we have had all year...Kept the ground evenly moist and constant temp very well...

When you have heat hot enough and long enough to boil the sap and split trees, then it's a good test to weed out the weak....

Although I didn't get quite the growth I did in pots, I still got very good growth..I pruned only once this time though compared to last summers 3 times or so in the pots...

The results now are good, very stocky plants with a good foundation under them..The berry quality was excellent this summer and I can't wait to see how they produce next year...

Well that's it for now..Hopefully a few will keep adding to this post..

Dave, good to hear from you, and I'm glad you survived the hot dry one. Someday I hope to experience a "normal" growing season before I die.

Maybe you should start a new thread so new participants don't have to go through 120 postings. You could even summarize the course of the discussion if you get a few moments because I think that maybe 10% of the dialogue would be very useful to blueberry lovers. You'd have to be a little crazy to read through the whole thing at this point, I think.

For blueberries....Ammonium Sulfate is best.
I also find that Potassium Nitrate benefits ALL fruit crops in a positive way. It is quickly absorbed and induces a bigger fruit size in all fruit trees and shrubs.

Wow...this is a big thread.

Quick question does it matter if the vinegar is white or red?
also what about if it is 6% acid instead of 5% ??
good to go?
how long are the effects for?

Yes, it matters, because white vinegar is much much cheaper than red, especially if you buy it in gallons. Cheaper is better when the results are the same.

For stronger vinegar, dilute it a bit more.

If you are growing blueberries, best to test the pH occasionally. That will tell you when you need to add more vinegar.

Very nice thread. I have recently purchased a farm with about a 3 acre plot of blueberries. Much in need of pruning, mulching, rejuvenation, replacement planting, drip irrigation repair, pigweed infestation solution, etc. Not a young man either at 59.

So how are all of you applying fertilizer? Broadcasting by machine or by hand? We have started putting on ammonium sulphate as the soil test reveals much of the planting to be high PH and even the parts that are thriving are near the top of the desireable range (4.5-5.2) We have been applying it in little 4 oz (8 tablespoon) cups and dusting it all around the drip line of the plants. Doesn't take too many hours of that to make fertilizing a 2400 plant field something you feel in your back at night!

I am also curious about those of you who are using a blend like 12-12-12 or something similar with regard to the potassium. Most things I have said say to avoid putting Pottasium chloride on blueberries, and to use potassium sulphate instead. The problem is I can't seem to find a blend that does not use potassium chloride or some derivative of muriate of potash. Maybe it doesn't really matter as I know actual blueberry farmers who seem to put on 10-10-10 that only contains K2O (chloride form) and even the Florikan label says it contains potassium chloride.