The program I have is for the Northeast and not the mid-Atlantic but I bet those two sprays would prevent scab and cedar apple rust there- scab is not supposed to be so bad further south anyway.

Scott is in your area and has major problems with Oriental fruit moth which does extend the insecticide spray season for stone fruit at least- also coddling moth can go on longer as well as can plum curculio if it has a second generation.

The only way to find out what you can get away with at any given site is to risk your first crop a bit and keep your eyes open.

If you are inland at a higher elevation site you will probably need fewer sprays and possibly be in a similar position as folks up here with fruit pests.

In my schedule I did mention the strong possibility of needing Monterey Fungus Fighter to stop brown rot from destroying stonefruit- probably at least a single application about a month before fruit ripens and possibly a second two weeks later.

I am in Zone central MN.

Based on info I got on this forum I went with a 3 spray program:

1. immunox before the bloom.
2. Triazicide "Once and Done" after petal fall.
3. 2nd app of Triazicide about 1 month later.

I had to find the above products on the internet; they were not available locally.

this approach has been successful on my apples for 2 years in a row. I had ZERO bugs or fungus.

my plums don't seem to need any spraying.

oldryder, the reason you have no issues with scab or CAR probably has nothing to do with your spray program. Pressure on the fruit comes after petal fall and I doubt a single early spray would eliminate the problem.

Many varieties are not that susceptible to these fungus issues- depending also on the pressure of a specific site. I don't absolutely need any fungicide for my apples at my own site and even susceptible varieties never see much damage here but at other sites in my area it is a different story.

I assume when Scott talks about his pest issues he speaks broadly of what will happen because he knows of other nearby sites that suffer similar issues to what happens in his own orchard.

Here I'm surprised by the range of variability for many pests from site to site. Plum curculio does seem to get most everywhere, however.

Thanks folks!

Scott - how many generations of PC and OFM do we get down here?

Also are your organic controls the pheromone disruptors I've heard you mention before? Where do you get them?

Bart, I have heard 4-5 generations. I sometimes have problems with a resurgence in July or Aug from these later generations.

The pheromone disruptors are hard to source. My source is no longer able to sell out of state but fortunately I socked away a 5-year supply. Gemplers sells to states nearby. The whole problem is they are regulated like a pesticide and many states have no big pressure to approve them so they don't.

Scott

Thanks Scott!

Don't know if you can answer this, but........

If you were spraying nasty stuff (like Imidan) for bugs, how many sprays would you do? For the last few years I've been starting at petal fall and continuing every 2 weeks for most of the season. I'd then switch to something a little less nasty with a shorter PHI.

Do you think that's too much spraying?

Last year I cut back to only a couple of sprays and ended up losing most of my fruit to rots. (obviously that's a different problem than bug damage, but I cut back spraying everything and ended up losing almost everything!)

The ultimate goal of course is to spray pesticides/fungicides as little as possible and still get fruit, but so far, I think I've gone way overboard, or way underboard!

Scott, I respect that- it is the reason I consider your opinions so valuable, particularly for growers in your region. If you start off with the strategy of taking no chances, not relying on any kind of monitoring, always working proactively you'll be spraying most every week of the growing season.

I would recommend downloading the publication from Purdue University, "Managing Pests in Home Fruit Plantings" from their Education Store web site. It is a free download of 34 pages and covers multiple fruit trees, development stages with beautiful photos and spray guides for each of the various fruit types. It includes apple, pear, peach, plum, grape, strawberry and raspberry, giving you cultural and chemical controls that include both conventional and organic controls. Hope this helps someone!

Here is a link that might be useful: Managing Pests in Home Fruit Plantings

Bart, others would have a better answer for how much Imidan to spray, but if I were using it I would start out with say three sprays. I used to use spinosad only and with 4-5 sprays I did OK, and Imidan is a lot more potent. One good thing about moths is its a sliding scale, you don't need all perfect fruit to be happy. I get something like 90% perfect which is "perfect" for me! Curculio is a different matter, if you have bad timing it can wipe you out. I am going to rush out and spray my Surround the instant the current rain ends because the curc is going to wake up and go at it big time.

Orchardkeeper, that Purdue document has some good stuff in it. The spray schedule is a good initial guide but has more sprays than you need. It is similar to a full commercial program in terms of numbers of sprays. They also recommend the multi-purpose fruit sprays which are usually not containing the best compounds.

Scott

I typically do not recommend MPFS type products since most contain Carbaryl (1-naphthyl methylcarbamate) and Malathion which is an organophosphate insecticide. Imidan, which contains Phosmet, is an organophosphate that is a Class II toxin and very toxic to bees, as is carbaryl and Malathion.

Where you live will determine the number of sprays necessary to have acceptable fruit. Spraying should always be your last resort and when you have to spray, choose the least toxic products to humans and bees. Determine your own threshhold as to how much damage you are willing to accept and work from there. In a area such as the Midwest, Northeast and other parts of the country that have apple scab and fire blight, regular sprays are necessary to have any acceptable fruit. Apple scab sprays need to begin as soon as green tip is present and continued through 1st cover. Captan, a protectant against scab, is generally recommended and should be sprayed every 7 days.

Acetamiprid is a good alternative to Imidan, as is Spinosad or BT. Acetomiprid is in the Cyano group of neonicotinoids which exhibit lower toxicity to bees than nitro group neonicotinoids. the Cyano group has a half soil life of from 1 to 27 days with acetomiprid having a half soil life of 1 to 8 days. The nitro-substituted compounds (clothianidin, dinotefuran, imidacloprid and its metabolites, thiamethoxam, nitenpyram) appear the most toxic and I never use these. Many lethal and sublethal effects of neonicotinoid insecticides on bees have been described in laboratory studies, however, no effects were observed in field studies with field-realistic dosages despite what the media may be portraying. They are much, much safer than organophosphates. The newer and safer neonicotinoids, e.g. using the cyano-group instead of the nitro-group, are good examples of the development of environmentally safer compounds.

Here is a link that might be useful: Neonicotinoids in bees: a review on concentrations, side-effects and risk assessment

Orchard Keeper, I believe you are flat out wrong about controlling scab, based on 25 years managing plenty of Macintosh and other highly susceptible varieties at what is currently about 100 orchards in a 100 mile radius of where I live in southern NY- scab city

Perhaps your expertise comes from managing apples in a commercial scale- mine comes from home and estate orchards ranging from just a few trees to a small commercial stand of only 10 acres.
I can generally control scab and CAR with only 2 applications of a tank mix of Captan and myclobutanil starting at petal fall and never use more than 3 - the third applied at delayed dormant with oil.

I also believe that choosing materials is more complex than you make it out to be. Imidan, properly used, is not demonstrably dangerous, IMO- particularly in the scale that is used in a small orchard

Neonicinoids are not very affective against plum curculio- so you can scratch them when choosing a primary insecticide in much of the country. Pyrethroids kill friend and foe alike, creating possible mite and scale outbreaks. They are still the most practical for most home growers- relatively non-toxic to mammals, cheap, easy to mix and available.

However, Imidan is soft on predatory mites and some other beneficials, it also has the benefit of some kickback, unlike the pyrethroids and most neonicinoids. The main problem with it for home growers is the powder is messy and you can't use the immersible packets they are packaged in in a home orchard scale application. It also comes packaged in only commercial quantities- probably the most dangerous aspect for home-owners to use it. It will need to be safely stored for decades and what happens to quantities that somehow are not used?

I wish when folks call a pesticide dangerous they'd say how and why. With Imidan, I believe the primary human danger is when workers are active around sprayed plants. Any contact with the plants will spread the pesticide where it doesn't need to be for as long as the pesticide is active.

Most folks with home orchards don't even have European bees in the mix anymore. In the years I used Imidan in my own orchard my native bees never seemed to suffer in any way that diminished their populations. There have always been plenty to pollinate my crops and enough to fight for every grain of pollen.

Hi Dennis,

You and I used to correspond years ago on Nafex. Hope you are doing well. I read about your ordeal with your leg on your blog. I hope your leg has recovered.

You mentioned field studies on neonics. Have you seen this Webinar about the field study of the neonic clothianidin seed treatments on bees?

http://www.extension.org/pages/63369/protecting-honey-bees-during-corn-and-soybean-planting-season

I agree acetamiprid is a good tool and is rightly classified as a reduced risk pesticide in my opinion. As you imply, it's unfortunate the Cyano nics sometimes get thrown in with the Nitro nics.

Like Hman, I don't use acetamiprid for PC. I don't think it's efficacy is as high as some of the pyrethroids (and of course not as high as phosmet) for PC, but I use it for OFM and stink bug. I mostly use a pyrethroid for PC (I know you being an apple grower, don't like pyrethroids because of mite flares, but I use it mostly for peaches, so not an issue for me).

BTW, you might be interested to know that you and Hman know each other from Nafex correspondence too (as well as some others on this forum) but I'll let him introduce himself if he wants.

I know you've done a lot in education and promotion of IPM. Hman is a licensed commercial applicator. I have a private license.

Spray regimens have been debated widely on this forum, so don't be surprised at a little push back. Actually this forum has some extremely intensive home fruit growers, who would rate as knowledgeable (sometimes more so) than many fruit extension personnel with regard to growing backyard fruit, IMO.

That's because the dynamics of back yard fruit production can be so different from commercial production extension personnel are so accustomed to, as I'm sure you are aware. I can attest to this starting with a backyard orchard, then planting a small commercial orchard a few years ago.

Still, as you know, there are many good lessons from the commercial venue, which cross over (in full, or in part) to the backyard.

Hope you're able to continue posting here. I would welcome the dialog.

Mark

Harvestman, in July of 2006, the EPA began it's phase out of organophosphates. The Wisconsin Apple Growers Association, four grower networks, one consultant, NRCS and UW researchers worked with CIAS to develop a production approach that reduces grower reliance on high-risk pesticides. These older pesticides, particularly Guthion and Imidan, are targeted for phase-out and reduction, respectively, as the EPA administers the federal Food Quality Protection Act. I am in one of those networks.

We have obviously had very different experiences with pest management and I wish we could get by with only a few scab sprays. I have had differing experiences with homeowners in northern Illinois with scab where some have not had to spray at all and others on a weekly basis. If we did not spray before or during an infection period, we would lose nearly 50% of our crop. But, we have 16,000 trees over 120 acres in a u-pick orchard rather than just a few or a couple of acres in a ho,e orchard.

If homeowners keep all of their leaves either raked up and burned or raked up and chopped up, they may not even have a scab issue at all. Since scab develops as lesions on the leaves and overwinters on those leaves that have yellowed and fallen to the ground, this is the first step to control scab with just a few trees to protect. Again, the amount one needs to spray for any pest is based on the amount of damage they are willing to absorb. For our orchard, it is a safety and economic decision, but for the average home grower or small orchard it tends to be more of a safety issue; ergo fewer sprays tend to rule the day.

Sure wish we could get by with just two scab sprays a season! The least we have ever sprayed is 4 times and the most is 7. We have a weather station that transmits temp, rain, wind, humidity, etc. to our IPM computer and also monitors our leaf wetness. Scab infections are based on how long the tree leaves stay wet. We use disease model software that takes the data from the weather station and uses the Mills Table, the Washington State and the Cornell models for scab, the hour the infections occurs and the total amount of rainfall since the last infection period to give us the time we have infection periods. For every 1" of rain you get you lose 2 days of efficacy (the ability of the product to have its intended effect). If a product has an efficacy of 7 to 10 days and one gets 2" of rain within that time period, the effectiveness of that product drops from 7 to 10 days down to 3 to 6 days. With more rain the number of times one needs to spray may increase, depending on temperatures. Our models take all this into consideration. We are currently in a scab infection period which began at 8:00 AM on April 29 and has continued for over 30 hours due to nearly constant rain and temperatures in the mid to high 40's. The longer the leaves stay wet, even at cooler temps, the greater the risk of an infection. We did our first scab spray last Friday, April 25 at 8:00 AM through 4:00 PM when the trees were at green tip. The times are important because some products have what is called a reach back or kick back effect that means they will stop scab up to 48 to 96 hours after an infection period begins. So we can follow our scab model infection periods, use a protectant and an irradicant with reach back of 48 hours or more and only spray when there are infection periods. Problem is, some years we may have only a few infection periods and some years we can have many!

Obviously the average home grower does not have access to this type of technology and with a smaller number of trees, scab is much simpler to control. Especially if it is controlled at the primary infection level and secondary infections are not present. But again, scab infections can differ greatly from location to location. Glad you have been able to control it with as few as two sprays. On the bright side, we have never had any Cedar Apple Rust!!

Here is a link that might be useful: PAN Pesticides Data Base

OrK, I'm aware of the phase out, I'm just stating my opinion that in the context of spraying a small stand of trees with Imidan, I don't see much risk if the sprayer follows the label. The phase out is for a variety of reasons, but it is about the big picture environmentally and the idea of commercial production using tons of the stuff in a relatively small area at thousands and thousands of sites. If it is so unsafe for people, where are the victims after all these decades of widespread use? It used to be considered the lowest risk insecticide with efficacy against PC and was even marketed by "organic" suppliers.

When I started my business many years ago I had very little to go on besides Cornell recs for commercial fruit production- their info for home orchards was laughable and is still very deficient IMO. The problem with translating commercial production methods to the home orchard is that it always leads to overkill from my experience. Pest pressure is proportional, to a large degree, to the size of the operation.

I was told by the gurus of Cornell and others that my low spray approach would rapidly lead to resistance and rapidly make the myclo useless- after 25 years I'm still waiting. How much longer does resistance take to develop in 10 apple trees compared to 10,000? I don't think the research has been done.

Just one example of the difference of home growing compared to commercial production.

Hi Mark! I had a tough year in 2011 and spent most of that year (March through November) in an out of the hospital and on antibiotics the whole time! had an Iv in me from June through September! Guess I'll never get Fire Blight!!!

We have added a nursery to our orchard over the past two years and have been working with homeowners and smaller growers in establishing their home orchards, so I am becoming more involved with the home grower. I generally recommend Bonide products, as we are a dealer with them for the nursery, and have put together various spray packages of both conventional and natural ("organic") products that can be adapted to the Purdue guides. Janna Beckerman, Botany and Plant Pathologist at Purdue, helped put the guide together and we did some work together a few years ago on our Jonafree and Red Free scab resistance. Seems several orchards with certain scab resistant varieties started to develop scab and they had some Jonafree in the Purdue orchard that started developing scab, so she come to the orchard and we took several samples of ours to see if they could get cultures to grow in their lab. Fortunately they had no success in getting our samples to develop scab! If you want to read about the link is below.

I've been using Calypso (thiacloprid) for PC with great success over the past several years. It is in the cyano class and is a broad spectrum product and easy on the bees. We have doubled our hives over the past two years and do not want to use any products that would be harmful to them. The Xerces Society has some good resources on the effect neonics have had on the bee population
(http://www.xerces.org/?s=neonics).

Been using Rimon and rotating seasons with Tourismo and Virosoft for Codling Moth. Haven't seen a second generation now in two seasons and have only had to do two sprays each season over the past few years, an ovicide and a larvicide . Assail for AM and due to the broad spectrum of Calypso and Tourismo, no issues with RBLR, OBLR STLM or OFM.

Good to dialog with you again!

Here is a link that might be useful: Loss of Scab Resistance in Once-Resistant Apple Cultivars

Harvestman, right there with you! We did use Imidan from 1995 through 2006, but began phasing it out in '07 as our participation grew with the Eco-Apple network. I totally agree with you on the small scale use of the products you use. You know how many sprays the commercial spray guides call for each season and to say that is overkill is an understatement!

I'll look at the spray guides as a reference, but do not follow them as a rule. We developed our own protocol based on our own pest pressure and our bee population. We generally have 40 to 50 hives year round and harvest our own honey, so we have to be protective of our bees. We also have four generations of our family living here at the orchard and 7 grandchildren that sleep within 100' of our West orchard.....so we want to protect them as well. So all of that goes into protocol considerations. I spend several months during the off season researching various products and protocols to make improvements to our own protocol each season.

We started out organic back in 1992, but after several years of crop loss, had to switch to conventional. We just have tremendous pest pressure in our location, some due to the fact that we had an abandoned orchard downwind from ours about 5 miles away until is was razed recently. And Illinois has no abandoned orchard regulations as Michigan does. Hopefully we will see our pest pressure improve over the next few years!

Since the early 90's "organic" products have improved greatly and there are new bioinsecticides coming onto the market yearly like Virosoft and Grandevo. Unfortunately, Grandevo is highly toxic to bees!! Go figure!

I certainly appreciate your approaches to pest management and look forward to future dialogs. Hope they are beneficial to those reading them!

These discussions, including the disagreements, are very enlightening.

OrK, I have enjoyed it as well and really appreciate having a commercial apple grower aboard- especially one as conscientious and knowledgeable as you. The wider the range of experiences the more useful and interesting this forum is- and I'm particularly grateful that you've got a thick enough hide not to mind being contradicted. I get nervous when someone with the gravitas to be influential suggests much more spray than I think is necessary.

I tried out the organic approach as well because I came here from CA and already had about 15 years experience there growing many things without spray (so easy in S. CA to do). Now I offer a Surround based program for customers that insist on synthetic free production, but when they see things rot or if scab appears on their apples they usually will at least allow synthetic fungicides. We do get reasonable control of the major insect pests with Surround- except, of course, MITES!

Dennis,

Do you happen to know the EPA's expected timetable for phosmet phase out? As I recall, 2013 was the last year on-farm inventories of Guthion could be used by apple growers.

Imidan has gone through some more restrictive labeling, but I wasn't aware it was slated for removal. Like you, I currently don't use any organophosphates, but am interested in any new developments regarding them.

I was aware some strains of scab had overcome the resistance of scab resistant apple cultivars (as has happened with pecans). I've even read some fruit specialists recommending spraying for scab on resistant cultivars before they become scab susc., in order to slow down cultivar susceptibility. Curious if you are employing this practice?

Since you are a dealer for Bonide, there was a recent thread on this forum about a new product they relased (basically a pre-mix of Warrior and Pristine for homeowners - see link below). Any comments?

Lastly (and off topic) when I last talked to you via email about your peaches a few years ago, you had given up on them and were pulling them out. You had mentioned PF24c was a performer in your cold climate. Did you ever try any of the other supposed cold climate varieties - Reliance, Veteran, Madison, Intrepid, Challenger, Contender, Wisconsin Balmer? If so, how did they fare?

Glad your leg did eventually heal. Hopefully you're done with those treatments for good!

Here is a link that might be useful: Bonide just came out with a new fruit tree spray

It was my understanding back in February of 2013 that the phase out was to be completed by 2017, with the newer label restrictions being the first phase. I haven't seen any new data that refutes or supports that lately though. The phase out was announce back in '06. Our network began in 2006 with the phaseout of all organophosphates due to the projected total phaseout and started coming up with alternatives as have many other extensions services around the country.

Bonide is phasing out the Fruit Tree Spray that contains Captan, Carbaryl and Malathion (MPFS) and the new Fruit Tree & Plant Guard spray is replacing it. Unfortunately, Lambda-cyhalothrin, one of the major components of the new spray is highly toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment or residues on blooming crops or broadleaf weeds, ie dandelions, clover, etc.

We actually had to remove all of those peach trees in 2006 because they ended up freeaing when we hit a spell of -26 temps the previous winter. We replanted new trees in 2013 and the jury is still out on those trees. We planted them in the southern most portion of our East orchard and they got sun all day long. We have lost all the new wood, but it seems that some of the 1"+ wood may have survived this past winter. The jury is still our as to how many survived. We should know in another week or two....as soona s we see some 60 degree + temps here!! All the apple trees have been hanging around green tip to 1/4" green now for over a week and the peach trees have not shown any green tip at all, but some of the wood is still green inside. Only time will tell!!

We lost Reliance, PF 24C, and Contender back in '06. We now hacve PF 24C Cold Hardy, PF24C-007 and PF 7A and PF 5D. I'll let you know how they turn out!

I would also like to add to the chorus that its great to have another "pro" posting here.

I myself would be interested in discussing home organic (or at least lower impact) fruit growing. The state schools are still way behind on knowledge and putting out spray programs etc on that. Michael Phillips wrote a good book, but I don't think it will get you too far out of his zone in terms of pest pressure. I have spent ten years basically making my own regimen for my particular orchard, with lots of mistakes made along the way.

Scott

Scott, I'm going to refer you to two organic guides that have come out of the "higher eduction" realm. I think they are actually quite good in terms of what one is up against when trying to grow organically. They are also good in terms of the products that are out there that are available for the organic grower. I realize that they are "institutional" guides, but they are still good to refer to. one guide is the Cornell Growers Guide to Organic Apples. It is a free download at http://nysipm.cornell.edu/organic_guide/apples.pdf . The other is more of an entire web site rather than a guide per say. It is from the Kearneysville Tree Fruit Research and Education Center and West Virginia University. The link is below. It also links to the Cornell Guide plus a number of other resources. When I get some more time (have a workshop on Pest Management in the morning to finish up on) I'll post some recommendations on organic products that are readily available for the home grower. For now, got to http://www.bonide.com/products/category.php?category_id=1&page=1&per=all and you will see all of the Bonide products that are available for organic or natural growing. I have used many of these products with success here in northern Illinois in zone 5, but you may have some different pest than we do in your warmer zone.

Here is a link that might be useful: Thinking Organic? Links to Get Started and Some Myths Busted

Orchardkeeper, I have seen that Cornell guide. Its a very well written and thorough piece, but it doesn't give enough on what a standard control program would be. Its also for apples only. That WVU page has some really good links on it that I had not seen, thanks for pointing them out.

The kind of thing I would like to see is the "bottom line" on certain problems and what to do. For example cedar apple rust. Obviously planting resistant cultivars is #1, but the fallback if its too late for that is nuanced. The Cornell guide mentions sulphur as an option, but doesn't give any idea of how well it is going to work or how accurate you need to be on spray timing, coverage, etc. For me I tried sulphur but at some point I had to chop down a beautiful 40' cedar to reduce it to a tolerable level. I found quince rust harder to control, it was more prone to infect the fruits whereas cedar apple rust if mild was primarily on the leaves and not a big problem. So, I ended up removing my quince (also for reasons of fireblight). Speaking of fireblight, the Cornell guide does do a very good job detailing it; but, since the cures are the standard ones anyway they could just crib from conventional growing knowledge (copper and antibiotics are still in the organic category). Its things that are easy with synthetics and hard with organics that there is a lack of information on.

Scott

Scott, you could write such a better, more practical book than Phillips, IMO. He's is one of these idealists that starts with a belief system and then cherry picks information to create a mythological formula for making his belief system real. He doesn't actually put these ideas to work to create a productive orchard in an area with similar pest pressure to where most of the fruit is being grown in the east.

It all reminds me of the way Organic Gardening Magazine used to proselytize in the 70's into the 90's about how to grow fruit organically in the humid regions. Finally Rodale put the ideas to researchers at Cornell and the result was the discovery that organic apple production was not economically feasible in the east. Of course this was before Surround.

It may be easier to make a living selling books than fruit. All this isn't to say that Phillips first book is without merit- I found it very well written with some good ideas and great explanations about pest life cycles and so forth. .

Thanks hman. I am in fact vaguely thinking of writing up some notes on the basics and sticking it up on the web somewhere. I think Phillips wrote a great apple book for his zone 4, but the other fruits and zones are a big step down. Still lots of good stuff.

Scott

Scot, I've been thinking about doing the same, but I spend all my spare (unpayed) fruit oriented time here.

Scott and H-man,

I'll buy your books any day.

Same here!

Get Jellyman involved too!!