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Carmine Jewel

Posted by iowajer 4a (My Page) on
Mon, Apr 15, 13 at 15:45

So I've been fretting about my Early Richmond for a couple years now, and so in June of 2011 I planted 4 Carmine Jewel that I'd ordered from Gurney's. (Along with a North Star from a local nursery)

The CJ's were all pretty darn small, and two had leaf burn within a couple days of planting them, and one died soon after that.

I told Gurney's that one died and they gladly put in an order for a replacement, but said it'd be the following year as it was too late to ship. So in 2012 they sent me two more. So I have 5 all together.

Here's a picture of the biggest one of the 5, he's about 4 1/2' tall. So he was in the ground from June of '11, all of '12, and now '13. I'm fairly happy with the growth rate. I have another one about this size as well, then there are two that are like 3 1/2 and one that's about 2 feet.

 photo IMG_1162.jpg

I sort of assumed with them being shrubs/bushes that I'd just let them be. But should I concern myself with any pruning of the inside branches that cross over each other?

I have zero experience with shrubs of any kind. I don't know if any of the li'l CJ's will fruit this year, but I guess I don't care too much other than I'm just curious about the characteristics and all that jazz.

I just felt like a 6-7' tall and maybe 6' wide bush would be just the ticket as I get more and more gray, but if I need to help it along with some pruning I sure can.

Thanks!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Carmine Jewel

Well, I think some folks do little to no pruning, others in more humid areas, will prune to an open vase to allow more air flow into the middle of the bush, and they can get pretty bushy. Here is a link to more info on the dwarf sour cherries. I am growing them as my Big Cherry Experiment. My 'Carmine Jewel' is a little smaller than yours, going into its second season. I have 4 'Crimson Passion' sour cherries in 1 gal pots, getting bigger and leafing out that will go into the ground probably in May or June. We'll see if they will set fruit here in my area. If so, I will report back to the Univ. of Saskatchewan as I think they would be very interested to know how their lovely sour cherry cultivars do in a much warmer climate. It is just now leafing out for me, last of my stone fruits to leaf out (which is what I would expect) along with my Evans sour cherry.

Patty S.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dwarf Sour Cherry Guide


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Patty,
I'm wondering if you could construct a little chilling tent for them since some one on this forum or figs is bound to invent it next! Give them some chill hours! Hahahaha Seriously hahaha
Nice looking bushes! You can probably look closely and see the flower vs. vegetative buds like I can on my plums.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Thank you for that Patty.

It does sound like a little open vase style is maybe the way to go. It can get way humid here! I'll be interested to know how they preform in your area too. Maybe not as interested as U of S, but still....

Thanks again!


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RE: Carmine Jewel

I'm not sure I would know the difference Noogy. I think I'll run out real quick while it's still a little light out and have a look-see!


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Hah, Noogy, can you imagine?? Here's a photo of my 'Carmine Jewel':
 photo IMG_2304_zps829ee0f4.jpg
Actually, the photo is amusing, because in the background you can see California native plants as well as other water-wise plants for our warm climate, lol! The green plant in the upper right corner is Ceanothus 'Concha' (hybrid of a native) and the greyish plant directly behind the 'Carmine Jewel' is Santolina (native to the Mediterranean) as well as Rosemary at its feet. So, we'll see how it does. It's ahead of my 'Evans' sour cherry, which is still just sitting there, buds swollen, but not broken, yet. I have them right behind my two cherished 'Sandra Rose' cherry trees that went in just about a month ago, which are leaving out, have had a few flowers, and it looks like I'll actually have few 'Sandra Rose' cherries this year. I will be building a barricade around those two cherry trees that will be bullet-proof, if those cherries look like they'll hang on, lol!! (Yes, Steve, you read that right - 'Sandra Rose' and don't ask how I got it done, lol!!!)

Patty S.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Michigan State University has also been studying these and experimenting with a number of tart cherries. Michigan produces about 70% of the tart cherries that go to market, Carmine Jewel and Crimson Passion are both in testing programs. Also a number of new cultivars developed by MSU for high density planting experiments. Some unusual combinations of Gisela root stocks with tart cherries are also being done. Since the industry is so important to MI, a huge number of experiments are going on. They are hoping to bring in the Romance series too for testing.
MSU does market new cultivars, so we may see some out of these trials. I hope so!

Here is a link that might be useful: MSU trials


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Thanks for the link, Drew. I hope I can get fruit set on mine, that will be the Big Experiment :-)

Patty S.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Well here's how the dwarf cherries look up North, about 300 miles west of where they were bred (photo taken April 13). From left to right -- Romeo, Juliet, Cupid, Carmine Jewel. These were all planted in May 2011. In 2012 at least 3, possibly all 4, flowered (the one I'm not sure of is Carmine Jewel). Nasty hail in July destroyed most of the small crop, but I did get about 2 cups ripe fruit from the Cupid in August.

Early freeze and snow in late October froze up the leaves before they fell, and the snow has been with us ever since -- longest winter I've ever experienced. Buds look healthy on the trees at least, but still in tight winter bud stage. Hoping for fruit from all 4 this summer... if summer ever comes.
 photo Apr1313cherriestrim.jpg


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Thanks Drew, that was an interesting article. I think it was last year (but it could have been the year before?) when the late freeze hit Michigan and I'd read here on the forum where it had such an impact on the tart cherry market that our country was importing cherries from Poland (or something like that) to take up the slack. That's where I first read the huge market share as a percentage that Michigan had relative to tart cherries. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the trials for sure!

Seeing all that snow-cover makes our Iowa weather seem down right balmy Don! It was late afternoon yesterday before it got out of the 30's and it was 32 when I checked this morning, heading for a predicted high of 54 today though! (47, 39 & 44 the next few days forecast highs, with lows dipping into the high 20's)

So it looks like warm weather is coming, it's just taking its time...

Have you already, or are you planning on doing any pruning on yours Don, or do you leave them alone that way?

Again, just gathering up as much info as I can on growing shrubs/bushes...

Thanks!



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RE: Carmine Jewel

The only pruning I've done so far is some extremely light "tidying"... almost nothing really. My hope is that they will not quite touch each other when they are mature, but if that turns out to not be the case I might help shape them. I want them to be upright cylindrical bushes, not globes or spreading bushes like a Nanking cherry.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

I'm a little hesitant to prune mine and cut off any flower buds. Since my bushes are young, I'm going to attempt to do some branch spreading and see if I can open it up a little more and increase the efficiency of ventilation and sun exposure. The current gorgeous plants I got from HBUSA are in pots and are receiving the rotate daily treatment and are loving the afternoon sun. I'll be putting them out gradually next week to see if they'll harden off and take the light before they go in the ground.With the big ones @18", the difference in growth vigor and leaf phenotype differentiation is more pronounced between CJ and CP .


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Thanks for the pruning info. On spacing, I have mine at about 12' between them one way and 14' the other, so I ought to be OK that way I think.

From some accounts it sounds like CP starts out with a bit more vigor than advertized, I'm trying to convince the better half that one more cherry wouldn't hurt a thing!


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RE: Carmine Jewel

  • Posted by skyjs z8 OR, USA (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 18, 13 at 12:08

From my experience, most dwarf cherries like this get disease in our wet springs here in the PNW, so they lose the fruit and aren't worth groiwng. PLease let me know if you know otherwise.
Thanks,
John S
PDX OR


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RE: Carmine Jewel

"From my experience, most dwarf cherries like this get disease in our wet springs here in the PNW"

Yeah any cherry would be hard to grow, here in MI it can be very wet too. You have to spray, if you use copper, and other fungicides, you could grow them. Peach trees in your area are facing the same thing. Stone fruit is not easy to grow. These trees are meant for colder areas, I would at least first grow sweet cherries in your area. But I think you could grow them. Best if you're experienced at stone fruits.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Thu, Apr 18, 13 at 13:10


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RE: Carmine Jewel

I planted 6 very small Carmine Jewels in the spring of 2011.
Mid summer of 2012, I could see that some of the branches were growing a little too close together. Like Noogy, I wanted to spread some branches to open the plants instead of pruning. It worked great! Since the branches are so small and relatively close to the ground, I just used a brick and some heavy string.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

NMin,
Glad to hear that's working for you. I figure that's one way around the vertical habit plus it's in-line with cultural practices that increase ventilation, light exposure and should yield great fruit. The early morning light it gets keeps the fungus down, but on high pressure situations would Immunox be a good antifungal for this?
Once the fungus and bacteria is taken care of the only thing I would be concerned with is HAIL.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Brr, Don! You sound like you might live close to where my mum grew up - Edmonton, AB. I grew up off and on in Vancouver, and when I would complain about being cold during the winter, my mum would just roll her eyes, lol! I will be very interested to see if I can get any fruit set on either my Carmine Jewel or Crimson Passion. Will update the forum as things move along.

Patty S.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Patty -- Good sleuthing, you got my exact location!

Even with the continued cold spell (flurries yesterday and again this morning), the sun getting higher in the sky really melts things this time of year. Here's an update garden photo today (7 days after the pic above). The stuff under the straw piles are my Chester blackberries -- they haven't seen light of day in almost 6 months now...
 photo IMG_1800trim.jpg


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RE: Carmine Jewel

I don't want to take this thread on a turn, but I need to ask Don555 about his Chester blackberries. I've wanted to grow blackberries, but I thought it was too cold here. Do you bend them to the ground and then cover with hay just before freeze up?


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Northernmn -- I've grown them for the past 4 years, 2 plants. First year - establishment. 2nd year - 1 berry the rest taken out by early frost. 3rd year - about 450 berries. 4th year (2012) - over 500 berries from one plant, the other suffered winterkill and didn't produce but the vines regrew vigorously in the summer.

Yes, it is too cold, but with determination and stubborness things are sometimes possible. I bend the canes to the ground and cover. Previous years covered with leaves, last winter used straw and burlap, hoping that is more protective. Technically the upright varieties are supposed to be harder, but since you can't lay those ones flat, it is only the trailing ones that can be grown this far north IMO.

If you go to the Far North Gardening section and search for blackberry you will find several threads there with much greater detail.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

I kinda figured, Don :-) It can be wicked cold where you are in the winter, and winters can be long, but is sure is beautiful. And, very well done with your 'Chester' blackberries! I have 'Chester', and I just love the flavor of that blackberry. So far, knock on wood, the orioles have not discovered it.

Patty S.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Re: Chester Blackberries

Mine are planted on a south wall, and is somewhat shaded by a small house. They do get 8 hours of sun. I cannot stop them from growing, and the canes went over 12 feet tall in the plants second year. By the books im in zone 3 (temp data shows zone 4)

Re:Cherries

Im experimenting with cherries here. I could not find any cherry trees of any sort here. I thought about the Romance series, and even the Carmine Jewel (which had the best reviews for taste). If i recall, most are grown in their own roots, so I dont see any reason why the US market would graft them.

The U of Sask is becoming the forerunner for cold hardy fruits, and until recently seems a but under appreciated. I

I ordered some Evans Cherry from alberta nurseries. 8" "rooted plugs" on their own roots. I know (thanks to Konrad) that they can have some dieback in some of the more northern climates, but I think they will thrive here. I wont know for sure until this spring (if it shows up), but the small trees have swollen buds, and no die back.

Most of the U of Sask trees are made to grow in cold climates. Some of them have Mongolian cherry genes, and they can take -45C (the mongolian cherries). I can only assume they wont get the chill hours in Cali, but you do indeed never know.

The next big thing coming out of Sask? Grapes!


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RE: Carmine Jewel

"If i recall, most are grown in their own roots, so I dont see any reason why the US market would graft them"

To make them grow faster, time is money. Gisela 5 seems to be the preferred rootstock for commercial production. At this time it is still experimental. They might decide it is not worth it. Gisela 5 should make them bear fruit the 2nd year. I have two sweet cherries on Gisela and both had fruit the 2nd year. One is a Glacier, and I had to knock buds off it, it has way too many for such a small tree.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Sun, Apr 21, 13 at 15:00


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RE: Carmine Jewel

  • Posted by olpea zone 6 KS (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 21, 13 at 16:14

Drew,

I'm not sure there is any rootstock testing going on with the Romance series cherries.

The big advantage of the series on their own roots in cold climates is that the tops can be winter killed and the block will regrow without replanting.

Obviously this wouldn't be an advantage in warmer climates, but warmer climates would still have the advantage of suckering to fill in the planting for Romance cherries on their own roots.

There may not be a lot of incentive to make them produce earlier anyway. Bush cherries seem to produce fairly early on their own roots. The developer indicated in commercial plantings (see link below) Carmine Jewel produces 2-4 lbs./plant in their third year.

I am considering planting Carmine Jewel and Crimson passion and almost ordered the plants this spring but really didn't have the planting site ready.

Here is a link that might be useful: Breeding and Training Dwarf Sour Cherries - Bob Bors - U. of Sac.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

"Drew,
I'm not sure there is any rootstock testing going on with the Romance series cherries. "

Well if you look at my earlier message you can read about the MSU rootstock trials yourself. Here is the link again...

From the study

"MSU’s Ron Perry has been instrumental in bringing some of the tart cherries bred in Saskatchewan, Canada, to Michigan"
"The primary goal of this research is to allow growers to harvest trees earlier than the five to seven years traditionally required for trees to mature enough to withstand trunk shaking. This earlier harvest would allow growers to receive an earlier return on their investment."

Here is a link that might be useful: Tart cherry studies at MSU

This post was edited by Drew51 on Sun, Apr 21, 13 at 16:53


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RE: Carmine Jewel

You can also read about the new harvesting equipment here:
http://agbioresearch.msu.edu/spotlight/michigan-tart-cherry-competitiv e.html

Linked to message is more info on rootstock testing, high density planting etc. Note again the Canadian cultivars are mentioned as being included in testing.

Here is a link that might be useful: tart cherry studies

This post was edited by Drew51 on Sun, Apr 21, 13 at 17:08


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RE: Carmine Jewel

It doesn't hurt to test grafted bush cherries I guess, but they fruit awfully early on their own roots anyway, not to mention the other advantages mentioned above. I bought some potted mail order plants (Carmine Jewel, Cupid, Juliet, Romeo) in Spring 2011 and all of them bloomed in 2012. Not many of the blooms grew into fruit but the Cupid produced about a half-quart of ripe cherries and the Romeo had a couple that the birds beat me to. They might have all produced some ripe fruit but hail in July really damaged all the tree fruits -- I got zero apples and plums.

Anyway, if mine were starting to set fruit in their second season in the ground, I don't know if a graft could be any quicker. Well, maybe that's why they test it...

Cupid, one year after planting:
 photo May2712Cupidcherry2.jpg


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Yeah, they seem to be running trials along side non-grafted trees. So they may come to the same conclusion. It appears the main goal is to size up the tree to use this new fangled cherry picking machine.
Also they have new cultivars, both tart cherry and rootstock, So they want to test all of these. I also think they are trying to decide if to use traditional tart cherries, the new Canadian examples or their secret numbered only cultivars they developed. It's been a couple years, so i expect results to come soon.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

  • Posted by olpea zone 6 KS (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 21, 13 at 23:31

"Well if you look at my earlier message you can read about the MSU rootstock trials yourself. Here is the link again..."

Drew,

I did read the first link and the others you posted. I see no indication MSU is doing rootstock trials on the Romance cherries.

I see the links indicating they are doing rootstock trials on sweet cherries and Montmorency, but not on the bush cherries. They are doing rootstock trails for harvest equipment, but that seems to relate to minimizing shaker trunk damage which wouldn't have anything to do with bush cherries.

They mention research on the Romance cherries, just not in conjunction with rootstocks. My guess is they are probably doing yield trials on the Romance cherries.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

You may be right, just seems strange to mention them in the article, as MSU has many cherry studies going. Most of them are not mentioned.
Yes, they have a plot with just Carmine Jewel and Crimson Passion. Any tree can be grown on it's own roots. The Canadian cherries were developed to extend the range of where you can grow them. There are of course advantages and disadvantages to using rootstocks. I would not be surprised if eventually the Canadian cultivars will be on rootstocks too. I keep hearing about people growing them this way, including this site.
At this time I believe they have not been around enough to determine how good their own roots are. Looks promising, but better growth, disease resistance increased with rootstocks may be obtained. Time will tell.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

  • Posted by olpea zone 6 KS (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 22, 13 at 1:57

" I keep hearing about people growing them this way, including this site."

I imagine that's simply because the plants are expensive and/or hard to obtain, encouraging individuals to graft them themselves.

Currently U. of Sac. holds the rights to propagation of these plants. They've given Garden's Alive exclusive rights of propagation in the U.S. Garden's Alive markets the plants through their subsidiaries, Gurney's and Henry Fields.

The two other U.S. nurseries that sell these - St. Lawrence and Honeyberry USA get their plants from an authorized Canadian nursery (I contacted both of them earlier this spring.) None of these nurseries offer grafted plants.

Your right, it is pretty early to determine how these cherries will perform in warmer climates. But until some deficiency manifests I don't think there will be a lot of pressure to try them on various rootstocks. The ability of the plants to sucker on their own roots and fill in the rows, is a pretty big deal.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Yes, sad news about Garden's Alive. They operate on both sides of the border. Overall though the nurseries are rather mediocre. The demand for the plants is high, and the specimen's are not that impressive. I paid a little extra for a larger tree. But is is only 8 inches, and yes it is from HBUSA. No doubt it will be 6 or 7 years before this twig sees full production. All the photos posted here too are much bigger than mine, but still all are rather small trees. No farmer can afford to wait for these, and probably cannot order enough for commercial use. Distribution is terrible!
Compared to the sweet cherry I got an almost 5 ft tall tree and on Gisela will be producing next year. In it's 3rd year I'll probably get hundreds of cherries. Don666 has a decent tree, and it did produce early, but they are not selling anything near that size. And if I wanted 100 of them, I bet I could not get them. The distribution sucks! Garden's Alive so far has not even offered cupid and the other romance series trees. I'm not sure what they are waiting for?
On suckers ,early reports are they really do not sucker that much. Anybody here have any suckers?

Yeah I had some bare root raspberries come in at the same time, and they look giant compared to the Carmine Jewel. So olpea, you could keep it in a 1/2 gallon pot all summer and plant in the fall, if you're area is not ready yet. I would, don't expect to be harvesting huge crops anytime soon!

Well i hope MSU is doing something radical with the trees, as so far for commercial use, these trees are not impressive. I'm very curious about the MSU cultivars too, their MSU Kiwi, and The Liberty blueberry are rather impressive offerings from MSU.
My thought is MSU is going to go for the traditional tart cherries for processing. These trees are just too small, and they need a tree that can produce hundreds of cherries in 3 years, if not it is out. They do need a small tree, but it must produce early, and not just a few cherries, but hundreds of cherries.
But if one can invest the time, these trees are very cool. The 6 foot specimens I have seen do produce hundreds of cherries. It is why i was confused about them being mentioned in the articles, because these trees do not produce early, it does take 5 or 6 years to reach full production. Why would they be included in studies to produce in 3 years if they were doing nothing different? As we already know how long it takes to grow them. I guess they may have been mentioned because they are the right size for the harvester machine, OK, that makes sense.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Mon, Apr 22, 13 at 8:39


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RE: Carmine Jewel

If you're ordering from HBUSA get the big plant size. The CJ and CP's I ordered were 18-20" and have exploded in the past 3 weeks and are over 2'. There were big roots on them. I have them receiving AM and PM light. They also shipped out big Indigo gem honeyberry plants.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

" If you're ordering from HBUSA get the big plant size"

I did, $22.00 it was 8 inches! I guess they ran out of bigger ones, but no refund has followed Same with CP. I paid them over $100.00 dollars for 4 plants that added up to 24 inches of plants! Total ripoff. I did tell them I would take the smaller plants if they no longer had the larger size, but expected a refund. That has not happened.Buyer beware.


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RE: Carmine Jewel

Me, too. The sticks just arrived a moment ago in a US postal box. I thought it was something else.

They are in a 2.5"x 2.5" pot. I ordered the bigger size (a 12"-20" size). Paid $18 for CJ and $21 for CP.

CJ is at 14" tall and CP is 12" tall (more expensive and at the shortest height of that price range).

I guess if people can wait a few years for some other nurseries in the US to have authorization to sell real bushes, you should. You probably will get bigger bushes and can catch up with us (or be ahead of us) since we start by growing these pencils.


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