Return to the Fruit & Orchards Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Butchered roots

Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on
Tue, Apr 1, 14 at 16:25

I just opened a box of 4 trees I purchased from Bay Laurel Nursery and the large diamtered trees were simply butchered- hardly any root at all. I can see why lots of folks prefer smaller trees if this is the industry standard for small orders now.

Why don't these nurseries offer the option to charge us more and put trees in boxes large enough to fit some root? Of course, it's possible the trees came from Dave Wilson Nursery in this pathetic condition.

$124 for this! Sure hope they at least live.


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Butchered roots

I thought you said you ran a nursery? Why are you buying retail??? Call, complain, return them.....if they give you crap call your CC company and dispute the charge.

This post was edited by bamboo_rabbit on Tue, Apr 1, 14 at 18:12


 o
RE: Butchered roots

Thank you for your concern BR- these were varieties that only Dave Wilson carries and I can only buy from the West coast- they are far my own personal orchard and possibly to eventually use for grafting wood. The point of my post is to draw attention to Bay Laurel's trees and open a discussion of other people's experience with them.

I don't care to return the trees or get a refund unless the trees don't make it because it won't speed my opportunity to sample these specific varieties.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

I wanted to stop by their retail nursery the other day but had family in the car that are not so in to fruit trees.

What did you get?

Funny thing, I ordered some different plants from a different nursery, turns out to have them trimmed and put in a flat rate box was more expensive than leaving them untrimmed and sent regular priority.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

Last year I ordered a few trees from Bay Laurel also, and the roots were trimmed hard, as you say. But the trees did very well. It didn't seem to matter.So hopefully they will be fine. I was kinda shocked. The Tierra Madre Farms Nursery left roots intact. The tree looks great, but too early to tell how well it will do. You saw that tree in the other thread about scaffold training. That nursery has very few choices, But they had what i wanted, so...
I ordered 2 blueberries from Bay Laurel this year, no trees. Roots were intact, I was a little pissed as one was too wet, and some of the roots tore, but again, both plants leafed out and besides the tomatoes and peppers I grew from seed, is the only plant growing right now, which reminds me, the BB are outside, Yikes! Need to bring them in!
All in ground plants are still dormant. Ground is still frozen!

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Apr 1, 14 at 22:40


 o
RE: Butchered roots

I have been told that delivery services impose a size limit on the boxes carrying trees, and the nurseries have to trim them to fit.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

  • Posted by mrclint z10SoCal Valley (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 1, 14 at 23:57

Harvestman, it would be a big help to see a picture or two of what you are dealing with. Many of us "regular" folks don't know better than to just plant what we get and hope for the best. Oh, and just ignore and post over & around any trolls that you may encounter from now on, they like to promote negativity and then feed off of it. :)


 o
RE: Butchered roots

Someone here warned me of that last year. When I placed my order I asked that they not be trimmed, They followed through and they shipped in a larger box. Shipping was $65.00 if I recall.

Here is their reply to my request: "We will send your trees in a large box so that pruning will be unnecessary, but we want you to know that the special order trees are usually pruned before we ever receive them so you should be prepared for that."


 o
RE: Butchered roots

I can feel your pain!
Here, my only two trees ordered last year, [small] ..it was a bit of a shocker, especially the one on the right, it couldn't stand up on its own!


 o
RE: Butchered roots

konrad___far_north, what are they? Did they live? Yikes!


 o
RE: Butchered roots

I will provide a photo later today, I have one. Big roots cut to 3" stubs. You could fit the "root balls" in a two gallon container.

I've ordered from other non-wholesale nurseries in the last few years, including trees of antiquity, raintree, and burnt ridge but these were put in the slimmest box for four trees I've ever seen.

Emerald Beaut and Laroda plum, Indian Free and O'Henry peach.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

Harvestman, I posted a similar complaint on Bay Laurel here several years ago. They are the absolute worst on root pruning. I would recommend ordering Dave Wilson trees from Sanhedrin, they prune much less. Peaceful Valley I have not ordered from but they are surely better as well.

Scott


 o
RE: Butchered roots

  • Posted by olpea zone 6 KS (My Page) on
    Wed, Apr 2, 14 at 10:01

Scott,

I ordered a single tree (Imperial Epinuse) from Sanhedrin nursery for this spring, and they did the same thing. It was about a 3/4" tree and they hacked it to about 2' to fit in a really small box. Pruned the roots too. Shipping was about 25 bucks, which would have paid for shipping a larger box, so I'm not sure why the need to ship it in such a small box.

I'm still satisfied with the tree because I cut them back hard anyway so they don't wobble in our heavy KS wind. We also prune the roots when we plant, so we don't have to dig such a big hole. Nevertheless, I could see a lot of people would be unhappy with the topping and root pruning they did, especially if the goal is max precocity. Mine was also a Dave Wilson tree, so I suppose it's possible Dave Wilson cut the tree back, vs. the retail nursery.

BTW Scott, the fall budded Clayton peaches, from wood you sent, are pushing growth. Thanks.

As milehigh mentioned, UPS will ship large boxes. The box I got from Adams this year was huge. It was probably 6' long and 2' wide. It was way oversized for the size and amount of trees in the box and terribly expensive to ship (cost $69). In the past they've crammed the small trees in a reasonably sized box which cost about $25 in shipping.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

I am a rookie, so identifying 'good' roots from bad is spotty. The monster tennosui I received from burnt ridge had 3/4" caliper roots that were pruned to about 10" long. They then tied them together to get them to fit in the box. When I planted them, they didn't seem to want to spread back out, so they pointed slightly down.

From memory, the trees I got from groworganic had the roots pruned shorter.

Here is a video on how groworganic.com ships their trees. I believe their stock is from dave wilson. I'm guessing the shot of them pulling the tree from the shipping container is how it comes from dave wilson.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tree shipping


 o
RE: Butchered roots

  • Posted by fruitnut z7b-8a,4500ft SW TX (My Page) on
    Wed, Apr 2, 14 at 13:25

I would assume that greater pruning of roots would have the same effects as severely pruning the top. The regrowth of roots would be more rapid with more pruning. But past some point for some rootstocks, there might not be many roots that push just like large tops might not push many shoots. Just speculation on my part.

My Bay Laurel trees have grown fine and bore young. My main issue is larger caliper that only sprout top above 24-30 inches.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

My trees that showed up (in feb deep freeze), were root pruned harder than they showed in the video. They were bigger than I like to get at 3/4in. From groworganic.

I don't think I would be too happy with those trees Konrad got, unless I paid less than $5 each and was planning on it.

40 coming from starks Friday and 100 from ACN next week. I will see what they look like.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

If you are diligent with watering or blessed by the rain god with timely deliveries the tiny roots may not make a huge difference, but in my experience, the more root the better, especially with peaches.

I can move a 3 year old peach tree bare root, carefully extracting as much root as possible and sometimes be able to harvest fruit the first season as the tree is not the least bit staggered. But when I move a field bag tree in the appropriate sized bag for diameter it is only 50-50 I can let it make fruit even the second year. A bag tree functions much like a B and B'd one. Larger peach trees don't transplant particularly well. I'm moving most of my peaches BR these days.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

  • Posted by olpea zone 6 KS (My Page) on
    Wed, Apr 2, 14 at 20:15

Jag,

Are you getting any peaches or plums w/ those 140 trees? If so, what varieties?


 o
RE: Butchered roots

Whoa!!!!! Konrad. Neither of those trees are from Bay Laurel.

I agree with the Sanhedrin comment...they do minimal root pruning. I have been very pleased with my trees from them the past 3 years. And they offer the whole DWN SOFT catalog. But ironically I may put in a claim for a Goldmine nectarine on Nema with them that was 1" caliper topped flat at about 2 feet I suspect by DWN because the wound was healed over. Only one branch has popped out and it looks shaky.

I am rather surprised you are still getting bare root trees from Bay Laurel (BL) as they shut down their shipping a couple of weeks ago. And in my experience the worst bare roots from anyone are at the end of the season---you get the left overs or if they have a retail nursery all of their trees have been potted and you get an unpotted 5 gal. tree which is what yours sound like. Be sure to keep them watered. Hormodin 3? There claim cutoff is June 1st I believe so late May if you are unhappy with growth contact them.

Ordered 39 trees, 4 vines from BL and was pleased with the trees in January. This is my third and last year of major buying. Run out of room. Next year a few replacement trees maybe and citrus that I saved room for, if I finally can decide on a SSO replacement I "like." Other than that it is ground cover and vine time.

This post was edited by Fascist_Nation on Wed, Apr 2, 14 at 20:39


 o
RE: Butchered roots

Konrad, holy cow! I wouldn't even call those trees. They are just plain scary looking whips. Hope you didn't pay much for them. My trees are just arriving this week will post pics of their roots. Mrs. G


 o
RE: Butchered roots

Olpea, I planted 10 Reliance and 10 Redhaven last fall. Those were from Starks. My order from ACN next week does include Stanley, President, and Green Gage plums. I got a few stardust, and hedelfingen sweet cherry just to see if something late blooming like that would make it here.

To be honest my 100 Montmorency, 10 Balaton (planted last fall and only about half made it), and 10 Meteors (planted last fall and all made it) were my project. I make a homemade cherry wine and the pie cherries make the best. The other fruits were an excuse to get my prices down around $9 per tree. I don't know if I picked the right kinds of plums at all. I don't know if my peaches are right either, but I think the red haven should be ok at least. The apples should be fine here. Not the great varieties, but ones that shouldn't need a lot of help with CAR. 10 each Liberty, Enterprise, Empire, Honeygold, granny smith, and rogers red mac. I did get 3 each of gale gala, autumn gala, and honeycrisp I guess. They will need some help.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

All plums..
the little one is called plum tree Greenville, [1to3 feet] $35.00
The one the right, a sucker, Canada Plum [Prunus Nigra] $30.00 it didn't make it,..towards fall it had something shooting up at base but not sure if it hardened up enough to make the winter,..will see. They said they will replace it, I wait first and see if it grows,..now I lost another year!


 o
RE: Butchered roots

Olpea, that doesn't sound like the trees I got from Sanhedrin. Mine were more like standard trees from any nursery: some clipped roots but nothing severe, and the tree was 4' tall.

Glad to hear Clayton is going for you. I didn't have much luck on my budding last fall, I think I did it too late.

Scott


 o
RE: Butchered roots

  • Posted by olpea zone 6 KS (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 3, 14 at 9:16

Scott,

I've ordered from Sanhedrin once before (just one tree) and I don't recall they chopped it so hard, so maybe this year was a fluke.

Jag,

I'm really liking the Gage type plums here. For the last couple years they've done well. I've heard a lot of complaints with Gage plums cracking and rotting, but it's not happened yet here. It's been drier than normal the last two summers, so I'm sure that's helped.

One of the things I really like (in addition to tasting good) is that the Gage plums don't seem to internally brown in the heat. Some plums (and peaches) will be brown around the pit when you cut them open. They oxidize around the pit when it's really hot. I've not seen this with the Gage plums.

I also planted a Stanley, mainly for a pollinator. I had a President plum at one time. It's very late and will push your season to the very end.

Have you considered any of the "sweet/tart" cherries developed at MSU (Danube, Jubileum, Balaton)? They are quite a bit sweeter than Monty, but I don't know how they would do making wine.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

If you get a lot or rain in the week leading up to harvest I bet you will see plenty of cracking on your gages.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

I planted 10 balaton last fall with the 10 meteors. The meteors looked like they all made it, but the balatons had about half die over the winter. I didn't try the Danube or Jubileum yet because I heard they were earlier blooming than mont or balaton. I just don't think much will make it regularly out here without being as late blooming as possible.

As for rain at harvest, we always take what we can get! lol I think we had 9 inches out here last year total.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

I was impressed with these. 50 just like this showed up today. These were from starks, 5/8 caliper 5-6ft tall.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

I only ordered one thing from Starks, a gooseberry that I do not expect to do much here, but it was less than a pencil tall and very thin. But is busy growing this year.

I buy from a local nursery that gets Dave Wilson bareroots (they put in big tubs) When Tom Spellman comes to talk about how to manage your back yard orchard he prunes one of those new trees usually to the horror of those in attendance. Very short indeed, but he only cuts the broken or bad off the root and digs a bigger hole if needed.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on Wed, Apr 2, 14 at 5:29
I will provide a photo later today

Well?


 o
RE: Butchered roots

I decided it wasn't really needed because subsequent contributors pretty much indicated the problem is common. Sorry if I've disappointed.

If anyone is still interested, e-mail me and I will send the photo, getting it posted here is too much work for me for no real purpose.

BR, if you are really interested I'll do this for you as well. If you already know how to move it from e-mail to this site you can do that as well but don't bother taking me through the steps- just not worth the effort as much as you might enjoy it.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

>>getting it posted here is too much work for me for no real purpose. <<
Now it's so much easier, ..just give it a try.
See the browse icon on top, Image file to upload (optional), click on that after you finished the written part,... this will lead to your pictures stored on computer,..on my Mac, usually have them on Desktop, just click on it, then click preview,..wait a little and it will upload to your thread. Pictures will downsize automatically,....if file isn't HUGE.

You only can do one picture in one post,..want more, then just do another post.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

One thing I like to mention,.., [most you expert know this]..don't leave these roots exposed out in the burning sun, in no time, these tiny little feeder roots can dry up.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

The pictures are currently only in my e-mail.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

It really is simple as Konrad explained. Far as in your email.....left click the picture in your email and hold the button down and drag it on to your desktop and let go.....Voila it is on your desktop.

Isn't really fair to make a post to blast a company for the quality of their product without providing a picture so others can make their own determination as to the quality. Not that I doubt they were crappy as I have had nothing but disappointment with mail order plant vendors, all of them.

In your case it is even worse because you yourself sell trees so they are technically a competitor of yours. Would you like it if someone came to a site and said how horrible your trees were and offered no proof?


 o
RE: Butchered roots

Were they like these? This is my Bay Laurel order from last March.

Gold Dust peach (top)- Very thick (1" caliper just above the rootstock and 3/4" at the top), but the roots are pretty short. It put on very little growth the first year. The 7/16" caliper trees from FruitTreeFarm, which I got the same week, have far outpaced it in canopy size. One isn't quite as thick (3/4"), but the other (Jefferson) has caught up. One difference to consider is that while the FTF trees are on Halford, the BL is on Citation.

Tomcot apricot (middle)- I potted this one, so It's actually expected that it didn't put on much growth. Roots this size at least fit nicely in a container...

The one on the bottom is a Natchez blackberry- maybe. It has small thorns, something I don't believe it should have...

Last week, I got a Laroda plum from Sanhedrin, one day before you got yours from Bay Laurel. It had more roots than the BL, but was still trimmed more than I'd like (both branches and roots). When I locate the pic, I'll post it for comparison.

This post was edited by bob_z6 on Sun, Apr 6, 14 at 0:50


 o
RE: Butchered roots

Not to worry too much on the cut off heavy tap roots,...as long you have these little feeder roots above, you're good to go.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

About identical, thanks.

I don't expect the trees to die, just to barely grow this season.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

I found the Sanhedrin pic (Laroda plum). It looks better than the Bay Laurel order, but the roots were still pruned pretty hard.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

I showed this photo before, i didn't think of showing the roots. I was just impressed by the excellent low branching for such a thick caliper tree. From Tierra Madre Farm.
The roots were as impressive, you can somewhat tell from the size of the bag. Old Mixon Free peach.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

  • Posted by olpea zone 6 KS (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 7, 14 at 8:52

Bob,

That's about how my Imperial plum from Sanhedrin looked, although your tree appears bigger. What is that about a 1" tree?


 o
RE: Butchered roots

  • Posted by bob_z6 6b/7a SW CT (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 7, 14 at 22:45

Olpea, the part you can see in the picture is the rootstock, which is probably 1.5-2" diameter. Just above the rootstock measured about 1 1/8" on the Laroda (pictured above).

I also had a Harrow Delight pear (1" whip) and Cavalier nectarine (7/8", with 4 nice branches, at least 3 of which contain live buds).

Drew, I also got a Old Mixon Free from Tierra Madre this spring. Mine is a replacement for one which didn't leaf out last spring (neither did the pear from the same order- maybe it met with extreme temps in transit?). Mine is well branched, but I wouldn't call it big, not that I think it will be a problem, given how fast peaches grow.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

Another one: this is a plum from One Green World in Oregon.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

I opened my two boxes of trees from Adams and began planting them this week. The roots were not cut at all and most of the trees had a wonderful root system. Many of the trees were not topped either although the larger ones were.

The apples looked like the example posted from Starks.

I should get a pretty good comparison of growth to relative root mass at least, at least with the peaches- I will post the results in a few months.


 o
RE: Butchered roots

First thing I did was stake that thing. No way those stubs would be able to hold the tree in the ground at the first puff of wind.

It would otherwise have been a fine tree.


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Fruit & Orchards Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here