" I have read that the pyrethroids are less affective in hot weather without any specifics on what the parameters are."

Hman,

That's a good point. That's part of the reason I use my pyrethroid early in the season when temperatures are cooler (The other part is that Mustang Max has a two week PHI on peaches so I want to be done with it by the time peach harvest nears.)

I can't remember if I've ever read exactly how fast pyrethroids break down in heat, but as I recall I've read they are supposed to be less effective above 80F. It would be nice if researchers would do more studies on temperature vs. degradation of various pyrethroids, like they have with precipitation and % wash off of various insecticides.

Your experience with the pyrethoid you use is more in line with my own. I get good control w/ Mustang but sometimes I do rotate Actara for plum curc. I don't know if it was very clear from my last post, but from what I've read all pyrethoids have about the same activity on curc. (one's as good as the next) which is why I'm surprised about the disappointing results Frank and ltilton are having w/ Traizicide.

I know you use Imidan on some of your sites for curc. Do you see any difference in using Imidan vs. Asana? I've never used it, but Imidan is supposed to be king when it comes to controlling PC.

My only guesses as to the failure of Triazicide are that either the rain is washing too much of the residue off, or perhaps the Triazicide was old stock. It does degrade in heat and since it's a seasonal product, if it was stored in a hot warehouse, it could have compromised the active ingredient.

The link below indicates another product w/ gamma cyhalothrin (Optimate) can only be stored for 2 years.

Here is a link that might be useful: Optimate CS

Olpea, that is very important- the question of storage time, as you never know how long something might have sat in a store.

Last year I pretty much phased out Imidan only using it at a few sites that were actually (hobby) farms because results were more than adequate with the Assana only sites handled by my "subcontractor" during previous 2 years. His guys aren't licensed and only he is so he can't have them using restricted pesticides.

My bottle says 3Tsp per gallon...which is what i would have mixed... Whatever the case, i'm not risking using it again (I didn't use it last year)...

Esfenvalerate is a pyrethroid...

"RESULTS

Esfenvalerate had the greatest impact on mobility. Immediately after exposure to this compound, plum curculios moved significantly greater distances and for a significantly longer period of time compared with all other compounds. After 24 h, esfenvalerate also led to high mortality rates (>86.0%). Exposure to azinphosmethyl and phosmet also led to high rates of mortality, although the impact on mobility was less pronounced. Exposure to indoxacarb, thiacloprid, imidacloprid, novaluron, myclobutanin and mancozeb had no impact on mobility and resulted in little to no mortality. Clothianidin affected mobility after a 2 h exposure period, and high mortality (60%) was recorded after 24 h."

link

Itilton,
I found an old post stated "If you spray with Imidan and the Triazicide, it's likely that the egg laid in the fruit will die upon hatching. Yes, the fruit will still have the scar, but when mature, it's just a tiny brown mark that is a cosmetic defect but shouldn't be of any concern to a backyard grower". So, if you sprayed already, I think you can deal with a little scar on the fruits. It works systemically. Just continue to spray as schedule every 14 days and stop 3 weeks before harvest.

Tony

Tony,

Pyrethrins will not kill the egg once it is in the fruit, organophosphates or neonicotnoids will. Triazicide is a pyrethrin, Imidan is an organophosphate, there is a product called "Ortho fruit and vegetable insect killer" which contains Acetamiprid, a neonicotinoid. So if the eggs are already laid, the best option is to spray with imidan or Acetamiprid. The Acetamiprid is avaiable for home use.

below is link to the source of this data

Here is a link that might be useful: This article appeared in the Michigan State University Fruit CAT Newsletter Vol. 25, No. 6, May 18, 2010 2 Table 1. Insecticidal modes of activi ty on plum curculio life stages.

lwf is correct, but I don't believe the pyrethroids have the kickback of Imidan.

Curative activity is excellent with neonics...i once spot treated a few plums with egg laying scars ...maybe a half dozen...all of which ripened perfectly... That was with Thiamethoxam... the problem is that the odds are pretty high that the chemical is still present in that fruit come eating time and who knows at what dose... they are very slow to break down, although research shows they have low mammal toxicity.

I'd personally, if i had no kids/orchard was away from the house/yard...be spraying Phosmet. Its like the nuclear bomb that goes in and kills everything... but quickly degrades...without the radiation of course!

H-man,

What I did last year was cutting out the PC bite mark off with a sharp box cutter and went down about 0.25" deep. The apple scarred up and recovered. You could save some apple with a single bite mark this way. Good luck,

Tony

You probably get a lot more nicotine-type carcinogens when you stay in a hotel with smoking rooms. Turns out the chemicals permeate the entire hotels at rates that are considered dangerous. Guests were tested to determine how much they picked up and it is very surprising the high dosage received by guests in non-smoking rooms.

And for those of you who used to hang out in bars when smoking was permitted (is it still, in some states?) as I did as a young man, I imagine you shouldn't be too concerned about the little bit of residue in a scarred fruit.

>>>>

My neighbor ordered some imidan on line. Not sure where he got it from, but good old google will probably get you there if you want to go that route.

Phosmet is not a nuclear bomb that kills everything, the way I look at it. Triazide and Sevin are much harder on beneficial mites, for instance. What it does that some others don't do is keep killing when half washed off and (I'm telling you, better than even the nicitinoids) seeping into scars and killing larva.

It still doesn't have quite the residual power of the pyrethroids and even though it works when half washed off it washes off more easily than other insecticides making it bit of a wash.

Sorry to hear that it does not work for Frank and Itilton.

Triazicide works well for me so far. The bottle I have lists Gamma Cyhalothrin at 0.08% as active ingredients. I don't know if this is high or low %.

I do know I have those bugs but the bug pressure here may not be as high as your areas.

The storage issue makes sense. My bottle has been on the poison shelf in my garage for at least 2 years.

Storage issue raises my concern, too. I wonder if its effectiveness is lessened by heat alone or heat plus length of time in storage.

Mine bottle is over 3 yrs old and I still have a lot left. It's kept in the garage that can reach 80 or more In the summer.

I'll use it this year and see what happens.

Harvest-
I just like the thought of really knowing i'm wiping them all out with a proven chemical... I do know that pyrethroids are tough on a lot of bugs... I've made a decision to use permethrin at least for my first cover spray... which i'll need to apply here soon.

I just ordered the Ortho Flower, Fruit & Vegetable Insect Killer in the concentration form. The only place that I could find it was Amazon. Since I already have curcs in my plums, I'll be the guinea pig and let you all know if it works.

You are defeating yourself. Triazicide kills on contact but you do not know what you are doing. The most damage to stone fruit is caused by OFM and codling moth whom you never see. Yes you kill some the day you spray but others come next day. I gave up on killing adults and concentrated my efforts on preventing the eggs from hatching. Adult bugs do not hurt your fruit but the larva from the hatched eggs does all the destruction. Triazicide is very helpful when you see the enemy like the Japanese beatle for example but if your enemy is invisible ghost don't blame the Triazecide.l

FT, I'm just going on Cornells concerns with pyrethroids. So far I haven't seen outbreaks of mites on sites where they are being used. When I've used Sevin on J beetles the mite outbreaks have been almost automatic in large home orchards.

I don't think research has really sorted out the pyrethroids yet as far as exactly how tough they are on beneficials. The main Cornell concern seems to be that overuse will rapidly lead to resistance, which is much less a concern in smaller non-commercial plantings, I think.

What kind of sticker agent are you using with the Triazicide?

PCs love my sweet cherries. However, I sprayed with Triazicide and Nufilm17 and they seem to stay away or die. I did spray the whole tree. Leaves, fruit, and branches. I used 3TBS/gal Triazicide and 3TBS/gal Nufilm.

It has been about 10 days since I first sprayed. I do also go out and hunt the PC with a flashlight. and have picked a couple off the one cherry tree.

The PC here seem to only be a problem for 2 to 3 weeks in the spring. Then the stink bugs move in.

treehugger - maybe YOUR fruit takes most of its damage from OFM, but here and now, where many of us are, the culprit is the PC. You need to climb down from your ladder of superiority and recognize that some of us know quite well how to identify PC damage, which isn't hard, as the scars are quite distinctive.

Re: acetamiprid

I think it's a good tool against lep moths but there is a significant question as to whether it's very effective against PC.

There are a lot of spray guides that group all neonics together claiming they all have high efficacy against PC, but some researchers make a distinction that acetamiprid should not be used for PC control.

From the link below: "This material [Assail] is not very effective against the plum curculio and does not control oblique banded leafrollers."

I use acetamiprid (Assail) but only after spring PC egg laying is over.

Treehugger wrote: " The most damage to stone fruit is caused by OFM and codling moth whom you never see. Yes you kill some the day you spray but others come next day. I gave up on killing adults and concentrated my efforts on preventing the eggs from hatching."

Treehugger,

I responded to your line of reasoning on this subject in another thread, but once again, contact insecticides do have residual activity on CM and OFM. Pyrethroids in particular have activity against eggs, larva, and adults. The adult (moth) need only to land on the foliage or fruit and will absorb the chemical through their cuticle. That's why they are called contact insecticides. They are specifically designed to be highly toxic to the target insects. The insect merely needs to come into contact with the residue.

Spray guides indicate lethal residues of pyrethroids are maintained 7-10 days after application. This seems to be consistent with published data on non-aqueous aerobic half-life degradation of these compounds. For example, the half-life of Triazicide on vegetation is 5 days (Generally 1/2 the residue of contact insecticides is more than adequate to kill the target insect.)

One of the reasons contact insecticides are more effective on lepidopterous pests is that they kill the adults, whereas ovacides and larvacides that must be ingested generally have no effect on the current adult population of the moths.

Here is a link that might be useful: Effectiveness of new insecticides against apple pests in Quebec

Olpea-

I think I've read that Actara (Thiamethoxam) is effective against PC...and of course very effective against their eggs.

Frank,

I've also read it's very effective against PC. For me, the only drawback is that Thiamethoxam (and one of it's breakdown components clothianidin) is very toxic to bees. That's why I only use it well after petal fall and only use it early in the season, so it has a whole year to help with breakdown. As you know it's very slow to degrade.

That said it has very low mammalian toxicity and, except for bees, also has a low ecotoxicity.

Olpea, I guess it's Michigan State vs NY., or maybe there's a difference on how it reacts on stone fruit. Since i already have curcs in my plums, I'm mainly interested in the curative aspect of acetamiprid, and according to MSU, it works.

TreeHugger,

I believe the label for NuFilm17 says far less than 3 TBS/Gal.

It's .08 oz./Gal, which translates to 1/2 TSP./Gal.

H-Man,

Your spray mix has Triazicide, Immunox and Captan, I believe.

Do you reco Nu Film 17 as sticker, when Captan supposedly shouldn't get a sticker?

I use a latex spreader-sticker (Tactic, "organosilicone surfactant deposition agent") as I've read research that it performs better than others and I'm unaware of the idea that Captan should not be sprayed with it. Please tell me what you know. I know that captan is pretty sticky by itself but it washes off enough to be helpful in redistributing as the tree grows, splashing onto new leaves not there when originally sprayed. Maybe a sticker works against this. Haven't experienced any compatibility problems nor more scab problems when I've used it with captan.

The idea behind avoiding captan + sticker stems from the supposed phytotoxicity of captan. Many stickers also have a spreader component which can increase the amount of surface area covered on the leaf, thereby increasing the risk of leaf burn/shot hole.

The label of the product I use (Captan 80) warns against using spreader/stickers, or of excessive leaf wetting. That said, I've used captan quite a bit and never seen even a hint of phytotoxic effect.

Olpea-

What would you use for curative activity (against PC) that also breaks down in a reasonable time (say before harvest)? Is there any neonic that would apply or would you have to use Imidan?

Assail has some curative activity from my reading and although it is not generally recommended for PC in commercial production it seems to do the job well enough for me when I've used it alone.

I've tried to find the researched basis of the recommendations about it but really haven't found anything. Certainly the label includes PC as one of the insects it is effective against.

This isn't to say the the university suggestions aren't correct in their context of commercial fruit production, but they also say that pyrethrins are inadequate against PC. What is inadequate for commercial production may be adequate for home production where pressure tends to be less and standards for the acceptable percentage of sound fruit lower.

Frank,

Although the article you linked earlier didn't rate Calypso favorably, I've always read it was very effective against PC. According to the MSU power point presentation (see below) Calypso even outperformed Actara in PC mortality from residues 7 days old.

According to the EPA Calypso's half-life is considerably shorter than Actara (2.4 to 27.4 days in the field). However, they mention one of the degradation products (YRC 2894) for which they show some concern has a half-life from 32 to 142 days.

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/reg_actions/registration/fs_PC-014019_26-Sep-03.pdf

If you don't have to have kick-back, Avaunt would probably be another good choice, otherwise phosmet or a neonic are going to be the only ones I know of that have curative activity.

Here is a link that might be useful: PC: Challenges, Changes and Management Strategies

I just bought a new bottle of Spectracide Triazicide, but I noticed the label no longer says "Once and Done". I hope it is not a new product.

Anybody know for sure?

Pursuant to the suggestion here, I aquired and applied acetamiprid to my stone fruits today.

Aside from the cherries, if I get any fruit at all, it will be because of this application having kickback effect.

I'm hand thinning right now and noticed I got hit hard by PC, we have had some very warm days and evenings and I was on the tail end of 14 days. I either just have alot of pressure this year or I got my timing all screwed up with the rain vs. hot days. I am disgusted. Thought I had it all figured out. I've been holding back from the Imidan use hoping Triazicide would do the job. Next year, the Imidan comes out or I need to shorten up the interval as soon as I see the heat coming. I don't really see any other pressure yet. On the upside, I have no indication of CAR, so the Immunox did it's job among the millions of galls I had this year. For What Its Worth, Chad

I'm thinning and bagging apples now, too, and seeing lots of PC damage, much more than usual, after one application of triazicide.

What I'm not seeing, now, after spraying permethrin, are any actual PCs in the apples. I usually do spot a few. Hopefully, the permethrin got them.

Just a little PC activity here, but i've been spraying enough to keep a cover on most of my fruit. I'm using Permethrin until i run out.

We've had 8.43 inches of rain this month!

I haven't used the acetamiprid on the apples since I sprayed the permethrin, but I've read it can be used against aphids.

otoh, the aphids I have are the rosy ones, that will probably leave the trees soon without spraying.

Another observation: after spraying permethrin, I was thinning and bagging my Enterprise apples, and thinned first, removing any that showed PC scars. Today I came back to finish bagging and haven't found any new PC marks.

Says to me that the permethrin is doing the job the triazicide failed on.

I just hosed my plums this evening with Permethrin... I plan on doing the apples soon after i tihn them hard... still not much pc damage, but temps look to stay cool for the next few days, so should stay active.

Frank, send some of that rain my way. We had 1 inch the whole month of May. My water bill is going to look like a car payment.

it won't quite around here...Rochester, MN had over 11 inches of rain in May... The ground here is squishy. No one can plant, a lot of my plants are showing N deficiency... Don't need anymore, but more chances this week.

Temps look to hover in the upper 60Fs all week.

PC must not know what to do with weather like this...

Hunza dropped the majority of its fruit again...weird tree.

We had another inch yesterday. Can't get into the garden to weed. Afraid I won't be able to get to the strawberries to pick, if they ever ripen and don't go all to gray mold.

I'm seeing signs of N deficiency in the brassica vegetables, too. Top-dressed with blood meal but I guess it washed away. Don't really want to use liquid fert - more liquid it doesn't need.

Time for more fungicide.

Spectracide Immunox Plus went on a price markdown @ my Menard's store on Friday. 16oz containers for $2.99
Contains 1.25% Permethrin & .78% Myclobutanil.
Is this a normal %age for Permethrin? Seemed like a good deal so I bought several.

North,

Immunox Plus is fungicide + insecticide. You need to check if it's rated for fruit trees or not.

The one I use in a regular Immunox fungicide that lists many fruit trees for its use.

Northern-

Last year i bought the rest of the stock of Menards 32oz Ortho TotalKill ...2.5% ... It was clearance...might have been around the same price. I see they aren't carrying it anymore so its getting tougher to find the stuff (Permethrin). I'm still still finishing up the 6 year old bottle of Permethrin i had (which is going bad ..had chunky stuff in the bottle).

Right now Menards has 11% and if you have Discover card you can get another 5%...

Mamuang: The instruction pages on the Immunox Plus mentions ornamentals, but not a list of fruit trees. It does cover the leaf rollers that I'm having trouble with now though. Does the Immunox for fruit trees have a different, stronger, formula?

Frank: Yes the 11% sale was on so the net price was about $2.66 a pint. Your TotalKill was 2.5%. Should I mix my Immunox at a heavier dose for fruit tree coverage?

Label on this says 2 oz per gallon, so that is what I will mix it at... I also notice it mentions not to spray apples after petal fall..that is so weird... It also says i can put 8 applications on peaches...but only 3 on pears (I don't spray my pears)...

I found PC scars on my pears this year. First time for that.

Sorry North,

I do not know if the % of permethrin would be strong enough.

I still use Triazicide mix with Immunox (regular). Hope those who use Permethrin will let you know.

I saw OFM signs on peaches (I swear they weren't there yesterday) so I did the 2nd spray this evening before I could have time to put footsies on them. These buggers are fast!!

Triazicide is definitely working for me to control PC.
Two years ago I sprayed Malathion and lost 90% of my apples to PC. I also spilled some on the workbench in my shed. It stunk so bad and never went away. I finally tore up the top of the workbench and burned it. Replaced it with a new plywood top. Sometimes I swear I can still smell the stuff.