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prairiemoon2

Planting blueberry bushes, just a little help�.

I want to get three small container blueberries into the ground this morning before it pours. I've been putting it off being distracted with the vegetable garden. My soil is loamy clay and Ph is about 6.2 last time I checked. I already have a blueberry growing, but it's slow going, due to Maple and Spruce trees near by and perhaps the PH. I did nothing when I planted that one.

So, I'd like to amend while planting today. I have some organic sulfur and peat moss and thought I would dig the hole, mix my soil with half peat moss to refill the hole and sprinkle the sulfur on the top when it is done. I know some people say mix it in with the backfill, but there are already blueberries on these bushes and I would like to be cautious not to do anything to upset the apple cart.

Does anyone see anything wrong with my plan or have anything else to add?

Comments (27)

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, and I have a 5 gallon bucket of fresh sawdust I was thinking of mulching with. Yes, no?

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sulfur takes 6 months to work, so on top or mixed will not make a difference. I would do both actually. I have not really used sawdust, so no comment. Otherwise yeah, sounds OK, better than no peat moss. Although it will not take long for PH to shift back, always under pressure, so adjusting PH is a constant thing you should do.
    Planting them out may be shock enough for berries to fall.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    These blueberry bushes are in one and two gallon pots. One has a lot of blueberries already formed on it. Do you think I should wait to harvest the berries and then plant them? The other two just have flowers at the moment.

    I have a rhododendron next to where the blueberry is going that is not really thriving. Would it hurt to sprinkle a little sulfur around the base of that too?

  • Bradybb WA-Zone8
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'd probably wait until after harvest,they've been in there this long.Then the sawdust has a time to age a little also.The bed can be treated now though with Sulfur.
    It seems like they are young plants,a couple years?There may be too many flowers and fruit on them.
    Some Sulfur around the Rhody should be okay. Brady

  • charina
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your plan of 50% peat moss and adding sulfur is reasonable. Be sure to amend a hole well larger than the current root ball - else the roots may never try spreading out further than the amended soil. And, depending how your clay drains, a small amended area could end up creating a "bowl" in the clay where water collects and drowns roots.

    However, if you can keep them in the pots until fall, it might be worth while amending a larger area with sulfur and give it the summer to bring the native soil's pH down so you don't have to deal with differential soil types and the issues that can cause. To bring a 6.5 pH clay soil down to 5.0 in the top 6 inches, 5 to 6 lbs of sulfur per 100 sq ft is a common recommended rate.(sandy or loamy soils require less)

    For established plantings (the rhody and other bbs) recommendations are to not apply more than about 3/4 (0.68 to 0.92 depending on referenced source) pound of sulfur per 100 square feet per year.

  • charina
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Re the sawdust, it is very common in W. OR to use sawdust as the only mulch for commercial bbs. OR State recommends 25lb/acre of nitrogen be applied when 3 inch deep sawdust is applied in order to compensate for the sawdust's immobilization of nitrogen. If my calcs are correct, (you might double check them), that is 1/4 lb (0.27) of ammonium sulfate per 100 sq ft for 3 inch thick sawdust mulching.

  • ericwi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would not transplant a blueberry shrub that was flowering or had fruit on it. I suppose that one could knock off all of the fruit/flowers, and then transplant, but that seems extreme. In your situation, I would care for the shrubs as potted shrubs, harvest the fruit, and transplant around September 15. Blueberry shrubs will not thrive if they have to compete with a nearby tree for moisture. It would be best to plant them at least 25 or 30 feet away from a maple tree.

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    All the advice given is extremely good, I would follow it.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Okay, let’s see what I can take away from all this advice and apply to my situation.

    I did think after I posted initially, that I don’t really want to harvest the berries, because I do grow organically and I am pretty sure the nurseries where these plants were grown is not. So not knowing what might have been sprayed on it, I’m going to let them go. I could then knock off all the berries from the shrub if anyone thinks that is a good idea. And since that is the case, I decided to plant them now.

    So, my plan now is…. 50% peat moss with the native soil to backfill. Large hole. Amend the backfill with sulfur. Mulch with fresh sawdust mixed with fertilizer that is mostly nitrogen. And a dusting of sulfur.

    If I go ahead and plant them now, am I to expect some problem with the plant due to the time lag for changing the PH with the sulfur? And could someone explain why. All I can think is that if the plant has been growing in a pot with a decent size rootball of soil that I assume has the correct PH, then why would anything happen, other than perhaps, slowing down the growth, with a plant that would be resistant to penetrating the surrounding soil that was the wrong PH?

    About the sawdust. If I mulch with fresh sawdust, I can mix it with a nitrogen fertilizer to offset that problem of tying up the nitrogen to break it down, right? Can someone recommend an organic fertilizer I could use? Would alfalfa meal do?

    Eric, ideally I would love to give them exactly the conditions they prefer, but the only place that is 25 feet away from a maple tree is around the foundation of my house facing West. Right now I would not be able to accommodate them there, either. And I was under the impression that Maine blueberries grow near trees, is that wrong?

    I'm also having trouble converting the amount from pounds into cups or Tablespoons. I would like to amend for each shrub and not in one large area. I would assume the size that the shrub is now, that we're talking about no more than a 5ft x 5ft area per shrub. That would be 25sq ft, right? We're not talking about cubic feet for the entire volume of the hole, right? If so, then that is about 1/4 of the amount suggested for 100sq ft. Or about 1.25 pounds of sulfur per shrub. Since I am not weighing the sulfur, I am needing to use either a cup or a Tablespoon as a way of measuring. As close as I could get, was converting into ounces, but I am warned that dry pounds can't convert to liquid measurements of ounces. *sigh* But if I did convert the 1.25 pounds to ounces, that would be 20 ounces or 40 Tablespoons. Ok, I'm lost….lol. What am I doing wrong?

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One pound equals 32 tablespoons
    With sulfur, off a few tablespoons is not going to matter.
    You have a range of PH 4.5 to 5.5.
    The local soil PH will put pressure on the peat and try to strip it of hydrogen, why you might have a problem.
    Adding a tablespoon of salt to Lake Michigan doesn't make it salt water. The same action will happen in ground, the Hydrogen will quickly disperse.
    Sulfur has to be converted to sulfuric acid by bacteria that utilize the reaction for energy(food).
    2 S + 3 O2 + 2 H2O → 2 H2SO4
    Usually takes 3 to 6 months for an amount to build up.
    This keeps happening so the acid maybe converted back and forth, but the element sulfur is still there. Well until it too is slowly diluted out, you will need to add some every year for awhile.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Drew for the help. I hope I am going to do everything right and manage to get these blueberry bushes growing right. :-)

    One last question for anyone….can you save sulfur from year to year or does it go bad after a certain amount of time?

    Thanks everyone for your expertise and time!!

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sure, you can save it for years.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That's convenient, thanks Drew.

  • ericwi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    By removing the flowers and fruit, you have reduced the metabolic demand that the shrub is making on the root system. This will give the shrub a good chance to grow and support the existing leaves. It might even grow some new leaves, and this will support the growth of the woody stems. This is good for the plant, during the first year or two, and it is standard practice among commercial blueberry growers. With regard to competition from trees, Norway maple in particular is a tough competitor for moisture in the soil. It has an extensive network of roots near the surface, and these roots can go out 30 or 40 feet from the trunk. I have grown blueberry shrubs near a Norway maple, but all I could do was keep them alive, I could never get them to thrive. As others have said, "the tree always wins." I can't say if other maple species are equally difficult to live with-a windstorm took down our Norway maple two years ago, leaving a big opening in the front yard. We miss the shade, but we don't miss the tree.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Eric, the fruit and flowers are coming off then. Sounds good.

    As for the trees, tell me about it. [g] I have two Maples on the property, not sure of which variety, they were here when we moved in. In addition we have neighbors on three sides, that have a total of 5 mature Silver Maples, 3 of which are 5ft from our lot line, 6 Spruce trees that are 5ft from our lot line, a White Pine, ditto, and a mature ugly Sycamore that is about 10ft away from the lot line. And we only have a 1/4 acre lot, so you can imagine how densely they are planted.

    As you can imagine, I've had a tough time growing anything here. Lots of shrubs have been tried and removed. So I am growing whatever will grow, not necessarily my favorites. I end up watering a lot and adding chopped up leaves in the fall to keep trying to feed the soil. I haven't invested a lot of money in the blueberry bushes and if they don't perform where they are, which is about 15 to 20 ft from the Maples, but less than10ft from the line of Spruce trees in about 5hrs and 3hrs of sun, then I may decide to try them in the bed on the Foundation of the House at some point.

    Thanks for reminding me of the challenge to grow near these trees, that I sometimes forget.

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You think you have maples, this is the top, yes, only the top of a red maple at my cottage. the Carpenter ants hollowed out the top end, and it is about 15 feet from the house. it had to be removed. The tree was 120 feet tall.
    In the first photo, way to the right, under the crane, behind the house, you can see the remaining tree, it's still huge! Let's not talk about how much this cost...
    {{gwi:109353}}
    {{gwi:109355}}
    {{gwi:109357}}

  • charina
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I know that some hosta growers often go to great lengths to be able to grow hostas under trees without the tree choking off the hosta. Root exclusion baskets, pots in the ground, physical barriers, etc. It can be tough for plants to grow alongside trees and in environs they did not co-adapt with in the wild. Have you considered planting the bushes in a large pot, and then sinking that in the ground? That could address both the soil amendment and the root issue all in one move.
    "If I go ahead and plant them now, am I to expect some problem with the plant due to the time lag for changing the PH with the sulfur? And could someone explain why. All I can think is that if the plant has been growing in a pot with a decent size rootball of soil that I assume has the correct PH, then why would anything happen, other than perhaps, slowing down the growth, with a plant that would be resistant to penetrating the surrounding soil that was the wrong PH? " The addition of peat will go a long way to making an immediate improvement in the pH in the root zone, and has a reasonable chance of covering you while waiting for the sulfur to be metabolized. The longer-term issue is ion transfer that will happen and tend to equalize the pH between the amended zone, and unamended surrounding soils. I don't know how fast that will occur, and it is dependent on your water and watering practices in part, but it seems to stand to reason that the sulfur will begin to be converted to sulfuric acid before the amended zone is depleted of free H+ ions and raise the pH too much - esp since you have a generally favorable native soil pH. Eventually even the mix in the current root ball will raise in pH. So, there is more of an issue than roots simply not spreading. Given your native soil pH, and water that is likely higher than 5.5 pH, it will be necessary to amend continually with some sort of sulfur source over time to keep resisting pH creep to equalize at 6.2.
    "About the sawdust. If I mulch with fresh sawdust, I can mix it with a nitrogen fertilizer to offset that problem of tying up the nitrogen to break it down, right? Can someone recommend an organic fertilizer I could use? Would alfalfa meal do?"
    Not I. I'm not of the organic persuasion . . . but let's not derail the thread topic. What you can do is determine the percentage of nitrogen content of whatever source you want to use, and calculate the amount necessary to provide .057 lb of nitrogen per 100 sq ft for 3 inch thick sawdust mulching. For Ammonium Sulfate, that is 1/4 lb since AS is 21% nitrogen. If your source is only 3% nitrogen, then 1.9lbs would be the suggested rate. And for 25 sq ft (5X5), that is 1/2 lb of a 3% nitrogen source. Simple right? Haha I wouldn't sweat the exact rate in relation to the sawdust. Esp if you incorporate your nitrogen source into the amended soil hole, as that nitrogen will be under the sawdust, and the sawduct will not absorb it before it can filter through to the root zone. The need to feed the sawdust is more in relation to top dressing with fertilizers. It's not like bb's need much nitrogen to do well. It is more about being able to encourage some growth on them. I bet if you incorporate some organic nitrogen source in the hole along with the peat, you don't really need to do anything about the sawdust. Commercial growers want to as they often apply granular nitrogen sources via broadcast, and want their bushes to grow fast.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OMGosh Drew! I am glad you got that out of there before it fell and flattened your roof. I have not gotten estimates on having tree work done, but have heard others on GW report what they paid and it is quite a hit. Sometimes we don't have much choice but to spend the money. I hope you can feel good about making the right decision and find a way to replenish your funds. :-) AND….I hope you enjoy mucho benefits in the garden from that removal.

    Have you had an expert look at the other tall tree to make sure that is healthy? I hope you don't have to remove any more trees for a long time.

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The tree is still there and alive. i just removed the damaged portion. I treat it for the ants, but they in the end will take it. I have trees fall all the time. My electrical service has been replaced 5 times, and my roof pierced 3 times
    {{gwi:109359}}

    Back to subject
    "The addition of peat will go a long way to making an immediate improvement in the pH in the root zone, and has a reasonable chance of covering you while waiting for the sulfur to be metabolized."

    I would agree with this. It will take some time to for the hydrogen to disapate from the peat. The peat may keep releasing it too.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Charina, those are good suggestions about using baskets and pots and physical barriers. It’s just that I’ve taken the approach of disturbing the tree roots as little as possible and using small plants so I didn’t have to dig large holes in the root zone of the tree. It is actually very difficult to dig even a small or moderate size hole, let alone a large one. And after much discussion with others who had experience with Silver Maple trees, there really is very little in the way of a physical barrier that could stop their roots. [g] So I’ve taken the approach of right plant right place, thinking there has to be plants that will grow in these conditions.

    And I haven’t done too bad. After a lot of experimentation, I have Cornus racemosa, Blue hollies, Viburnum ‘Wentworth’, Oakleaf Hydrangea and Clethra all growing well close to the trees. I’m trying to get a Rhododendron established and even that is going better than I expected after a slow start. I think my PH is more an issue with that right now. And I’ve found a number of perennials that do fine.

    As for the peat being added to the blueberry planting, I’m glad that will be a pretty good solution short term. I wish I had done that with some of my Rhododendron experiments. I may go back and replant a couple of them.

    I have been reading posts on watering the blueberries with acidified water, adding vinegar to it. Is that something you think would be beneficial and would it have any drawbacks?

    When you say ‘amend continually’ you mean adding sulfur once a year? I would imagine in the Fall? And if I am adding sulfur once a year, is there going to be any drawbacks to doing that? I read something about salts building up, but I didn’t really understand that conversation.

    As for fertilization to offset the sawdust mulch, I would be adding organic fertilizer with low NPK composition as a topdressing periodically anyway, so that perhaps will not be a big issue.

    If I miss the mark somehow, the plant will probably tell me that pretty quickly, would you say? And at the point where it shows any signs of a problem, could I correct it then?

    Drew, I have never actually lived in a wooded location, I wonder if your experiences are typical of living in such close proximity to so many trees? When I was a kid we moved a lot, maybe 12 times, and never had the roof pierced by a tree or had to have the electrical service replaced even once. [g] I'm glad no one has been hurt. I wonder if you sleep with one eye open. :-)

  • charina
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Acidification of water: I think it depends on the pH of your irrigation water. Some have pretty good success managing the pH creep caused by irrigation through the annual application of some sulfur source. If your water is mild, that might work just fine. In my case, I have chosen to use sulfuric acid as the water here in UT is high in pH and alkalinity. I haven't tried it, but I'm not impressed with what I know of the chemistry of using vinegar. It causes a reduction of pH, but that can be reversed in the ground. In pots, or water with little/no free bicarbonates, it's probably fine. It works, it's just not ideal in my opinion, and insufficient for my situation. But it's a lot more simple than sulfuric acid.

    Amend continually: Yes, an annual application of elemental sulfur, or as many in the non-organic herd do, apply ammonium sulfate as the nitrogen fertilizer and sulfur source. The sulfur won't do much through the winter as the bacteria metabolism is slowed/stopped. Spring applications are typical. I have read of the possible salt buildup related to sulfur. Just read it again the other day, but can't recall all the specifics. At low rates of application as would be necessary in your situation, I don't think it is of a concern. I'd be more worried about trying to use manure as a fertilizer going the organic route adding non-beneficial and excessive salts than sulfur.

    Watch for iron chlorosis. I've wondered a couple times if your rhody or existing bb's might be showing any signs. Lighter green / yellowing leaves with darker green veins. That is a fairly sure sign your pH is too high for their ability to uptake iron. Other issues should be pretty obvious through the leaves. So yes, you will get signals fairly quickly something is amiss.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, here in the East, we have acid rain, right? But I can call my town water department and find out what the Ph of the water is.

    Definitely will amend with the sulfur in the spring then, thanks. I don't use manure as a fertilizer, I use compost or Seaweed/Fish Emulsion, Alfalfa meal or Espoma sometimes.

    I actually find my blue hollies show a flush of leaves turning yellow and dropping. But not with the darker green veins. Haven't noticed that on the Rhodies either. And I have a blueberry bush already planted the last two years with no amendments made. No iron chlorosis on that either. Although the entire bush seems to be a lighter green to me. I will try to take a photo of it. And I will probably take photos of the new blueberries and how they look at planting time to compare to later.

    Thank you! :-)

  • edweather USDA 9a, HZ 9, Sunset 28
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't think the acid rain is like it was in the past. I've checked the pH of fresh rainfall a couple of times recently and don't get anything lower than 6. Most municipal water pH numbers seem to be around 8, including mine, and fairly high in bicarbonates.

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My rainwater is 7.0 I've been adding acid to the rainwater too! I live in the Detroit area surrounded by auto factories. A major side effect of clean air is neutral rainwater :)

    it makes me wonder if it really was that bad, like everything else, it's usually spin, and has little to do with reality. Much like the ozone hole, global warming etc. The sky hasn't fallen yet!

  • BlueberryBundtcake - 6a/5b MA
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would not call myself an expert on blueberries, but I thought I'd share my experience with them anyways.
    I have three blueberry bushes ... a Jersey that's several years old now, a Blue Gold that I got last year, and a new Top Hat that is in a pot.

    From what I've read, the best time to plant blueberry bushes is late April to May, but my Jersey was planted well after that, and it did just fine.
    The state of your blueberry actually sounds pretty similar to the state that I planted my Jersey in. Ideally, a blueberry plant shouldn't be permitted to fruit for a year after its been planted, but I let my Jersey finish producing its berries, and it did fine. It was a decent sized plant when I got it, though. I have just let it flower and fruit every year, thus far.
    The Blue Gold came as a much smaller plant, and I probably shouldn't have let it have any berries at all last year (I let it have about 3-5.). I'm not letting it have berries this year, as in addition to having been small, it lost the top of one of its canes to some hungry animal towards the end of last season; it's recuperating nicely, and it should be ready for production again next year. Depending on the size of your plants, you might want to give them a year off from fruiting ... just let them flower to cross-pollinate with the other blueberry, and then take the flowers off to let it focus on growth. If they're pretty big, though, you probably don't need to worry about that, though (like my Jersey).

    As for soil pH, I do very little for my blueberry beyond mulching with pine mulch or needles, and it seems to be doing quite well; it's probably doubled its size over the past couple years. I have a bigger problem with my lilacs (which want sweet soil), though, so maybe I just have naturally acidic soil. I think I have some old litmus paper somewhere ... maybe I'll have to do some testing.
    The thing that I've notice that makes my blueberry happier is watering it, so it may be that your blueberry is thirsty ... in theory, more watering will also help the blueberry produce bigger berries. (So long as it's well-enough drained to keep the roots from rotting.)

  • Time
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have 23 hours of college credit in chemistry and all I can say is: "It hasn't done me a bit of good when it comes to growing blueberries." I use 40 to 50% pine mulch and the rest native soil as my planting bed. This seems to work best in keeping the pH in that optimal range. Sulfur makes the pH gyrate and I think actually stuns the bushes at times. Every year I throw pine bark and pine needles at the base of the bushes and that is about it. Using sawdust and cypress mulch does very little to lower pH (compared to pine mulch), because its pH is close to neutral. Actually, the pH thing is something to be aware of, but probably overblown. Blueberries are very low maintenance bushes. I do keep my pH in the 5.5 to 6.0 range but I don't loose sleep over it fluctuating a bit.

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Time, that still is a little high 5.0 range would be better.
    I must say for me the battery acid in the water is so easy to maintain the right PH, makes it super easy.