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glenn_russell_gw

Imidan Source

glenn_russell
14 years ago

Hi All-

Another GW member found a source for Imidan and was nice enough to share it with me. Thanks Joe! See link below.

I have already ordered mine, and it has arrived in perfect condition. Everything about the package looks new. I looked for a "born on" date on the package, but couldn't find one. The seller has a 100% feedback rating over 11,000 transactions, and if you look at their store, you can see that their business is garden chemicals. They say that the Imidan is "Fresh and New", and I can't see any indications to the contrary.

Even though I have obtained it, I may not use it any time soon. This is more of an insurance policy More of a "Going to buy it now while I can because normally I canÂt find it may not use it right away but keeping it on hand in case I need it". I have a good place to store it where it should always be between 50-80 degrees.

In my yard, somehow I've managed to avoid PC and other nasty insects so far. I'm wondering if being religious with the Bonide Fruit Tree spray spraying after pedal fall though the time I bag has protected me? If so, it's the ONLY thing that crap is good for. And because I've never let the buggers get a foothold, they've never really set up camp?

I've recently agreed to help a friend with an orchard (about 30 trees, 9 years old) that has gotten out of control. Despite his best efforts of spraying of the Bonide FTS 15 times a season, it does nothing to control CAR, and he didn't know what to do, and gave up 2 years ago. I now have a solid plan for him of Kocide3000& oil spray and then a couple Immunox sprays. This Imidan may come in handy if the insects turn out to be bad in his orchard.

I also got some 2.5% Permethrin for myself the other day at the local hardware store in the form of Bonide Borer Miner Killer as recommended by theaceofspades. I suspect this is what IÂll be using in the future instead of the Fruit Tree Spray.

In my 6 months of looking for Imidan, I had actually searched eBay a couple of times, but it was never there before. As I understand it, (from HarvestmanÂs posts) Imidan isnÂt nationally restricted, but there not making it in home-grower quantities. From one of DenninmiÂs posts: "Imidan apparently is still on the market, but the problem is getting it shipped to you. I inquired at an online company I've purchased from before, and the owner e-mailed me back and said they are no longer selling it because neither the USPS nor UPS want to handle it because it's caustic and requires special hazardous materials shipping and handling. I didnÂt ask the seller about any of that.

I think it was Joe who asked the seller how much Imidan they had and this was their response: We have several bags of Imidan, and my distributor has ordered in more so I will be able to ship as many as are ordered. Thanks so much, and also thanks for your patience! Best wishes, Hope

Oh, yeah, even through a sealed bag that stuff stinks!

Thoughts?

-Glenn

Comments (96)

  • olpea
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Generally organophosphates (like Imidan) are somewhat more toxic than pyrethroids. However, commercial pyrethroids have about the same LD 50 values as Imidan (LD 50 is the lethal dose in which 50% of the rat population dies from acute exposure). Triazicide concentrate would have a much higher LD 50 value (safer) because it's a much weaker concentration, than anything sold commercially (Proaxis). Keep in mind many household products would also have LD 50 values, i.e. nail polish remover, drain cleaners. Even dish soap would would be lethal if you drank enough. The key to the margin of safety is level of exposure.

    After reading the EPA decision, and comparing Imidan to other pesticides, it doesn't appear to me Imidan is significantly more dangerous than other insecticides, as long as REI and PHI are followed.

    Imidan carries a "Warning" signal word on the label. Some formulations of the common fungicides captan and chlorothalinil, carry the more severe signal word of "Danger".

    Comparing Imidan to gamma cyhalothrin, the pyrethroid does have lower acute toxicity. Other than that, the only real difference seems to be that Imidan, like all organophosphates is a cholinesterase inhibitor. Imidan is only listed as a possible carcinogen, which given all the proven carcinogens out there, is a pretty good rating.

    However, comparing Imidan to the common household pesticide Sevin, except for acute toxicity, it appears that Imidan is the safer. Carbaryl is listed as a carcinogen and a cholinesterase inhibitor.

    Imidan's label for pet usage has been cancelled (probably because of the somewhat higher acute toxicity than other insecticides). Some formulations of permethrin and carbaryl are labeled for pets.

    All that said, water soluable packets are not designed to be opened and individually metered out. If one chooses to do this, extra precautions, like a respirator are probably in order. The dust in the packet is probably very fine, as such, it may be easily inhaled.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Olpea, thanks for that, very generous of you to go to the trouble of such a thoughtful report. Now you'll have me running to review labels. I don't recall Captan having a Danger rating.

  • olpea
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Hman,

    I'm not sure all captan labels carry a Danger rating. The Captan 80W I use, does. I assume it carries a Danger rating because of the risk of permanent blindness, with eye exposure. I use Captan 80 because, unlike some Captan 50 formulations, Captan 80 has a 24 hr. REI, vs. a 3 day REI for other formulations.

    For chlorothalinil, I have Echo, which also carries a Danger rating. I don't know why this particular formulation carries such a severe rating. I think you use Bravo, does it carry the same?

  • franktank232
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm just buying a bag of chew and adding some water and using that for my all purpose spray :) Grandma lived 86 years being a chain smoking, mean alcoholic. :)

    Olpea-
    How do you figure when to spray? Do you watch growing degree days, traps, or just have set times you spray?

    I've been watching gdd here, but may order/build some traps too.

  • olpea
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Franktank,

    RE: Tobacco

    Well, whatever works. The oldtimers used to use blackleaf 40. As Lucky once pointed out, I imagine there were some racing heartbeats applying that stuff.

    As to when I spray, my situation is probably different than most people. There are lots of unsprayed stone and pome fruits around, which produce lot's of inoculum. Additionally, there are bean fields 1/4 mile away that produce lots of stink bugs. We get tons of rain through spring, and a fair amount through summer. In other words, there is a continual flow of insects from nearby sources. Additionally, one day I hope to start selling peaches retail. I've sold a bit of other fruits this season, and last. The high expectation of high quality fruit demands a rigorous spray program. This year I've been spraying some fairly soft stuff, and as a result have a significant amount of catfacing on my peaches. I've resorted to Mustang Max to get a general kill down. I should have used it sooner.

    In short, I spray as tight an interval as one week, or as long an interval as two weeks, depending on the rain. This year, with the weather we've had, the interval has been closer to one week.

  • franktank232
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ouch... My peaches look pretty good and i've yet to spray them :)

  • myk1
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I remember when "tobacco juice" was often suggested in organic circles.
    I don't know when they figured out they were basically making Blackleaf 40 but they started putting all kinds of warnings along with it and eventually stopped recommending that.
    But it was "organic".

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Olpea, what's Mustang Max? That's not a commercial name I'm familiar with. The stuff here recommended for stinkbugs is all restricted, but catfacing here is usually not excessively destructive. The stinkbugs sometimes make a real mess of Seckel pears, though. I just grit and bear it because I really hate bringing out the heavy poisons later in the season.

  • olpea
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mustang Max is restricted, but I have my applicator's license. Mustang Max is a pyrethroid, but research suggests it is one of the more powerful ones. One of the commercial publications said Mustang Max could be sprayed at a 3 day interval with heavy earworm pressure on sweet corn, whereas, other commercial pyrethroids like Pounce should be applied at 2 day intervals (pesticides must be applied on very tight intervals for sweet corn, as the moth lays eggs primarily on new silk, and the silk grows quite rapidly, so it's a challenge for growers to keep the new silk covered with insecticide residue.) Mustang Max lists a wide variety of fruit and veg. crops on the label. It is labeled for stink bugs. As with other commercial pyrethroids, it's very cheap. About 3 cents per gal for a full dilute spray. The drawback of course is mite flares on pomes, which would probably make it a non-starter for you. With the rain we get here, I don't think mite flares are quite the problem, as the rain washes both the mite and the pesticide off.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Olpea, I only wish rain was useful in preventing mite flare-ups. Although dry dusty weather is supposed to encourage mites and scale, when I use Sevin on Jap beetles I often get mites shortly thereafter- even last year when a week didn't go by without heavy rain. This year I may include some summer oil if I have to deal with JB's at sites with mites. It's been so cool that I will probably be able to. However, I'm not sure if it will be affective.

    You don't happen to know any poisons for JB's that aren't so harmful to beneficials? Cornell doesn't even mention this pest in its guidelines. I also have an applicators licence- cagegory 3A, so I have access to whatever's out there.

  • olpea
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Hman,

    I thought about emailing you personally, because I'm not sure if other folks are getting bored with the direction of the thread, but I decided to post again here in case there are others interested. My apologies, if this is becoming dull and dry to some.

    The new issue of Scaffolds recommends Assail, Calypso, or Sevin, for Japanese beetle. You mention Sevin is no good for you. That leaves Calypso and Assail. I don't much about Calypso. It is a neonicotinoid and thus, a systemic. However, according to some info. its residue has a stronger plant surface profile than other neonicotinoids. This may make it a bit harder on beneficials, but it is recommended by Cornell. I've used Assail a couple times this season. It's also a neonicotinoid with systemic action. Supposedly it can cause mite flares, IF, used in conjunction with pyrethroids. One time a day or two after using it I noticed some dead lady beetles on the foliage, but they may have been there when I sprayed, or landed on wet spray. Another time, a few days after spraying, I noticed a live and healthy Assassin bug on some foliage. I know they don't eat mites, but I viewed its presence as a good sign. Assail is not restricted, but has the words "Ag Use Only" on the label. I'm not sure if Calypso carries those words.

    I'm wondering why you don't just use Imidan for Jap beetles. Is it not effective? Assail is about 1/2 again more expensive than Imidan. Based on your figures above, it looks like Imidan runs about a dime per gal of finished spray. Assail is about 16 cents. It isn't any significant difference to me, but you manage a lot of orchards and it may be a big deal for you.

  • djofnelson
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Olpea and Hman, I'm definitely learning a lot (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), so please keep going.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I believe Imidan is not labled for Jap beetles and not recommended by Cornell. I called Mike Fargione, the Cornell commercial fruit production guru, and he recommended Calypso as you suggested Cornell does. He noted that there were no warnings in the literature in front of him about flare-ups which was at least a positive sign.

    The cost of materials is not that important (with a few exceptions like Esteem, which costs about as much a gold). My clients are mostly multi-millionaires and I can easily pass on a few extra bucks per orchard. These orchards are mostly less then an acre.

    Don't think you have to worry about boring anyone else, anyone who took the time to scroll to the bottom has to be fascintated by the general topic.

  • olpea
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, it's been a long time since I've looked at the Imidan label, since I don't use it, but the current Midwest spray guide recommends Imidan for Jap beetle. I also have an older (2007) Michigan spray guide, and it gives Imidan, as well as Guthion, an "excellent" rating for Japanese beetle. I wonder if Cornell is simply trying to stay away from organophosphates.

  • olpea
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just started looking at Michigan's latest CAT advisory. There is an article in there about Japanese beetle control. Looks like they are still rating Imidan as excellent for JB. Pretty good article.

  • glenn_russell
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Olpea/Harvestman/all-

    Olpea - Thank you for that great report above!

    So, perhaps the latter part of this thread has made me feel a little less paranoid about Imidan, and perhaps a little more paranoid about every other insecticide out there!

    So, from what Im seeing here, Imidan is most dangerous in its powered form, and not much more dangerous than plenty of other insecticides when its actually being sprayed. So, when Im transferring the water soluble packets to coffee cans (like Don recommends), thats when I need to be most careful. Ill use my respirator, face shield, gloves and a change of clothes, and Ill do it outside, away from any highly trafficked areas. Ditto when extracting the small amounts of powder to mix in my tank. When I spray, Im used to wearing my respirator, hat, & face shield, so Ill continue to do that.

    Whats the significance of boots as protective clothing? I can see the other stuff, but do we know what the reasoning is here?

    I found it interesting that Phosmet appears to have been registered (in the past) for direct use on dogs, but it is no longer registered for that purpose due to the risk for toddlers in contact with said dogs. In my conversations with Michael357 he gave me a link to the "Reregistration Eligibility Decision for Phosmet" Im sure you guys have read it, but for me, its a bit dry and made my eye lids heavy. :-)

    Are there any clogging concerns once it's in the sprayer? Like Ferbam? I'm using the Solo diaphram backpack sprayer that Don recommends.

    Olpea- I know you do some commercial growing, correct? But, just out of curiosity, how is it that you are "so wise in the ways of the force"?.. I mean pesticides? I know you have your private applicators license, but is there something else in your background? Or are insecticides/fungicides just a hobby for you? :-)

    Harvestman Have you ever had the need to get your private applicators license? Or have you been able to control everything for your customers using non restricted chemicals?

    Really guys, great information here. For some of us, its a little like drinking from a firehouse! By all means, keep it going for as long as its fruitful!

    Thanks again guys,
    -Glenn

    P.S. Ive gotten a few email requests to subdivide the order If anyone else was hoping for that, Im afraid Im not ready to do that at the moment, so hopefully this comment will save you the effort. Thanks!

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In NY you need a license to apply anything in a business , even Surround- even with a back-pack sprayer, I believe. Imidan is restricted in NY and I need my license to get that. It's the only restricted pesticide I use besides rodent bait.

    If you use Imidan, be sure your water isn't alkaline- use a buffer if necessary to get your best bang out of it. Best if the pH is below 6 and it's important that it is below 7. Check the label on this- it does mention it.

    Rubber boots are used because while walking on dewey ground the Imidan can pass right through your boots- at least that's why I use them. They call for them in mixing because they are much easier to clean without pushing the Imidan inward to the inside of the boot.

  • theaceofspades
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Harvestman, as a homeowner in New York I have to post pesticide 'Do not enter flags' every 50 feet(200 ft road frontage). I have to notify neighbors(by law) before I spray if they request it. Anything(Horticultural oil, sulfur) sprayed on trees is regulated by the NYS DEC.

    Olpea says he sprays every week. Lets say I bought this Phosmet(Imidan) in a foil four pack labeled for industrial use.
    I put a pound in a coffee can for safe keeping. I spoon it into my tank wearing my rubber boots, face shield and respirator. I walk around my yard looking like Haz Mat spraying stuff into the air that smells like a stink bomb. I got to make sure no pets or family play in the yard for the next three days. The stuff persists in dry conditions like in the house for as long as DDT. Then I got to worry about the neighbors cat getting autopsied. Breast cancer has the highest national rates on Long Island. Many local organizations come to my house for donations blame pesticides. Years ago I gave them a donation. I told them what I do for a hobby to get them to stop calling and it worked.

    Last weekend I sprayed the third Permethrin Mycobutinil Nu-Film 17 only because it has been raining a lot lately. I found a pear and a peach with worm inside. Maybe ten flagged tips just on the 'Flat Wonderful' peach tree. My main concern is the overloaded branches breaking. I am cross tying ropes and adding support posts. It has been a perfect year in my Orchard.

  • bart1
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    About 40 messages ago, Don said he was using less than 1/2 TBS per gallon. If I were using a 1.5 gallon sprayer, what would that equal in Imidan?

    1/2 tablespoon and 1 teaspoon?

    Thanks,
    Bart

  • myk1
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wear rubber boots with everything because it's impossible to spray my trees without walking on the wet ground at some point in the game. Rubber boots are easy to wash off.

    So the way I read that RED is Imidan is only illegal for home use because it is not consistent with labeling to, break open the WSP packaging or use it in residential areas other than for fire ants (sorry harvestman, I don't think your lawyer-eze is going to work to change residential to residence) and (according to another document) spray it within XX feet of a dwelling.
    The way they managed to do that without actually banning it is to pressure the maker to stop making amounts for home use and home use concentrations available so there would be no label suitable for home use.

    Basically they made the problem worse for those who will use it. Instead of Bonide Imidan WSP people who will use it have to break open 100 gallon WSP of strong percentage.

    I'm left scratching my head wondering how they figure 10 gallons per homeowner fruit tree. But then again they use the worst case of the homeowner barefoot, shorts and a cigarette hanging out of their mouth while spraying.
    That's the government for you.

  • franktank232
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm wearing something like this when i spray Sevin...

    {{gwi:109667}}

    I've got a young child so i'm done spraying anything except Mycobutanil in the spring for CAR and i might try a Neemix or a homemade tobacco spray and want to try Surround (early for PC) and then bag everything i can.

  • glenn_russell
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Bart-
    There is a great free program that I use for doing all my conversions: Google "Convert.exe". It converts all sorts of volumes, and about 25 other categories.

    I think you are close, but not exact. The way I see it, at that rate, you need 0.75 Tablespoons for a 1.5 gallons. 0.75 Tablespoons is also 2.25 Teaspoons (because there are 3 tsp per tbsp). If you subtract off your 1/2 tablespoons, and you're left with .75 teaspoons instead of 1.00. For me, the 2.25 teaspoons is easier to visualize.

    Be sure to check my arithmetic... it's late... and the wine was good.
    -Glenn

  • olpea
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow,

    I logged on tonight and saw the thread is up to almost 70 messages. We keep going and we're going to break a hundred. Well here's one more contribution.

    Glen,

    I'm not sure I really know all that much about pesticides. I did a lot of research before I started using them. Hman knows more than I do. He has his commercial applicator's license, whereas I've only got my private applicator's license. Plus, he's been doing it for a long time.

    On the boots, Hman's right, the concern is the pesticide soaking through the the material, or absorbing it. The EPA has different categories of Personal Protective Equipment. Believe it or not, even the type of gloves required is strictly defined, depending on the material being sprayed. Off the top of my head, some of the materials are Viton and butyl rubber. There are four or five different types of glove material. Each one is for a different category of material being sprayed. Some of the better quality materials are approved for several categories. I can't remember of the top of my head what type of gloves I had to have, but they weren't real expensive. 20 bucks for 3 pair, or something like that. A pair of regular old rubber mud boots is fine for what you'll be spraying. I could go on and on about headgear and respirator requirements, but I don't want to overwhelm, and it sounds like you are using common sense and plenty of caution. I think you'll do fine. Quite frankly, you are way ahead on safety compared to what most farmers use. They've done surveys, and unfortunately, the most protective equipment most farmers use, is leather gloves, and a ball cap.

    In terms of tracking it into your house, if you observe REI, I don't think you'll have much to worry about. In the EPA final decision, they talked about workers entering the field after 3 days and working all day in the stuff thinning fruits . In the decision, I'm sure they realized those workers have homes to go to. If you observe the REI, any amount you track in your house will be insignificant compared to an ag worker. Again, just about everything is toxic at some exposure level, but some things are hot buttons that instill paranoia.

    Again, Imidan doen't seem to me it is any more dangerous once it's applied, than many other common pesticides, as long as REI is observed. Did you know chlorothalinil, captan, and as I mentioned, carbaryl, are all listed as carcinogens? Furthermore, captan is approved for use in dipping harvested apples to prevent storage rots (gasp!). I should point out, apples must be machine dipped, hand dipping is not allowed.

    There are poisons and carcinogens all around us, even naturally occuring in food. Gasoline, some construction glues, some mold inhibitors in paints, all carcinogens. Did you know drinking water contains lead? In fact, lead occurs naturally in most soils. Something like 40 lbs./acre ft. Drinking water also contains radioactive material. Our drinking water contains Uranium. The EPA knows all this and regulates amounts to keep exposure at an acceptable margin of safety. True, some folks may not feel comfortable, with their margin of safety, but it seems to me, arbitrary, to single out pesticides as the one area to scrutinize their methodology.

    Glen, perhaps we need to sit back, drink some of your wine, and smoke a pack of cigarettes. We want to make sure we're doing this while applying pesticides.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    With clear logic and some careful research you can go a long way if you don't start off by putting all your energy into proving what you believed in the first place. Olpea is proof of this to me- but then, he thinks like me on the issue of relative risks of pesticide exposure. To me his logical deductions are like a breath of fresh air.

    I was once a proponent of organic orthodoxy. I'm not saying here that clear logic and research can't lead to seperate answers but yesterday I was talking to a landscaper who didn't want to work under trees I had sprayed with Indar because he's just not comfortable with chemicals. He told me this while smoking a cigarette.

    Mykl, I'm still waiting for you to make one phone call to your states DEC pesticide enforcement center and see how they are enforcing the law. It really doesn't matter how either one of us interprets the law, but how law enforcement does. I have made the calls because I can't afford to be mistaken. It's not about losing an argument but losing about 10 grand and maybe my license.

    If I was trying to grow fruit trees in suburban Long Island, I don't think I'd use Imidan. Homeowners are not required to post warnings to my knowledge- only commercial sprayers. Is this a town ordinance?

    If I was only spraying a few trees, I wouldn't bother wearing a mask. Just a wide brimmed hat, rubber boots, nitrile gloves and coveralls. The mask is for breaking up the bags of powders.

    Get your gloves and boots from Gemplers. Nitrtile is the material for gloves using the pesticides we've mentioned here. You can pay under $3 a pair. Sportsmans Guide has the best price I could find on heavy cotton coveralls.

    Wash spray clothing seperately (not with the babies diapers).

  • myk1
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And I'm still waiting for you to make a phone call to the EPA. That's who made the rule not any state's environmental agency. You're the one with the real stake in the truth.
    It's not the cop on the beat you need to talk to, it's the lawyer in the head office.

    Since this was through the EPA why wouldn't someone who's not trying to twist things to suit their wishes and has their livelihood riding on it just write to the EPA and ask for clarification? But of course that would put you on their radar and you might discover that if the feds want to enforce a law they will, or they'll simply call up your DEC and tell them to enforce it.
    Why would I put myself on the ILEPA radar when joe-il said he'd check with a neighbor that works for the ILEPA? I have no stake in Imidan and if I did I would go at it knowing and admitting I wasn't following the rules.

    Read the RED. It's pretty clear that it says this was a voluntary withdrawal.
    It's pretty obvious that breaking open WSPs to mix them in less than 100 gallon batches is not in accordance with the label. That itself is against federal law according to the label.
    It's your business so contact the people who matter not the people who will tell you what you want to hear.

    What you seem to refuse to understand because I'm not saying what you want to hear is I think the rules are stupid the way I read them or even the way you read them. I would like some 1-3 gallon Imidan WSPs sold in homeowner sized packaging, I would like 25 gallon WSPs for you. I am not saying it should be banned, I am saying that without actually banning homeowners from using it through licensing they managed to make it against the labeling through pressuring the maker.

    I have not been addressing any chemical risks, only the law of the label. But I guess it's easier to create an argument to tear down than to argue against the facts presented.

  • franktank232
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wore latex gloves (like they have at a hospital) when i sprayed.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mykl, I don't break up the bags- I dissolve them in a gallon of distilled water treated with a buffer and have the Imidan label attached to an insecticide jug containing the dissolved Imidan and try to use it up in a day (my tank's 25 gallons). I used to cut open the bags years ago.

    It's interesting how the Imidan label says that use in public parks is prohibited (very clear wording there) and then it states "not for residential use" instead of "residential use prohibited".

    Anyway somewhere in Article 33 of Environmental Conservation Law I read that the legal def. of residential use was use in a residence. If it wasn't so boring to go through the thing I'd give you the page. You'll just have to wait 4 years when I have to take the dam test again.

  • joe-il
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Havent talked to my friend yet, he's been busy with a train derailment that leaked 6 carloads of ethanol into the kishwauke river that caused a fish kill.

    This thread has been a great read and would like to thank all of the pro guys for taking time of their busy season to help us noobs.

    from the epa site:

    * lower seasonal maximum application rates
    * prohibition of phosmet application until after certain high-exposure activities have occurred
    * a 25-foot buffer zone around occupied dwellings for ground applications
    * a 50-foot buffer zone around occupied dwellings for aerial applications
    * health protective entry restrictions for pick-your-own operations

    http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/phosmet/phosmet_summary.htm

    everything you wanted to know about phosmet but were to paranoid to ask lol
    http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/phosmet/

  • joe-il
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    another good read is here. (old from '02) But I think most over the counter/box store pesticides will be gone in 10 years.

    "Our book of pesticide recommendations for residential uses is being whittled down to a half sheet of paper written on just one side. Our recommendations for residential insecticides can almost be summed up in one line, "Use a pyrethroid, imidacloprid, carbaryl (Sevin) or malathion." All four of these options have serious disadvantages. Pyrethroids exacerbate problems with mites and scale insects. Additionally, some groups are already calling pyrethroids "endocrine disruptors." Using the words "endocrine disruptor" and "children" in the same sentence will become as bad as handing out cigarettes in day care centers.

    Imidacloprid seems to have a strong potential for pest resistance, and it is very mobile in water. Carbaryl is very toxic to honeybees, and it is a carbamate insecticide (the group next in line for the FQPA guillotine). Malathion simply does not provide satisfactory control for many pests.

    Finally (if things were not already dismal enough), the loss of the popular organophosphate insecticides will trigger increased residential use of the remaining options. Increased use will translate directly into greater potential exposure. Therefore (finally my logic class paying off), risk estimates for the remaining insecticides based on the new exposure parameters may also exceed EPA levels of concern, which will trigger additional regulatory activity against the remaining alternatives. In other words, we are not out of the woods yet. If everybody substitutes a pyrethroid for every current OP use, children could be exposed to increased levels of a group of chemicals labeled by some as "endocrine disruptors."

    On the positive side, people may begin to understand how farmers feel to have chemical tools snatched away. Perhaps people will learn that an effective IPM program may depend upon a key pesticide. And maybe, just maybe, a few people will understand that adequate pesticide management is not always possible without pesticides."

    http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/entomology/pestnewsletter/NL-mar02.htm#the%20epa%20released

  • Michael
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mykl: I believe part of what Hman is saying (in my own words following) is that the gods on Mt. Olympus (Fed. EPA) hand down the edicts to the states and it is up to the states to follow through with and enforce them. His rightful (IMO) concern is with his state, not with what the Fed. EPA has written. I deal with this situation in my profession with water quality issues. My state has to do what it can to enforce the federal laws regarding water quality. I have read the edicts on this from Mt. Olympus and then seen personally how my state enforces them. There is a difference. My paramount concern is not Washington but Topeka and Salina.

    Hope this helps,

    Michael

  • myk1
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Harvestman,
    It actually says, "Not for use in residential areas."

    If you're right on their definitions they should have to change their wording before they could do anything to you.
    But reading through the history of these changes I know what the government means and I've learned to not trust the government to follow their own rules and to expect you to do what they meant.
    I think before the voluntary removal of residential packaging the plan was totally removing the fruits listed for residential removal for everyone. The original U-Pick proposal I read from a U-Pick org was to totally end its use for U-Picks.

    I don't know how your millionaires are but here they buy up cornfields and divide them into 10 acre estates. As long as they don't get themselves zoned residential to push the farmers further out and to stop hunting I'd say it could be used there as long as the trees are the 25' from the dwelling.
    I don't think you'd get away with saying my neighborhood wasn't a residential area. 3 of my trees are within the buffer zone of my dwelling at at least 1 each for the neighbors.

    Joe-il,
    That '02 write up is what has me thinking about stocking up on Triazicide when I see a sale. I see that day coming too, especially with the pyrethroids. They're lasting too long, are a problem in the water, and think about the children.

    Michael357,
    But we're not all from the same state and Olympus is who made the rule. If you're lucky enough to have law enforcement that thinks the laws are stupid and won't enforce them it doesn't change the rules, it just makes the people in that area luckier than they probably realize.
    Going back and forth on the state differences makes as much sense as Harvestman needing a license in NY and not needing one a few miles away across the border.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Joe-il and Michael357 thanks for your elucidation. More fresh air for my brain lungs.

    Mykl, thanks for the label clarification. Too much I rely on my memory for specific details but the crux of my point is the same. I have a friend who became a NYDEC pesticide division enforcer and I know that the feds don't have an enforcement arm that reaches me. It is the state that interprets and enforces the law.

    However, one thing that Mykl has made me mindful of is that should someone sue me for something they blame Imidan on, Gowan might well be able to leave me hanging with that "not for use in residential areas" line. If I use the pesticide to label instructions they are the libel party if they can convince a jury that I didn't, who knows?

    It all seems so murky- NY allowing Imidan use for class 3A applicators who are presumed to be doing their business in the logical definition of residential areas. Ditto for landscape contractor supply businesses that sell to the the people who maintain residential landscapes.

    As far as backyard growers losing legal options to control their pests- don't lose hope. Hopefully Avaunt will become available soon- right now it's labled only for agricultural use. Trouble is that these new materials cost so much more than the old reliables. It's just like the pharma industry that way- you have to pay for all the research and licensing expenses and expanding profits.

  • franktank232
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I thought PC early in the season doesn't fly as much and that is why those tedder? traps can help monitor them?

    The only "organic" approach to PC that i've seen is Surround. I have to spray something next year...

  • Michael
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hman: You are welcome, hope I captured the essence accurately.

    Myk1: I understand and appreciate your 1st sentence. On your second point, I think it is often a matter of what a state is able to do more than what they think of a federal agency ruling or federal law. I.E. if the fed. decided all roads must be paved and left it up to the states to get it done in 10 years, KS would never be able to comply with the law. Our county is about the size of RI and has 2 paved highways running through it, 98% of the rest are dirt and 1% some sort of aggregate. The total population is less than 3000. And that is just one county. Some in Washington think that paving the roads would be a great health benefit as far as particulate matter is concerned.

    As far as state differences are concerned, well, they exist and it is an interesting phenomenon, at least on the surface it doesn't make much sense. I suspect the Fed is aware of states' abilities to carry out their federally imposed responsibilities.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    PC flys as soon as they emerge. First appearence is often from PC that came from elsewhere. In the northeast we only have a 3 week PC season, max in my expereince.

  • theaceofspades
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Mutagenic effects: Almost all tests of phosmet on bacteria indicate that it does not cause any mutations [90]. However, there is a suggestion that workers producing the compound Safidon[Phosmet] show some changes in their chromosomes [8]. A definite conclusion cannot be drawn from current evidence."

  • franktank232
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cut open a few dropped peaches yesterday... Found a worms in each one. I'll have to keep picking up any drops. The worms were both alive still, but i squished them. These must be PC.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Having reread label I found nothing that indicates opening bags violates directive of label- that is, nothing that says not to open water-soluable bags to measure smaller batches. I think it would be a stretch to call doing so illegal although a logical argument could be made that the lack of instructions about opening the water soluble bag would make doing so inconsistant with the label. I seriously doubt such an enforcement would be applied in any state.

    The NYDEC likes chasing after petty violations to levy hefty fines, however- especially on large landscape companies. Homeowners wouldn't need to worry though- most you'd get is probably a warning and even that seems highly improbable even if your neighbor was a DEC cop and saw you doing it with his binoculars.

  • myk1
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like what I see in the Avaunt label, mainly that grapes are listed. It's too few applications and too long between but at least grapes are there. I'm having problems finding anything effective that's approved for grapes.
    I like the re-entry for apples, 12 hours for the commercial grade is do-able. Again it's too little for curculio, codling moth and apple maggot all together but my apple maggot seem weak enough that Bonide Fruit Tree works so anything that would be a good second or third cover for curculio through codling moth would be welcome.
    I hope they do make a home version.

    I think DC is clueless about the rest of us, michael357, not that they don't expect us to be able to do those things.
    And knowing cops, there is some law enforcement that won't enforce unless they are specifically ordered to.

    "It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling."
    Nowhere does the label describe anything but dropping the WSP into 100 gallon tanks.

    I never figured homeowners were at risk unless they happened to have an organic activist with some friends in high places as a neighbor.
    If I wanted to spray Imidan I would, just like if I wanted to dump used motor oil around my foundation I'd do that too. Just like I have fires whenever I want because the city's rules only allow burning when the garden is growing.

    While I think your arguments for what constitutes "residential" and what constitutes "inconsistent with the label" would be the only arguments your lawyer could manage to press, somehow I don't think "they didn't tell me not to" will work against the government in a government court. That only works when suing a toaster company because they didn't tell you not to make toast in the bathtub.

    The fact you keep on stretching tells me you know what is meant just like I do and you're looking for loopholes.

    I used to think a friend was being paranoid worrying about the ILEPA when someone throws plastic into his burn bin or dumps something in a ravine until I saw news reports of them going after things just like that. The government is hungry for money so I wouldn't put anything passed them.

  • franktank232
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wonder if we get to a point where a place such as WalMart doesn't even carry pesticides? I could see a system where you need to be licensed to buy most(all?) sprays. Ever see the forms you fill out to buy a gun? Pretty soon they are going to ask for blood, fingernails and a piece of your hair :)

    I wonder how it works in Europe?

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No Mykl, I honestly don't know the meaning of their wording. "Residential areas" is quite vague and not an adequate legal category. The law isn't supposed to be based on such unclear wording and NY state, which has an extremely aggressive pesticide enforcement apparatus, is allowing Imidan to be used in "residential areas". There is no confusion on this point.

    If this was statute, they would say not for use within a specific distance from a residence. Other pesticides like Avaunt have on their label "for agricultural use only". I honestly think the manufacturer may have used the wording in hopes of limiting their liability without limiting their sales. Keep in mind that they do not use the word prohibited either.

    I think you missed your calling- you'd have been a great DA

  • theaceofspades
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    DIRECTIONS FOR USE
    It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.
    Do not apply this product in a way that will contact workers or other persons, either directly or through drift. Only protected handlers may be in the area
    during application. For any requirements specific to your State or Tribe, consult the agency responsible for pesticide regulation.
    Not for use in residential areas. Use in park or recreational areas is prohibited.

  • joe-il
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Didnt get much help from my ilepa neighbor. Pesticides are not his speciality. He refered me to the local extension office.

    Its funny they can aerial spray imidan 50ft from your house, but you cant spray the tree in your back yard?

    Gowan didnt renew the license for private use, that is why you dont see imidan 12.5 wp at home depot or walmart. Maybe the sales were not profitable enough, maybe liabilty to high-who knows. It was not an epa ruling. There is nothing in the Epa's "final" guidlines to suggest you cant use in residential areas. The closest they come is 25'boundry from a house.
    I believe the "not for residential areas" is a gowan "cover my arse" much like how McDonald's puts "contents hot!may scald skin dont pour on lap and sue us for 5 million dollars 'cause now we told ya" It would not be illegal to pour on lap, but you cant sue because you were warned. That is why you see the 2 different wordings.
    1)"Not for use in residential areas" is a warning, spray on a tree in your backyard and a dog or kid gets sick dont blame gowan.
    2) "Use in park or recreational areas is prohibited" there are laws on the books and you will be bubbys little jail "friend" if you get caught.

    If this is not the case then why didnt gowan just say "use in residential areas and Use in park or recreational areas is prohibited" (that would make it very clear)

    really I think i would rather spray something with a long track record then some of the newer stuff that they know nothing about. Maybe my logic is wrong.

  • theaceofspades
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Not for use in residential areas. Use in park or recreational areas is prohibited."

    The label also says Imidan is not to be used on U-pick Orchard operations. They don't want any untrained people coming in contact with Phosmet.

  • alan haigh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No, it says 10 REI for UPicks. 10 days seems to be the big # that indicates chemical persistance. It's kindof a good and bad thing.

  • myk1
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    14 days for U-pick. The original proposal was the complete ban for U-pick.

    The original proposals are what tells me what they mean and the voluntary removal is an attempt to avoid that.

    And since you're obviously following along, Joe, I saw my first Apple Maggot fly today (flying, not trapped).

  • joe-il
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    thanks myk1. Are you getting japanese beetles ? they have gotten thick now, dripping off small trees.

  • theaceofspades
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Apples
    -The user shall not authorize any person who is not covered by the Worker Protection Standard (WPS), such as
    members of the general public involved in "pick-your-own," "U-pick," or similar operations, to enter a treated area for 14 days after application.

    Grapes
    -Do not enter or allow entry into treated areas during the restricted entry interval (REI) of 14 days.

  • julie123fromhigbee_yahoo_com
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is the first time I've visited this blog and have been reading with great interest. We have a small commercial orchard (380 semi-dwarf apples)and spray with a 65 gallon pull behind sprayer. My concern is with fruit or foliar damage with higher rates of Imidan, particularly when you get close to the 90 degree cut off on temperature. Have any of the midwest growers encountered exterior damage on some varieties of apples?

  • smokinjoe09
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    http://www.directgardenseeds.com/p/80/imidan-70-w-p
    This is their description and directions for mixing:
    Buy Imidan 70-W-P online! For insect control on fruit trees. One of the most effective and economical commercial spray available to the home gardener. Use 1½ tsp. per gallon. Water pH should be lowered to 4.5-5.0.
    A rule of thumb is ½ c. white vinegar per gallon of water. This greatly enhances the effectiveness of this product. Do not touch with wet hand.
    Note: This product is not avalible to customers in Alaska, Wisconsin, or New York.

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