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msmorningsong

Where's Bamboo Rabbit when you need him? ;)

msmorningsong
9 years ago

The title is to get his attention. :)
I am getting ready to purchase four, 30 gallon size blueberry plants for zone 10A. They look healthy, and guy grows a lot of them. Here's the current Craigslist ad:
http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/lee/grd/4497135952.html

Want to know what size raised bed, (including height) to place them in for permanent residence. I tried my hand at blueberries a couple of years ago with no success. I want these to work out. I have read through hundreds of posts, and think I have a grip on this, but planter size has not come up in what I've read. Also, can I use a soil-less mix, mostly peat...what amendments would you add? I've already read about the battery acid stuff for watering, can I use vinegar instead? What do you think?
And thanks for any help offered. I need it.

This post was edited by MsMorningSong on Tue, Jul 1, 14 at 7:19

Comments (41)

  • Kevin Reilly
    9 years ago

    Those look good as is. I wouldn't mess with them, 30 gallon pot is plenty of room. You can partially bury and then you have your raised bed :)

  • gonebananas_gw
    9 years ago

    I remember the wild huckleberries in pine flatwoods (redundant, I know) on probably acidic sands in northern Ft. Lauderdale. I wonder if anyone cultivates those low-chilling native species?

  • Bradybb WA-Zone8
    9 years ago

    I think bamboo_rabbit digs a hole in the sand,about three times wider than the root ball and uses Pine bark fines and Peat moss.
    I believe he said a friend grows them in 60 gallon plastic barrels that are cut in half.
    Yes,vinegar can be used.Brady

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    He also uses sulfuric acid to treat his irrigation water- alkaline water is the main issue there, apparently.

    You can probably find the formula by searching the archives.

  • msmorningsong
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    My problem here is root knot nematodes, don't want these touching native soil, so will have a solid bottom (with drainage holes and raised planter/feet).
    Like the idea of barrels cut in half, but want to use wood for aesthetic value.
    Harvestman, yes, my water is bicarbonate, so have to do something about that, hopefully vinegar, but at what proportion to say, a 22 gallon container for dipping out and hand-watering?
    *30 gallons is enough? I have all the pine bark fines I want. What about pine bark nuggets as well?
    Just wondering if I should trim root ball upon purchase, should I trim top-growth to match if I do this?

    This post was edited by MsMorningSong on Tue, Jul 1, 14 at 7:17

  • fruitnut Z7 4500ft SW TX
    9 years ago

    Ms Morning:

    Find one of bamboo's posts, click on his handle to get to his page, and send him an email thru gardenweb. He answers quickly IME. And he has experince setting up just what you want regarding RKN and bicarbonate water.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    You should do as FN suggests. He will love to help you with the water issue, I'm sure. Vinegar is not very affective from posts I've seen on this site.

    You can also use sulfur pellets, which is the most common and convenient way of dealing with this issue, although BR strongly advocates for sulfuric acid. Also, you can capture rain water from your roof for water that will not sweeten your medium.

    Trimming rootballs is usually only done with dormant plants that have circling roots- I doubt your plants have that issue. Instead of cutting back the plants, remove flowers (now fruit) to help the plant concentrate on establishing.

  • milehighgirl
    9 years ago

    HM, I think I remember the post you are talking about.

    I always thought Denver had hard water but boy-oh-boy, Florida is much worse. The one thing going for it is that rainwater is in abundance, unlike here. I've used up all my rainwater,

    Here's another post too:

    http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/flgard/msg1019560921772.html

    Here is a link that might be useful: Self taught Chemistry lesson for making acidic water

  • ericwi
    9 years ago

    To make your irrigation water acidic, you can use 5% white vinegar from the grocery store, or you can use citric acid, also available at the grocery store. However, these two organic acids break down in the soil, probably as they are consumed by bacteria. To keep the soil acidic, you have to keep adding more acid, about every two weeks. The advantage to using sulfuric acid for lowering the pH of your irrigation water is that the soil pH will be more stable over time. Since blueberries grow best at pH around 4.5, the irrigation water should have the same pH, or, be between 4.5 and 5, if possible.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    eric, I don't believe the vinegar has worked for folks no matter how much they've added, although I have zero experience with it- Reliable info sources recommend sulfur and I've never seen vinegar recommended by a credible source. It wouldn't be that restrictive to have to add it every time you watered if it actually worked. Anyone?

  • charina
    9 years ago

    Sulfuric acid deserves and demands respect, but it's really not so incredibly bad as sometimes advertised.

    I'm using 98% sulfuric acid, and on about a weekly basis, I put on the goggles, break open the bottle, and mix up a gallon of dilute (21 ml per gallon of water in my case). This gallon of dilute is WAY too strong to use on plants (pH somewhere in the neighborhood of 2), but very safe to have around, and work with. Then, I can add that to my irrigation water to adjust the pH. Having this gallon around isn't too different than having vinegar around. No kid is going to drink it (very sour - yes, I have tasted it), and it isn't going to burn your skin off. Yet, it's strong enough that a cup or two may be all that is needed for amending a watering can.

    I don't bother using gloves or other protection any more (but I will never skimp on the goggles - absolutely necessary IMO). On a couple occasions I had 98% sulfuric splatter on my bare skin as I got careless with the plastic pipette catching on the lip of the container I'm transferring it to, and the pipette flinging a bit onto my arm. Not a big deal. You feel it, it stings a little, but is easily sprayed off. Not even a red mark left.

  • charina
    9 years ago

    And, for general reader's sake . . . the general rules of sulfuric acid always apply:
    1) keep the concentrate in a secure location out of the reach of children,
    2) always use eye protection - this is the one area where the acid can do a real number on you,
    3) don't allow it to come in contact with metal,
    4) add small amounts of acid to large amounts of water. Don't add water to acid as lots of heat is released when they mix, and there is some risk of a boiling reaction. Along with this, when mixing my dilute, I've learned not to use water from the hose that has been sitting in the sun heating up. Use cool water to put the acid in as using hot water may result in a bit of steaming and minor splatter.
    5) always be prepared for an accidental spill - only open the container of concentrate in locations where spills can be contained safely, and there is running water readily available.

  • gonebananas_gw
    9 years ago

    I am surprised that vinegar is not used more routinely.

    This reference would suggest that the reaction product (an acetate) is of low toxicity and no other problem is obvious.

    https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/id/id-412-w.pdf

  • msmorningsong
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Gonebananas,
    I read your link and it's about salt and tolerance (or lack) for plants. Did you have a link with a study of use of vinegar water?

  • gonebananas_gw
    9 years ago

    The "calcium magnesium acetate" it mentions is essentially what you get when you react vinegar with hard water or limy higher-pH soil. Thus its toxicity (or lack thereof) seems to have implication to the use of vinegar for acidification.

    Additionally, I have never read any warnings about nearby root harm from using strong horticultural vinegar as a leaf herbicide. This too weakly implies no particular harm from use of vinegar for acidification.

  • msmorningsong
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thank you Gonebananas. I really do prefer using vinegar, and this clears that up for me.

  • charina
    9 years ago

    1) why are you asking for BR's input when he would tell you with no uncertainty about the proper way to acidify water? But then try to avoid his recommendation, which you must be aware of, having read hundreds of posts?

    2) the linked to flyer has NOTHING to do with acidification of water or pH management! Relying on such in order to properly care for blueberries is asking for a second failure.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    Yes, Morning song, you have not gotten any credible endorsement that shows vinegar can be used successfully to counter your high alkaline water and no one who participates in this forum has ever made an endorsement of it based on actual experience with high alkaline irrigation water that I know of.

    Believe me, we'd all like to get by with the safest, cheapest ingredients and if vinegar was sufficient, I expect your county extension agent would advise you to use it. Why not call your cooperative extension if contradicting statements here leave you confused?

    I suggest you gather and water with rain water and use sulfur pellets if the idea of using sulfuric acid disturbs you. Perhaps pellets alone can even be used to counter your tap water adequately. They are often the only thing recommended in commercial production guidelines.

  • mhayes8655 zone4mn
    9 years ago

    This is my 3rd year growing bbs, currently have 25 bushes including Bluecrop, Northland, Duke, Chippewa, and Sweetheart. Been adding elemental sulpher, various fertilizers for acid loving plants, and Miracid. Mainly irrigated with city water ph about 7. Up till this year I've kept them alive but they haven't thrived. Most of my ph readings were around 7, sometimes low 6's a few days after fertilizing, then eventually back up to 7. This year I started adding 4tbsp of white vinegar to a 2 gallon watering can(which my ph meter reads as about 5) every time I water. My bb bushes have never looked better, or grown so fast. When I take ph readings now(letting the soaker hoses wet the soil with ph 7 water) I'm consistently getting readings in the 4.8 to 5.7 range (best ever for me) Pretty happy with the vinegar, i'll probably use about 8- 10 dollars worth this year. For me its definitely making a big difference. I'm sure sulphuric acid works great too. Thanks all for your great contributions to the forum. I've learned a lot.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    A pH of 7 is relatively easy to work with, my blueberries thrive in soil where the top half is in the mid 6's and the base is 5.5 (I don't irrigate them and depend on rain). An increase from 7 to 8 pH is huge (it means the water is something like 10X more alkaline, as I recall). Still, I believe many growers in alkaline soils with very alkaline water rely on sulfur pellets and not sulfuric acid. There is also the question of the existence of free lime in some soils as discussed in this link.

    A question I have, mhayes, is whether you have any anecdotal experience that separates the affect of the sulfur you are using from the vinegar? It takes several months for the pelletized sulfur to affect pH readings but it is well known to be affective. Sulfuric acid is just quicker.

    I spent a lot of time trying to sort this out via the internet looking for any actual studies and couldn't find credible sources that either endorsed or rejected the use of vinegar for this purpose. I'm curious if this isn't just one of those internet myths or if it is genuinely affective.

    There is so much clouding of the waters on the internet created by anecdotal but mythological testimonials, and I would not want this forum to slip into a confusing exchange of gardeners hunches.

    It would also be more relevant to a grower in Florida if the anecdotal experience was based on similar conditions.

    Here is a link that might be useful: altering soil pH

  • milehighgirl
    9 years ago

    This is a quote from Bamboorabbit from the link I posted above: "For those advising vinegar it does lower the PH but is only temporary. When soil bacteria act on the organic acid the bicarbonate it was "holding" is rereleased in to the soil and the PH goes back up. When you use sulfuric acid the bicarbonates are burned away, they are gone."

  • charina
    9 years ago

    One molecule of bicarbonate and one molecule of sulfuric acid will react to create one molecule of gypsum, two of water, and one of carbon dioxide. Not quite "burned away", but close enough. Fortunately, the gypsum is relatively stable, and keeps the calcium atoms bound in the gypsum.

    I haven't looked into vinegar quite as deeply as sulfuric acid, but I believe the end result is water, carbon dioxide, and calcium acetate. The issue is that calcium acetate is not nearly as stable as gypsum, and can break down in soil, releasing the calcium as an ion (ie raising pH).

    In my mind, vinegar's place is in very well draining pots, or soils that are very well draining. Perhaps a raised bed primarily composed of milled pine bark over sand fits this bill. But that is not a given, and I don't find support for it.

    Edit: A quick search notes that not only is calcium acetate readily broken down in soil, it is sometimes used as a liming agent to raise pH!

    This post was edited by charina on Wed, Jul 2, 14 at 13:22

  • charina
    9 years ago

    Ms Morning Song: Two potential solutions for you.

    1) send me just enough $ to cover supplies and shipping, and I'll send you 4 gallon bottles of diluted sulfuric acid of equal, or just greater strength than vinegar. It would be just as safe as vinegar to use, and less dangerous to your body (from pH) than a soda.

    2) perhaps what you want is citric acid. Although more expensive to use than sulfuric acid, it a) is not as strong (less risk), and b) can be obtained in a dry crystalline form that is easy to measure and dissolve in water.

    Some articles that include info on citric acid use:
    https://extension.umass.edu/floriculture/fact-sheets/adjusting-alkalinity-acids

    http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/hil/hil-558.html

    http://www.rd2.co.nz/uploads/Citric Acid article.pdf

    This post was edited by charina on Wed, Jul 2, 14 at 17:23

  • gonebananas_gw
    9 years ago

    Vinegar seems to be used occasionally by knowledgeable persons, but not commonly. Why only relatively rarely, I am not sure.

    "Soil sulfur, acetic acid (vinegar) and citric acid are the only acidifiers that are acceptable for organic blueberry production. "
    http://ucanr.edu/repository/CAO/landingpage.cfm?article=ca.v059n02p65&fulltext=yes

    "Vinegar or citric acid solutions may also be applied
    through drip lines to provide acidity."
    http://vegetolab.com/web/document/bleuet/ORGANIC+BLUEBERRY+PRODUCTION.pdf

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    Thank you Charina for your illuminating explanation. I wonder why GB didn't refer to it in his last comments.

  • inkfin
    9 years ago

    Charina,
    There is something wrong with all three links you posted (articles that include info on citric acid use); it takes me back to GardenWeb Fruit & Orchards Forum

  • charina
    9 years ago

    Ooops! Try them now.

  • charina
    9 years ago

    "Vinegar seems to be used occasionally by knowledgeable persons, but not commonly. Why only relatively rarely, I am not sure."Perhaps the missing link is the nitpicky technicality between "provide acidity" and neutralization of the free ions in highly alkaline water/soil. Dealing with alkalinity for ericaceous plants is a whole 'nother game than watering regular plants in a gritty mix.

    Don't you think, with how numerous university extension pamphlets about growing blueberries are, that some portion of them would list vinegar as a potential solution, given how inexpensive, safe, and readily available it is to the home gardener, if it had a snowball's chance of appropriately dealing with the issue? Or, even ONE of them would suggest trying it? No, only a few rare references to organic production use, written by certified organic proponents, not blueberry specialists, bother mentioning it.

    This post was edited by charina on Wed, Jul 2, 14 at 17:36

  • ericwi
    9 years ago

    I have been growing blueberries here in Madison, Wisconsin, since around 1994. For the first 8 or 10 years, I was using 5% white vinegar, from our local grocery store, to lower soil pH. The plants survived, and grew, but they did not thrive. When I finally bought a pH meter and began testing the soil, I found pH values between 6.8 and 7.2, lower than our native soil, which has pH around 7.6, but not optimum for blueberries. It took me a while to locate a source for agricultural sulfur, at a price that I can afford. I had to buy a 50 pound bag at a farm cooperative located a few miles out of town. These days, I rarely see a pH test result over 5.5, most tests are between 4 and 5. Using sulfur, the soil pH is more stable over time, as compared to using vinegar. Soil pH does slowly rise, and an annual pH test is required to monitor the process. There is no doubt in my mind that it is possible to kill a shrub with sulfuric acid, vinegar(acetic acid), or sulfur. It's important to know what an appropriate amount is, and to use some kind of reliable measure. The main advantage to irrigation water that has been treated with an acid is that the pH is immediately lowered, in a matter of seconds. When using agricultural sulfur, it takes about 30 days to see improvement in the color of the blueberry leaves, and it takes an entire growing season to get the pH down by a full point. Agricultural sulfur requires time and patience, but then, so does gardening, in general. I have not used vinegar on our blueberry shrubs in recent years, but if I had a plant that needed an immediate and dramatic drop in soil pH, in order to survive, I would certainly do so.

  • mhayes8655 zone4mn
    9 years ago

    Hi harvestman, anecdotal experience? All I know is I planted the bb bushes spring of 2012. Started using sulpher pellets (from a big box store) to lower the ph later that summer (about a handful around every plant) 2 applications in 2012, 3 in 2013. Last year my ph readings were consistently 7, sometimes a few plants ( maybe 3 or 4 out of 25) read low 6's a few days after fertilizer was applied but would soon thereafter rise back to 7. Read every thread on this forum about bb's and ph, as well as other info sites. My amateur hypothesis is that I was "washing" the acidity out of the soil watering regularly with city water, and I determined to try and adjust my water ph b4 putting it on the bb's. Been using Vinegar a little over 2 months and now all my ph readings are low 5's and high 4's. Huge difference from last 2 seasons, plus my plants look better (deeper green, not as light green or yellow) than ever, and look to be growing faster and producing better than ever also. Could this be the cumulative affect of adding the sulphur pellets for 2 years? Possibly. I guess If I took like 5 plants and didn't use the vinegar on them I could find out for sure. Thats the extent of my anecdotal experience. Hope its somewhat useful to others.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    mhayes, what are the sulfur pellets you are using specifically? Did you read what Charina posted? The danger appears to be that the build-up of calcium in your mix may not be leaching out and you will reach a tipping point where the pH can no longer be lowered by any means if you rely on vinegar. I have no idea how long that might take to play out but I'd be concerned.

    Sulfur pellets are used by commercial growers on a regular basis that have irrigation water as alkaline as yours. Why would it work for them and not in your pots?

    We are all in love with our anecdotal insights and probably genetically wired be this way, but actual researched information trumps these observations frequently enough to validate scientific method. Research never lies, although it is frequently misinterpreted or over sold.

  • mhayes8655 zone4mn
    9 years ago

    Harvestman, not sure of the brand specifically. Got it at one of the big box stores (menards) comes in like a 2 lb bag. Might have been schultz garden sulphur for lowering soil ph. Used the last of it a week ago when I fertilized. Since I naturally have a higher ph soil I figure I'll always have to add some as a supplement from time to time. I don't consider vinegar water a replacement for garden sulpher, but adding it to my care regimen has really seemed to help.

  • gonebananas_gw
    9 years ago

    I wonder why GB didn't refer to it in his last comments.
    ======

    Out of politeness. The "chemistry" in the explanation is both naive and incorrect. But so is far too much of the "chemistry" offered up by posters. The forum is a far better source for observation and experience than for accurate explanation.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    mhayes, I was just wondering if it was elemental sulfur or one of these mixes that contain sulfur and gypsum, which is more common at those kinds of places.

    GBan, well it looks like you've abandoned politeness. There is nothing impolite about correcting someone's mistake (at least not in the culture of my part of the country) but calling someone wrong and naive without explanation seems pretty coarse to me

    I've received many a valuable chemistry lesson on this site, but I didn't come here with any background on the subject beyond what is taught in basic botany..

  • ericwi
    9 years ago

    To my knowledge, a bag labeled "elemental sulfur" would be 100% sulfur. Agricultural sulfur, at least, the two different suppliers that I have dealt with, is 90% sulfur, and 10% clay. I guess the clay is supposed to help the sulfur dissolve in the soil. I don't wish to make a complicated subject even more complex, but it can't be helped. Getting a good, trustworthy pH test result is not trivial. If one is using a pH meter, the electrode might need to be cleaned, before and after testing. The meter will need to be calibrated, using solutions of known pH. The water used in sample preparation should be distilled or reverse osmosis de-ionized. To my knowledge, there is no metal probe type "pH tester" that is considered to be acceptable for laboratory use. But the plants don't lie. If the leaves are green, and the shrub is putting on growth, that's a sure sign the pH is somewhere between 4 and 5.5.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    Eric, my thriving blueberries are in a soil that is 6.5 at the top and 5.5 about 14 inches down.. The nearly neutral top is probably the result of 23 years of composting wood chips I spread as mulch most years.

    If I made a composite sample I guess it would be around 6, so it all may all be more complicated still.

    Yes, the agricultural suppliers sell 90%, but home garden centers often sell something called soil acidifier with sulfur rather bold on the label, as I recall, but closer inspection reveals other ingredients. I bought some by mistake when I forgot to bring my own sulfur to an installation of BB's.

  • gonebananas_gw
    9 years ago

    A number of cactus growers seem to use and be happy with vinegar-acidified tap water. (Google --> acidifying water vinegar cactus)

    A complaint is that it takes too much vinegar once the volume of water gets to tens of gallons.

    Given that blueberries and other common acid-loving woody plants usually need a lot more water than cultivated cacti, maybe this simple inconvenience of volume and cost--rather than any alleged inability or incompatibility of vinegar--is what underlies its rarer use.

  • charina
    9 years ago

    So, we have gone from deicer measures, to non-calcifugen cacti in very low CEC mixes as our measure of what to use on blueberries?

    Aceitic acid is readily available in high concentrations. Still, it is rarely suggested as anything other than for clearing deposits in drip lines. Never as a pH amendment for blueberries.

    Where is BR when his strait shooting could provide some more fourth of July entertainment in response to this 'stuff'?

  • MrClint
    9 years ago

    MsMorningSong, please let us know how your blueberry plant out went.

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago

    I find this thread amusing. Vinegar isn't used by most of us because the effect is temporary. mhayes8655 when you measure the PH next spring, it will be over 7 again. So you'll have to start the vinegar early and heavy. Eventually you'll have to add more and more as the bicarbs reform in your soil. Yes, it works, but only for a short time. You are not removing the bicarb, that is the real problem. You will soon discover this as your plants may do well a season or two, but soon the bicarb built-up will be so large the vinegar will fail to work. Sulfur removes it. It no doubt is what should be used.

    OH, I grow cacti too, and I use sulfuric acid, as the same thing happens as with blueberries.
    Here's one of my babies...

    This post was edited by Drew51 on Mon, Jul 7, 14 at 2:29

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago

    Here's another....