Return to the Fruit & Orchards Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Posted by mk-in-ohio 5b - N/central Ohio (My Page) on
Tue, Jun 5, 12 at 20:19

Like many people, I live in an area with WAY too many squirrels. I just purchased a Yates and have read somewhere that they could finish ripening off the tree. This seems like a solution to the squirrel issue if it works. Thanks in advance for any input you can share.


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Most of American persimmons are ripen on the tree. According to John Gordon, Geneva Long could ripening off the tree.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

The idea of early harvesting of persimmons is potentially a powerful one for solving the problem of losses to squirrels. I like the means of using the tree's natural defense to our advantage. I looked at this last year and tested several American persimmon varieties but found that the quality of the fruit ripened off tree was not satisfactory. I don't recall whether I tested Yates, though I will be sure to test that and Geneva Long this year. I will say that in the past I have ripened wild persimmons off tree with good results, so it may be a matter of finding the right variety and picking as late as possible, just before the squirrels decide they're edible.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Creekweb,

John told me Geneva Long taste almost like Kaki. What is your thought of the taste? I had 8 fruits but all of them drop this year.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tonytran, the Geneva Longs have pretty good sugar content and lose their astringency relatively easily but just don't have that good butterscotch flavor of Yates or Osage or Prok. They're good enough though that if they were the only ones I found that could maintain quality with early harvesting and so be protected from the squirrels, I would plant more.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tonytran - thanks for the idea of a Geneva Long. Currently I have a Dollywood from England Nursery, planted last fall and small but growing this year, and a Szukis from One Green World planted last spring. It was slow to grow last year, but this year has really taken off with lots of new branches and leaves. Still short but very nice foliage. What persimmons are you growing?

Creekweb, I really appreciated your report of ripening Asian persimmons indoors. I would grow a Saijo if I thought it would survive here. I am in old Zone 5b, new zone 6. Looking forward to the results of your experiments this fall with ripening Geneva Long and Yates off the tree.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Mk,
I am doing a cold hardy trial on Kaki persimmmons in zone 5A. So far I have Rossyanka, Nikita's gift (fruited), Ichi Ke Kei Jiro (Fruited), Giant Hana Fuyu (fruited). Newly grafted Sheng, Greatwall, Tam Kam, Giombo, Kyung san ban si, and Honan Red. All the Kakis grow about five feet from the south side of the house with winter protection and the benefits of micro climate. I have lots of American persimmons: Meader, Yates, Prok, Korp, Geneva Red, Geneva Long, Szukis, Early golden, Garretson, NC-10, Mohler, Lena, Kninghtville, Claypool c-100, F-25, H-120, J-59, and Jerry Lehman U-20A, WS8-10, 100-42, 100-43. I am in the process of doing a cross with Jerry help. Possibly in a 2-3 yrs I hope to cross Prok, Geneva Long, Korp, and Knightville with G2m or F-58 or C-100. There will be a lot of seedlings to grow.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Thumbs up for your trials with oriental persimmon varieties in your area. It seems you have success with some of the most coldy hardy kaki persimmons. Did not you think about planting varieties like Giboshi or Hokkaido? Should be also quite hardy, by data in literature. What was the minimal winter temps in you area? Perhaps after severals years, the older trees will be more cold hardy and you could make cold hardy trials without making winter protection. Good luck and let us know about the results.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tonytran - Wow, you have an amazing number and variety of persimmons! I would be really interested in what you are doing for winter protection, and will be watching for any results of your trials that you post in the future. Great that you have gotten several Asians to fruit. Maybe I should try a Saijo.

Thanks for your post -

MK


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

MK,
I summer pruned the Kakis to keep it max height of 8ft. In late november, I mulched the base of the trees about a foot up, and used a big tarp from home depot and wrapped the whole tree and stuffed it with dry leafs and secured with duct tape. I unwrapped the trees in the first week of Feburary when weather won't dipped down in -10F. In addition, that will also prevent early budding by exposing the trees to cooler weather. Hope that will help you.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Thanks, Tony, that is a big help. I wonder if Saijo can be maintained at 8 feet? I think it is supposed to get to 15-20 feet tall.

One more question for you - what month do you do your summer pruning in?

Thanks again,
MK


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Mk,

I think Scott Smith keeps his Saijo and all his Kakis at about 8 feet also. I prune my in the end of june. I think with fruit tree you can maintain any size you want by summer prunning.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tony - thanks for all the great info.

Looking forward to your future persimmon posts.

MK


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tony,
I also have a lot of persimmons planted in NC, both asian and american types. I would love to know hwta your favorites are so far especially with american varieties?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Hi Shane,

I really like Yates, Garretson, Prok, Early Golden, Meader for the rum taste and I can't wait to try Jerry Crosses. He told me they all are very large and tasty.

Hi Indicente,

The lowest temp in the last 20yrs was -23F in 2009 and my kakis survived with protection. I probably test out the two variety you mentioned next year.

Hi MK,

Summer pruning will keep the Kaki small and still get fruits.

Ichi Ke kei Jiro


Giant Hana Fuyu


Nikita's Gift


Giant Hana Fuyu


Ichi ke Kei Jiro


Multi grafted American Persimmon tree


Multi-grated Pawpaw tree with Jerry Lehman own pawpaw crosses.


Saturn Peaches


Bagged Red Delicious


Grafted Kakis on Giant Hana Fuyu seedlings


Hardy Russian Pomegranate


Hardy Russian Pomegranate


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Nice photos!! I am going to grow a bunch of persimmons next year. Tony, what is the name of the hardy Russian pomegranate?

FC


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Great pictures, Tony!


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

FC,

The hardy Russian pomegranate is Salavatski. In the ground with protection for 3 years.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tony,

Thanks,

FC


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Thanks for posting the photos. Your plants are amazing, especially impressed wit hthe hana fuyu and ichi.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Beautiful pictures and plants Tony! Do you graft persimmons on Diospyros virginiana rootstock? I am surprised with picture, where you selected D. kaki seedlings as rootstock(Giant Hana Fuyu). I though you use more hardy virginiana seedlings in your area. Good choice with Ichi-ki-kei-Jiro variety - naturally small tree, not so vigorous. Izu should be similiar to Ichi with respect to growth and tree habitus.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Indicente,

I grafted most of the Kakis on D. Virginiana rootstocks for the cold hardiness. Last year my Giant Hana Fuyu had a bunch of seeds so I just want to do a trial by grafting Nikita's gift, Rossyanka, Sheng, Giombo, Kyung san ban si, and Tam Kam to the seedlings, and I plan to put them in the ground next spring to test out the cold hardiness of the D. Kaki rootstocks vs D. Virginiana rootstocks.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Ok, so it is another cold hardiness trial :). I look forward to see your results in next years. When you make summer prunning - does it not cause fruit drop (by stress for plant)? And then, do you have 2 growing periods in a year?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

American persimmon summer pruning is an interesting topic and I too would be interested in your insight/experience with it. The way I see it is that the strategy for summer pruning of virginiana should differ from that of pome or stone fruits as the trees' architecture differs, and I also suspect that it is more easily overdone, so that its impact on the fruit quality and size can be noticeable. With virginiana the canopy consists mostly of apical present year growth so when I summer prune, I'm more concerned about reducing the energy gathering capacity of the tree than I would with other species. My goal in pruning is to end up at the end of the season with short apical growth bearing fruiting buds without losing present-year fruit quality, size or number in the process. I head back apical growth late enough in the season, usually in mid-summer, so that the tree responds by recruiting new proximal fruiting buds on the branch rather than producing new shoots. I rarely need to prune off fruit in this process. Later when the tree is dormant I can further shorten the growth leaving 3 to 5 fruiting buds per branch. All of this needs to be done considering the tree's natural tendencies, because if it disapproves of your work, it will veto (self-prune) your alterations.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Creekweb & Indicente,

I only summer prune my Kakis to keep it below 8 feet so I can easily wrapped it up for winter protection. I measured up to 8ft and anything over 8ft goes. Indicente, I have not noticed that much different in fruit drops or stress the tree since I only cut about 8-10 inches of growth on top of the tree. In addition, right before I wrapped up the tree for winter protection I would prune it again to keep it at 8ft. Creekweb, I hardly prune my American persimmon because they don't need winter protection.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tony, make your plants 2 growing periods in a year?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Indicente,

I do not fertilized my persimmon trees and I water them sparingly during no rain peroid, so they don't growth too much. The 2nd growth is marginal for them.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tony,

what variety of american persimmon has the biggest fruit? I have read positive facts about Prok or Korp, but no personal experience with taste of fruits, productivity and hardiness. Several years ago I grew Meader- very productive tree, but fruits were loosing astrigency veeery slow. And also soft, overmatured fruits had traces of astrigency near the fruitskin. Very unpleasant for me, so I got rid of it.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Indicente,

Prok, Korp(sister of Prok), Yates, Keener, Lehman: U-20A, 100-42, 100-43, 100-46, 100-47, WS8-10, and Knightville. Prok is close to being the biggest one, but someone on this forum mentioned that he personally visited Jerry Lehman Persimmons research farm and stated that 100-47 is biggest American persimmon he has ever seen. It was bigger than the average Kaki.

Tony

Here is a link that might be useful: Jerry Lehman Persimmon


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tony, I did not hear before about american persimmon selections named U-20A, 100-42, 100-43, 100-46, 100-47, WS8-10. But there is no metric or weight fruit description of these varieties in the link you pasted. Do you have photo of your am. persimmon fruits? This must be something new and not so widespread yet. I though about growing american persimmons, because of their good cold resistance,but I was not satisfied with fruit size and taste of here avaible varieties.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tony,

What month did your Nikita's gift fruit in? (Did it have time to ripen in your zone?). How did the fruit compare to full Asian persimmons? Do you think it is any hardier than they are?

Thanks!

Mary Kay


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Indicente,
Those were Jerry Lehman own cross from Mr. Claypool best varieties. Jerry and Indianna Nut growing association members help manage over 2000 varieties of American persimmon from Mr Claypool crosses. You can read about Mr Claypool work in the link below. Jerry sent me his scionwoods last year and in the 2 to 3 years I can post the pictures for you. Also you can contact him via email and he will gladly answer any questions you have and also will to distribute his own crosses and Mr Claypool crosses. He told recently that he getting old and will not live forever. He needs all of us American persimmon enthusiasts to carry on Mr Claypool work and his own work. Right now he has over 700 seedlings testing out in his Am persimmon farm.
Mk,
My Nikita' gift form fruit in may and rippened in late October. It is very sweet and taste the same as an astringent Kaki.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

  • Posted by skyjs z8 OR, USA (My Page) on
    Fri, Jun 22, 12 at 0:10

I have personally had American persimmons ripen off the tree. They ended up being pretty good. I ripened them in a tool shed so squirrels, etc. wouldn't eat them.
John S
PDX OR


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Well, for me, who live in Europe is hard to get any scions from USA, because of the restrictions. Only I can do now is to follow and read the progress in am. persimmons breeding program. It looks very promising to obtain am.persimmon fruits with size of kaki. maybe 100-47 variety is the top one and the most perspective selection now. Looking forward to see your comparision of different am. persimmon varieties in the future.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Indicente,
I forgot to post the link of American Persimmon improvement.

Tony

Here is a link that might be useful: American persimmon improvement


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Very informative research.

FC


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Lucky, Tony, Creek, Shane,

I was reading Mr. Claypool persimmons record in the INGA, I94A was the highest scoring and the best tasting of all his varieties. Can you tell me how I94A taste compare to Yates, prok, or Lehman crosses? How come I94A was not commercialized?

FC

Here is a link that might be useful: Mr Claypool persimmons records


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

FC, I just grafted my I94 this spring so I won't be able to compare it to Prok or Yates in a while. I will drop Jerry Lehman a line to see if he can answer it for you.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

FC, Shan11, and all,

This is Jerry Lehman 2 cents on his and Mr. Claypool persimmons.

Hi Tony,

Wow, such a bunch of questions. Can't say that I have a favorite. There are many very good ones. The jury is still out on many of those you asked about. I-94A, and H-63A are very good with one likely headed for the Gardens Alive catalog. Cliff England is selling U-20A as Celebrity. U-20A has a milder flavor for folks who like kakis. I like the sweeter more intense flavor of WS8-10 and 100-46 over U-20A. Another very good one is Claypool's H-120. Lena is later but sweet and nice red blush. Another very good one is Kville (Knightsville).

100-46 is better in most ways to the other sisters, but 100-47 might out perform 100-46 in a different location. So they all need be tried.

This spring I attempted to essentially cross 100-46 and U-20A by breeding each to the other's brother. U-20A to 100-53M and 100-46 to U-20M. I also included a brother to WS8-10 in this.

We are 10 inches below the average YTD rain fall. If we don't get rained upon soon there may be no persimmons this year.

Jerry


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Thanks Tony, I'll contact England Orchard next spring to order the Celebrity U-20A,H-63A and poss. I-94A from Gardens Alive. Plz keep us updates on your persimmons.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

My 2 cents. H63A is very early, and good, about the same as Mohler, maybe Mohler is a little better. J59 is also very early, and although smaller than H63A, my opinion is that it tastes a lot better, and I believe Cliff England sells it.
Another early one is H118, although in Indiana it gets a disease, can't remember the name of the disease, no disease yet in Tn., and I prefer the taste of H118 over H63A.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Cliff England sells I94A as Valeene Beauty. Nolin also sells them as grafted trees by the same name. Well, spelled Valene Beauty at Nolin.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Benny, Alex,

I am glad to see your inputs. Benny thanks for the Mohler, and J59 scionwoods. They both took. Alex, thanks also for the Tam Kam scionwood, it puts on 1.5 ft of growth so far.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

I would like to see fruit pictures of varieties 100-46, 100-47 and U 20A. Please, someone paste the fruits of these selections. Probably are not so common....


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

These are 100-46 with a Great Wall in the center for comparison. Sorry about the clarity...


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Wow, thank you for posting - fruits look great! Some of them are bigger than Great Wall, I think....It seems to be promising variety. What about the taste?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

The 100-46 are good tasting persimmons, well worth having, and good size, but I prefer the richer tastes of Osage, Yates and Prok.
I grafted the U20-A this spring, and it has already set about a dozen fruit. If they should mature I will compare them also to 100-46.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Creek,

How big is Osage compare to Yates ,Prok, and 100-46. If poss I would like to swap Osage scionwood with you next February.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

I found several photos of new american persimmon varieties. Unfortunately there no metric scale by fruits but they look nice.

Here is a link that might be useful: bruce crossings


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tonytran, The Osage is somewhat smaller than the Yates which is about the same size as the Prok (proke) which is smaller than the 100-46. Please remind me next winter about the wood.

Indicente - thanks for posting that link; it's a good resource.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Creek,

Thanks, by the way, what are your thoughts between Morris Burton and MB# 3. I heard MB# 3 is a lot bigger than the MB but I am not sure about the taste? Better?

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Wonderful Link. I am new to this grafting of persimmon. Learned a lot just reading the Q. and A. Benny, thanks for introducing me to Rob Hamilton and Atlanta Fruits. Creekweb , I think you sent me scionwood this early spring. Yates, Ruby and one marked "large". I now have 2 Yates and 2 Ruby growing well. The one marked "large'did not take. All were bark graft on southern native stock which is 60 chrom vs. the 90 chrom northern type. Right? When can they be expected to produce fruit? Are they precocious? The 4 are now 6 feet tall with 2 feet of new growth. Do you graft onto the southern or northern stock? Is one any better than the other , save for the hardiness? Maybe I should try some of the others next season like 100-46 and Prok, or Osage. Thanks for everything. Bill (WLH)


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

But I am still more interested in hardy varieties of japanese persimmon :-) Some of them are really difficult to get here in Europe. The same situation is with american persimmons. I am wondering how hardy is Kyungsan ban si or Tam Kam. Still a lot of experiencies with them are missing....


 o
American persimmons

*Is it that Claypool I-94a is better than I-94? Which of these is cv. 'Valeene Beauty'

*Has anyone compared Osage to H-69a here?

*Does H-118 get a disease in Indiana, and/or elsewhere?

*How much earlier is NC-10 and H-118 than 'Yates' [/'Juhl']?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Nj,

I 94A is Valeene Beauty and it is a little bigger than I 94. Taste and color is the same, very good. Creek likes Osage for spicey cinnamon flavor. Benny likes H 69A for the same flavor as Osage. You may have to check with Jerry Lehman about H 118 disease in Indiana. Lucky stated his NC 10 ripening in 2 or 3 week of august. My NC 10 fruits drop this year, hopeful I can report next year.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

WLH8723, The trees you grafted should do fine on the native southern persimmon rootstock. I have used both northern and southern persimmon rootstock in my orchard and the main advantage I've found in using northern rootstock is that in general it tends to break bud later which gives an advantage in those years when late frosts cause damage. I have not identified any compatibility issues, though they are possible, and as most of the superior varieties are 90 chromosome, the northern stock does give a potential advantage there. I've found Ruby, and even more so Yates, to be more precocious than most, with a number of mine fruiting while they are still in pots.

Tonytran, Can't help you with MB#3 - don't have that one. I have found Osage to have a rich caramel flavor, but I have not found any American persimmons that have tasted like cinnamon. My H 69A has been disappointing in that it seems to drop its fruits each year, and I'm never convinced that what fruit is left is representative of the variety. My tree is unpruned and at least 15 x 10 ft; it had a great fruit set this spring, but after this hot dry weather, most again are gone. So far, Osage has been far superior to H 69A.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Error above in Tony's post. I have never tasted H69A or Osage.

Benny


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Benny,

I think I got mixed up with H 63A compared to,Mohler not Osage.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Jerry just told me that he believes Valeene Beauty to be I-94 and that he prefers I-94 to I-94A. I'll wait til I get a reply from him, because I mentioned that the description records seem to show I-94A as a little bit better than I-94.

I didn't really like U-20a, as it was VERY mild flavored, but I'm going to give it another try because Cliff, whose judgement I highly respect, likes it. Maybe it under-performed due to certain conditions.. it was in partial-shade at Jerry's Orchard.

I was not impressed by Mohler, but Lee Reich likes it a lot. J-59 was very good, but not one of my top-favorites. So, maybe I won't really care for my H-69a when it fruits.

My favorites are: Lena; Yates/Juhl; Wabash; C-100 & Morris Burton.

What are the most cold-hardy and especially late vegetating kaki persimmons? So far, I believe these to be the best for zone 6: Great Wall, Sheng, Ichi-Kei-Jiro, some of Cliff England's own varieties such as K-5 and Shin Na Da, Saijo (although Cliff seems to have had a problem with this one dying in the freeze of '07, Gibboshi - which seems to be Smith's Best.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

njbiology

What is your opinion about Hokkaido persimmon hardiness? Should be one of Cliff England´s selections and he states, that it is also pretty hardy. And I did not hear anything about his K-5 selection - do you know more?

I have read in one japanese article, that Saijo is old variety and displays genetic variation - there are known several Saijo "strains" or bud mutations?. So maybe all of them are not as cold hardy as original Saijo material.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

NJ,

Did you have the chance to taste any of Jerry's 100's crosses. If so, how is it compare to your favorites above?

Creek,

Maru, sold as "Cinnamon persimmon" for its spicy flavor. not Osage. I read so much and got mixed up.

After all the reading and growing persimmons. Taste is so subjective. You have to grow a bunch of persimmons and try it for yourself, and keep the ones that you like best and top work the one that you don't like.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

I've had Hokkaido growing here(southern west-central KY, 20 miles north of the KY/TN border) for a number of years. Cold-hardiness, so far, is comparable to Saijo. Has a single fruit this year - first time for it to produce any.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Lucky_p,
good luck with your single fruit,hope that it will persist to ripening time and you will inform us about fruit taste,weight or you'll paste some photos...How many years is your tree in free soil?So Hokkaido is pretty hardy,similair to Sheng,Saijo or Great wall...Do you also grow Shin or K-5 from Kentucky nursery ?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Hey Tony, I've been reading this thread and found it very interesting that you are growing more tropical persimmons in Nebraska not very far from where I live. I figured this wouldn't be possible to do where I'm at. I have prok, yates i94-a, u-20a, celebrity, 100-46, and ws8-10 American persimmons also Rosseyanka and Nikitas Gift growing here in Iowa. I have overwintered Rosseyanka here with no protection but this would be the first year overwintering Nikitas Gift. This year I bought a Giant Hana Fuyu to grow in a pot to bring indoors in the winter. The tree is really doing great. I have right now a 10 gallon pot planted in the ground with the tree planted in the pot until it is large enough to move to a 30 gallon pot. I'm pretty sure this tree isn't grafted on D. Virginiana. Can you graft Giant Hana Fuyu onto D. Virginiana rootstock? I would certainly like to experiment with the cold hardiness of hana Fuyu on D. Virginiana.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Treebird,

Giant Hana Fuyu is compatable with D. Virginiana but not D. Lotus. My is on D. Virginiana. By the way the U-20A is the same as Celebrity the comercial name. My Nikita's Gift is loaded this year. I protect my Kakis over winter with dry leafs and wrapped them up. A little extra work but big reward.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tony, it is true that most PCNA kakis are not compatible with lotus but Hana Fuyu (or Giant Fuyu) is the only exception. It grows and fruits quite well on D.lotus. For the outside plantation virginiana rootstock is preferable of course.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Harbin, I have Wase Fuyu topworked on lotus - no fruit yet but seems to be growing okay the past 2 years.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Yeah Tony i realized I put both names for the U-20a after i posted it. Its good to know Hana Fuyu is compatible with d. virginiana rootstock. I will be doing more grafting next year for sure. How well does your Nikitas gift hold up in Omaha over the winter? Do you protect it? This one I know I have grafted on D. Virginiana. I live in south western Iowa about 2 hours from Omaha, Nebraska. We have a pawpaw orchard in its infancy with all the best varieties of pawpaws available even a newly discovered variety me and my wife had found during our fruit hunt last year called HALVIN. Behind the pawpaw orchard we are starting to grow persimmons, only approximately 16 trees so far but I sought and sought for the most superior persimmon varieties and now you have me wanting to experiment with Kaki persimmons.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

harbin - I grow Jiro on D. lotus rootstock and it grows well during last 3 years, no signs of incompactibility. there are more PCNA varieties than only Hana Fuyu that prosper good on lotus rootstock.

i have limited room for other plants, so now I am looking for naturally dwarf growing japanese persimmons to save some place. Ichi-ki-kei should be good choice for small gardens, maybe also Izu or Tam Kam?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Just putting my zone in here, zone 5A.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Treebird,

I do protect the Nikita's Gift and Kakis by mulching the base of the tree to about 1 1/2 feet up. I trimmed the top to 8 feet tall across and tied the spreading branches together with a rope to make the tree a little smaller and wrapped it up with a tarp from Home depot with dry leafs stuffed inside. This process took place in late November. I removed the tarp from the tree in the first week of February to avoid early budding. This tree survived
the -26F in 2007 with this protection. Most year the temp only drop to -10F max.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

So I take it Hana Fuyu would survive just as easily with the same protection? I may try this out once I get it grafted to Virginiana next year. Tony, have you heard of anyone developing a non astringent cross with virginianna?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Treebird,

jerry Lehman told me that when he visited Russia last year and have learned that the Russian have many hybrids and they will release some in the near future. I am not sure any of those are non-astringent crosses. We just have to wait and see.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

That would be interesting to see. I heard it wasn't exactly easy to get their crosses to create Rosseyanka or Nikitas gift. If it were that easy, I'm sure alot more would be done. I know Jerry had told me he was working on crossing more Kakis with virginianna also. I thought Cliff had told me once that a non astringent has never been crossed with Virginiana. I just wonder if it could be done. It would be great to pluck an orange Virginiana type persimmon right off the tree while still crisp and take a bite of a sweet fruit that's as crunchy as an apple. I love Fuyu type persimmons.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Crossing kaki with virginiana is near impossible. But you can easily backcross a hybrid with either kaki or virginiana. This way you can increase the size (kaki) or hardiness (virginiana). Resulting hybrids can also be crossed with each other. This is what's been done in Ukraine. Last year I have crossed Hana Fuyu with a hybrid male but I do not expect that the resulting seedlings will bear non astringent fruit. Non astringency is a recessive trait.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Wow harbin, that is very interesting. I wonder if any one has a 50% or less kaki male crossed with virginiana that I would be able to graft onto virginiana to use for cross polination for my hana fuyu. I would like to experiment with this also. We have to keep the torch going here.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

So harbin, is recessiveness in persimmons similar to that of eye color or other recessive genes? If you cross a hybrid with a non astringent then bred sibling offspring, would you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a non astringent variety since they would both have the non astringent recessive gene? Also what variety of Kaki persimmon has the absolute largest fruit?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

treebird, I have a hybrid male seedling that I got from Clifford, and he has several in Kentucky. I can send you wood from mine, or Cliff can send you wood, I believe he wants to topwork his. The kaki in them is Honan Red.

Benny


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Treebird, nothing is absolute but Hana Fuyu has one of the largest fruits. But fruit size depends on many factors.

Here is a link that might be useful: Persimmon breeding in Japan


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

thanks benny. I will have to call cliff and ask him to add some wood to my order and harbin, i couldnt get that link to come up.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Hi all,

If you interested in cross breeding on your own and here is the method Jerry Lehman passes on me to share.

BREEDING THE AMERICAN PERSIMMON
Jerry Lehman, 7780 Persimmon St. Terre Haute, IN 47802-4994

The most prolific breeder of the American Persimmon is James Claypool. His test orchard at St. Elmo, IL contained over 2,400 hand pollinated trees many of which have been destroyed because of poor characteristics. Due to health problems Jim's breeding activities are now mainly concerned with caring for and evaluating the remaining trees. The Indiana Nut Growers has become active in continuing Jim's work by testing and distributing for further testing.

A few including myself are actively back breeding his F-1 crosses to the F-2 level. Because all of the males that Jim used were members of the Early Golden Family he never breed to the F-2 level to avoid inbreeding depression. Certainly at some point outside material will need be brought into the program to minimize this danger.

All of this work is being done in the Midwest (Illinois & Indiana). As all fruit, persimmon (D. virginiana) performance varies under different climatic conditions. Example, Claypool's D-128 now being propagated as Dollywood is an excellent cultivar for the Midwest. But one tester from the state of Alabama reports that Dollywood fruit ripens too soft and splatters when dropping from the tree.

Testers and breeders are needed in areas with different climatic conditions. In order to help would be breeders here is the procedure for pollinating which was developed by Mr. Claypool with the help of the late Prof. J. C. McDaniel of the Univ. of Illinois.

For complete control of pollen received by the pistillate flowers, they must be bagged and tied. Because the flowering period of any single branch can be as long as week, white paper bags are best. Plastic bags do not allow for the passage of air creating too much heat. Plastic bags also trap in moisture. Bags must be installed over the small branches before flowering begins. Destruction of paper bags has been minimal even in driving rain storms. To keep unwanted insects, especially ants, from carrying in stray pollen, place a small wad of cotton in the neck of the bag where is it tied.

Once the pistillate (female) flowers begin blooming pollen is collected. Newly opened staminate (male) flowers should be collected very early in the morning before bee activity begins to prevent the bees from delivering stray pollen to the corollas of the flowers. This is typically done 5:30 to 6:00 AM. After collecting staminate flowers take them indoors to dry and mature for several hours, 3 or more. The later in the day the flowers are collected, the less pollen remains in the tubular anthers. Two day old flowers carry very little pollen and are a waste of time to collect plus the corolla has a greater chance of harboring unwanted stray pollen.


Pollen can be extracted into and stored in small vials similar to prescription vials or micro centrifuge tubes. Either works well but the tube is best if only one or two flowers is available to extract pollen. Persimmon anthers are shaped as tubes which open at the end to release the pollen. Grasping the partially dried flower at it's base with a small tweezers. Turn it upside down over the vile and sharply wrap the tweezers on the vial's edge. The pollen falls out of the anthers and into the collection vial. With good lighting this can usually be seen with the naked eye. If collecting pollen from more than one male, care should be taken not to contaminate each by washing all tools and hands between extractions from all selected males. Thirty to fifty flowers normally produce enough pollen to easily pollinate many flowers.

My experience is that the Pollen remains viable for 48 hours and 60 hours with reduced viability. When not being used, store under refrigeration. Warm the container with your hands before opening a cold vial to avoid moisture condensation on the container walls causing the pollen to cling to the bottle.

Pollen can also be frozen for longer storage. In one test I froze (at zero F.) a sample for one hour then thawed and refroze twice more. The pollen was still viable and successful pollinations were obtained. In their book "Methods in Fruit Breeding" by James Moore and Jules Janick, they report that pollen from many fruits can be stored for up to one year at zero degrees F.

The bagged pistillate flowers should be checked each day and pollen applied to receptive stigma. Pollinating can be done anytime provided the stigmas are receptive. Newly opened flowers are normally receptive for a 48 hour period unless pollination has taken place. The stigma on successfully pollinated flowers turn brown within 24 hours while the style remains green.

Tooth picks work well for pollen applicators. Simply grasp the vial with one hand while holding the branchlet with the same hand. With the other hand remove the container top, insert the applicator tip into the pollen then gently touch the stigma. Pollen grains can easily be seen with a 30 power hand held field microscope. The 30 power field microscope fits in the pocket and can be used to confirm that pollen has been applied. With experience, it is seldom necessary to confirm application.
Forty eight hours after the last flower has been pollinated the bag should be removed. It is best to apply pollen from the same male to all flowers in one bag. Attach a label to each branch with the name of the male that was used. This should be done when the bag is first installed that it will be known which male is selected for that branche's flowers. I like to use vinyl electrical tape and permanent ink pens with felt tips for the label. This label is left on the limb all summer.

Then in the fall when the fruit begins to turn color, bags such as grapefruit bags need be installed over the limbs to collect the falling fruit. Extract the seeds, place in a plastic freezer bag with dampened milled sphagnum and store under refrigeration until planting next spring.

Early Golden was found near Alton, IL over 100 years ago. It has been said that it is neither early nor golden. At that time it was likely one of the earliest ripening cultivars and remains today one of the best tasting. There is question that all of the material named Early Golden today is a descendant of the original ortet. Claypool's tree came from a man by the name of Soloman who cut his scion from the original tree. Two daughters of EG are Garretson and Killen. From Garretson two males were selected for breeding that are known as G1M & G2M. Two males were selected from Killen, and named Mike & George. These males were selected primarily because of their high production of flowers making pollen collection easier. The true breeding value of any male from a dioecious species can only be determined by studying the progeny. Of these four, G2M has produced the highest percentage of trees producing the best fruit. In my test orchard are over 800 seedlings from controlled breeding involving Claypool's material.

The complete records of Claypool's orchard are available on the web at: WWW.claypoolpersimmonfarm.com

I hope this will help. Goodluck.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Thanks for the info Tony! My interest now with persimmons is hybridizing Kaki and Virginiana. Cliff is going to send me some wood next year of a fruiting male that is a cross of Great Wall and Virginiana. But my goal is to go backwards with that male to superior Virginianas that I favor and then go forward with the male results onto non astringent Kakis. Its just a plan and I found your info very interesting. Thanks


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tony, I am glad you pass the infos on. I have been searching for the correct way to cross persimmons in a while. Next time you talk with Jerry say thanks for me.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Treebird,

Jerry Had some fruited seedlings as a resulted of crossing Rossyanka male to several D. Viginianas but so far they did not taste good. He is going to send me some these male next spring so I can cross myself.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Treebird, I am sorry, try this one

Here is a link that might be useful: Persimmon breeding in Japan


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

That's cool tony, I heard that Rosseyanka was only ok in flavor and takes a very long time to lose astringency. I have a tree of rosseyanka but it hasn't fruited yet. It seems like Rosseyanka was the opening act for hybridization in persimmons but apparently opened a new world of possibilities.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Hey tony, I had a question for ya, on the Itchi and Hana Fuyu, I noticed you had them planted up against your house. You had mentioned that they were grafted on Virginiana rootstock. Are you not at all concerned about the rootstock growing into the foundation of your house or do you think it will not be a problem? Thanks


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Treebird,
So far so good. D. Virginiana has a very deep tap root and not many large side roots.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

  • Posted by skyjs z8 OR, USA (My Page) on
    Mon, Aug 13, 12 at 14:55

I had birds eating my American persimmons last year so I am going to put fruit sox on them so they can't be seen. It has helped with Japanese plums.

Izu is a naturally dwarfing tree. I don't grow it anymore because, like many nonastringent varieties, it doesn't have the rich, strong, rum/butterscotch flavor of the American varieties.

These are excellent discussions. Not very many people grow American persimmons out here in Oregon. We grow a lot more Asian ones. The main limitation is whether they ripen or not. Seedlings often wont' ripen. All early selected varieties will ripen every year.

The spontaneous dropping of branches on American persimmons is particularly an issue if you live in the suburbs, like me. It sounds like many of you have acres. You can grow as many one variety trees as you would like. I can't. I am trying an experiment this year. I tried to bud Saijo onto my virginiana rootstock. Then I am going to grow American varieties on the branches so that they don't fall off.

I realize in many parts of the country you don't grow both. In coastal California and Southern Florida, you can't grow Virginiana because they need more chill.

Keep up the good work. I love everyone's observations.
John S
PDX OR


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

As I know, new ukraine (not russian!) selections are selected seedlings coming from variety Nikita Gift. Most of these new varieties are astringent and late ripening, but there are also some non-astringent types. Hardiness of these varieties is under evaluation and still need to be tested in different climates, but should be in range between -20 to -25 Celsium degrees. They are difficult available outside Ukraine, maybe in next year or two will be.

I grow two D. kaki on lotus rootstock near the house, because of better microclimate. And I hope that rootstock will not be growing into the foundation of the house. Could it be a problem?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

  • Posted by skyjs z8 OR, USA (My Page) on
    Sun, Aug 19, 12 at 13:40

How near the house? Also if it's IZU, I wouldn't worry about it too much. If it's a larger variety, I would worry more.
John S
PDX OR


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Korean kaki is 1 meter from house path, second variety is Costata and it is 2 meters far from house. Korean is slow grower, but Costata has huge growth in second year. Can D. lotus roots be so strong to make cracks in house foundation?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

I'm going to avoid planting any persimmons close to the house like I said. It would be great for winter protection on your less hardy Kakis I'm sure but I've seen mature D. Virginiana trees that sucker profusely quite a distance all around the tree, I'm sure this would happen up along your foundation. I think it would be best to plant in an open area where you could mow easily around the trunk of the tree. I'm not sure about any other rootstock because it is doubtful it would survive here in Iowa. I just know the habit of D. Virginiana. I'm sure tony can keep us updated in the future, hopefully this wont be problem.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

I grow all persimmons on D.lotus rootstock and never observed suckers production by this species.Also,the roots were cut before planting in soil,so rootstock will probably produce dense amount of adventive roots near surface,not one deep and big root down.I heard that wallnut roots can damage house foundation,but no experience with D.lotus.We also grow winegrapes near house for 20 or more years.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

I agree,that is better to plant slow growing varieties near the house,like Ichi,Izu,Giboshi.Costata is 7ft high in second year in soil.I grow it because should be pretty cold hardy.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Back to the original question, I would answer that Yates can be ripened off the tree with satisfactory results. The fruit when picked once it has shown some slight color change and still fully astringent will continue the ripening process off the tree under low light conditions and room temperature and will fully ripen before those left on the tree. They become moderately sweet with good flavor and full loss of astringency but the color is somewhat less bright and less orange and the consistency is drier and more mealy than tree ripened fruit. Similar results with NC-10.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Creek,

That was a positive result. Now we can harvest American persimmons a little bit earlier and still taste good.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

I just saw your post today, Creekweb. Thank you for experimenting with Yates and NC-10 and reporting your results! That is good news.

My quest to defeat the squirrels might have some hope after all. :)

Mary Kay


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

It's been a while since returning-back to this thread:

-Jerry Lehman and Cliff England tell me that 'Valeene Beauty' is I-94... Not I-94A; though the Claypool records show a higher score for I-94A. Are you certain VB is I-94A?

-Does 'John Rick' successfully ripen in 6b/7a?

-Is F-25 one of the very best varieties?

-What varieties are females that produce some male or perfect-flowers, other than: Early Golden; Szukis, Killen, Meader, Garrettson?

-Is Mohler a (partially) seedless 90-c variety, even when pollinated by a 90-c male?

-I tried Celebrety (U-20A)... Low-flavor, bland. Maybe the tree was in a bad spot.

Thanks,
Steve


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

It's been a while since returning-back to this thread:

-Jerry Lehman and Cliff England tell me that 'Valeene Beauty' is I-94... Not I-94A; though the Claypool records show a higher score for I-94A. Are you certain VB is I-94A?

-Does 'John Rick' successfully ripen in 6b/7a?

-Is F-25 one of the very best varieties?

-What varieties are females that produce some male or perfect-flowers, other than: Early Golden; Szukis, Killen, Meader, Garrettson?

-Is Mohler a (partially) seedless 90-c variety, even when pollinated by a 90-c male?

-I tried Celebrety (U-20A)... Low-flavor, bland. Maybe the tree was in a bad spot.

Thanks,
Steve


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

John rick ripens at the same time early golden in my zone 7, both are very early ripening. The only difference between the 2 that I have found is john rick has slightly more reddish orange pulp and a red blush on the skin. Both persimmons are very good and should have no trouble ripening anywhere in zone 6.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Hi Guys!
I'm Kristian from Hungary. Zone 6b. Next year I want to expand my collection with american persimmons. Does anybody can help me in the cuttings? Because here in Europe we dont have american persimmons.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

There are restrictions and international rules for exporting plants and fruit trees abroad. That is the reason why Am. persimmons are not available in Europe.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Do you really think so?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

I heard it. But in limited quantity the sending is allowed. I know because i recived some fig cuttings last year.


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Tony
I would have a personal question for you, can i get your mail adress?


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Kristianhun,

You can send me an email thru my page.

Tony


 o
RE: Yates persimmons - can they be ripened off the tree?

Hello!
Tony I sent a mail.


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Fruit & Orchards Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here