Scott, I just go with what nature has to offer. I plant trees that do better in shaded areas in the less sunny places here. I think I read from Harvestman that cherries do well in shadier spots. Pawpaws are supposed to do pretty well. My Orient and Bartlett pear gets about 6-8 hours of sun, and they are loaded every year for the coons. The pear trees also grow tall and fill out pretty well, though not like they would in full sun. When possible, I cut limbs off the pines and oaks to let more sun in. That has given me extra time for the fruits to soak up more sun. I've been thinking about contracting a tree service company to prune the lower branches of some of these large oaks and gums.

I used to be able to grow great J. plums on my property in a part with even less light than that. It wasn't brown rot that killed me, but black knot, but as you know I use syn. fungicide.

As I've posted here in the past, I had an Elephant Heart on that part that did much better than any EH I've planted on sites with more sun, including my own. The one in the shade bore consistently and had no pitch pockets or other issues. It gave me an unrealistic idea of how useful that cultivar would be here and now I'm managing several I planted at various sites with regret.

Of course, this isn't total proof that in the northeast, EH will do better in the shade. There just might be something else in play here I haven't identified, but the explanation seems likely. The shade blocked morning and afternoon sun, incidentally.

I think if you stick to less BR susceptible peaches they can do well in the relative shade as can many apple varieties. Baldwin does better in partial shade than full sun here any season we get a lot of heat.

Partial shade can also be used to make stuff fruit later.

I have a Cortland and McIntosh in a shady spot. Gets some sun in the morning, dappled sun in the afternoon and full blazing hot sun after 2pm... Trees seem to do just fine. They are growing like weeds and set a ton of fruit. No disease that I've ever had to treat. The birds, squirrels, and PC/rose chafers are the bigger issue. I even grow some tomatoes in this area and they give me more tomatoes than I could ever need or want.

I have let them grow tall to catch some more afternoon sun and try to block the house. The problem I have is that the trees to the south shade my backyard (no trees/just lawn) yet the roof of the house gets blasted all day by sun.

I'm sure researchers would show a decrease in yield at x amount of hours of sunlight. On the flip side, moisture should be more plentiful in a shaded area. So you could take that angle.

Maybe you could open it up to try to get some more air movement?

Some of my fruits seem to do perfectly fine in less sun, I probably should have mentioned those. The pawpaws, kiwis, berries, and asian pears seem to be perfectly happy and productive. The Jap. plums peaches and apricots are OK if you ignore the brown rot problems - yield is off but is still reasonable, and the rot-resistant varieties do fine. The apples and euro pears are OK but their productivity is down by several notches; probably more limb or tree thinning is needed there. The jujubes don't set well at all; I need to thin them a lot more. The Euro plums just get rot too badly to be useful - it looks like all my backyard Euro plums are rotting this year. I may start using MFF in the backyard this next year to keep the rot down, that is really the biggest downside of less sun. I have relatively little rot in the front orchard, and its the same general mix of heirloom and modern varieties as in the back.

One other dimension I should have mentioned is I use close spacing both front and back, with an average distance of about 3' between trees. I believe it makes it more difficult to take advantage of limited sun with such close spacing. In the front the close spacing is a resounding success, with heavy production and little disease, whereas in the back I expect I will need to remove trees. Lesson learned.

Scott

Any comments on how blueberries do in partial sun? I just planted a bunch and realize now the area isn't as sunny as I had hoped it would be, especially later in the summer. Northwoodswis

Maybe you could take white plastic or aluminum foil and line your backyard orchard? :) You do have to wonder how the soil around the trees influences moisture levels. I wonder if white rock or some other rock would work?

I've long questioned tight planting schemes. On my own property I have trees a bit close and I just can't seem to help myself but for my clients I always provide "adequate" spacing- usually about 15' by 20' for free standing trees. Obviously it varies from species to species, variety to variety, rootstock to rootstock, soil to soil.

Although I employ lots of summer pruning on my property, widely spaced trees seem to produce more fruit of higher quality IME.

Obviously the more heat and light units a region gets the tighter you can have your trees- especially if they are not being watered by rainfall.

I haven't thoroughly explored the possibilities of tight spacing, however and will be interested how you are appraising these methods once your trees start having great big root systems. With young trees it's not such a problem. With summer pruning do you really adequately keep the roots in the right ratio with the top of the tree?

I don't know how big you would call big, but my plums in front are ten years old and are throwing suckers as far as 20' from the trunk. These plums have been some of my most successful trees and they are planted only 2' apart. They have stabilized in the last few years in terms of how much growth they do, I hedge them a couple times every summer with the hedge trimmers and thin and prune more in the winter, and they are looking about the same every year now. The fact that I have not had as good a luck in the back does show there are some challenges to the close spacing, it is more sensitive to field conditions. It was still worth doing for me in that I managed to fruit several hundred varieties in a very small space, so it was a worthwhile experiment for that, but now that I have done all this testing I am more concerned with ease of care and good, reliable yields.

Scott

That's a good test of J.plums, but that's only one species. Also the more shade I have to deal with the more open the trees need to be so I figure the crowding may be aggravating the situation already hampered with shade.

Plum brix is not as affected by excessive vigor as are other species in my experience. You'd also need to compare some plums in same situation that have plenty of room.

I didn't come into growing fruit trees with a negative attitude about close spacing but over the years I've become more against it. I think you came into this with a very strong positive attitude about close spacing so I'm not quite sure about your objectivity, although you certainly convey a logical and sound perspective. All of us engage in a certain amount of motivated reasoning which I'm sure also affects my take on your analysis.

Very interesting thread. I have all my stone fruit planted intensively. But then, I'm in a warm, arid area of the country. And, you can most definitely see the distinct different in growth this season for all my new stone & pom fruit, comparing those trees that get some shading from the morning glories on the cyclone fence, and those that do not. HUGE difference with this first year growth. Once they get taller than the fence it will become a non-issue. And, I am curious to see how I fare with our spring fungal stuff here (PLC is our main issue). We had a dickens of a time here, even with 2 or 3 more sprayings than usual. Which at some times was nearly impossible to get a spraying in due to all our rains. We're slated for a warmer, drier winter this year, which I would really not prefer, as we get all our rains in the winter and early spring. Then we have essentially zero rainfall the rest of the year. Hopefully, I won't have to do the fungal battle I did these last two springs, it was horrible. And I hope I don't end up creating a fungal growing ground with my intensive plantings (about 3 to 4' apart). Time will tell for me I guess. Not worried about large production, just good quality fruit.

Patty S.

This spring I planted a row of apples (B9/G11/G16) at 5' spacing. So far, the results seem pretty good- though I know I need to wait a while before deciding that...

I'm looking to add a second row (approx 12 feet away). This time, most of the varieties I'm looking for are available on interstem rootstock (G11/M111 and B9/B118). Assuming I don't bury the lower graft union, how much bigger (if any) should I expect the tree to get? Sentiment on the web seems mixed between "almost no bigger" to "semi-dwarf" (which can be pretty big).

I was planning to create a separate thread on this, but my question fits this topic almost perfectly...I've been considering 5', 7', and 8' as possible in-row spacing. Please let me know which (if any of the above) spacings you would suggest.

Northwoods,
Hi, I picked Bluecrop this year in a 30 yr old blueberry orchard, 8'spacing, little cultivation, aunatural, that had tree lines on both e/w sides (on july 25) from 6.5-10 hrs exposure. The ones toward the center, with more sun exposure produced large berries with a spritely berry flavor, medium/low sugar,medium acid. Shade begins at 5:30 and by 6:30 it's in the shade. Great pickin'!
Towards the treeline the berries became sparcer, had less bloom (darker) in many cases, were large and very complex in their flavor, a little tarter. I prefer these for processing/jamming, but also enjoy them fresh.
The following week I went to a commercial bluecrop planting, 2-3' spacing. I noticed the rows were E/West. Maybe contributed to a lot of mummy berry I saw? Large berries, low acid, varying sweetness from very sweet and insipid to sweet and more flavorful. Definitely worth chomping on a mouthful to get all the flavor profiles. Warmer, full sun spot!

What's your exposure like?
I have a N/S treeline that receives sun from mid day till sunset and am considering encroaching on it with more blueberry plants. I'm not going to plant premium$ plants, maybe just Jerseys on a 5' spacing for 225'. So, taller, sparcer, plants on the edge. Good for the deer and birds!
Noogy

Hman, I also have peaches I planted at the same time in the same spot as the plums, and they are also doing great. My O'Henry is ten years old and is now completely loaded with large fruits. It was starting to runt out a few years ago so I let some new lower shoots replace some of the major top scaffolds and its going like blazes again. All of my 10-year apples I planted in spots with far too little sun, it was before I knew what I was doing there. So, I don't have any good long-term data on apples yet.

In terms of objectivity, nobody is objective. I was reading a book (been reading a lot lately at night with no power thanks to Irene) about dog-rearing and this scientist kept talking about this or that scientific opinion supporting this and that conclusion, and all these non-scientific opinions that are wrong, but he was putting a huge slant on the scientific results all the while he was doing it, and his slant was also in-line with the sponsor of his research. I try to be objective but I am sure I am somewhat prejudiced in favor of the close planting, and you appear to be prejudiced against. Hopefully not too much for either of us :-)

Bob, if I were to do a new apple planting where I was not trying as many varieties as possible, I would probably do dwarf or semi-dwarf at 5'-7', with ~12' between rows. I have a few trees with that effective spacing and they seem to have the best balance for where they are located in terms of ease of care and production; they are on M9 to MM106 range stocks.

Scott

OK, peaches are what I'm most concerned about and where I'm having quality issues in my own orchard. It may be that your stronger sun or weaker soil makes the difference also. I'd like to hear from more eastern growers experimenting with your spacing. How deep is your soil, anyway?

My peach quality issues came into play after about 13 years and I'm still trying to figure out why. My Madison is too bland for me to bother with, although others think it's excellent.

The next question would be, are you comparing your fruit to other expertly grown tree ripened samples grown near your neighborhood?

Noogy,
My blueberries are about five feet apart in three rows about six feet apart. The rows go E-W. The shade is from all directions, but essentially most of the sun is for about six hours or even less in late summer. The times they get it vary by where the bushes are in the rows. They were mostly clearance bushes from the Big Box stores, but were nice large and healthy ones in pots. I have dukes, northlands, blue crops, blue jay, northskies, chippewas, kabluey, patriots, maybe a another kind or two there. They are over the new septic drainfield on a sandy slope. If I had my druthers, a few more trees would get cut, but I don't always get my druthers. I have another area of older blueberries in full sun, where the problem is keeping them watered enough. Northwoodswis

Northwoods,
Fortunately bbs dont mind a little shade. I'd prune center to encourage spreading and openness as the light penetration/utilization will be maximized, further approaching their potential. The half-highs(Patriot,etc.) have this natural rhizomic spreading style . I'd just be aware that your Blue Jays could reach 8' and potentially shade the others . But you prolly already have them on the north side.
Have you overwintered your Duke's yet?

I read a thread about irrigation and am thinking about emmitter irrigation tubing, but for now my abused leaky hose works well too. I also ended up purchasing 50yds of shredded pine that lowers my irrigation needs 50%.
Noogy

Noogy,
The 8 dukes and one blue jay are new varieties for me this year. The rest I have overwintered before. Of my total 58 bushes, about half are hardy to zone 4 and half to zone 3. We are in zone 4, but near the border of zone 3, so some may be just attractive foliage plants some years.
Northwoodswis

Thanks Scott- we seem to have about the same idea about spacing for these. I know I prefer squeezing a lot in given my relatively small yard (half acre) and the large number of things I want to plant.

Havestman- do you have any thoughts on how far to space G11/M11 and B9/B118 interstems? The site gets quite a bit of sun (not complete, but ~9am to 4:30pm). I may be able to add another hour in the morning, depending on how the neighbors feel about me cutting the trees on the property line.

Northwoods,
Sounds like it's "berry time" at your place! The literature I have rates "Duke" as a z5 hardiness, but with the snow you guys get, it'll probably be covered. I'd keep it low if possible. Some of the most flavorful berries I've had were in partial shade, just let them hang on a little longer(if possible)!
Noogy

hman, I have had several peach trees "runt out", it seems like they are not putting out enough new wood for how much fruit they want to bear, none of the limbs put on a lot of new growth in any year. I think peaches have a natural tendency to do that and is a reason why peach trees often don't last so long. I have managed to get several trees going well again by pruning back very severely and the tree will then put up some sprouts from lower down which I can train to new scaffolds. I didn't ever butcher a whole tree but I would butcher a big part of it. I am in the middle of doing this to several peach trees right now.

Scott

Quite the opposite of the peaches I manage at home and most other sites. I have only one site where there's a patch of land where peach trees just can't seem to grow with any vigor. I thought it might be some huge hardy pecan trees that have roots in the area but now I think I might need to look for some other source of phtotoxicity. I tried deeply trenching around them in spring which seemed to help at first but results have been uneven. It's one of my most annoying failures as a horticulturist. Pecans aren't even supposed to be very destructive to other plants in the manner of walnuts.

On my own site the trees are excessively vigorous. The Madison must be 20 years old and just gets more vigorous each year. Used to be a great peach but now pure blandsville. It's not crowded either. The only reason I haven't cut it down is because it's fun to experiment to see if I can figure out how to solve the problem.

Has anyone tried root pruning to lower vigor? I've thought about trying it on a couple trees in the greenhouse. Excess vigor is what I spend all year trying to control. This is what kills eating quality of stone fruit, IMO. Maybe it's more complicated than this but excess water and nitrogen equals excess vigor equals poor eating fruit.

I've tried root pruning on a J. plum that was sucking up grey water from a washing machine and excessively vigorous. I cut some major roots, as much as I dared- seemed like it must have been at least 50% of the root system but the tree skipped not a beat.

I was going to try it on one of my peach trees this year and than planned for plastic mulch to keep rain away but ended up only letting the grass grow tall underneath. Brix was better than last couple years and the peaches were good but this was no controlled experiment. It was a Redhaven and fruited when things were still pretty dry here.

My problem is that I'm always overwhelmed during the growing season and don't get around to doing a lot of what I'd like to.

"hman, I have had several peach trees "runt out", it seems like they are not putting out enough new wood for how much fruit they want to bear, none of the limbs put on a lot of new growth in any year."

That is puzzling Scott. My experience is like Hman's, too much vigor. I'd like 2 feet of growth and I get 5.

I've no idea what your soil's like but in my case any trees that have tried to runt out (apple, paw paw, etc) have too much ground water in the Spring. You know, heavy rains kill fine root hairs in the spring, then they don't have root capacity to absorb water in the dry season. As you know that's why I've been planting peach trees in mounds.

Incidentally, I've found wet spots can sometimes be surprisingly patchy. A tree may languish in one spot. I'll dig down and find the soil completely saturated at that spot in the Spring. But I may find a drier spot 20' away where a tree is thriving.

I'm also wondering if the fact that peach trees runt out there might also be connected to the success of tight planting.

Olpea, my trees are on a hill so the drainage is very good and I doubt they are getting too much water. I don't know why the trees are doing that but it may be for different reasons - disease, deer rub damage (I have a lot of that unfortunately), and lack of light. It is not very common, only a few trees have it.

Scott

Nematodes?

Scott, I misspoke when I said I had only one site where peaches runted out. That was just the site that stands out as a mystery unsolved. Of course I plant bearing age fruit trees so the chances of environmental conditions leading to this are increased- especially if plants receive insufficient water after installation. Peaches are the most likely of any species I grow to be sluggish in establishing at a new site.

Peaches are especially poor competitors when placed in soils with existing roots of established trees. I've had several sites where plums, apples and pears all did very well while peaches languished. On these sites there were large forest trees in the background with roots extending into the orchard areas.

Are the peaches growing with other peaches or do you have species intermixed? When you dig around the soil where peaches are growing are there roots from other species dominating?

I know that it's hard to tell you much about orcharding that you don't already know because you are a thoughtful, experienced and motivated grower, but I figured my suggestions couldn't hurt.

hman, I don't have significant intermixed plantings. I could have nematodes but I have never seen them on trees I have dug up. In the majority of cases I would say there is an obvious disease or pest or light issue; one problem I had a few years ago for example was peach scale, that stunted several trees. My O'Henry for example had bad peach scale. The problem is even though you fix a problem the tree can be in a self-fulfilling path of low growth which it can't just pop out of. There is only one tree that I really don't know why its not growing more, its my Black Boy peach. I think the original cause is it got horrible brown rot two years ago, the kind that is so bad that it kills the small shoots as well, and it is very slowly recovering from that. This year it did much better than last year, no big vigorous shoots but at least some 2' ones. So it may have just been from the rot and its taking its time recovering.

If you read all of the old fruit books they refer to the "yellows" on peaches quite frequently, something they thought was a disease of some sort. Today it is not considered a legitimate diagnosis. My view is this "yellows" is just this tendency for peaches to runt out under certain conditions. It often results in leaves that are more yellow.

Scott

It still seems strange. In my nurseries I tend to completely neglect my peach trees besides shaking out the fruit while still green and hundreds of trees invariably grow with great vigor. Even when they get too big and I pop them out of the ground destroying most of their root system they come back by the second year. You looked for nemotodes with a microscope? I don't think you can see them with the naked eye or even a mag glass. Never seen them myself but they are much more common down where you are.

I thought nematodes were visible by the galls on the roots. But maybe not. One reason why I don't think nematodes is the "weak" trees are often right next to "strong" trees, and the "weak" trees are not just in one spot, they are all spread out. Oh one other cause of runting I neglected to mention is one spot has too much salt in the soil, a salt box tipped over. Those trees have their own stunted growth pattern, something a bit like the genetic dwarf peach varieties -- close internodes.

Scott

You are probably right about the nematodes since you've probably researched it. Been a while since I've read about them and I do remember that there are different types and presumably different symptoms but you've had the incentive to find out which ones do what to peaches. Species susceptibility would vary, of course. I think most southern growers use Nemaguard rootstock for peaches, right?

nah - It's a mixed bag down here... I think most of the rootstock is still miscellaneous peach cannery pit seedlings....

Ironically, rootstock was identified as one of the major causes of "Peach Tree Short Life Syndrome" - incompatibility between rootstocks and the graft after hard winters, a fungus, and Nematode attacks were all linked together.... and ironically Nemaguard was possibly the worst choice when all factors are present....

Guardian is the most highly recommended, then Lovell....

The most commonly named rootstock down here is "Lovell".. but I don't personally believe that they are bona-fide Lovell... or else there would be tons of delicious, yellow cling peaches popping up all over the place when the tops die.. but there aren't. The Feral peaches I have dug up and grown out are mostly small, white, and bitter until FULLY ripe....

Thanks

John:

Those are Lovell seedlings, not true Lovell. The seedlings fruit is going to vary.