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| I jusrt received a 5 lb. order of Imidan 70 WP. I had heard that it smelled pretty bad and was expecting something like Malathion odor. Good grief...this stuff is in the dissolvable plastic packets, inside the foil/mylar outer packaging and that is inside a sealed Ziploc bag which is in a cardboard box. Nothing has been opened and yet I can smell it through all that sealed packaging. Question is...how long after spraying does this odor persist? Obviously it's going to be really bad when mixed and sprayed. Does the odor die down to something tolerable after a day or so? |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on Mon, Aug 18, 14 at 19:35
| Once it dries it holds the older less than malathion, I think. I've never noticed its smell on trees sprayed even a day before but Malathion I can smell for several days. |
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- Posted by Appleseed70 6 MD (My Page) on Mon, Aug 18, 14 at 21:05
| That's good to hear. This 5lb. bag will last me a long, long time. I don't really mind the Malathion odor, but I'm thinking this stuff is going to be worse when spraying and it smells different (at least in the packaging) than Malathion. |
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| I don't spray any organophospates other than Lorsban on the trunks for borers. It stinks to high heaven. |
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- Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on Tue, Aug 19, 14 at 20:14
| I love the smell of Imidan in the morning. It smells like victory. |
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- Posted by Appleseed70 6 MD (My Page) on Wed, Aug 20, 14 at 2:20
| Olpea...I've read (recently) a lot of your old posts where you talked intelligently and at great length about different organophosphates including a ton on Imidan. Now you are saying you don't use anything other than Lorsban for borer protection. I'm just curious about your perceived interest and accumulated knowledge on the subject coupled to the fact you don't use them. I remember reading (I think) that you were spraying Mustang Max. Is that what you are still doing? Isn't it far more expensive? Promote mite outbreaks? Is it as effective? Is there some good reason that I'm not aware of that I shouldn't be spraying it? I hope not...I got $90 tied up in it. |
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- Posted by Appleseed70 6 MD (My Page) on Wed, Aug 20, 14 at 2:28
| Oh yes...one final somewhat goofy question for Olpea or Harvestman or whoever. How does one pronounce Imidan? Im - a - Dan (first syllable like the word him without the H) I'm - a - Don e - my - den em - my - den |
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| Appleseed, I've always heard Imidan pronounced the first way. Short I - then mmm - then a short "a" - then dan. My general opinion is that virtually all pesticides available for legal use in the U.S are very safe. This is based on studies of pesticide applicators who have sprayed older generation pesticides most of their lives and still seem to outlive (or have less cancer) than folks who were never bathed in pesticides routinely. There is a sort of mini fruit belt in Missouri (right along the MO river) where the temps are moderated from the river. I've talked to an old orchardist there along the river. He claimed all his old orchard friends lived into their 90s, and sprayed some of the worst stuff available for years. I'm guessing these would be primarily organophosphates,which were the mainstay of spray programs for that generation. These are cholinesterase inhibitors like carbimates (i.e. Sevin) which can be hard on the body. Still perception is reality and organophosphates have a bad rep. nowdays. Supposedly there may be some correlation to ADD and children, and the EPA is cracking down on organophosphates and seems to be determined to phase them out. I'm going along with the popular trend, so I don't use them on fruit, even though I think they are perfectly safe. SWD may change that. Malathion is a popular tool to protect against SWD, but so far I haven't had to use it. If I can't protect fruit without Malathion, then I'll start using it. Danitol is also very effective against SWD. I have some on hand, but haven't used it yet. Soft compounds like Delegate have worked to protect fruit from SWD this season. I prefer soft compounds if they will perform, even if they are much more expensive. I don't seem to need to use Imidan. Imidan is strong on PC, but weak on stink bugs, which is a real problem here. Pyrethroids like Mustang Max do a better job on stink bugs, but are harder on beneficials. Pyrethroids in general are more inert for human beings but harder on beneficials. So it goes. All that said, I would not be afraid to use organophosphates at all for fruit for my own use, but I'm trying to be sort of cutting edge on the safety for my customers - as much as is possible for this area, so currently I don't spray any organophosphates on the fruit. |
This post was edited by olpea on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 8:36
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- Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on Wed, Aug 20, 14 at 17:42
| Here is the study that I paid to get a copy of and that began the original discussion here about the safety of synthetic pesticides. Whole Foods does not want you to read this. Mortality among Participants in the Agricultural Health Study • Aaron Blair, PhD SMRs for applicators were based primarily on mortality among men and for spouses primarily among women. There were only 29 deaths among female applicators and they resulted in SMRs of 0.5 (95% CI, 0.3�"0.7) for all causes, 0.7 (95% CI, 0.4�"1.2 based on 12 deaths) for all cancer, 3.9 (95% CI, 1.1�"10.1, based on four deaths) for ovarian cancer, 2.8 (95% CI, 0.3�"10.1 based on two deaths) for NHL, and 2.2 (95% CI, 0.2�"7.8, based on two deaths) for non-motor vehicle accidents. Male spouses experienced 15 deaths and resulted in SMRs of 0.9 (95% CI, 0.5�"1.5 based on 15 deaths) for all causes, 1.0 (95% CI, 0.3�"2.4 based on five deaths) for all cancers, and 1.6 (95% CI, 0.3�"4.7 based on three deaths) for lung cancer. All cancers 220 0.7∗ Colon 13 0.5∗ Pancreas 8 0.5 21 0.7 15 0.6 14 0.6 9 0.6 16 0.8 26 0.4∗ Prostate 24 0.8 24 0.6∗ Brain 8 0.9 11 0.6 11 0.8 8 0.6 9 1.0 6 0.4∗ COPD 17 0.2∗ Non-motor vehicle accidents 18 0.9 56 1.1 29 0.8 45 1.2 22 0.9 39 1.1 17 0.9 48 1.0 ∗95% confidence interval does not include 1.0. Table 4. Mortality among private applicators and spouses in the AHS cohort through 2000 by lifestyle characteristics and follow-up period (expected based on general population rates in Iowa and North Carolina) All cancers 296 0.5∗ Colon 45 0.9 35 0.8 31 1.0 23 0.8 19 0.9 42 0.9 47 0.8 40 1.0 Lung 14 0.1∗ Breast 35 0.7 16 1.0 27 1.2 18 0.7 6 0.6 46 0.9 39 1.1 18 0.7 Brain 21 1.1 5 0.3∗ Non-motor vehicle accidents 34 0.8 43 1.1 19 0.9 18 0.8 12 0.8 27 0.8 57 1.0 25 0.7 ∗95% confidence interval does not include 1.0. Back to Article Outline 2. Pearce N, Reif JS. Epidemiologic studies of cancer in agricultural workers. Am J Ind Med. 1990;18:133�"142 3. Blair A, Dosemeci M, Heineman EF. |
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| Olpea, What do you mean when you say "soft" compounds? H'man, Your post reminds me of a study I read about a while back (don't remember where) that seemed to indicate that people exposed to low level radiation had a lower incidence of cancer than the general population. Mike |
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| "Olpea, What do you mean when you say "soft" compounds?" Mike, Soft pesticides are traditionally what the EPA would classify as "reduced-risk" compounds. They have a very low toxicity on mammals and aquatic life. They have a low impact on the environment in general. "Hard" pesticides are typically older generation pesticides which are more broad spectrum. They are generally more toxic to broad classes of insects. Some of the organophosaphates (like Imidan) are an exception to this rule. My understanding is that predatory insects are fairly tolerant of Imidan (I once read this was due to its decades of widespread use, but I don't see how that could account for its low toxicity to beneficials, because it seems to me pests would also have become more tolerant of the insecticide along with the beneficials, yet Imidan remains one of the most effective insecticides against PC - one of the most common fruit pests.) Regardless, I don't think it can be argued that some of the newer reduced risk pesticides are "softer" meaning they have a lower toxicity to mammals, aquatic life, and beneficial insects. I've sprayed my tomatoes repeatedly with a soft compound and they still have all kinds of garden spiders making webs in the cages. I saw a Praying Mantis casing on one of the tomatoes the other day. You definitely pay more for these compounds, as is the case with any newer technology. |
This post was edited by olpea on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 8:34
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- Posted by Appleseed70 6 MD (My Page) on Wed, Aug 20, 14 at 23:49
| Interesting read Harvestman. There are however so many variables in a study like this that it's pretty hard to get a very accurate "read" on things. It does appear though that a lot of attention was given to minimizing these variables as much as possible. I searched out 4 names from the study list, 2 women and 2 men and their background info. makes me believe that this study was indeed on the level. Having said that, I would like to know where ALL the funding came from. I suspect most if not all was governmental money due to the government agencies listed as well as searched employees backgrounds, both former and current. I think this is a good study, and at the very least, probably shows that the pesticides are far safer than say having a tobacco habit. I do find that mildly reassuring. I hate to be a "Doubting Thomas" about everything, but life and my attention to political matters has made me quite cynical. Had this been a study compiled by the ag chemical industry, I'd have given it zero credibility. |
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- Posted by Appleseed70 6 MD (My Page) on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 1:05
| Olpea...if that old farmer's friends lived to be in their 90's, they'd have likely sprayed far harder compounds than Carbaryl...would they not? Wouldn't they have been "in the game" when London Purple and Paris Green (lead arsenates) were the mainstays...and still at the transition to the safer DDT? "Still perception is reality and organophosphates have a bad rep. nowdays. Supposedly there may be some correlation to ADD and children, and the EPA is cracking down on organophosphates and seems to be determined to phase them out." Yeah Olpea...I've pretty much came to the same conclusion as you. However, it's not hard for me to understand where this "bad rep" and stigma has come from. When folks think of the dangers of pesticides the first thought that comes to mind is DDT. Everyone (well most everyone) is aware of the issues that come along with it. Did you know (I didn't) that Parathion (an organophosphate) is more than 30 times more toxic than DDT. It too has been banned. I'll spray the Imidan, not because I think it's safe, but rather because I think it's safe enough. |
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- Posted by Appleseed70 6 MD (My Page) on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 1:24
| Olpea, just wanted to add that after reading more I see ADD is apparently a form of Autism as is ASD. Pyrethroids and Carbamates have similar links as well. I found no concrete evidence though, but enough circumstantial evidence seems to exist to raise concern. Maybe I could just spray Imidan early for PC control and then use "safer" stuff later in the season. Would that work...does it sound reasonable? I can't keep the kids out of the yard all summer. If I do that, I'll have to sell some of this stuff...any ideas? |
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- Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 5:40
| When you start doing this kind of research, if you look beyond pesticides, you find out that there are at least as strong and usually stronger associations with common materials within your house, including the plastics that we use to gather and store our food and drinks, the foam in our living room furniture and so forth. Industrial products that are much less tested than those used in agriculture permeate the air within our homes, automobiles, shopping malls and offices. Even the food we eat probably contains much higher quantities these compounds than pesticide residue. Once you begin this search for evidence of newly introduced industrial chemicals that may cause harm to your children you may need a synthetic compound just to allow yourself sleep at night -cancer be damned. Use some common sense. Close the windows when you spray and keep the kids out for whatever the label requirements state and ask them not to climb the fruit trees or roll in the grass underneath when not fully clothed when fruit is protected with poison. If you gift them with the joy of eating tree ripe fruit from your own trees it will probably have lifetime influence in their eating a more healthy diet and do a great deal more good than harm. |
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- Posted by Appleseed70 6 MD (My Page) on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 11:33
| Yeah...I get what your saying harvestman. Remember the FEMA trailers that had the cancer causing formaldehyde paneling etc? When I was 15 I got a full time job in a home center and at that time all the cheaper paneling and MDF board were full of it. The area where it was stocked just reeked of the chemical. I often think about that. People covered the walls in there homes with it and was then inundated with the fumes/vapors for decades. |
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| "Olpea...if that old farmer's friends lived to be in their 90's, they'd have likely sprayed far harder compounds than Carbaryl...would they not?" I'm guessing most of their orchard career would have been during the popular organophosate era. DDT wasn't banned till the 70s, but organophosphates started replacing it in the 60s mostly. They also would have likely sprayed 2,4,5-T (agent Orange) a popular agricultural herbicide, since it wasn't phased out till the 70s. They probably also sprayed DDT and possibly the arsenates you mention (Paris Green, etc.) My father in law was born in 39 and he remembered using lead arsenate on the farm garden for squash bugs. You could probably throw Black Leaf 40 in the mix as one of the things they sprayed also. Although a natural product it has a low LD50 value (i.e. very toxic to mammals, including humans). So all in all they probably sprayed some pretty nasty stuff. "Did you know (I didn't) that Parathion (an organophosphate) is more than 30 times more toxic than DDT." I didn't know the LD50 value, but am aware organophosphates typically have lower LD50 values. Some (like Parathion) are very toxic. My applicator's license manual mentions that Parathion has a 100% absorption rate in men, through the scrotum. The book points out that this has the same effective result as injecting the compound directly in the bloodstream (Interestingly, the stomach does not have a 100% absorption rate - some of the compound passes through the digestive track without being absorbed - so theoretically it would be safer to drink the compound than to get it on the scrotum.) Years ago I once knew of a farmer who rigged up his own field sprayer. He used a 55 gal. drum for a tank and and powered the sprayer using a PTO pump. The drum sat on the 3-point on the back of his tractor. The drum was open at the top and since the tractor was a footstep (no cab) the pesticide would splash up out of the barrel on his back and down in his tractor seat. So he would sit in it all day. Absorbed a lot of pesticide I'm sure. "As I understand it organophosphates were discovered in Hitler's Nazi nerve gas program." I had heard that before. Really most pesticides act on the nervous system, so organophosphates aren't unique in that regard, they are just more toxic - generally. Guthion is another one that comes to mind. The EPA just got through phasing it out. My understanding is that the EPA is eventually going to phase out Imidan. You probably read in past posts that Imidan used to be approved for dusting dogs (think dusting the family dog, bringing it in the house, children wrestling with the family pet, using the family pet as a pillow to lay their heads, while they watch TV, Imidan dust everywhere.) and could be purchased by anyone for spraying their trees. It was used in this fashion for 40 years. As I recall, they made it more restrictive sometime around 2000. No more pet dusting, and started packaging it for commercial use. Even though I doubt I'll ever use Imidan, I wouldn't be afraid to spray it personally, and definitely wouldn't be afraid to eat fruit sprayed with it. I'm just trying to use a softer compounds because I think that's what my customers prefer. I'd probably use organic methods (that's what customers would like best) except that I wouldn't be able to raise any peaches organically here. Below is an article about a possible link b/t organophosphates and ADD. I remember when it came out, the researchers admitted it was not a very conclusive link and there were a lot of "holes" in the research, yet the newspapers had a field day scaring everyone off apples/fruit. http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1989564,00.html |
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| Any suggestions as to the best place to buy Imidan, Lorsban etc. Thanx |
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| Mike, Anymore, ag chemicals can be obtained anywhere on the Internet with a Google search (which is probably your best bet if purchasing small quantities). I notice even Ebay sells all kinds of ag chemicals. For larger quantities, most farmers use their local Coop/chemical supplier, or a national chain like Crop Production Systems (CPS) which has offices in about every state. |
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- Posted by Appleseed70 6 MD (My Page) on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 12:11
| Olpea...thank you for the informative reply. Your knowledge is an invaluable resource here. Mike: you can find imidan on ebay. There are other sites online selling it also, but they are all the same ones selling it on ebay. It's around $90 for the 5 lb. bag (5-1 lb. packages making 400 - 600 gals spray). I found nobody selling it in any smaller packages than that, and I looked EVERYWHERE. Southern Ag repackages commercial grade fungicides and insecticides and sells on ebay, but the cost premium for the smaller packages is VERY steep. I would like to sell some of mine because I have more than I could ever possibly use, but am unsure of the legality of doing so. I suppose as long as the product labels and warnings etc were included it shouldn't be an issue. All these labels including the MSDS sheets are widely available online. I believe it has been determined here that the appropriate mix rate is 1 tbsp. per gallon, some reporting very effective PC control at substantially lower mix rates. |
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| Thanx guys I wanted to make sure that the prices I was seeing ($85- $95) was right. Mike |
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- Posted by Appleseed70 6 MD (My Page) on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 13:57
| They are. Harvestman was getting the previously packaged 4 lb. for $35 back in 2009. I'm thinking that's not the case anymore, otherwise someone would be remarketing on ebay for enormous profit. How much were you looking to buy Mike? |
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- Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 14:29
| Look up CPS and call them about their pricing. The problem is they can't ship it anymore, as I recall. At least you'd have a ballpark figure, but pesticide prices have gone up quite a bit even with the old standbys. |
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- Posted by wine-maker 6b (My Page) on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 22:31
| Google Keystone Pest Solutions, they have 5lbs bags of Imidan for $72 |
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- Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on Sun, Aug 24, 14 at 6:10
| Someone here should buy a 5 pound bag and split it up, sending carefully packaged pound bags to other co-buyers. At a tablespoon per gallon one pound should last quite a while. Olpea is right about the problem with plant bugs, which seem to be more and more numerous- especially stink bugs, but Imidan is still great on coddling moth and curculio. |
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- Posted by Appleseed70 6 MD (My Page) on Sun, Aug 24, 14 at 9:27
| wine-maker...you're right Keystone has it for $72, but the cheapest shipping would have cost me $15. They sell on ebay also.The cheapest out there was from Sunshine Gardens Punta Gorda, FL @ $85 W/free shipping. Imidan even showed a 40% mortality rate on BMSB, with I think another 40% moribund. That still left 20% unaffected however. I wanted it for it's powerful action against PC, it's really the only insect that OTC products have proven useless for me. I'll maybe look into how much it would cost me to ship a pound of it if anyone is interested. I think I'd want to find a good plastic container to ship it in if anyone is interested. It would take about $75 worth of triazicide to make 100 gals of spray and even then, with lower effectiveness and little PC control. |
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- Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on Sun, Aug 24, 14 at 12:45
| And you can make about 600 gallons with 5 pounds of Imidan and it doesn't get stale in a couple of years like triazide. Get a lifetime supply while it's still available, I say. |
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- Posted by Appleseed70 6 MD (My Page) on Sun, Aug 24, 14 at 13:23
| speaking of shelf life harvestman; Do you know anything about the shelf life of myclobutanil? I just purchased 6 - 16 oz bottles of Immunox on ebay for $9.99 + shipping. I'm giving 3 bottles to a friend and I'll use the myclo in 2 seasons, so I think it will be ok. It's the more recent 1.55% formulation. |
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- Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on Sun, Aug 24, 14 at 14:17
| Most commercial pesticide liquid formulations that I've checked on have at least a 5 year shelf life, but for specifics there should be a customer service site for that product to let you know. The myclo I use is in powder form so I don't have much to worry about (beyond breathing the dust). I was surprised when olpea pointed out the short life of pyrethroids- the commercial version I get (Asana) prints the date it comes out of the factory but no other info on the label about shelf life. |
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- Posted by spartan-apple (My Page) on Mon, Aug 25, 14 at 11:42
| Greetings: I buy imidan in 4 lb lots too. Even with my 22 fruit trees, that amount lasts a very long time. I have used it for 8 years and still worked just as good as when I first got the batch in. I did share some with friends who are licensed I have the same issue on Captan. Buying 8 oz containers locally is a fortune for the price. I finally got Captan 50 in As far as the stink of Imidan, I do open the large water soluble pouches (wearing a respirator and in an area with no wind) when I divide the contents into smaller disposable I do the same on my bulk Captan as I have fruit trees at |
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| Appleseed, I have 75+- trees so I will be buying the 5 lb. sizes and store it. Mike |
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