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appleseed70

Imidan Vs. Triazicide

appleseed70
9 years ago

Can any of you who have used Imidan and maybe also triazicide give me an idea of Imidans effectiveness vs. over the counter stuff, namely Triazicide.

How well does Imidan control Plum Curculio. As other posters have stated, Triazicide does seem to "disorient" (for lack of a better word) PC, as it's snout scrapings seem to go nowhere, but the injury often distorts the fruit and is very unsightly. I have really no fruit damage whatsoever from any other insect ...just the blasted PC. It gets my plums the worst, but also hits the apple a bit, even when sprayed.

I'm actually of the belief that several more effective sprays would be better environmentally than the slew of sprays I currently use. Opinions, ideas, suggestions?

H'man mentioned the other day the use of Lorsban and I've read of it's use, but cannot find it available anywhere.

Also, are there more effective commercial grade fungicides available. I'd like to just spray sulfur and occasionally and in high pressure periods something more effective. Immunox is a good product I'm sure, but at this point I'm just not sold on it's effectiveness and for it's cost I would expect better control.

Comments (19)

  • appleseed70
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Imidan (Gowan Co.): Available and seemingly without restrictions. Seems at least on the surface to be a bit safer than Lorsban. Listed for all the orchard bad guys including PC. There were a few bugs that it needed tank mixing of Methomyl Lannate for control of them (Northeast only). This may very well also be the case with Lorsban...I dunno. Mix ratio very low and cost at around $18lb.. Overall it seems this is the best bang for the buck, which probably explains it's popularity here and in the commercial arena.

    UNBELEIVABLY, I think I even seen DDT available for import from China on Alibaba. Perhaps there are approvals/paperwork req'd, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could order it. The minimum order was huge. I certainly wasn't looking, just came across it.
    Lorsban, in fact it seems after a lot of searching I was finding it everywhere and apparently with no restrictions on it's shipment. The good and the bad of this stuff is that it's persistant...up to 90 days. Scary precautions label. Approx. $30 lb.

    Ferbam is another story. Found lots of it, but won't ship. I may be mistaken (I've read so many labels tonight), but I think this stuff had a 77 day PHI. If so, that's nuts.To read the label on this stuff you'd think it was Anthrax...not too keen on that.

    Found Dithane 75DF with Rainsheild (Dow Agroscience). 80% Mancozeb WP. It averages around $8 per lb. for larger quantities (12lb) and lots more for smaller pkgs (6oz.). Mix rate is roughly 1 oz. per gallon depending. Often recommended to tank mix with myclobutanil to combat myclo's resistance issues. Considered to have no resistance issues whatsoever. Listed for many tree fruits...though not all. No restrictions it seems. This may have potential for the backyard grower. Further investigation needed.

    Myclobutanil 20EW: Heavyweight version of immunox, Im guessing 20% versus the .5-2% in the big box stores. I didn't realize just how incredibly prone this stuff must be to resistance. 3 sprays max per year.

    Thiomyl (Southern Ag / Cleary's) Quite expensive to buy and mix rate proportions are high. Not even sure if it's labled for tree fruits at all. Cost alone makes it dead to me.
    Daconil (Chlorothalonil) (Ortho) : On the lower end for cost. I think you cannot spray beyond fruit formation. I've sprayed this and haven't been impressed at all. Maybe I should try it some more. Maybe the OTC concentrations are too weak. Zero resistance issues.

    Sulfur WP: I've sprayed this a lot in my backyard. Easily the safest of all effective fungicides, but when I say safest, I don't mean SAFE. It's not all rainbows and unicorns. Somewhat weak on brown rot (as H'man said) and only somewhat effective on CAR and scab. Considered to be extraordinarily effective against powdery mildews (I can personally attest to this). Cost is in the neighborhood of $2lb. Mix proportions comparatively low. Flowable/micronized though to be superior to WP's against CAR and scab. Cannot spray above 80F and certain apple foliage can be damaged and it's fruit russeted. Also cannot be sprayed within 10 days of an oil application.

    Most everything else I came across (scores of them) were just different names of the same thing or not labled for tree fruits or in many cases only for ornamentals and grasses. I'm probably forgetting something. Sorry to answer my own post, but I had some time so I did a little research. Just kind of a simple and very crude cost/benefit analysis.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Imidan has kickback so is more forgiving of a less precise schedule. It is difficult to use for homeowners because you have to cut open the water soluble bags to use about a TBS per gallon- dusty stuff that can get everywhere. It is softer on beneficials than triazide and I'm beginning to see real issues as a result of relying primarily on Asana, a similar pyrethroid to triazide, in the spray progarm we're using on the orchards I manage.

    Where I can, I use Avaunt for PC to avoid the mite outbreaks and even whitefly that seems to be the result of using pyrethroids, but I then often need to include a neonicinoid in the mix to quell plantbugs and stinkbugs. Imidan used to generally be adequate all by itself.

    I have been generally able to get clean fruit with Asana, with some scattered issues I believe can be solved with better timing or an additional spray. Maybe triazide isn't strong enough in the label requirements of concentration to deal with PC adequately at some sites- but maybe there is an issue of timing and number of sprays when it fails.

  • appleseed70
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    H'man...what do you mean when you say "kickback". I've heard you mention this before, but never knew what you meant.

    As far as Triazicides OTC strength, I've tried mixing well above label instructions without any noticeable difference. I think timing however may be the key though, but how would anyone know when best to spray. Thing is, I'm always looking at and studying my trees and have never seen a PC beetle. Never. Just their damage.
    Another thing. In spectracides video they show a homeowner spraying his lawn and shrubs and he has no mask or anything, just gloves. I never use anything either and it seems everytime I spray little wind gusts kick up. The overspray/mist is always blowing back on me. I've noticed a few times feeling "jittery" afterwards, kinda like when I drink a few cups of strong coffee. Maybe it's just my imagination, but I think these weaker OTC sprays lure folks like me into thinking they require little PPE.
    Interestingly, I noticed Imidan requires a canister mask for handlers/applicators while Lorsban I don't think did. Just long sleeve shirt, socks/shoes and long pants.
    I've since taken to wearing a good 3M mask with a face gasket and 1 way valve for spraying. It's not really appropriate, but better than nothing and should prevent all mist inhalation.

    What about the Dithane H'man...do you mix anything with your myclo?

  • ltilton
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Climbing around in my trees to thin and bag, I've spotted PCs pretty often. They're small and inconspicuously colored, blend in with bark. You have to get way up close.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The Imidan will seep into the fruit and kill eggs and/or small larvae. Triazide actually has a little better rain fastness though.

    As far as your reaction to pesticides, try to imagine a farmer in an open tractor pulling a mist sprayer going back and forth across a field or orchard. It might take several days to complete the task and next thing it's time to start again- and this continues all season long. Such a farmer spends much of the season in a pesticide fog (and I'm speaking literally).

    According to rather large and lengthy epidemilogical studies comparing thousands and thousands of health records, these farmers live longer, healthier, with fewer overall incidents of cancer than the rest of our population.

    I don't use a mask anymore, spray many orchards with a handgun and a 200 PSI (when the nozzle is open) 4 HP sprayer. I'm not worried, but I'm still proud of my mostly organic vegie garden.

    If you are interested in seeing one of these studies I have one in my files and can e-mail it to you. Might make the jitters stop.

  • appleseed70
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I guess there are conflicting studies out there H'man. I read last night that long term workers exposed to ag pesticides showed a 16% greater incidence of cancer despite being in generally better than average physical condition.

    Studies are just that ...studies. I always look at who directed or funded them. If a study was presented by DuPont, Dow, and Ortho I'd expect one thing...if by the National Institute for Health, something altogether different.

    Having said that, I'm hoping your study is right.

  • myk1
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I only know about Triazicide so can't compare, but there is definitely a timing issue with it that the label does not suit.
    I got it on my plums early this year (without that they're hit hard). They grow so fast there's no way you can wait the interval without getting hit hard.

    Apples and cherries aren't quite as bad but I think I'm not going to follow their interval for the 2nd spray any more after seeing what they did to my plums this year even with an on time early spray.

    I don't know if my PC are getting immune or if it's just on plums but most of my marks on the plums were successful this year. They weren't the odd shaped "drunk" marks I usually see on apples.
    With Triazicide being all that's easily available for me I can easily believe they're building immunity as long as I've been using it.

  • appleseed70
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Agree 100% myk. Triazicide must work wonders on OFM, CM and AM because I've never once had any apple damage from them...ever. Of course now that I've made that bold statement I'm sure to get hammered next year. PC...I just can't prevent their damage with Triazicide. That's what got me to looking for a more potent alternative. You can easily get them and their costs are lower than Triazicide per spray amount. Trouble is that they are only available in large quantities.
    $85 for 5 lbs. of Imidan with free shipping...that will make 500 gals of spray. To make 500 gals. with Triazicide it would probably cost more than $200 and for what is; by all accounts, a far less effective product.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The reduction in expense is typical of products packaged for commercial application. Asana is also very cheap per treated gallon compared to Spectracide's Triazide. However, some other products whose patent is more valuable can get quite pricey.

    There are other problems with pyrethroids and I seriously doubt you could have a resistant population developed by spraying a few apple trees- even if it's been over a decade. By my thinking, an orchard of 4,000 trees would encourage resistance at about 100 times the speed of a 4 tree orchard.

    It probably doesn't break down quite this neatly but there has to be a serious correlation between the volume of the sprayed area and the time to develop resistance.

    Some problems with triazide include a drop in effectiveness in hot weather and a very short shelf life of 2 years. When you buy the stuff from a big box, you have no way of knowing when it came out of the factory. The stuff I buy has the manufacturing date on the jug. I don't think this is true of any other pesticide I use.

  • olpea
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " I read last night that long term workers exposed to ag pesticides showed a 16% greater incidence of cancer despite being in generally better than average physical condition."

    Appleseed, can you post a link to that study please. I'd like to read it.

    I don't know if you saw my response on another thread, but Lorsban can basically only be used for trunk sprays. Lannate is restricted use, so you'd need an applicator's license to purchase it.

    Since you are looking at commercial materials, generally university spray guides recommend the best materials for various fruit pests. Penn State has a good spray guide. Cornell also has a useful spray guide.

    Of course these spray guides are tailored toward commercial production which can have a very different pest application program, as well as different pesticide materials vs. home orchard production. I know Hman has mentioned many times he was forced to develop his own spray regimen for the home orchards he manages, as the commercial guidelines recommended much more spraying than was necessary for home orchards in his area.

  • appleseed70
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    H,man : I'm not thinking PC here has built up any immunity, I think that was myk. I think it's just not potent enough from the get-go. Like you said, it's probably timing, but I sure do spray regularly. I DO however almost always fail in getting sprays on early. I was working a lot early this spring and got my first spray on just after petal fall. NO sprays before that other than a dormant spray in the winter. Every early spring it seems there is always things that keep me from spraying. Asana must be restricted H'man. I find no online offerings at all. Sounds like a good product though.

    Appleseed, can you post a link to that study please. I'd like to read it.

    Olpea: No I have no idea where I read it. If you look at my first two posts you'll see I was online reading and studying this stuff for about 5 hours...I read so much in so many different places I cannot remember. Maybe when I get some time I'll try searching it. I do remember that the increases mentioned was in the form of prostate cancer, and also that for some reason (anatomically) women were less vulnerable. I'll probably start making my wife do the spraying...lol

    Yeah....I have no trouble understanding the lesser need for spraying in the home orchard vs. the commercial one (due to lower pressure). One thing though: many home orchards contain many different tree fruits of different varieties. Most folks will want to spray all of their trees at once for efficiencies sake and therefore will have to spray a bit more often due to the varying requirements of different fruits. At least that's my thinking...does that sound reasonable/correct?

    At one time I had printed out Penn States guide. They actually had one for the home orchard as well. My issue is following them. Father of two young children, work a minimum of 40 hours per week and other responsibilities, sometimes pulls me away. Also if I'm going to be honest, sometimes I'm just a bit lazy and put it off too. I think most backyard orchardists are like this. That's why I think the disease res. varieties are so important.

    What a luxury it is to have guys like H'man, Scott, Olpea, fruitnut and many others here. Really guys...I REALLY appreciate it. It's one thing to read about something and often something else altogether to have the experience of those who have put it into practice.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The comment about resistance was for Mike but it also included other reasons you might fail with triazide. The actual ingredients should work well enough for curc, but sometimes its about luck. It can take me up to a week to finish my spray rounds if rain interrupts my schedule. One site may have completely clean fruit just because it was sprayed shortly before PC arrived- I don't know.

    Once trees are setting heavy crops the fruit can be easier to protect as the percentage of damaged fruit often goes down when the quantity goes up.

  • appleseed70
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I understand....and certainly luck has never been a strong suit of mine.

  • olpea
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "One thing though: many home orchards contain many different tree fruits of different varieties. Most folks will want to spray all of their trees at once for efficiencies sake and therefore will have to spray a bit more often due to the varying requirements of different fruits. At least that's my thinking...does that sound reasonable/correct?"

    Appleseed,

    I think that sounds reasonable for folks with a sizable home orchard. In that case, it's good to look for materials which have a broad label for all the fruits being sprayed.

    "Olpea: No I have no idea where I read it. If you look at my first two posts you'll see I was online reading and studying this stuff for about 5 hours...I read so much in so many different places I cannot remember. Maybe when I get some time I'll try searching it. I do remember that the increases mentioned was in the form of prostate cancer..."

    I believe I've read the study you are referring to. Some forms of cancer are higher for those applying ag pesticides, but overall cancer rates are lower for those applying ag pesticides. I've not yet read a study where overall cancer rates were higher for applicators (applicators studied are largely farmers).

    That some forms of cancer are higher for farmers is not surprising to me. One would not expect a group of people to lower rates of cancer for every single form of cancer, not matter what group was studied. What is significant and very surprising to me is that overall cancer rates are lower for applicators.

    The studies I have seen examined applicators who sprayed products which were much more toxic than products available today. They sprayed when organophosphates were the mainstay of a spray program. Some likely sprayed when DDT was available (banned in the U.S. in 1972). Most probably sprayed 2,4,5-T (agent orange) as it wasn't phased out from agriculture until the late 70s) I've probably sprayed 2,4,5-T myself as a kid.

    Secondly, as Hman has pointed out, surveys reveal applicators (farmers) wear almost no personal protective equipment when handling/spraying pesticides. Surveys indicate most farmers wear only leather gloves, a ball cap, and sunglasses for PPE.

    Lastly, farmers are exposed to so many other hazardous materials (including sunlight exposure). I would think that alone would raise overall cancer rates.

    Given that applicators' pesticide exposure is many fold higher than the general public, I would expect a direct correlation in overall cancer, but that is not the case. I think that says a lot about the safety margin of crop protectants.

    Regarding PC insecticides. I had good luck this year w/ Actara. I don't like using it because it is hard on bees.

    This spring, I decided to see if I could wait longer to start spraying insecticide for PC. I waited till sometime after shucks off. PC seemed to strike over-night. I had lots of curc scars. I did an emergency spray w/ Actara (like Imidan it is supposed to have some kickback). I ended up getting good curative activity with it.

    Below is a photo of a Rosy Gage plum I picked today. Notice the healed curc scar. I have already picked lots of plums like these completely free of curc larva.


  • alan haigh
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Do you have enough of those plumbs to offer at market? I've never had that gage, but I bet it is richly delicious.

  • olpea
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hman,

    I've only sold about a peck of these plums. They are good. I just have one bearing tree of Rosy Gage.

    Even though they are called "Rosy" Gage, they don't put on a lot of blush. They are really pretty close to the same color as a green gage.

    I went out an picked this one just as an example of curc damage. It was actually picked a bit early.

    This post was edited by olpea on Sun, Aug 3, 14 at 22:15

  • appleseed70
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I never find the larvae either, thing is, I don't even want the scar. It doesn't look so bad on the light colored fruit, but stands out and is unsightly on the darker stuff. I suppose some of mine may have larvae, but if it looks like anything more than very light scarring it gets tossed.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The quest for unblemished fruit leads to an awful lot of spraying. Customers that require that have to pay for more than double the applications, and all just for cosmetics.

    The vast majority say, "give me delicious and sound fruit but keep the poisons to the minimum". The only ones I work for that want perfect looking fruit are giving most of it away as gifts or selling it.

  • appleseed70
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well..you are correct my friend...but still, perfect fruit is ...well.....just perfect.

    This post was edited by Appleseed70 on Tue, Aug 5, 14 at 1:22

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