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First ripe persimmon of the season

Posted by lucky_p z6 W.KY (My Page) on
Sat, Aug 25, 12 at 23:06

NC-10 is consistently the earliest-ripening D.virginiana cultivar I grow, year-in/year out. Had my first ripe fruit from it yesterday (24 Aug). Orange, soft(had dropped from the tree), with no astringency.
First ripe fruits from NC-10 are typically beginning to drop around 10-15 Sept, but like almost everything else this year, it's ripening 2-4 weeks ahead of schedule.
HEAVY crop of fruit on most all the bearing-age persimmons this year - limbs are bent down in a major way with the developing fruits, especially on Rosseyanka and Keener.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Lucky,

My American Meader persimmon starting to turn color. The Kakis are getting close to rippened: Giant Hana Fuyu, Ichi Ki Kei Jiro. Nikita's Gift are still green.

American Meader

Ichi Ki Kei Jiro





Giant Hana Fuyu



Olympic Asian pear starting to ripe also.

My Galia honey dew and cantaloupe cross are ready also.




Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Very unusual year - I've been harvesting several Sheng persimmons daily for the past 2 weeks, at least a month and a half ahead of schedule. These go from green to ready in just a few days in the heat whereas usually this process occurs over the course of a month with gradual color and consistency change and loss of astringency.

My American crop harvest started off about 2 weeks ago with Osage followed shortly by NC-10. Quality for both American and Asian not as good as usual so far.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

  • Posted by glib 5.5 (My Page) on
    Mon, Aug 27, 12 at 23:08

Tony, do you have Asian persimmons in Nebraska? That's not supposed to happen! Tell us about cold hardiness, I want to buy a couple of asians next year for SE Michigan.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Glib,

I have alot of Asian persimmons on trial here in Omaha, Nebraska. Lucky P.got me started. I tried to grow the most cold hardy Kakis(-10F). Astringents: 1)Greatwall $25 from Burntridge, 2) Kuyng Sun Ban Si(Korean), 3)Saijo (Japanese), Sheng (Chinese), Honan Red (Chinese). Non-astringents: Ichi Ki Kei Jiro (Japanese), Giant Hana Fuyu (Japanese). Hybrids: 1)Rossyanka (Ukraine), 2) Nikita's Gift (Ukraine). I protected the Kakis in winter from late November to February by wrapping them up with a big tarp from Home depot and stuffed them with dry leafs and unwrapped them in February because of the milder temperature. I don't want them to budded out too early and get hit with late frost. I also grow them on the south side of the house and about 5-8 feet from the house to benefit the micro climate (heat given off from the house) and no North winds. I also keep the trees to max high of 8 feet for easy wrapping. I hope this will help you. My Nikita's Gift did survived the -26F for 2 days in 2007 deep freeze. My average low in Winter around -8F.

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

  • Posted by glib 5.5 (My Page) on
    Tue, Aug 28, 12 at 16:03

I have clipped this, thanks.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

I have a Japanese Fuyu persimmon tree that always starts with loads of fruit, but drops most of it. I have been told that the primary reason this happens is that there is not another persimmon tree nearby to assist in the polination process. I want to graft one limb from another spieces of persimmon to see if that helps the problem. Does anyone want to exchange scions for this purpose?


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Charlie,

Your fuyu drops fruits probably due to too much fertilize or too young. Kakis tend to abort fruits the first 1-2 years and after fruit set will be better. Fuyu does not need to be pollinate.

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

What is best sign of firm ripe for non-astengent Fuyu etc. ? Color or brix or what. What about other cultivars? What is best sign for harvest for drying?


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

What is best sign of firm ripe for non-astengent Fuyu etc. ? Color or brix or what. What about other cultivars? What is best sign for harvest for drying?


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

I am getting a few early golden, yates, and morris burton ripening (falling from the tree). I notice that morris burton retains a little astringency when first picked up and consumed on the spot. Any fallen yates and early golden never have any astringency. Has anyone else noticed this? Things are early this year.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

WLH8723,

I usually waited until the Fuyu persimmon turn dark orange color and picked them firm. They will be alot sweeter then light orange. For drying, I can either dried them hard by cutting in half and placed them in a dehydrator or let them get a little soft then dried them. They are a little bit more sweeter and juicier when soft.

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Creekweb and all,

I did an experiment by picking the NC-10 American persimmons while still green and let it sit on the windowsill to ripen a week ago. So far so good, the persimmons starting to turn color. If this experiment work out then you can harvest your NC-10 before the grey squirrel does.

Tony

NC-10 American Persimmon







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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Tonytran, that's a really nice persimmon tree and the fruit look pristine. Every year is different, and during this one with the quirky weather and a few Just One Bite bars I haven't seen a single squirrel in months. I'm much less motivated under these circumstances to conduct early ripening experiments - I just pick up the untouched ripened windfalls for the day's fare. But of course next year things will be different, so I will make a few trials, particularly looking at early harvesting of Yates and Geneva Long.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Guys,

After a week and a half on the windowsill, the green NC-10 turned orange and soft. I tasted one of them and it was soft, sweet, and aromatic flavor. In Conclusion, I think this experiment show that NC-10 could ripen off the tree in late green stage to avoid critters. Next year, I will do some more experiment on other Virginianas.

Tony

Creekweb, I hope your experiment with Yates and Geneva Long have good result.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

  • Posted by glib 5.5 (My Page) on
    Thu, Sep 6, 12 at 20:39

Just out of curiosity: what do you guys do with all the persimmons? I can eat ten apples a day, no prob, though I would get tired of it. But I once eat 11 persimmons in one day and I was very sick. I found them too heavy to eat more than a couple a day. I love their taste though.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Glib,

I dried my persimmons and eat it all year around and it tastes like candy. You can also freeze it whole or pulp it for later you. I also like it fresh. Below is Jerry Lehman himself described the benefits and usage of persimmons.

Tony

Passion for Persimmons: Grower Strives to Commercialize the Seasonal Fruit
August 10, 2012 By Susan Hayhurst

When leaves start to turn brilliant colors in the fall, thoughts of favorite autumn foods come to mind. For many in Indiana, persimmon pudding and persimmon cookies are at the top of the list.
Terre Haute grower Jerry Lehman�s freezer is brimming with persimmon pulp always ready for his family�s beloved desserts. To say he�s passionate about persimmons wouldn�t be an exaggeration. In fact, Lehman is so enthusiastic about the globular, bright orange fruit that he has dedicated his retirement, nearly 15 years, to developing a persimmon tree that can be commercially produced in the United States.
From Farm to Orchard
Raised on a farm in Berne, Lehman�s family instilled in him persistence and patience, traits key to starting his orchard in southwestern Vigo County and growing it to nearly 1,000 trees. Lehman and his wife, Barbara, use golf carts to traverse the orchards. He can cite the type of tree, planting date and fruit characteristics as if giving information about his grown children.

"Though there are about 20 farms producing persimmons in Indiana, there are no commercial persimmon growers like there are commercial apple orchards," Lehman explains. "In my experimental orchard, I�m trying to develop a viable American persimmon tree with hardiness and quality. My goal is not to mass produce the fruit but work toward commercializing the American persimmon to benefit consumers and provide another avenue of income for Hoosier farmers."
Much of Lehman�s 85-acre orchard is planted in American persimmon trees, but Asian persimmon trees have also been grown from seeds and cultivated in open pollination. They, too, dot his landscape and have been backcrossed to American trees.
"The Asian fruit is really good and sweet and red in color," says Lehman, the first fruit producer to import the Asian-American hybrid to the United States in 1992. Two years later, he became the second to grow and test the viability of the hybrid.
"My zest for growing persimmons comes from my mentor, the late Jim Claypool of St. Elmo, Ill.," Lehman says. "He was considered the most prolific persimmon grower in the world."
Claypool had some 2,400 hand-selected, pollinated trees and was looking for someone to carry on his work. When he died, his family allowed Lehman to move about 100 of Claypool�s trees to his Hoosier farm.

Growing and Storing Persimmons
Persimmon trees should grow in full sun and be spaced 25 feet apart, Lehman says. They are somewhat self-pruning and ideally should top out at 20 to 25 feet high. "You don�t want persimmon trees to grow too high because the fruit falls to the ground when it�s ripe and goes �splat,� " he says.
The trees, which can be purchased through catalogs for about $25, typically include varieties for early ripening, large and nearly seedless. Planting to fruit production takes about five to six years.
According to Lehman, the best fruit harvest happens in mid-September to the end of October. Fully ripened fruit drops to the ground and should be picked up frequently. He warns persimmon lovers that the American fruit is not instantly edible.
"It is known to be �astringent� � needs to ripen fully before it is fit to eat or be used in cooking," Lehman says. "Not often can you pick persimmons and eat them right off the tree." However, he notes that many Asian varieties are �non-astringent� and can be eaten from the tree.
Remember, he adds, that persimmons must be pureed to create the pulp for end use in recipes such as pudding, bread and cookies. The pulp should be stored frozen unless it�s being used immediately. Persimmon pulp must be processed in federally inspected kitchens to be available at farmers markets, specialty groceries and gourmet food vendors. The fruit is rich in dietary fiber, low in calories and is known for its antioxidant compounds, such as vitamins A and C, beta-carotene and lycopene.
"I know persimmons are healthy for you," Lehman says. "But I know what I enjoy, and persimmon pudding is my favorite dessert. And I�m just as happy eating persimmon cookies and bread."
Try your hand at Lehman�s recipe for persimmon pudding. For more information or to request a tour of his orchard, contact him at (812) 298-8733 or jwlehman@aol.com.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

The explanation of the "strange" phenomena of Persimmon(excessive dropping, unexpected maturation etc.) is the fact that Diospyros is a particular species in its reactions.Loss of a major part of the production by dropping induced by special weather conditions causes big problems in the most important european persimmon grower countries. And there is NO remedy...
Why?
Kaki (in different measure depending on variety) ansers with very accentuated hormone reactions to the effects it's submitted. The enviromental effects (precipitation, drought, too high or too low temperatures) induce in it hormone antagonisms. For example the growth favored by the effect of auxine activated through absorbable nutritive elements at the presence of a sudden excessive water quantity leads to dropping of fruits in an, in appereance, contradictory phenomenon, creating a vegetation-generation antagonism.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

  • Posted by glib 5.5 (My Page) on
    Fri, Sep 7, 12 at 19:05

Thanks Tony. In fact I was thinking of drying my own. I have a rack set up in my attic which works well with chili and zucchini, but may not be breezy and sunny enough for persimmons.

I want to think it through (I am going to get two persimmons trees, a neighbor is going to get another two, I want to make sure we use them all). I have been to Japan and can attest that, dried, they are exquisite. But their method of drying, with daily massaging, is very time consuming. Do you just set racks outside, and plop peeled fruits on them? Asian or american? Ripe or astringent? Sun or shade? Raccoon protection?


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

I use a dehydrator to dry mine Asian persimmons and not the hanging way like in Japan. I might try to dry some American persimmons in the dehydrator to see if it turn out ok. I do peeled the skin off before drying them. The link below will show you how to dry it by hanging it.

Tony

Here is a link that might be useful: Drying persimmon


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Hi all. I have been reading with much facination your descriptions of your persimmons. First of all they are beautiful. I always thought of them as a very autumn 'exotic' fruit. I had my first 'Fuyu' last fall and thought it was like eating 'sugar pudding'. I don't have room for a huge tree. Is there a good 'dwarf' or 'semi-dwarf' variety you can recommend for southern RI, Zone 7. They are beautiful! Mrs. G


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

MRSG47,

Ichi ki kei jiro is a natural dwarf non-astringent Asian persimmon tree. Hardy to zone 6. Heigh about 10 feet. One of the most hardy Kaki.

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Tony thanks so very much! I will start looking on the web as to where to purchase this beauty! I hope it will turn bright orange! thanks again, Mrs. G


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Reading what you copied from Jerry Lehman, Tony, you've got me wondering thinking about persimmons going splat, as Jerry said. I hadn't thought about taller trees making the problem worse, but that makes sense. What about fruit size? Does larger size make the splat problem worse, too?


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Hello to Everybody from Europe, from Hungary!

Could You tell me if European kaki cultivars (italian and spanish ones) /for example Tipo, Triumph, Vainiglia, Rojo brillante, etc./ are known and common in America or they are rarities or miss absolutely?


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

CF,

You can control the size by pruining the top. Persimmon will be loaded with fruits and that will bend alot of branches down and that will keep it closer to the ground. Most of mine are grown in the field and the grass underneath will help Cushing it so I don't have that kind of issue even for the bigger varieties. If you grow it near a cement pathway and that will be an isue.

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Tony,
the Persimmon tree can be kept compact, practising the following method:
We know, it tends to grow long, hanging branches because the fructifying new parts developing during a season grow esclusively on the tops of the branches. So, the branches become longer and longer and their terminal parts thinner and thinner from year to year. What to do to avoid "hanging branches effect"?
In the first years of life our tree doesn't request any intervention of pruning. Or you can cut off some branches for obtaining a more regular form.
But! In the year when it is yet big enough and begins to hang its branches, you MUST make the first drastic pruning intervention. It consists in shortening the thicker branches, cutting off their last parts on the tops. So you'll have the following year poor in fruits. But during the same year you'll have a "never seen" developing of new parts full with fructifying buds, preparing to a better fructification than ever, for the next year. You can repeat shortening interventions in the consecutive years maintaining the compactness of your tree and getting excellent productions at the same time.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

I made two illustrations to my text:

What happens if...


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

and what happens if...


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Branches full with fruits and with new prepared fructifying parts, thick branches without bending, strengthened enough by the described pruning method


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Branches full with fruits and with new prepared fructifying parts, thick branches without bending, strengthened enough by the described pruning method


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

To be seen better


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Ninovarga,

Good demonstration. Is that Giant Hana Fuyu? What is the max height of your persimmon tree that you would like to keep? What is the lowest temperature (F) of your region in Hungary?

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

  • Posted by glib 5.5 (My Page) on
    Sat, Sep 8, 12 at 13:25

NV, the varieties you mention are probably known here by other names.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Tony,
the height is determined by my harvest instruments: by the length of an apple-picker and of a telescopic shears, up to 5 meters c.ca. (I can use European measures, you should convert them in Anglo-Saxon measures.)
On the picture you can see our "harvesting system" and the same tree of the preceding pictures in an earlier fase: in the transition fase from free growing to shortened branches. Most of branches in higher positions yet shortened with some evident consequences, branches in lower positions in part not shortened but before imminent shortening.
I will speak about temperatures after this demonstration because it request some longer explanation.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

The harvested part of the production and an abundant quantity on the tree


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Top of the tree with shortened branches and a few of fruits


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Harvesting


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Often harvesting cut means definitive pruning cut


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

The variety is TIPO.
We had a serial of cold winters in the last three years with an absolute minimum temperature of -12,5 degrees (Celsius), 2009-2010 (-12,5), 2010-2011 (-8,6), 2011-2012 (-12,4), the lowest temperature of the last 30 years was in 2005 (-14,5).
But this is a hill, in the valleys temperatures sink lower, sometimes up to a difference of 10-12 degrees. It means that a true determination of the hardiness zone of a territory is always "tridimensional". The temperatures of wind calm snow covered nights are extremely depend on the thermic inversion.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Correction: The temperatures of wind calm snow covered nights are extremely different between hill and valley, influenced by thermic inversion.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

If you are looking for persimmon varieties to grow, here are a lot of photos I gathered from the net. Hope this help.

Tony

ASIAN PERSIMMON VARIETIES 'KAKIS'

Ichi Ki Kei Jiro

Tanenashi

Giant Hana Fuyu

Jiro Fuyu

Imoto Fuyu

Giant Fuyu

Hachiya

Suruga

Gosho

Honan Red

Fire Crystal

Greatwall

Hao River

Tapapsco

Sheng

Nikita's Gift

Rossyanka

Chocolate

Triumph

Rojo Brillante

Sharon

Tamopan

Wase Fuyu

Tamkam

Costata

Ormond

Hyakume

Kyung San Ban Si

Saijo

Coffeecake

Izu

Shin Na DA

AMERICAN PERSIMMON VARIETIES

Prok

Yates

Garretson

Meader

Geneva Long

Szukis

C-100

U-20A

Early Golden

John rick

Lena

100-46

100-47

Morris Burton

Ruby

J-59

Killen

A-118

B-59

Miller


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Hao River is present in Hungary named 'Costata' or it's a different one but very-very similar.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

NV,

Hao River is more conical shape from China and Costata is from Japan. By the way, how old is your TIPO?

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Tony,
now it is 18 years old but these pictures have been made 5 years ago. That time I made them for didactic goal, demonstrating my methods on a Hungarian gardening forum similar to this one.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

For a long while I used to write in that forum wanting to transmit my gardening experiences. I made photos of all species in every phenological phases and explained through demonstrations what, why and how to do.
Now I gathered some older pictures to render more tangible, I began to explain You yesterday.
It's very important to know, how to prune Persimmon.

First phase

It's good without pruning or with some "aesthetic" cut


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Dear Tony,
I'm a bit tired and sleepy, I'll continue tomorrow. I'm posting a picture of a Costata fruit from today, to say good night to You and to all in America because the night will come there too, yet I met it in Europe and I'm going to bed.


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persimmon techniques

  • Posted by skyjs z8 OR, USA (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 10, 12 at 0:07

Hello Nino,
You obviously have a lot of knowledge about persimmons. Thank you for sharing your ideas. Do you think these ideas for pruning would also apply to American persimmons (Diospyros virginiana) or only to Asian persimmons (Diospyros kaki)?
Thanks
John S
PDX OR


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Cliff England offers Rojo Brilliante and Sharon(which is Triumph, IIRC).


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Guys,

American Meader (Virginiana) persimmon picked at late green stage and let it sat on the windowsill for 2 weeks and ripen as well as NC-10. So, there you go. Early harvest if too much pressure from critters.

Tony




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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

I have ordered an NC-10 from England, but now I'm thinking about getting an Ichi Ki Kei Jiro also. England does not have this one. Would you suggest the Ichi Ki Kei Jiro for zone 5 with protection above the ones England has?

England's catolog says that, "They select over many others for the taste, size and cold hardiness." He has Shin Na Da, Tae Chu, and Seo Chon.

I have found Ichi at Starks, Edible Landscaping, and Just Fruits and Exotics.

Any suggestions? Tony, which is your best producer? I think Denver is similar to your environment.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

MG,
I like Ichi for cold hardy, small size tree, non-astringent, and early ripening.
Ichi from Starkbros is very small. El, I have not order from them yet. Just F&E , they send out a good size tree with well establish roots in a bigger pot , but the price is a little higher for the quality tree. If you do winter protection like I do then Ichi will be a good fit. very small tree for easy protection. The two new varieties from Cliff sounds interesting. I hope someone try it out and let us know about it. He also has couple new American persimmons are very large.

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Some of you are really pushing the cold limits of the Kaki, but best of luck with them. I believe I have 21 cultivar of Kaki and Kaki X American hybrids. I have had more issues with late cold spells after the trees broke dormancy than ultimate winter lows. Last spring I took considerable damage on all my persimmon and lost a few trees completely above the grafts. Unfortunately last spring was as well when I put out 12? cultivars mostly from Just Fruits and Exotics. This all happened at temperatures of around 27 F. They handled much colder temps when fully dormant, just don't get real optimistic on ultimate listed lows, if you are in a area that sometimes has extended warmth in spring followed by even a light freeze you may lose more then that years crop, and area that is prone to erratic springs is sometime to be considered as well.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

SD,
It has been a while since your last post. I was curious about the status of your Kakis from that late cold spell. My kakis were spared from that cold spell during late April because they benefited from the micro climate from which I grew them within 5-8 ft from the southside of my house. I have not seen any frost within 10 feet from the southside of the house and no north winds. I know that I am pushing the cold limits for Kakis, but the last 5 years I have seen the temperature drop to -26F and with my protection they came throught OK. It is gradifying to be able to grow kakis in zone 5a (-20F).

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

In review of the damage of late spring light freeze around 27 F after extended warm spring. I had 30+ trees in ground, but only one of most cultivars which is not sufficient to fully evaluate. In particular when the cultivar I have multiples of did not all fare the same. I have Fuyu from 5 different sources, although one appears to me to be Jiro (called Fuyu sometimes on west coat). For instance 2 Fuyu trees planted 15 feet apart from same source same day in 2009 seemingly identical in vigor and health. One tree dead to the ground with only below ground rootstock shoots recovering, the other total loss of foliage but minimal wood damage and fully re-leafed. With that in mind below is report of how my different cultivars seemed to manage the late freeze after growth had started. I don't recall which cultivars were just breaking bud as opposed to being fully leafed but I believe that probably factored in damage. My plantings are located in small creek valley of bottom land with high ridgeline to both sides. My setting/micro-climate is not ideal, but my bottom land is cleared and my higher sloping land is fully forested so it's the space I have available present. I plan on moving later this year to a location I can reside with my plantings. My current plantings are about an hour drive from my residence, and initially I hope to manage both sites. Probably too much information but the difference in temperature in within a few hundred feet with a elevation change can be significant and I believe is more informative then the actual cultivar results.

All trees were completely defoliated with the exception of Rosseyanka and Tamopan. Rosseyanka was not a surprise faring the best, but Tamopan was. Again limited data(1 tree) is of limited value.

Fuyu - In general my Fuyu took more damage then most, 2 trees took minimal wood lose, 3 trees totally lost above graft, and others took significant wood loss. The reason I have so many Fuyu trees, as it is the most widely available tree and among my oldest trees aging from 2009 2010
Matsumoto Wase Fuyu - 2010 trees 1 tree dead to graft, 1 tree major wood loss, 1 tree limited wood loss
Izu - 1st year tree limited wood loss, 2010 Fuyu grafted over to Izu limited wood loss
Eureka - 2010 tree moderate wood loss
Great Wall - 2010 tree minimal wood loss
Saijo - 2010 tree minimal to no wood loss
Tamopan - 2009 tree retained around 50% foliage minimal wood loss. Abnominally? Never heard this tree reported as hardy, but it is an older larger tree, but so were the Fuyu beside it.
Jiro - 2010 tree lost to below graft

1st year tree limited wood loss
Rosseyanka Retained significant foliage, maybe no wood loss
Nikita's Gift
Izu
Ichikikeijiro

1st year tree significant wood loss
Giombo
Sheng
Maekawa Jiro


1st year tree Major wood loss
Hachiya
Hao River
Unknown Huge PCNA
Tanennashi

Young grafts still in pots protected
Giomba (same as Giombo? Listed separate on UC Davis source site)
Okugosho
Tam Kam
Suruga
Cheintang


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

SD and All,

That is some very valuable datas that we can use to assess hardiness of Asian persimmons after the trees leafted out. Are you planning to relocate those trees to your new home.That will be a major task since you have so many trees.
SD and all, I am going to try a new method to protect the Kakis if late frost set in after the tree leafed out. I will hang a 120v light bulb in the center of the tree and turn it on for the duration of that cold spell and wrap up the whole tree with a giant tarp from Home Depot or Menards to keep the heat in. I think that will raise the temperature inside the tree significantly. I think this method and the micro-climate of the house will prevent the tree from freezing. Creek, Scott, SD, Lucky, what are your thoughts about this method?

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

  • Posted by glib 5.5 (My Page) on
    Tue, Sep 11, 12 at 12:47

I have no experience with kaki, but I have a lot of experience with hoop houses and winter vegetables. First off, the uncovered dirt will give off kilowatts of heat, so the bulb is a minor correction. It is crucial that there be no mulch inside the tent. Second, a proper seal is essential. That is obtained by weighing down the tarp or plastic sheet with cinder blocks all around the perimeter, with little or no gap for wind to get in (when there is snow on the ground, the seal is usually perfect).

So do not waste your time with bulbs, the dirt (which you should water a couple of times during the winter, to increase the thermal ballast) will store heat during sunny days, and release it at night. The coldest nights are usually after sunny days, and the system is self-correcting. I eat a number of greens in January and February, from the garden.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

glib,

For trees would you suggest plastic sheeting or tarp material, and would you suggest leaving it on all winter or putting it up when a cold spell hits? It's hard to make myself run out in a blizzard to cover my trees for some reason:)

If you suggest something that lets light in will this not make the heat/cool cycle more variable?


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

  • Posted by glib 5.5 (My Page) on
    Tue, Sep 11, 12 at 14:28

I put up my hoop houses during Thanksgiving week end. I take them down sometimes in March, according to the season (earlier if I eat everything). For trees, probably you want to take them down earlier. I have one 100X40 sheet of clear plastic, and another which is 80X40 or so, and next year I will use them finally, as I am going to attempt Asian persimmons in MI.

The heat/cool cycle depends on the thermal ballast and thermal coupling to the ballast. Yes, it will be more variable, but you are trying to protect trees. Your post forced me to think in a little more detail about how I would do it for a tree, since so far the tallest plant I have grown under cover are collards.

Probably, for a tree I would also put a 55 gallon drum under the cover, or a number of 5 gallon buckets, and make sure that the soil is moist at all times. The cycle is moderated by thermal contact, but also by high humidity, that is on a sunny day water evaporates from the soil, condenses on the plastic, freezes at night (in the morning, the hoop houses are completely frosted), providing extra insulation, and drips down again in mid-morning. Rodents like hoop houses, so a tree guard is essential.

If you are afraid of the thermal cycle, without a doubt you should use a dark tarp. A good seal and bare, moist soil are the two big improvements.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

I'm thinking of how the clear plastic might induce earlier blooming. On the other hand a dark tarp might absorb more heat.

I suppose it's trial and error, hopefully not too much error.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Glib,
That sounds good if you are planning for a whole winter protection. My method of wrapping the tree with a tarp and stuffed it with dry leafs work just fine. I am talking about in late April and early May when you have span of temperature in the 80's-90s for 2-3 weeks, and out of the blue the Canadian winds move in and drop the temperature from upper 80's down to 27F for a day or so, and frost forms in low lying areas and valleys at night. Late frost will wipe out fresh, and tender new growths. I just want to protect the fresh leafs for a couple of nights.

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

The challenges of growing kakis in zone 6 are very different than I would imagine them to be in zone 5 but we still have to cope with the late season freezes. These occur for me on average once a season and usually for just a few hours, 5A- 8A typically. So given the options, as much as I hate getting up in the wee hours to do gardening, I prefer misting in my grogginess during one lamentable night or two to the labor of building protective structures which will just need to be disassembled once the danger has passed.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Something else to consider is rootstock. I have one persimmon from Edible Landscape, purchased about 10 years ago, topworked to Russian Kaki. A few years ago I dug up some succors from the base of this tree and planted them elsewhere. The original tree and the Virginiana rootstock from the tree all leaf out about 2 weeks earlier than any other tree or ungrafted rootstock. I think my best course of action is to destroy all the rootstock dug from this tree, and use others that leaf out later as the stock for future grafts.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Ninovarga, Clifford England also has Vaniglia, I got one and it died, how is the fruit for you?

On pruning, I do something similar, but my point is to keep from using a ladder, they are not safe on my hilly ground. I have a Nakita's Gift, it is about 6' high, and maybe 9'wide. Much easier to pick this way.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Benny,

Good to here from you. If you have the chance to take a picture of your Nikita' Gift , I just want to see how to prune and shape it.

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Tony,
I will be moving those 1st year Kaki and a few other 1st year plants, but I have close to a 150 other fruiting trees, not to mention other fruiting bushes and vines like blueberries etc... as well as a lot of plants in pots needing put in the ground, and I plan on keeping the other site anyway. It is not my residence, just a small cabin on a few acres.
I have had pretty good luck tarping things to protect them, but it has mostly been with a group of potted plants grouped together on a short term few nights basis with a huge cover your roof type tarp. Just keeping the frost off can help on the short cold spell after I have moved all the potted figs and such out of winter storage. I have used incandescent bulbs as you speak on a smaller scale and I believe they help.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Creekweb,
During the 5am to 8am frost period, do you continue hosing and misting or intermittent misting the tree?


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

All my asian pers. are now grafted on seeds from tree,s growing wild.My last tree bought from E>L has finaaly (sayo) died.My tree,s bought from west coast nurseries died long time ago.I have not experience any problems with my tree,s now.They are all coming out of dormancy very late. I pick native fruits every fall from tree,s growing in the neighbour hood that are juicy and good tasting.
Along with my other ones i'll have pers. till dec,that hold me over till next year.PAW PAW'S were a blast,you can not eat too many of them,but it hold me over till next year also.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

I have to do intermittent spraying going from tree to tree; the other is too big of a set up operation. An important part of the project is figuring out just what's at risk, at what time the risk occurs, and whether it's not worth getting up to protect it either because the threat is too slight or if it's a lost cause. I keep a remote to my orchard thermometer at my bedside and wake up during concerning nights to check - sometime the weatherman lies and I get to sleep, sometimes not.


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

All.

I glad there are two options to protect newly leafed out persimmon trees from a late frost by either misting them in early am or wrapping them up with additional heat source like a 120v light bulb. I guess this call a labor of love.

Tony


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RE: First ripe persimmon of the season

Guys,

I just went out and harvested half of the NC-10 persimmon tree. I will let the fruits sit for 1 week to turn orange but firm not mushy. I will do a drying trial on half of them by carving away their skins and hanging them like the Japanese traditional way to see if they can be drying this way since they are an American persimmon (Virginiana). The other half I will also carving away their skin and cut them in half and place them in the dehydrator. I will take note to see if the heat in a drying process will remove the astringency.






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