I used light sandwhich bags to tape them to branches of his trees telling him to follow up with replacements as they dissappeared. This was done and the squirrels consumed all the bon bons to no apparent affect.

I suppose there's a chance that the squirrel population absorbed the losses and kept coming, but that's an awful lot of bon bons in a not too bad squirrel year. I am reluctant to continue to endorse this method even if my experiment was far too limited to be definitive.

Anyone else out there suffer similar dissappointment? Has anyone fed them to a trapped animal yet? That's what I really want to hear about.

I have a bird feeder with sunflower seeds in the winter.
I make Bon Bons about swedish meatball size and keep them in the freezer.
I pitch out Bon Bons to every squirrel that comes over.

Now the Squirrel nests are all gone from the trees and so are the squirrels.

I have read all the endorsements of this method on this site and beyond. I'm just trying to establish the actual facts. When I poisoned squirrels with oats and peanut butter laced with rat poison I actually found poisoned animals. Is anyone actually finding the plaster of paris poisoned squirrels or are they just mysteriously dissappearing? It usually takes a little time for other wildlife to find such corpses and it's usually at night but squirrels are taking the poison in the day.

Scott

Last winter I made two batches, about 60 each and froze them. In February I started pitch Bon Bons to each squirrel that came to the bird feeder. Most squirrels picked up the frozen Bon Bon and ran back to its nest. Started out seeing a dozen squirrels a day at the feeder and by late March there were none. The nests in the trees were dropping in the springtime along with footies that they stole:^) I think killing ten breeders in winter depopulates like 500 by late summer.

On the other hand, I put out two traps Saturday and this morning I have a possum in one and a raccoon in the other....maybe the coons and possums eat squirrels?

Chuck

Your bonbon experience sounds strongly positive since you were not trapping or shooting at the same time. I think you have a great idea of freezing them -- they may lose effectiveness over time.

One other thing that may be limiting bonbon effectiveness is rain -- if they get wet the plaster will set and eating already set plaster is probably just like eating chalk, no big harm. I have a couple "bonbon stands" off the ground I use for the baiting and maybe I should add roofs over them to keep them dry. Dry bonbon stands plus freezing big batches may add up to much better results.

This last summer I managed to get about half my peaches harvested which is much better than past years, but I spent far too long having to fiddle with baiting traps, disposing of squirrels, bat-n-shoot, etc. If I could make a big batch over the winter and then just re-fill every few days that would make it a lot less work.

Scott

I have thought about the dilemma about not seeing dead squirrels and my thought is that they are probably weakened after eating the bon bons, but they don't die immediately as they would if they were poisoned. They probably make good prey in this weakened condition.

I have also thought a lot about what this would do to the predator; eating prey that had consumed bon bons, and I believe the predator would be okay. I keep ferrets and feed them a raw prey diet. They are very smart animals and never eat the entrails. A coyote or other predator would come across a weakened squirrel and make a nice meal out of it. Since the flesh isn't poisoned, there is less harm done to nature than if a poisoned carcass were left. Of course I'm assuming that the bon bons work by plugging up the digestive tract.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it sees to me to be worth a try. Maybe a good regime would be to put out bon bons in the dead of winter, then trap and destroy in the summer.

Please don't trap and release near someone else's property, though! I have friends who live in the mountains. All they ever had were cute little black squirrels. But the city folk have thought they were doing a wonderful deed and released their troubles on someone else. Now the red squirrels have run the native ones out completely.

"they are also much easier to get in the winter since the food supply is limited."

I basically see the same thing. Didn't catch many squirrels this summer, but they did enough damage to cause plenty of aggravation. Not only partially eating fruits, but knocking them off the trees prematurely (squirrels also do this with pine cones so they can come back later and gather up the food off the ground).

Now that the last pears are done, I'm catching squirrels right and left, sometimes catching two in one day. It worked the same way last year. About Sept. they flock to the traps.

On the PoP, I think there is good reason to believe the poisoning mechanism is hypocalcemia. Lucky Pitman, DVM was the first to mention calcium poisoning, but it was Myk who first clued me in to the term hypocalcemia, and provided some good references regarding its effect on rodents. Seems like rodents are highly susc. to it. Maybe as a confirmation, I'll go ahead and feed a captive squirrel a bon bon. I certainly have plenty of opportunities.

I plan on getting some fresh PoP next time I'm at Home Depot. My wife won't like it, but I'll try to convince her that sometimes small sacrifices have to be made for the greater good.

What has been your method of extermination thus far?

Chuck

I tried bon bons but couldn't get our squirrels to eat them. But I may not have mixed enough peanut butter, or used too much vegetable oil. I plan to use a 50/50 ratio of peanut butter to PoP for the test.

Trapping has been successful for me. However, I've learned it very much depends on the trap, time of year, and how it's baited. I've tried three different double door live traps, and none of them work very well. The traps aren't long enough, so that when the squirrel trips the trip plate, the door comes down and hits it in the hind quarters. Some squirrels will then simply "back up" before the door is latched, and escape. I've had this experience with the 1030 Havahart which is 24" long, as well as the 1040 Havahart which is over 30" long. The problem with the 1040 is that, even thought the trap is 30" long, the doors are really long so that they still hit the rodents in the hind quarters. In other words, the distance from the trip plate to where the door hits the rodents hind quarters is the same for the 1030 as it is for the 1040, even though the 1040 is 3" longer on each side. I've tried the Tomahawk 104 double door and it has the same problem. Victor rat snap traps don't work. Squirrels are too big for them. Single door squirrel traps work the best. The trip pan is far enough away from the door, that the door latches securely without hitting the squirrel in the rear end. The disadvantage is that squirrels sometimes have a hard time finding the entrance. Make sure you fasten some bait to the trip plate. A simple long twist tie will work for a small ear of corn. I pre-drill and screw pecans also to the trip plate, although it takes a little time. Once you get some screwed down, the squirrels generally won't eat the screwed down pecans, unless they're in the trap for a long time. For single door traps, I have a Havahart. I plan on getting a Tomahawk 105 single door trap. It has a wire door, instead of a sheet metal door, like the Havahart. I think it will look less ominous to a squirrel and will probably make it easier to find the entrance. I also like Tomahawk's trip mechanism better than Havahart. Lastly, I put lots of bait in the trap. I put a couple hedge balls outside the trap as a highly visible bait to attract them to the trap site. Once at the trap site, the large amount of bait in the back of the trap, makes it appear as another squirrels cache. Once I catch a squirrel, I put the trap back in the same location. The rodents will "wet" all over the trap when captured, and the ground will take on a squirrel "smell", adding to the illusion that the trap contains another squirrels cache. To destroy the squirrels, I throw the whole trap in a barrel of water, but a large trash can full of water would work just as well.

Chuck,
You're right, I see that hypocalcemia is low blood calcium, whereas hypercalcemia is high calcium.

I'll plan on reporting back the results of the test.

Chuck

A friend of mine told me about Golden Malrin. He said it can be mixed with anything... peanut butter, catfood for coons or possums, etc... Whatever you're after. Apparently the poison (Golden Malrin is a fly bait poison for barns) works so quickly a dead coon or possum could be found within 20 or 30 feet of the bait location. I haven't tried it yet but I plan to. I have some Golden Malrin on order from eBay since I couldn't find it at the local hardware store.

If you reject this idea, it would be well understood, but to get the most information from your experiments, consider this:

If the squirrel dies after being fed bonbons, the question remains as to the cause of death. It would be easy enough to open the abdominal cavity and look for any distension of the intestines and then run the intestines looking/feeling for any evidence that the Pop hardened in there.

You may need to trap 2 squirrels so you have a control.

That said, I will be more than happy if all you do is feed a trapped squirrel bon bons and see what happens. The worst thing would be to make this all so complicated that you decide not to do it.

You and I are on the same track. I plan on opening the squirrel up. I used to be a pig farmer and before that worked in the pig industry as (for lack of a better term) a "pig farm consultant". Occasionally I had to open pigs up to try to determine cause of death. I used to be able to identify all the parts of the digestive track (jujenum, duodenum, etc.) and recognize if they were normal. But that's been too many years ago for me to remember much. Still, I would think a blockage would be obvious enough in a post mortem exam, I should be able to see it.

Hman,

I planned to feed and care for the squirrel for a few days to acclimate it to its cage, and to its new diet. I want the squirrel eating normally and unstressed when I do the test. I hadn't planned on doing a control, even though you're right, that would be scientific protocol. The fact that it is just one squirrel test is a bit anecdotal anyway, but I figure if the animal appears to be healthy and not under any undo stress when the bon bon is administered, it should give a fair amount of confidence in the result, even though the experiment is not strictly according to the scientific method. If Thomis is also duplicating the experiment, that should give a high degree of confidence in the results.

I would welcome any more thoughts (as long as they're not too hard to implement) on how to set up the experiment. So far this is what I plan to do.

Catch the squirrel in a single door Havahart. Transfer the squirrel in to a double door Havahart with a food and water dish. Transferring the squirrel would require me to knock it out with ether. I've used once before on a minor surgery of an animal, with no apparent adverse effects, and I used to knock squirrels out with it before I drowned them. Once the animal is in the new trap/cage, feed it regularly for a few days, to make sure it is eating and drinking regularly (my experience is, regular eating and drinking is a fair indication of the animal's health). I plan to feed it pecans, acorns, and corn, all coated with peanut butter. Once the animal is eating normally, I'm thinking I should withhold food for a day to ensure the animal will eat the bon bons when introduced. I planned to introduce three good sized bon bons to the squirrel. Bon Bons would consist of 1/2 peanut butter and 1/2 PoP, with a little vegetable oil as needed.

That's what I have so far, again I welcome any thoughts.

I would have caught a squirrel yesterday, but it escaped from one of my double door traps. I placed a single door trap in that location. I should have one in the next day or so.

~Chills <----- thought all squirrels had nuts...

Actually with the population around here, I'm pretty sure our squirrels are all female and born pregnant

~Chills (just having fun)

I had been feeding and watering it daily, and intended to introduce the bon bons today. I purchased some fresh PoP to that end. However, I went down this morning, and the animal was lethargic. Checked again a little while later, and it was very listless. I don't expect it to live through the day.

It had been eating and drinking regularly. Yesterday, I placed a small piece of wood (non-treated pine) through the wire of its cage. I did this thinking to relieve some of the rodent's boredom by allowing it something to chew. The wood extended all the way through the cage, sticking out both sides. This morning, when I went down to give it fresh water, I found the squirrel had chewed part of the wood (as I intended) but it had also moved the wood by backing one end out of the wire, and reasserting it in a lower "rung", perhaps trying to build a nest. It then appeared as if it might be "stuck" under the wood. I pulled the wood out, but the animal seemed somewhat unresponsive at that point.

I don't know if the animal was truly trapped under the wood, or if it crawled under and didn't want to come out because it was already ill. Either way, this experiment has ended in failure.

I intend to try again.

Since I'm actually trying to do research, I've decided to outline it in a somewhat detailed and formal write-up.

BACKGROUND:

Squirrels have long been a major pest to fruit growers. This is especially true for backyard growers with small orchards in urban and suburban settings. The unusual combination of an abundance of food with few natural predators encourages large populations of squirrels, of which tree fruit can be a summertime food staple. To successfully grow tree fruit requires dedication. For the serious fruit grower, it can take a significant amount of time, and money. As anyone who has cared and nurtured crop has observed, there is often a significant amount of emotional capital involved as well. All to often a fruit grower nurtures a crop through the growing season, only to find squirrels have destroyed the entire crop, just before harvest. Squirrels accomplish this by:

1. simply removing the whole crop
2. leaving some crop, but taking "bites" out of individual fruits
3. knocking fruit off before it's ripe

In many cases experience of the squirrels' past behavior causes growers to pick their harvest before it is ripe, to prevent squirrels from stealing it. in this case, while the grower may obtain a premature harvest, fruit quality suffers.

Growers have relied on many methods to prevent fruit damage by squirrels. Each have their advantages and disadvantages. As it's not the scope of this experiment, these individual methods will not be discussed except in summary:

1. Exclusion methods- Ex. electric fencing, flashing on trunks, netting. In general, these methods have not been met with wide success. Squirrels are agile, small and deft. They are determined creatures when it comes to a favored food source, and will generally find an entry point in the barrier, or make one.

2. Offering squirrels an alternate food source during harvest- This method is generally not successful. Fruit seems to be as beloved by squirrels as it is by humans.

3. Scaring the squirrels away- Ex. plastic owls, lights, sounds, radios, etc. Poor results have been noted from these methods. Squirrels quickly become acclimated to the scare methods, rendering them wholly ineffective.

4. Shooting squirrels. Ex. shotgun, 22 cal., pellet gun. Some locales allow the discharge of firearms, some allow only pellet guns, and some allow neither. Where allowed, these methods can reduce squirrel populations, but it can be extremely time consuming.

5. Trapping- This can be done with live traps, or lethal traps such as Kania, and connibear traps. This can be successful, but can be time consuming. Traps can be expensive. Live traps are legal to use almost ubiquitously throughout the U.S. However, many states prohibit the relocation of trapped wildlife, as do wildlife specialists, so the animals must be destroyed. Kansas extension services recommends destruction by CO2 asphyxiation. Leg hold traps may also be an option, but the author no experience with this method. Leg hold traps are illegal in some states due to humane concerns.

6. Poisoning/baiting- Unfortunately, there are no poison baits labeled for squirrels that are available to homeowners. This has left homeowners to their own devices to make homemade baits. One such bait is a mixture of peanut butter and Plaster of Paris and rolled into small balls, called bon bons (hereafter called bait). This bait is currently popular with backyard fruit growers and is even used internationally. There is some debate in the fruit growing community regarding this bait. The experiment outlined below focuses on some questions outlined in that debate.

OBJECTIVES OF EXPERIMENT:

1. Attempt to determine if the bait is toxic to squirrels

2. If the bait is toxic, determine a reasonable estimate of time between bait ingestion and mortality.

3. Try to determine the mode of action of the bait. That is some believe the bait causes mortality by gastric blockage. Others surmise death is brought on by hypercalcemia (elevated blood calcium). While it is beyond the scope of this experiment to determine exact cause of death, the author should be able to observe gastric blockage. If that is case, it would rule out hypercalcemia. In the event, no gastric blockage is found, hypercalcemia would be the likely cause of death.

4. Determine if the bait causes undo pain and suffering to the animal. This may affect the decision on whether or not a grower decides to use the bait. As almost any form of death is painful to mammals, it becomes difficult to measure the relative suffering of one form of death over another. Most squirrels die in nature from sickness, starvation, or predators. As the author has never witnessed any of these occurrences, it becomes difficult to determine suffering from death of the bait, relative to more natural causes of demise they may face in nature. Added to the difficulty, is that no brain scans will be done, so evaluations must be made on external observations only. However, the author will do the best he can.

LIMITATIONS OF THE EXPERIMENT:

1. This experiment involves only 2 specimens. A treatment specimen (a specimen which is offered the bait) and a control specimen. Since the experiment involves such a small statistical sample, the results are not as statistically relevant as if a larger specimen sample was used.

2. There are different types of Plaster of Paris. Using a different type of Plaster of Paris may (though not likely) yield a different result.

3. Using a different ratio of Plaster of Paris to peanut butter, may yield a different result.

SET UP OF EXPERIMENT:

One squirrel was captured on Sunday, September 27th. This squirrel was the treatment specimen. Another squirrel was captured on Wednesday, September 30th, which was the control specimen. Both squirrels were kept in live traps for the experiment. Water and food dishes were placed in their cages. The squirrels did not require anesthesia to move them, or the dishes into their cages. Water was replenished twice daily. The squirrels were both male specimens of slightly smaller size. For the treatment squirrel, bait was introduced immediately and not removed until completion of the forth day of the test. For the control specimen, fresh acorns were kept in the cage at all times. Bait was mixed using exactly 1/2 cup of peanut butter and 1/2 cup of Plaster of Paris. From this mixture 6 evenly sized bon bons were fashioned. All the mix was used making the 6 bon bons. No vegetable oil was required with this mixture. A fresh 4 lb. box of Plaster of Paris was purchased for this experiment (DAP brand). According to the MSDS it contains 60%-100% Calcium Sulfate (Plaster of Paris); 10%-30% Calcium Carbonate (limestone); and 0.5%-1.5% silica.

RESULTS:

Today is the fifth day of the experiment. So far, there has not been any observed morbidity or mortality in the treatment specimen or the control. Both the treatment specimen and control did not start eating until the second day. As was stated, bait for the treatment specimen was introduced on day 1, but not accepted until day 2. Bait was the only food available for the treatment speicimen. The treatment specimen ate the bait consistently for three days starting from the second day to the completion of the fourth day. Bait was removed the fourth day and the treatment squirrel from then on has received all the acorns it wants. Of the six bon bons made from the peanut butter and Plaster of Paris, 1/2 of the bait, or three bon bons were placed in the treatment specimen's cage at day one. From day 2 to day 4 the treatment specimen consumed two bon bons. At the end of day 4 there was enough bait left over in the treatment squirrels food dish to re-fashion one bon bon. No wastage was observed, therefore by deduction, the squirrel must have consumed two bon bons. Here is a photo of the re-fashioned bon bon. For reference is is placed next to the three bon bons I did not use. The bon bon on the right is what the treatment squirrel DIDN'T eat, out of the three bon bons placed in its cage.

Once the bait was removed and replaced with acorns, the treatment squirrel began eating acorns normally. So far in the experiment, the treatment squirrel has not shown a decrease in appetite, whether being fed bait, or acorns. At this point, both squirrels have not shown any visible signs of pain, or lethargy.

One interesting observation is that on the beginning of day 3, the rodent droppings of the treatment squirrel turned a very light color (almost white) and became larger than normal. The droppings were very hard and broke as if they were made of Plaster of Paris. I have included some photos below.

Here is a general photo of the treatment specimen's feces taken on day 4. Notice the very light color:

Here is a close-up of the day 4 treatment specimen droppings. Notice the pellet dropping broken in half and white inside:

Finally, here is a picture of the control rodent droppings taken on day 4. Notice the black color. Although the picture doesn't show it, these droppings are smaller than the lighter colored droppings of the treatment specimen.

The treatment specimen has been receiving acorns for over 24 hrs. and already his droppings are looking more normal (i.e. smaller and black in color).

PRELIMINARY OBSERVATIONS:

Although it may be premature to conclude that the bait is not lethal, one may well conclude it is not acutely so. It has been 4 days since the initial consumption of bait with no mortality occurring up to this point. It should be noted, that reports indicate hypercalcemia may take up to two weeks to cause death. So if the bait is toxic, it would not exhibit quick results in this case. It is possible it does not cause hypercalcemia at all. Although rodents are very susc. to hypercalcemia, traditional rodent baits use synthetic derivatives of vitamin D to achieve this end. Rodents do not have a mechanism to properly process vitamin D. As such, vitamin D causes their system to pull calcium out of their bones, and into their blood stream. However, rodent baits use vit. D derivatives as an active ingredient, not calcium based products as an active ingredient. It may be while rodents can't process vit. D, they can process high doses of calcium without any adverse affects.

It doesn't appear that the bait causes gastric blockage. The treatment specimen ate nothing but bait for three days, and seemed to process it into "pellets" (albeit large ones) without difficulty. At this point the stool samples appear to be back to normal.

Lastly, up to this point, the bait does not appear to cause any suffering of the animal.

This concludes my write-up at this point. I will plan on adding to this report any further observations I notice.

Olpea

Whew! What a relief! Puzzling though; it does not explain why all my squirrels disappeared. Maybe they were just seriously offended by the PoP.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

I need about 4' of trunk from the ground to first branches. At 1.5 feet up I staple a cyliner of 2' wide alluminum flashing around the trunk(this is to stop coons and possums). On the bottom and top I spread about an 8' cylinder of tropical (paste) formula tangle trap over stretch wrap.

This year desperately hungry squirrels were raiding the trees where the paste was placed only above the cylinders but they stopped when I added paste below. I was afraid the coons would use the paste for traction but it didn't happen in the several sites I did this.

I'll keep you all posted next season if I continue to get control this way- who knows?

Do you have any pictures of what you did?

My problem is that the squirrels can jump from the my neighbors privacy fence onto my trees. I was thinking about putting carpet tacks on the runners to prevent the squirrels from using the fence as a highway. The only problem is that the fence is not mine. :(

The one problem I have with catching squirrels in a live trap is then I need to kill them; something that I don't think is ingrained in the female to be able to do. With the squirrel pole I don't have to kill them!

Thank you for your input!

I'm awaiting his final report on the 2 subjects with continuing curiosity.

Gator Rider, I like your squirrel pole but my customers are pretty much cityfied. Most don't want to see any corpses, but next time we get an epidemic I will give it a try on my property if my shotgun fails to do the trick.

please contact me.

Bass

Feel free to post these results to your newsletter. I don't really consider these results some kind of "intellectual property", but thanks for the professional courtesy. I posted it on this public forum for everyone's benefit, so you can use it freely.

Bass

Best, Alan

I wish I had more time to check this daily... I have a new baby in the house which makes it difficult to find hobby time. I would have followed up to my earlier post where I stated I that I too, would try the experiment... But I wasn't able to prepare bon bons using plaster of paris... but I did however, receive my Golden Malrin flybait poison that I ordered online. Several old trappers turned me onto this stuff and I tried it. I mixed some peanut butter and honey with it (powder form) and placed the "gobs" of bait in locations frequented by the squirrels. I had mixed results, and I cannot figure out why but, some squirrels die within 20 yards of eating the bait and others go off not to be seen again. Two of seven actually lay beneath the birdfeeder and kicked a few seconds before giving up the ghost. Instant gratification.

Gator and others, I found the squirrel poles to be a lot of work for few catches. Maybe I didn't have good nooses but they had to be repositioned daily since the wind or rain would move them. I have finally settled on the Kania traps as my squirrel control method of choice. They need to be checked every few days but they are very effective.

Scott

For some reason, the photo of the bon bons turned out dark. The bon bons are actually much lighter in color. For reference, the paper towel in the background is actually white, about as white as the GardenWeb background beside the photo.

"Water was replenished twice daily. The squirrels were both male specimens of slightly smaller size."

Your experiment shown in summer a young male squirrel can pass POP with lots of water in a dark basement.

In winter when there is scarce food and no open water can nests with POP survive?

You said the first squirrel died of shock alone.

What are your conclusions?

Before olpea's exeriement most of the testemonial for pbpop balls was unequivically positive. I was dissappointed by the results I got and posted my questions on this thread.

The only conclusion or at least supposition you can draw from this experiement is that the formuala is probably not nearly as lethal as we all had hoped.

Squirrel populations naturally decline in the winter (drastically if mast is scarce)and to find out if the bait might work under winter conditions exclusively would require tailoring another experiment to try to duplicate those conditions.

I think it may be asking a bit much (not that you were asking) for any of us to keep trying different experiments to find out if a certain combination of environmental factors might render the bait affective. Or the sex of the animal, or the size, or if it has an empty stomach etc.

Of course two squirrels proves nothing but it's the closest evaluation of efficacy of this bait we've got and I'm grateful for it. It carries more clout with me than all the positive testemonials, but then the stuff didn't work for me.

Two summers ago I tried BBs. I mixed PB+PoP till it was stiff and set out BBs the size of walnuts. I lost 10-12 BBs a day for 2-months+ and saw no reduction in squirrel population. I never saw a squirrel or bird take a BB, however I found 2-BBs with a shallow squirrel bite taken out of it, as if it was being tasted to see if it was good to eat. I found several with bird pecks in them. I quite because I came to the conclusion that it wasn't working as well as trapping and shooting. At least with trapping and shooting there's a body count that tells you that you're not wasting your time.

For my situation, trapping is the best method of control. Havaharts work very well for me. I have an old 1040(2A) and a new model 1040(2A) that are very good at catching squirrels. The older traps are superior to the new ones. Little did I know when I started testing my green thumb that I would be taking up another hobby...squirrels.

Dan

I still have half of a 5lb jar of PB and a 1/2gal carton of PoP in the garage, so it wouldn't take much to resume baiting this winter. Perhape I'll give another shot once we get some snow on the ground. Thanks for your input.

A big thank you to olpea for taking the time to do a BB trial and for sharing it with us. You're going to give those squirrels hemorrhoids.

Dan

The experiment is far enough along, that it appears to be safe to say the bait was not toxic (under these conditions). Might it have been so if the squirrels were famished, in freezing temperatures, with limited water? I doubt anyone can answer that definitively.

My personal interpretation of the results is that Plaster of Paris is probably not a very effective poison. Not only does the experiment seem to point that way, but the more "circumstantial" evidence seems to concur with that:

1. The troubling aspect that dead carcasses are not seen after feeding the bon bons in the wild. I thought I remember on another forum someone mentioned they found lots of carcasses after feeding bon bons, but now I'm wondering if I remember that correctly. There have been many on this forum using the bon bons and no one has reported seeing carcasses.

2. I found a reference to the LD 50 of Plaster of Paris, which is >3000 mg/kg of body weight. LD 50 is considered the average lethal dose, where 50% of the population tested dies. In this case the test population was rats. I would think the effect it has on rats would be similar to the effect on squirrels. These statistics don't suggest Plaster of Paris is non-toxic, just that it is not highly toxic relative to other substances. For reference, table salt has an LD 50 of 3000 mg/kg of body weight in rats. One could argue these "official" tests to determine LD 50 values were done under similar circumstances as mine (i.e. plenty of water, room temperature, etc.) so they may not correspond with results under nature's conditions, but again that is where personal interpretation of the results comes into play.

I'll leave everyone with one more picture, taken today. Pictured are the two squirrels (Sorry, I couldn't get them to look at the camera.) I will probably give them a few more days before destroying them.

Some may wonder how I changed dishes out of the cages, without pandemonium breaking loose. I built a "comb" (pictured above) that I could slip in the slots of the cages and lock the squirrel at one end of the cage. To feed acorns, I was able to drop them through the side of the cage. I still had to lock one squirrel at the end of its cage even to feed it acorns. It got quite territorial over its cage. It growls (I've never heard a squirrel growl before, but they can) and reaches through the slots to try to scratch me (with lightning speed) if I get near its cage. It's kind of comical.

Lastly, thank you all for the "thank yous" and kind words. I hope the results were helpful in some way to everyone.

How did these devices ever become popular when the lion's share of food goes to rodents? Birds will always knock most of the food off the platform. It seems like eco-insanity to me. If you want to watch birds, why not grow plants that feed them naturally? I've always heard that it is a mistake for humans to feed wildlife directly.

OK, I know this is a hopeless crusade. Once you've gotten in the habit of watching these beautiful feathered creatures in the unnatural numbers the feeders bring you're not going to pay any attention to my rant.

I'll probably try the Kania traps that scottfsmith recommended.

The way I see it is if they weren't visiting my feeder (which comes complete with traps and airguns), they'd be at someone else's feeder. If I didn't have one I'd certainly have bait pile to trap and shoot over.

Dan

My father was an avid bird watcher and naturalist who was locally famous as the "Bird Man of Topanga"- a town in S. CA. The ground-squirrel and rat tunnel network leading to his feeders was frightening, although he employed a service to exterminate them both. The exterminators were usuing bait stations that didn't seem terribly affective in eradicating the ground squirrels.

My hunch is, because you didn't elaborate, that you are talking about a commercial peach grower using a poison that is designed for a specific use in fruit production and the grower improvised in a manner inconsistent with the label. This is an entirely different situation than experimenting with unlabled, non toxic home remedies to kill rodents in a home orchard. Remember, you were suggesting that there was a possibility of our discussion here being tracked down by the "enforcers", which seems a bit over the top paranoid to me.

Some things may be technically illegal (I don't even believe that bon bons fall into this category) but would never be enforced because the crime doesn't at all fit the intention of the law. At least it seems your intentions are good, so I thank you for your input. If you want, get back to us on the DEC response and give me the name and position of any bureacrat you can find who'd be interested in prosecuting the evil purveyers of peanut butter bon bons.

My personal interpretation of the results is that Plaster of Paris is probably not a very effective poison. Not only does the experiment seem to point that way, but the more "circumstantial" evidence seems to concur with that:"

Plaster of Paris an effective poison?!, no it is used on childrens arm casts. POP seems inert to me.

The issue was did POP harden in the squirrels and cause death by blockage.

Olpeas test showed the POP hardened into a very large mass and passed through. (The first squirrel died of shock alone before eating the Bon Bon.) Olpeas test used a robust young summer squirrel in a dark comfortable basement with bowls of water.

My experience with BON BONs in winter has shown me is that by the spring squirrels nests drop from the area trees. The few squirrels that came over next summer looked skitish and took one fruit and ran into the woods. Previously squirrels attacked and plundered every single fruit, even branches chewed off. I believe with local area nests gone squirrels take one for food and go away.

A more realistic test to me would be done outside over night in winter without any water only ice or snow.

Can a winter squirrel eating BON BONs and drinking snow/ice pass POP in 15 degree weather.

Your anecdotal observations aren't that much different than what happens anyway on a season with few acorns. Squirrels die off and the few remaining ones act crazy in the spring- but I'd expect them to go after your green fruit. If you include some evaluation of the acorn crop in your observations you might find your answer there. I don't know.

I also don't know that squirrels have any trouble getting the water they need in winter. In the northeast there are usually plenty of streams flowing even if they can't get water from snow.

If dissection shows POP inside, we have the proof.

Just noticed something in one of your recent posts. To wit,
"The issue was did POP harden in the squirrels and cause death by blockage."

The reason I mentioned the relatively low LD50 values of PoP, is that I believe those values are relevant to intestinal blockage as well as any other means of death. As far as I know, when FDA/EPA animal testing is done to determine LD values, they simply feed several groups of rodents/rabbits the substance and when 50% of the population dies from a certain dose, that becomes the LD50 value. I think toxicity would include any cause of death. In determining the LD50 value, I can't imagine they would ignore some deaths of PoP just because they died of intestinal blockage.

The first two sentences are yours followed by my comment.

"My personal interpretation of the results is that Plaster of Paris is probably not a very effective poison. Not only does the experiment seem to point that way, but the more "circumstantial" evidence seems to concur with that:"

Plaster of Paris an effective poison?!, no it is used on childrens arm casts. POP seems inert to me.

The issue was did POP harden in the squirrels and cause death by blockage."

I agree with you that POP is not an effective poison.

The next experiment is does POP cause blockage under outside winter conditions without water bowls.

I still am interested in the results.

===============

No wonder the peaches in the store are all sh*t nowadays. The peach growers not only have to battle the critters, they get reamed out from the gov as well. Who wants to grow good peaches while you get screwed from every angle? That would put anyone in a bad state of mind.

And what are the legal means that work so perfect in controlling squirrels?

With reference to doing stupid things...look no further than our elected knuckleheads in office.

I've been an applicator for 20 years, category 3A and been friends with both DEC pesticide enforcers and commercial growers all that time and I think the man exagerates greatly. Over the counter rat poisons are not labled for squirrels and yet I recieved written confirmation from the NYDEC that it was legal to use them to poison squirrels. Just one example of going against an actual label being legal.

They are very strict when you go against a pesticide label on a commercial crop in terms of applications to the fruit or exposing workers (these are poisons, after all) but peanut butter and plaster of paris baiting- give me a break. The material doesn't even necessarily touch the trees. I seriously doubt even a commercial grower could suffer any consequences for that, excpet the consequence of the lack of efficacy.

We seem to be having a language barrier here. I used the words poison, toxic, and lethal somewhat interchangeably. What I meant was that if it caused death (by blockage, or any other means) it would be a poison, that is both lethal and toxic.

So for the record, my opinion is that PoP is not a very effective means at killing squirrels (by intestinal blockage, or any other means).

You'll recall before I did the experiment, I asked for suggestions on setting it up correctly.

Although you haven't asked for suggestions, I might offer a few, as you move forward with your experiment.

In general, the conditions you propose to do your experiment do not mimic natural conditions. Squirrels are naturally under a lot of stress when they are caged. You can observe their behavior. For the first few days, all they want to do is try to find a way out of the cage. Placing them in a cage in 15F weather seems to me, extremely stressful. Squirrels need to "hibernate" over night in those kind of temps. It's unclear to me whether a squirrel will be able to hibernate under the stress of being caged. I don't think packing the cage with leaves is the same as a squirrel being in it's own nest. On the water, I tend to agree with Hman, that squirrels will find water if they're thirsty. However, as you state, I do think it's reasonable to assume they can only find it in the form of ice and snow, in the middle of winter.

If you do proceed with your proposed experimental setup, I would highly recommend a control specimen be kept under the same conditions, at the same time. If the treated squirrel dies, it would be reassuring to know it wasn't caused by the stress of being caged in frigid weather.

BTW - I misspoke in my last post. I said, "The reason I mentioned the relatively low LD50 values of PoP..."

That should have read, "The reason I mentioned the relatively high LD50 values of PoP..."

When I originally wrote that, I was thinking low toxicity, which of course translates into high LD50 values. However, when I typed LD50, I had the word "low" stuck in my mind.