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| Hello all, When starting out I have found this forum to be the most helpful in all the internet for home orchard questions and so I wanted to create a post with my experiences so far that might be able to help someone else as well as the sites/stores that have been useful to me. My idea is to simply post what I have in the ground for now and update as it goes with what has done well and what did not work. My house has it's master bedroom on the ground floor so the only way I am leaving this place is someone taking me out feet first so I should have years and years of updates to come. I grew up on the west coast on an acreage and we had fruit in our garden year round. Since moving away I have been waiting to have my own place to replicate that experience. Now is that time. I am located in Quebec, Canada in zone 4a/b. Winter can get down to -38C (-36F) while summers can have a couple weeks at +35C (95F). Last winter we had 5 feet of standing snow before the melt in mid April while the year before we had +18C for 1 week in February followed by 2 weeks around -35C after all the snow melted! Last frost is frequently 3rd week of May and first frost can hit 4th week September so not a huge growing season. Since Fall 2012 I have been shoving a ton of different plants into the heavy clay (where certain areas are under 2 inches of water for 2-3 weeks in the spring during the melt) of my south facing acre lot and seeing what survives and prospers. Below are what I either have in the ground or am waiting for in Spring/Fall 2015 (pretty much only 6 apples and a couple grapes that I am waiting for). I try to buy disease resistant and hardy stock from nurseries close to my zone (see below). I have tried to stagger maturation times both within fruit varieties but also between different fruit so that I have a continuous harvest from end of May (Rhubarb) well into November (Goldrush) and I have chosen certain Apples and Asian Pears for their keeping capability so that I will have fresh fruit from my cold room into the late spring. So far I have only allowed my Rhubarb, Strawberries and Raspberries to crop. Next year I will allow my cherries, chums, and a couple apples bear lightly. 2016 and 2017 is when I will really get going. Since 2012 I have been looking forward to winters because it means I am 1 year closer to my crops! So here is the list: In 2012 I got some of the plants from: I get all my stuff now from: I also buy from: http://www.pepiniereancestrale.com/ (located zone 4a/b). Bit less selection but their trees are AWESOME quality. Try to get their 2 yr old plants and you will be very happy. Honestly I have found that their trees seem to be in a bit better shape and take off a bit faster than www.whiffletreefarmandnursery.ca but I think it is because www.whiffletreefarmandnursery.ca is just starting up and does not have a lot of their own rootstock yet and have been outsourcing a lot. That said while the www.whiffletreefarmandnursery.ca may take an extra year to get going their stuff has not died on me, some has just struggled a bit. I have tried to get stuff from http://siloamorchards.com/ but they don't respond to e-mail or telephone. I would love to at least get some scion wood from some rarer apples. It looks like scion wood is easier to get from http://www.appleluscious.com/orchard/ordering.html, but I am a bit concerned about hardiness in my zone 4a/b region so I have not tested them yet. My table grapes will be growing on a geneva double curtain trellis I bought from http://www.agritek.com/wolverine_grape. UPS shipping to Canada was brutally expensive. For an interesting approach to an organic permaculture orchard take a look at (http://miracle.farm/). They did a 2 hr documentary that you can buy the DVD or download a DRM free file. Sorry for the essay. I just thought that as the years go by and I post reports and photos on my experience that it will be easier to keep them all in all in this one post. All the best, Hungryfrozencanuck |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Thanks for posting. I visited Quebec, Canada (e.g. Quebec City) earlier this summer and drove around Île d'Orléans visiting some of the farms and vineyards. In June, there were lots of strawberries and those dark red raspberries for sale on the roadside markets. |
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- Posted by hungryfrozencanuck 4a (My Page) on Mon, Sep 8, 14 at 22:43
| Yep but for some reason the commercial growers here only seem to plant June bearing strawberries. My 10 everbearing Albion strawberry plants that were planted this May and had all flowers picked off until mid July have produced 2.44 kg (5.36 lbs) of berries between July 29 and Sept 3 with more still being produced. Enough for strawberries on my cereal 2 days out of every 3-4. Sure your labor is spread out but would not the higher prices from "out of season" strawberries make up for that? I think at least the u-pick places should plant these. |
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| With a good snow pack and some additional insulation (e.g. straw), you might be able to grow a few of the hardier trailing blackberries like Siskiyou and Kotata. |
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- Posted by hungryfrozencanuck 4a (My Page) on Mon, Sep 8, 14 at 22:59
| Thanks but have you seen my list? I have no further space. My wife has allowed me to plant the borders but the center of the lot has to be wasted by being left open for the kids. Imagine that! In fact I have to move my kiwi's somewhere else because I just don't have the room. I'm going to try and find a close neighbor with a fence who wants some greenery (and will let me graze once fruit happens in 4-5 years)... |
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- Posted by milehighgirl CO USDA 5B/Sunset 2B (My Page) on Tue, Sep 9, 14 at 0:12
| Regarding Green Barn, here's a post from Konrad: |
Here is a link that might be useful: Got my tree order in...think some were shipped dead!
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- Posted by hungryfrozencanuck 4a (My Page) on Sat, Nov 8, 14 at 15:09
| Ok, so here is my 2014 update. Winter 2013 had temperatures to -35 Celsius. It was a LONG winter but we did not have our usual January/Feb thaw so by the end of winter we had 5 feet of snow accumulation so short plants/trees were well protected. Black raspberries - 3 plants were planted Fall 2012 against south wall. Bearing July 22 to August 3 - Yield 1.821 kg. Very good flavour and size. Purple raspberry (Royalty?) - 3 plants were planted Fall 2012 against west wall. Bearing July 29 to Aug 18 - Yield 0.768 kg - the earwigs destroyed most of this crop. They would damage the berries at the green stage and the berries would then not mature. There was 1 to 2 earwigs PER BERRY every night! Raspberry note for next year. Cut tips at 24-36” to encourage branching main trunk- otherwise these guys get to 6-7’ tall. Put down diamatocious earth for earwigs during berry season and perhaps tanglefoot on the trunks? Also they say purple and black raspberry don’t send runners - well I am getting shoots up a couple feet away in the bed - have not penetrating to grass (yet?). Albion strawberry - 12 plants planted May 2014 and all flowers removed until July 1. Bearing July 29 to Sept 3 - Yield 2.437 kg. Very tasty. Enough berries for my breakfast 2 out of 3 days. Blackberry Prime Arc Freedom and Blackberry Prime Arc 45. These were planted as 2” plugs in beginning June 2014. HUGE growth difference between 1 gallon pots and those in old compost heap. Pots - less than 1 foot growth. Compost pile - 3 feet of growth with flowering and attempted berry formation. Flower break was Sept 9. Berries forming Sept 16. Well sized up by Sept 26 but it is just getting too cold and that is where they stalled. I have buried the plants under leaves to see if I can salvage buds for next year. Really pushing the zone so we will see. This photo is from Sept 26. I moved the Prime Arc 45 to a country lot instead of keeping in my backyard because I was not aware the 45’s have thorns and I don’t want them here. Rhubarb (Victoria or Canada red?) - This plant has been in the family for over 80 years. Started on Vancouver Island then root cutting transplanted to Burnaby after 20 years. Then 25 years later root cutting again transplanted to my parents house then 35 years later they brought me root cuttings to me in Quebec. 2 plants planted fall 2012. Overwintered under leaves. Was 8” out of the ground May 10 even though thaw was only April 11-14. Harvest May 23 to Sept 20 - What an awesome plant! Yield - 3.35 kg and that was because I did not want to take too much as it is only the 2nd year. Yield of those 2 plants should be double that next year and I have 3 more planted this year. Rhubarb crisp is the best! Check the size of that stalk! Plants planted this year: You can see my clay soil below: I have dealt with it by building 1 foot high by 3-4 foot mounds. I have areas where there is borderline standing water in the fall (starting late October and depending on conditions can be wet until late April) I try to plant items that have the most tolerance to water. For 2015. So I am running out of room - my wife has put her foot down. Plan is for 7-8 more apple trees along the south edge of my back yard. Probably a mix of M111 and Antonovka rootstock to see what does best on my heavy clay soil. Debating on using B9 interstem or just direct graft and then pruning like hell to keep at 8’. Since I will be out of room it will be time to start leaning how to graft so I can increase my apple varieties. 2015 will be the first year I let my 2 apples crop lightly. Should get some grapes as well. A couple of my romance series cherries should start producing along with 2 of my chums. My raspberries should hit their stride as I have a good 4-5 solid canes from each clump vs the 2-3 I had in 2014. 2016-2017 is when things should really start happening. I LOVE WINTER! It means another growing season will be soon upon us. Sleep tight my plants and grow those roots. Don’t let the rabbits, voles, deer and -35 temps bite. All my trees and bushes are bought from: Whiffletree Fall 2014 order: The large plant is a plumcot. The rest are jostaberry, current and gooseberries. Good root structure. Measuring tape is extended 5 feet. http://www.pepiniereancestrale.com/ - Probably zone 4b/5a That PF24C above was topped at 36" and this the seasons growth in my clay soil but in a pretty well drained area. There is a good 2 feet of growth in areas. I am buying my gripple products and 4mm Dura-Line Polyamide Monofilament for my grape and raspberry trellis from http://deerfencecanada.com/. Redi-driver BOSS handheld post driver for pounding the 2 7/8 schedule 40 endposts as well as all my t-posts was rented from www.townequipment.ca. They buy it from http://deerfencecanada.com/. Drip line will be bought from: http://www.duboisag.com/ I have no business or personal affiliation with any of the above. I had a heck of a time finding supplies in Quebec/Ontario so I thought I would share. |
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- Posted by hungryfrozencanuck 4a (My Page) on Sat, Nov 8, 14 at 15:43
| Here are my water issues. Just to show that even if you don't have ideal conditions stuff will still grow. Try it, if it dies try something else. This is the spring thaw. Photo taken April 12, 2014.
This is a photo taken in June of an area to the left side of my lot. We had 80mm (3.14 inches) of rain in under 24 hours with the bulk falling over 8hrs.
Luckily 2 neighbors over there is a nice deep drainage ditch feeding into a ravine so I don’t have to worry too much about my basement flooding though my sump pump was running every 30 seconds non-stop. The waterfall is below. But here is my yard in the fall. That slice of sun in the back is where my last row of apples are going. So clay soil and crappy drainage aside, I'm keeping it! |
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- Posted by northwoodswis4 4a (My Page) on Sat, Nov 8, 14 at 21:59
| I will be curious to find how your plantings survive the winter. You have a lot of variety there. Don't hold your breath on harvesting pawpaws, though. The trees may survive, but they need a lot of sun and heat, from what I have researched. Northwoodswis |
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- Posted by konrad___far_north 3..just outside of E (My Page) on Sat, Nov 8, 14 at 23:15
| Looking good! You sure have LOTS of cultivars! Please give us advise and or updates on how things do for you. Thank you for sharing! Did you get... I did and very disappointed, out of several canes only one grew! Taste is far from a wild one and NOT productive, better off with Latham!
Thank you milehighgirl for this reminder! |
Here is a link that might be useful: dead trees
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- Posted by hungryfrozencanuck 4a (My Page) on Sun, Nov 9, 14 at 5:02
| Hi northwoodswis4, I will be sure to keep you all updated. That is why I am keeping everything in this 1 thread. You can see what happened from start to finish. My plantings started fall 2012 with others spring 2013, fall 2013, spring 2014, fall 2014. So I would say about 40% of what I planted has had 2 winters with another 30% 1 winter already. I think it is still too early for me to really say anything definitive regarding cold hardiness as 1 - I have not let anything other than some berries produce fruit, and 2 - I have not had the bulk of the plantation survive a real test winter. Time will tell. That said, so far I think the things that have died have been either a result of poor product (I'm looking at you Green Barn Nursery Ile Perrot) or my fault. I'm new to this whole orchard thing so Spring 2013 I had read that after planting you should cut tall whips to 3' or back by 30% to keep a good root to leave ratio - problem is I read this late spring when buds were already swelling - I figure I cut back everything that had already had nutrients sent up from the roots leaving what was left to struggle and under shock. Others had their young bark badly damaged when I tried painting the trunk with 100% latex paint. Some others (an apricot) died because of poor placement - I was new to my lot and did not realize where exactly the wet areas were and it got planted in an area with serious standing water issues. Same water issues for 2 of my grapes BUT they were also shocked because they have been transplanted 3 times already, the original planting, pulled out and planted in a higher mound when I saw the water issues first spring, pulled out and moved 8' further away from property line when wife said we had to install a cedar hedge. They are growing but not fantastic. Is that because of the temperature or the shock of how badly I abused them? Again time will tell. As for the Paw Paw, again we will see, others are growing it though it may be more 5b+ though people have been successful colder. My concern is they don't really like being transplanted. I may just get some seed from someone in my zone and see what comes up.
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- Posted by hungryfrozencanuck 4a (My Page) on Sun, Nov 9, 14 at 5:30
| Hi Konrad, So it looks like you are talking about: I have never bought anything from hardyfruittrees.ca so I can't say. My raspberries have been: 3 x purple raspberry from greenbarnnursery.ca fall 2012. Variety was not specified. From their current website they say they have Brandywine and Royalty. I am leaning towards that I have Brandywine as I see some suckers. Of the 3 canes planted all three have survived 2 winters and this year produced 0.1kg/cane but that is due to severe earwig fruit damage. Mine produces some suckers. 3 x Royalty purple raspberry from pepiniereancestrale.com spring 2014. All 3 grew and the couple berries I got from the 12" floricane were massive and tasty. This will be their first winter. Just as an added note. I have read 2 options when planting raspberry canes. One says just plant the cane (usually comes with about 8" to 12" of cane) and leave it. Others say plant the cane then cut it down to ground level so it will not produce any fruit on the short floricane which will give you a stronger plant. Well this spring I planted 3 purple raspberries from pepiniere ancestrale and did a test. 2 I left with their 12" floricane and 1 I cut down to ground level. So far all 3 produced roughly the same size and number of primacanes. I would say I have the impression that the plants that were NOT cut to ground level have slightly more and slightly larger primacanes and had the added benefit of producing a couple berries from the floricane as well. I should have a better idea in 2015 because I will weight the berries from each plant to see if there is a production difference. Small sample size but what can you do? At least it seems there is no clear winner so you can probably do what you want. |
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| Not sure where |
This post was edited by don555 on Sat, Nov 15, 14 at 5:28
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- Posted by hungryfrozencanuck 4a (My Page) on Sun, Nov 9, 14 at 10:08
| Oh and Konrad, my rational for the huge variety of plants is to see what works for my climate and soil conditions. Sort of throw a bunch of things at the wall to see what sticks. If they die or don't produce, or are disease magnets or I don't like the taste they will get torn out and something else planted. I would rather have 3 different gooseberries than gambling on 3 plants of 1 variety. I would rather get started now and see in 5-7 year what the results are than plant a smaller selection then add to it in 5-7 years and have to wait ANOTHER 5-7 years for production. Full bore ahead! |
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- Posted by konrad___far_north 3..just outside of E (My Page) on Sun, Nov 9, 14 at 14:38
| Sure, if money and space is no subject. And buying from a fraudulent greenbarn without names on plants you're loosing more down the road. >>Black raspberries - 3 plants<< Sorry, I thought you did buy from hardy nursery. |
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- Posted by konrad___far_north 3..just outside of E (My Page) on Sun, Nov 9, 14 at 16:52
| I see you got some bare root plants late this fall,..wonder why? They just sit there in your cold zone and don't do anything except might suffer from winter cold and rodent damage. |
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- Posted by hungryfrozencanuck 4a (My Page) on Thu, Nov 13, 14 at 0:12
| Konrad, Well because the nurseries ship in the fall too and apparently any time soil temperature is high enough the roots grow and you get a head start. Thus far I have not noticed a big difference between plants I put in the ground in the fall vs the spring (possibly because I have managed to screw them both up at times with over aggressive pruning, poor hole planting, planting too deep and having to replant once ground settled, planting in wrong place according to wife and having to replant, killing with 100% latex paint on bark, ect). I know the ground is warm under the snow and not too wet because come spring I see all the vole tunnels through the grass and they would not do that if there was standing water or the ground was frozen solid. That said, in colder zones I do think you are right that spring plantings are better HOWEVER, both my 2014 ''spring'' orders from 2 different places arrived late may and June 1st respectively due to the very late winter we had. So I'm going to keep planting in the fall to get that extra 6+ weeks of spring growth (melt was April 11th for me this year) before the warm, dry weather in June, July comes and blasts the under-rooted plants. From the links below you can see that a lot of them mention Fall planting too. It's hard to know who to listen to which is why I try things out and make my decision on what works best for my situation. http://www.umass.edu/urbantree/factsheets/24bareroottreeplanting.html https://www.extension.iastate.edu/forestry/publications/PDF_files/CTSPwhen.pdf http://www.finegardening.com/planting-bareroot-trees Among others. All the best. |
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- Posted by northwoodswis4 4a (My Page) on Thu, Nov 13, 14 at 0:22
| All winter you will be staring out the window and dreaming of what the future may bring. Then come spring you will watch every bush and tree carefully for progress of buds, blossoms, leaves, etc. There will also be disappointments, but hopefully not too many. Best wishes with your endeavor. Northwoodswis |
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| Not sure where |
This post was edited by don555 on Fri, Nov 14, 14 at 21:47
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- Posted by konrad___far_north 3..just outside of E (My Page) on Thu, Nov 13, 14 at 0:53
| It's really not worth it..not gaining anything, in the contrary. Roots don't grow anymore in late fall plantings, zone 4, it was proven. It's really only then nurseries pushing for fall plantings, ..it's their second income in the year. Fall planting is only good when potted, [not fresh] grown in the pot for a season max. Bare root can get winter damage, roots can get freezer burned. I'm glad that my purchase from Green barn [4 dead trees] was in the spring,...not waiting over a half a year to find out if they grow. [warranty issue not delayed]. |
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| I do not have experience growing in Zone 3 or Zone 4. But I'll have to say that: hungryfrozencanuck is a dedicated and brave kind garden soul. So much work to grow all he listed. Hope he can get good harvest from his great efforts. |
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- Posted by hungryfrozencanuck 4a (My Page) on Thu, Nov 13, 14 at 22:36
| Thanks Konrad. Sounds like you really know your stuff. From now on it is spring planting a for me. Redsun, thanks for the kind words. I'm a geek scientist at heart, thus my detailed reports and experimentation. I have a ton of varieties because I don't know what will do well and some of these things I've never even tasted. Konrad is right in that it is a potential waste of money and space but I happen to be blessed in that money is not a big deal for me when we're talking about $20 or $30 trees and to be honest I like having variety. Honestly, if even half of everything I've planted makes it to full production I will have more food than I know what to do with and will be bringing it into work to share as well as giving to my local women's shelter and handicap home. And since I've been planting this orchard it makes me look forward to our winters because it means that another growing season is just around the corner. That, and being able to just turn off my mind and leave my day job behind while I work in the garden is priceless. If something ends up not working out for me or does not taste good, I will just tear it out and let you all know of my negative experience and try something else. I'll take one for the team! |
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