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Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Posted by tyler_j s.w. Ontario (My Page) on
Wed, Oct 15, 08 at 13:14

My father has had these berries growing wild at his place for the last 30 years or so. We've always called them black-caps and yellow-caps. The black ones you see growing wild everywhere along fence lines or the edge of a bush. But the yellow ones I've never seen other than this patch on his property.

The plants are identical in terms of the thorny canes (I mean thorny...not like red raspberry), leaf appearance, berry shape and size and time of fruiting. They both only fruit once each season from 2nd year canes. The only difference being one produces a yellow fruit that turns darker as it ripens. The canes of the yellow raspberry remain green while the black raspberry canes are purple. The yellow taste a bit different than the black and they are also not as tart. Very delicious though.

This past year I collected seeds from the yellow fruit in hopes of propagating them as the patch has been shrinking in recent years. I'm also doing tip layering on the existing plants to produce new ones also. The seeds grew well this past spring but I noticed that about 30% of the seedlings (just a rough guess) have purple canes while the rest are green like the parent plant they came from. This got me thinking that maybe the yellow berry were somehow genetically a form of the black ones. Then I found this on wikipedia:

"As suggested by the common name, black raspberries usually have very dark purple-black fruits, rich in anthocyanin pigments. However, due to occasional mutations in the genes controlling anthocyanin production, yellow-fruited variants (yellow raspberries) sometimes occur, and have been occasionally propagated, especially in home/farm gardens in the midwestern United States (e.g.,Ohio). The yellow-fruited variants of the black raspberry retain that species' distinctive flavor, different from the similar-appearing pale-fruited variants of cultivated red raspberries (generally the Eurasian Rubus idaeus, but with some being the North American Rubus strigosus, and other cultivars representing hybrids between these two widespread species)."

I'm wondering if what I have is a mutated version of the black raspberry or blackcap??

I have not found any commercial varieties of yellow raspberry that matches the type of plant these ones grow on. All the ones I have found appear to be a variety related to the red raspberry and has similar growing characteristics as the red.

Has anyone seen this variety of berry before?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Hi Tyler_j-
I am not an expert here, but being an avid berry grower, your question intrigued me.
Does the text below fit your case?

As suggested by the common name, black raspberries usually have very dark purple-black fruits, rich in anthocyanin pigments. However, due to occasional mutations in the genes controlling anthocyanin production, yellow-fruited variants (yellow raspberries) sometimes occur, and have been occasionally propagated, especially in home/farm gardens in the midwestern United States (e.g.,Ohio). The yellow-fruited variants of the black raspberry retain that species' distinctive flavor, different from the similar-appearing pale-fruited variants of cultivated red raspberries (generally the Eurasian Rubus idaeus, but with some being the North American Rubus strigosus, and other cultivars representing hybrids between these two widespread species).

Normally, I prefer red raspberries over black ones simply because the thorns aren't as bad. But, if you do have a yellow mutant black raspberry, I think that's pretty cool. Even cooler if you think they taste good.
-Glenn

Here is a link that might be useful: Wikipedia: Rubus occidentalis


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Also, might you have some pics you could share with the rest of us? Some pics of the plant as a whole, and some close-ups of the berries? -Glenn


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Hi Glenn.. yes that quoted text fits the description but there is quite a difference in taste between the black and yellow. I will try to take some pics of the plant today but no berries right now unfortunately. They will have to wait unit next summer.


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Tyler, it certainly sounds like you have an unpigmented black raspberry there. I have never seen such a thing. Note however that all the seeds ratio tells you is that some pollen came from the black plants and some from the yellow, whatever they are. You have more yellow I expect because most were self-pollinated. This could have happened even if the yellow was one of the yellow versions of red raspberries (which it sounds like it isn't).

Scott


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Scott-
Wouldn't it be better to propagate these plant using root cuttings instead of seeds? Or, will raspberries produce true from seeds?

tyler_j-
Have you ever thought about propagating these "mutants" for others? (For a price of course). Im sure others here could give you easy instructions. If there arent any negative responses like "mutant yellow black raspberries taste terrible!", then I would be interested in growing a unique berry like this. -Glenn


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Scott, I think you are right about the different pollen giving me 2 kinds of seedings. It will be interesting to see what kind of berry they produce next year though.

Glenn, I am also propagating by tip layering/root division. The entire population has dwindled to about 25 plants so I'm being cautious to preserve it. Unfortunately over the years the migration of the patch has lead it to a dead end of sorts. It has run into my fathers lawn so his lawn mower is not doing the patch any favours. All remaining plants will be moved to a safer location once they go dormant so I can work on repopulating the patch. I just tried the seeds to see if they would work. I am keeping them separate from the original plants. I realize they may not be identical to the original and do not want to get them mixed together. Once the patch gets going again I will get in touch with you about getting some plants. Maybe I should look into a patent eh lol???

Here are some pics of the plant I took this morning (Oct.16th). I will take more in the spring showing the flower and berry.

yellow raspberry cane

Yellow raspberry leaf

Yellow raspberry plant


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Great! Thanks for the pics! Yeah, the purple canes certainly look like a black raspberry cane. Now... if we could just make 'em thornless (like they've been able to do with some raspberries) Do you have them trellised? If not, that could help them too. If not a patent, then at least a name... like "Tyler's dad's pigmentless blackberries" or "Tyler's mutant yellow caps" :-)


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Actually Glenn there are no pictures of the black raspberry (purple canes) in these pics. These are all yellow raspberry plants that I've transplanted to my place. The first pic also shows the previous years dead wood that you might be thinking is purple. Thanks for the tips on names lol.. I'll have to think about a good one... maybe something a bit more appealing though lol.


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

I thought I saw a slight purplish hue in the 1st pic that I recognized from my own black raspberries... but, now going out and looking at my blackberries and looking at your pics again, my black raspberries are much more purple. Thanks for the clarification. -Glenn


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

If there is a decent-sized patch of the yellow ones, I'd try digging a couple of canes with a ball of soil and transplanting to a nice, rich, sunny bed where they can grow. I'd expect any raspberry treated this way to give good new growth and spread a lot, resulting in many plants in a few years.


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Hi ladyslppr, yes I will be moving the plants to a better location so they can continue to grow. Unlike red raspberries though they don't send out runners to quickly build up the patch. These only multiply by the tips rooting. This can happen naturally if the cane grows long enough and the tip works its way into the ground but in this case human intervention will make sure the tip gets rooted.


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Tyler,

don't know if you're still reading this thread, but I've been growing "wild" black raspberries here in NE Ohio for the last 30 years, and one really good thing to do to promote vigorous growth of the younglings is to make sure to mulch with loads of oak humus if it's available. I've found that the best plants and the fastest growing younglings grow in my yard in areas in which I've added _large quantities_ of oak humous.

lol, in my yard they grow and propogate like weeds, even though I get little direct sunlight, (in fact almost no direct sunlight, due to "high canopy" oak/hickory forest)

Largest, most flavorful berries in my patches come out of the most mulchy soil, maybe due to the acid, maybe due to something else the worms leave behind...though I'm just a hack, so I can't say with authority, just experience.

regards,


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Thanks for the tip.. I do try to keep them well mulched and they are really doing well this year.

Do you prune your bushes to promote multiple fruiting laterals or do you let it grow as a trailing vine and support it on a trellis?? I'm torn to nip this years growth (at about 2 feet currently) as I've always left them alone and they grow quite long. Under good conditions they can grow 8 feet or more and produce hundreds of berries per plant. Maybe I will try a couple and see how berry production varies.


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Wow - we've got the exact same thing going in our backyard! We've got a black raspberry and (what we've been calling) a golden raspberry growing completely wild from a crack between our driveway and the neighbor's. For years, we cut them back without realizing what they were. Once we did realize, we've been cultivating them.

I'm really curious about what you learned that the goldens may be a mutant strain. I'm going to look into that some more.

We have waaaay more black ones than gold ones. We support them all along a chain link fence. We've been letting the tips root along the fence, and last year we let the golden root into a pot, which we then transplanted farther along down the fence. And we gave several baby raspberries away that way, too.

Since the canes produce once in their second year and then no more, right after the harvest we prune back everything that gave us berries and we tie the new growth along the fence. We've also found, though, that if you let the canes grow too long, they don't give you anything on the tips that are way out. I'll try to take a picture of what we've got this year, because we've got several canes that don't even have leaves toward the ends while the center of the plants is producing heavily. We'll be trimming our canes this year.

These pictures are from last year. Here you can see them growing in the pavement -

raspberries

At the bottom, you can see our goldens, which tend to be smaller than the black ones.

raspberries

And here you can see that the black ones aren't ripe quite yet. And at the bottom left is a patch we've let root into a new plant.

raspberries


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Hi Crispyrice. Yep I think we have the same thing growing!! I would imagine if the yellows were moved to a separate location they might grow better for you? A crack between concrete might not be the most beneficial place. Mine are fairly comparable to the blackcaps in size.

From what I've read berries can suffer genetic mutations during the berry growing stage. Specifically if they are exposed to a combination of high temperatures and high UV for a prolonged period apparently it can mutate the gene that is responsible for pigment. As a result the affected drupelet in the berry will not have the normal colour. I think the seed in that drupelet if grown produces a plant where all berries have no pigmentation.


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Yes, we've been pretty amazed that they survived, given their growing conditions, LOL. We're equally surprised that the neighbor never chopped them off, either. We transplanted a golden last year into a better spot and it's doing well, but we'll really see next year how it does fully in the ground with more TLC.

That's very interesting about the mutation. It wouldn't surprise me that we had a heat wave during a berry stage a few years ago. And with all the pavement around, it's particularly hot in that spot.

Let me know how the seed works. I don't know yet if we'll get goldens or blackcaps from the canes we let root. I was assuming they'd be golden, but I assumed they were totally independent plants in the 1st place. I'll let you know.


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

My yellowcaps are just coming into blossom now.

yellowcaps in blossom

yellowcap blossom2


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

Berries starting to develop.

berries in green stage


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

I have those growing all over my neighbourhood wild and in the next town. Some are in front of people's houses, there's some by the train tracks, just about everywhere and no one seems to care about them as much as I do.
They are black raspberries pretty much all over near me, but the yellow ones were a surprise. I didn't know they existed until I saw them by the train track. I thought they weren't ripe yet, but they are wonderful! They are also in front of some guy's house with black ones, so perhaps it is a mutation.

How long do they take to ripen? I can't wait any longer. I want to eat those berries. I wonder if it's possible to grow them on my apartment deck...

There's also some berries that aren't black berries but something else. They are sour. I don't like them and there are black berries behind the supermarket.


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

They usually ripen here around the beginning of July or so. They ripen the same as the black raspberry. I'm not sure if they would grow well on an apartment balcony but if thats your only option why not give it a try?


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RE: Yellow Raspberry / Black Raspberry

  • Posted by tyler_j Ontario, Canada (My Page) on
    Tue, Jul 7, 09 at 13:08

Here are some updated pictures of the ripe berries:

berries on plate
Yellowcaps
yellowcap plant


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