Scott

Another thought: it also appears as though dormant fungicide applications may be of indispensable value. Possibly my dormant chlorothalonil/ sulfur application does more than I previously thought.

Also it was interesting to see the evolution of sprays over the decades to combat ever increasing incidence of SB/FS. Other than the discontinuation of lead in insecticidal applications the most obvious reason for this would be resistance development it seems.

I had read somewhere a long time ago in some university literature the suggestion of including sulfur to synthetic fungicides to combat resistance. I've been doing that and based on all I've read and learned here coupled with my observations I'm going to continue that practice for those sprays where I include a synthetic. It seems to make sense and so far sounds as though it is supported by extension in research even though I'm not aware of it ever being tested solely that way. I'd bet synthetic efficacy would be enhanced by the addition of sulfur. perhaps greatly and almost certainly in the long term (which would be almost impossible to quantify).

Thanks for the link Scott, it was an interesting read.

A lot of times the combinations are to prevent resistance development, with Captan often being to go-to additive because it is very resistant to resistance ( a more complicated lock, so to speak).

But you make a good point, especially considering that Flint is not a complicated lock so it is being recommended alone only because of efficacy against current strains of summer fungus and not because of a lack of danger to development of resistance, apparently.

Still, I'm pretty sure that, say, Captan, alone would provide better protection than sulfur alone, and I believe that commercial growers sometimes rely on it alone to control summer fungus. It is very sticky stuff but remains active for a shorter time than something like Flint.

In the end, I don't want people to believe that mixing myclo with sulfur is their best shot at controlling sooty blotch at a good price. I would recommend Captan for that purpose and Mancozeb if you wanted to take it a step further unless someone was determined to do it without synthetics. I don't know if myclo has any efficacy against summer fungus at all- never encountered the suggestion that it does.

Another affective material that's not too expensive is Ziram. Double A Vineyards in NY sells it by mail.

For the record, I didn't exactly recommend sulfur for sooty blotch, I just shared my opinion of it's effectiveness in a discussion concerning SB. I was speaking generally, but also in regards to SB because it must be effective in that I've never. ever once had even the faintest touch of it, even back when I used nothing else...only sulfur. It works for me I believe because I apply it at at least max strength and I'm meticulously thorough in my application. I also included the cost aspect which is to say for a lower cost (much, much lower) and perhaps (depending on research data) lesser control you can easily control SB and FS...which I have imo clearly proven beyond any reasonable doubt through multi-year results in an area that is likely more prone to it than even your own. I am aware and was before that there are fungicides that are more effective for different targets than is sulfur, but each comes with it's own pros and cons. The pros of sulfur are undeniable because a lot of folks (not you) consider things based on a cost vs. effect basis instead of "damn the torpedoes...I want the biggest gun available no matter the cost".
Harvestman...you know more than me..I won't deny that. but you don't know everything...nobody does. You seem to think I'm suggesting spraying with chamomile tea or soapy water or suggesting a sprinkling with rainbows and unicorns. Sulfur is not that stuff...it's a real and effective material. If I were to recommend an inexpensive (relatively) option for SB/FS (where it is ALREADY evident) then yeah...I'd go with something like Captan.
Thing is. and this is what you are missing; I'm of the opinion that with good dormant sprays (I've only done so-so dormant sprays with Daconil/sulfur) that you can use sulfur in a high spray program like mine using sulfur as your primary or perhaps even sole fungicide and not have to worry with the little stuff, like SB/FS (barring an odd weather year or something). You won't have to worry with it because you won't see it. When I repeat spray it's to up the bug protection and it'd be foolish to not just dump in a cup of sulfur.
Now...having said that, I have good air movement here and I keep my trees somewhat open and airy which I think is more important than any fungicide (or as important anyway)...upper tier or no.
You think I pay no attention to research data (partly my fault), but if you knew me in person you'd know nothing could be further from the truth. Sulfur has mountains of data to support it's effectiveness as a fungicide and contrary to data or your opinion it does have lasting effectiveness. None of it lasts very long I don't care what their literature wants to say. Sulfur is like the aspirin of fungicides...the old and proven vs. the Advils and Tylenols with their massive advertising campaigns. On that note..I read the other day that if Aspirin were just discovered today you would need a prescription to get it. Too strong for OTC remedy because of it's blood thinning, ironically enough being just one of it's modes of operation.
I also did not recommend myclo and sulfur (at least I don't think I did). My experience with that combo are far too few to give anything other than a "wow...that seemed to work well" result. Also. I was referring to Scott's link where combination sprays were mentioned. By extension, I mentioned the suggestion I'd read years ago of adding sulfur to synthetics. I can probably find that because I might remember where I read it. This makes good sense to me, because if I'm spraying a pricey synthetic I certainly don't want resistance. but I also don't want to spend another paycheck for that addition. It's only logical then that sulfur would come to mind...right? It has the least (in fact no res. dev. proven) issue in this regard...and it's cheap...and, oh yeah it kills mites, thrips and aphids.
Even Pristine cannot offer that even at +2,450% the cost (two-thousand four hundred fifty percent). That is by weight and that may be misleading, I'll have to look into it's mix rate/weight ratio to see just how much (if at all), but I'll agree it's probably skewed. That is however. using pretty conservative mathematics weighted toward Pristine.

That's all I'm trying to say. But I got more if needed. I'll look into the Ziram...I've heard of it but have never priced it or studied it individually.

Sooty blotch doesn't usually show visible symptoms until quite late in the season, hence all the recent posts concerning it. So you'd recommend Captan, or Mancozeb if willing to take it a step further? How much further?

So, if I noticed SB/FS symptoms on my Honeycrisp on July 4th while cooking out with my family in Z6. what then?
You'd say "hit them with some Mancozeb"...right?
Are you aware Mancozeb has a 77 day PHI?

Honeycrisp harvests September 10.

Note: July,4th is way earlier than I think SB/FS symptoms become largely noticeable as is evidenced by the recent rash of posts concerning it. Symptoms would likely be later. Just being more than fair here and more fair than is due.

Harvestman...we got a math problem.

Mancozeb also only rates a 3 for SB/FS control, better than Sulfur, but nothing to write home about. It's also quite a bit more expensive. If one was to spray with sulfur regularly as he/she could likely easily afford to do then the aforementioned SB/FS may not even be an issue. This disease is most often born in spring's cool damp weather. Spray early and often. Dormant sprays are important.

Enough of that...let's move on to Captan

Captan's SB/FS control rating ? Pretty decent, it rates a 3 also, but this isn't just any old Captan...this is the 50W
stuff that you will not find in any Home Depot or Lowe's or garden center. This is the "big boy" Captan. The "big boy" Captan comes with a big boy price, actually it's very reasonable at roughly triple the cost of sulfer, however it takes exactly 1/2 as much (just for SB/FS control).

PHI for Captan alone is 0 days.

If I were looking to choose a clear winner here there would be none. It's all relative. Cost is ALWAYS a consideration as it should be. In this particular comparison Mancozeb would be a loser based on cost and PHI and efficacy, but if it were rusts we were talking about it'd be a whole different story. We didn't even get in to environmental considerations which is good, because Sulfur would win that every time (although it's not great either). Mammalian toxicity would likely favor Sulfur as well.

If it were me (and it is), I'd choose Captan and Sulfur as my base fungicides using priceyer synthetics when absolutely called for. I'm making this proclamation for the backyard orchardists. Commercial growers have a different cost vs. benefit analysis to work with and sometimes even 10% greater certainty on an issue is worth a lot more money. They also grow in mass and I figure face greater disease pressure, Not all the time though, their orchards have been chosen in areas of low frost, good air flow and good drainage. A lot of us do not have these luxuries.

Here's the primary source of data though there are others and if required let me know

http://ipm.ncsu.edu/apple/orchardguide/FungicideTable.pdf

I'm looking into this Ziram Harvestman and it looks promising, but it requires Topsin or some other to achieve broad spectrum as do most.

They don't just combine them for disease resistance. They are most often combined due to the fact that few have the wide spectrum activity that growers need/want.
The same can be said for insecticides like Imidan for example,

The link:

http://www.apsnet.org/publications/plantdisease/backissues/Documents/1993Articles/PlantDisease77n11_1114.PDF

Although Sulfur was exempted from residue limitations (presumably due to negligible toxicity) it too was analyzed for residue accumulation and as expected (not being a systemic) was way lower than the others.

Yet another issue in Sulfer's favor I hadn't even considered.

The research you provided is not a study to determine the efficacy of myclo and sulfur to control summer fungus- there is a single sentence about a single year where trees that had this combination didn't have sooty blotch, but absolutely no statement by the studies author that this had any significance in terms of info about the control of sooty blotch or the synergistic properties of the combination of these two materials. This was simply not the subject of the study.

Meanwhile you personalize this by defining my nature as cynical (we don't know each other, by the way) which is clearly derogatory and against the rules of the forum.

I am skeptical of claims that seem to me to make an excessive leap from very limited anecdotal observation and may make things more difficult for people to realize the joy of harvesting their own fruit- that is all.

In the future I'd appreciate it if you would simply stick to the discussion and not venture into the business of defining other member's "nature" in negative terms or otherwise personalizing these discussions with berating comments.

Contradicting and challenging claims is fine and an essential part of a forum such as this- why not just stick with that?

You've challenged me multiple times. and your right. challenging in a public forum is normal I guess. I'm not being nasty, but my writing comes through that way I guess. Your's sometimes does too.

Anyway...the Ziram sounds great. 10 lbs. for $60 is cheaper than anything else available per treatment quantity that I know of and it controls all the major apple diseases when combined with Topsin. Question is. how much is the Topsin and is it really needed?

Do you use this stuff? Why do you suggest myclo so often and not Ziram? I've never even heard this stuff mentioned in here till now.
For whatever reason I prefer the wettable powders.

I'm in a pretty bad mood when I fulfill the 3rd definition but I admit to being capable of assuming the role. The 2nd is not one I've tried.

I know that my style of asserting opinions can be rough, but I believe my motives are about providing clarification and not to tear other people down to raise my own status- even if it may sometimes seem that way. I am trying to reduce my confrontational tone while emphasizing my points, but it is a difficult balance, sometimes. I really want this site to be a valid source of information.

Ziram is in the EDBC class of fungicides that the gov is pulling back on because of residue issues, which probably has something to do with the research you sited because such fungicides have long been instrumental in controlling scab. I guess it's a cousin of Mancozeb, which is a very common sooty blotch treatment.

I stopped spraying for summer fungus here in mid-Aug and am now seeing it on the later varieties of fruit here, probably because it's been relatively warm the last 6 weeks trees have been unprotected. Other seasons the fruit has remained cleaner at this time. Probably one more spray on the first week of Sept would have led to pristine late apples this season. They don't look too bad, though, not even Goldrush.

Perhaps, but with a -63 day PHI, it would be a much more useful one. Maybe.

The Ziram you cited is also DF. I want a wettable powder I can spray (without an Agcat or helicopter). Ziram also has (I've recently discovered) just terrible resistance issues, even worse than myclo. In fact, the strongly worded recommendation is for no more than 1 spray per year. Still useful for sure, but at just one spray I need a smaller available quantity and it needs to be WP.
Are the residue issues really that bad? It is a non-systemic.

At any rate, it appears the WP version of Ziram is unavailable in the USA (you can find it on ebay in Italy). Unfortunately it seems it's a no-go. I'm gonna look into the Captan. it's non-combination wide spectrum control is overall as good anyway. It's also not a carbamate so it's maybe safer and doesn't have the resistance issues. No wonder it's been so popular for so darn long.
The DF version of Ziram isn't capable of being liquid sprayed....is it?