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Shin persimmon astringent

Posted by harvestman 6 (My Page) on
Sat, Nov 5, 11 at 8:48

A few years back I read an article in Hortideas about a non-astringent persimmon that was exceptionally hardy. The source of the article was a nursery in Kentucky that was also a source for the variety which I promptly purchased.

Now I'm harvesting the fruit and it is very sweet and good but highly astringent until soft-ripe, which is a big disappointment. I love a firm, sweet persimmon of the Fuyu type and this ain't it. It's still well worth having for it's precocious fruiting which began on its second year.

One thing I find surprising is that it bears seeded fruit without cross-pollination. The seed is hard and appears fully formed, so I'm thinking about trying to grow it from seed as there would seem to be a good chance the trees would be similar to the parent. Any thoughts from you persimmon growers out there.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Hman, if it has seeds it is probably because it had both male and female flowers (I am assuming you have no other persimmon trees nearby). My understanding is persimmons that are not pollinated will not have seeds.

I don't know about the Shin variety so I can't add anything there. Reading the catalog description it sound like they are stating it can be firm-ripe and not astringent if left on the tree a long time, not that it is a completely non-astringent variety.

Scott


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Scott, I'm not very knowledgeable about persimmon's as the only two kaki's I manage are my own trees. I have read that native varieties produce seedless fruit when they aren't pollinated by another variety, although I don't know if this is always so or just sometimes, some varieties.

I hadn't actually thought it through, but, of course, any tree that is self fertile is dieocious and self compatible to it's own male pollen which I believe can be part of the same flower. Been a while since my last botany class, though. Are you saying that some persimmons have separate male and female flowers but not all?

At any rate, if I plant the seeds there's probably a good chance it will be similar to the parent- at least until someone tells me otherwise.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Hman,
I think you may have misworded, or maybe I need further schoolin', but from my limited knowledge...
"any tree that is self fertile is dieocious and self compatible to it's own male pollen" wouldn't that be described as "synchronous monoecious" one house for the two? Especially if they're grafted 'clones' auto-pollinating?
Sometimes it's hard for me to sort it out, but the Greek logos helps me out a bit, unless I'm totally whacked in my understanding.
Where as dieoecious means two separate houses for the 'genders'.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Noogy, you're right- as I said, long time since I took botany- should have written monoecious. Never knew the term "synchronous monoecious"- don't think it was covered in Botany 101. It means the same as self-fertile, does it not?

I'm too tired from dealing with our Oct. snow and 5 day power outage to double check my terms, although you've got me doing just that. Thanks for the fact check. I do like to get my facts straight- helps me create the illusion that I know what I'm doing.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Hman,
It's been almost 20 yrs since a botany class for me too, but since covering progyneous/protanderous characteristics in Pecans that are also monoecious, I am recently refreshed.
Some of the monoecious plants produce pistillate flowers before pollen/and vice versa requiring 'cross pollination' Progynous/protandrous. I don't know if they pollinate themselves, though.

I would rather have the hands on horticultural experience/degree as you do vs. come to my conclusion through the back door of a pecan study!

I hope all your efforts saving the trees pays off, bro. I'm reminded of the uphill battle faced by all small farmers who risk a lot to bring in a crop.
While you were brushing snow, we were salvaging #2bosc pears that we were invited to collect from the grounds of an orchard. Really good canned, the ripe ones went into sauce.
I'm gonna get some of those harrow sweets too.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Me, I never even took Botany, I just read a lot of books and webpages.

Yes some persimmons have both male and female flowers. I find it odd that there is no good list of the varieties producing male flowers out there, it is a definite minority. On my persimmons I find most of the male flowers on Chocolate but I believe my Great Wall had a few as well.

Scott


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Scott, I forgot to mention than my Chin may be less astringent than whatever is the commercial variety most widely grown in this country but it still must be quite soft to eat- even ones that are soft ripe on the tree.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

I've notice a pretty broad range of consistencies of the flesh of ripe kakis among the different varieties - some like fuyu are firm and almost crispy when ripe and considered "nonastringent" , while the typical astringent, soft when ripe persimmons may have gelatinous or saucey textures. Then there are some others which are distinct from either of these groups, with some having consistencies similar to papaya. I think these are the best and would guess to be most acceptable to the American palate.

I get some occasional seeds in my kaki fruit and these may or may not result from a self-fertile situation, but I have never tried to germinate them. I have noticed that American persimmon seeds from the fruit of trees growing without a known nearby source of pollen have much lower germination rates than seeds from flowers that were likely to have been cross pollinated. The crosses in the Claypool breeding effort were also, as far as I can recall, not of varieties back upon themselves. Maybe there was a problem with viability.

Kakis are not usually grown from seed, especially in zone 6, where the thought is that grafting onto the hardier American persimmon rootstock is necessary for the trees to survive through the winters, but I do know of a case of a seedling kaki surviving for 40+ years in zone 6. The fruit in this case was inferior to the variety I assume to be the seed parent. My own experience growing seedling kakis is that they lack the vigor seen in American persimmon and date plum seedlings and may take quite a long while before they fruit.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Scott how do you like the fruit of your Chocolate and Great Wall?
Dan


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Harvestman, what is your experience with cold hardiness of Shin persimmon? Is it really hardy to -10 F as mentioned in literature? What was minimal temperature in your locality it survived?
Well, someone told me, that non-astringent persimmons in colder climate keep some astringency in smaller amount. But have no personal experience with non-astringents.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Actually I've been too afraid to leave my persimmon out to test it, although that was my original intention. It's in a container that I keep putting away with the figs- maybe this spring I'll graft a piece onto a native persimmon I have growing.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Dan, I like Chocolate a lot, especially when it has sat awhile and gotten dark brown all through the flesh. Great Wall was fine but the fruits were small and I topworked it with something else a few years ago. I got Great Wall for hardiness but Chocolate has been every bit as hardy. In fact Hachiya is the only persimmon I have which has experienced limb dieback. Some people don't like Chocolate because it has male and female flowers so if you have other persimmon varieties it will make them seeded. In Japan they want all persimmons to be seeded since they feel all varieties taste better pollinated.

Scott


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

What I have read, the Kentucky nursery also offer other persimmon variety called Hokkaido- they say, that it produces male and female flowers on one plant. Maybe Shin is the same type. I am wondering if these two varieties can survive winters in hardy zone 6b on D. lotus rootstock , without artificial winter protection.
Scott - what was the mean fruit mass of Great Wall?


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

I meant fruit weight of Great Wall, sorry. Saijo is the next japanese persimmon with small fruits, but should be winter hardy in 6b zone. It will be first winter for my Saijo planted in ground, so I will see.

Harvestman, do you have any photo of Shin fruits?


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

I don't take photos but they look exactly like smaller Saijo's if that's the common commercial non-Fuyu variety. They taste much the same but don't need to be quite so gooey to beat the astringency. Very sweet and good but not very distinctive. All I need is texture and sugar to be satisfied with Kakis.

What is the earliest bearing non-astringent with very good quality fruit?


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

For pollination constant I would say probably the earliest maturing fruit is IZU. If you want to consider a pollination variant needing pollination to be non-astringent maybe Nishimura Wase.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

on ediblelandscaping webpage is written ripening time for oriental persimmons:
September: Izu, Miss Kim, Sheng, Wase Fuyu
October: Gwang Yang, Hana Fuyu, TamKam, Wase Fuyu, Ichi Ki Kei Jiro, Izu, Makawa Jiro, Sheng, Miss Kim, Smith's Best, Sung Hui
November: Great Wall, Hychia, Hira Tanenashi, Kungsun Bansi, Miss Kim, Saijo, San Pedro, Smiths Best, Sun Hui, TamKam, Gwang Yang, Hana Fuyu, Makawa Jiro, Ichi Ki Kei Jiro
December: Hana Gosho, Tecumseh

So Izu should be one of the earliest, but maybe there are also other early ripening varieties, but not often grown. Is Miss Kim astringent or non-astringent? I have read, that this variety should be pretty cold hardy.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Pollination can eliminate astringency in some varieties? Wow. My Shin is not cross pollinated could that be and issue?


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

One year I grafted a Shin Na Da persimmon onto a tiny one year bareroot rootstock and was surprised to see the potted plant bear a fruit that same year. Just for the novelty of it, I let the fruit mature and it was, as I recall, a nonastringent. Leaving the fruit on did draw all the resources of the plant, so it did not survive the winter. I didn't think that this variety was pollination variant but I could be mistaken about that.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

I've always read pva persimmons need pollination for best flavor. Hence chocolate needs coffee cake. I just ordered a rojo brilliant which I believe is a pva type, unlike fuyu or hichaya.

I've always found persimmon pollination to be very confusing. I bet Lucky or Scott knows.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Last year my asians were tree ripe in the end of Octobre, this fall most of them are not tree ripe yet even though the leaves are of the tree's. I do have some rossianka and saijo that ripened earlier at the end of octobre. As far as dying,none were killed during this last winter. All my tree's were grafted on wild(native) rootstock.Some nurseries graft asian on lotus that do well in the westcoast but not here in Ar.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

I am not certain if Shin is PV (Pollination variant) or not. Assuming it is the same as Shin Na Da the only info I found on it with a quick search was on the England's site, which does state it will be firm and non-astringent when ripe. It does not state if it is PV or not. PV types such as Chocolate and Coffeecake (aka Nishimura Wase) will normally develop brown flesh around the seeds that is non-astringent, but if not fully seeded I understand some of the flesh can remain astringent while firm. I have tried to stay away from cultivars that produce significant male flowering as I do not want all my trees to have seeded fruit, and as I understand the PV types if not pollinated are not all that great once it softens and loses astringency, while the seeded fruit is highly favored and I loved the ones I have tried I just prefer a seedless fruit, and with about 30 other trees I would prefer to keep without heavy seeding. If I can find another location to place a couple trees I might put them in. On the common commercial astringent cultivar that would be in US markets that would be Hachiya. Saijo is a smaller fruit, but it almost always get high praise.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

I got my tree from England- maybe he sold me a mislabeled tree or maybe the astringency is the result of growing further north.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

So it is the Shin Na Da. My tree had only a single small fruit to sample and that was several years ago, but I can say that the fruit was unlike the typical PCNA fruits like Fuyu and Jiro, and although I hadn't suspected it at the time, you may be on the right track in thinking that this could be a pollination variant variety. Your fruit having seeds makes me think that the flowers were likely pollinated, so I don't know whether adding a male will change your fruits' quality. Maybe the Englands would know or you may consider adding or grafting on a variety like Gailey, Hokkaido, Chocolate or others known to have male flowers to see for yourself.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

bhawkins, my impression of Chocolate is that it pollinates itself - the male flowers on it will pollinate the female flowers on it. My Chocolate is the only persimmon I have that I have found any male flowers on. I expect this is also how hman's Shin got pollinated - from some of its own male flowers.

Hman, I would check with the pictures of Shin on Clifford's website to see if it looks like your plant. You may be able to determine that the variety is incorrect just by the shape. I can't think of any other reason why it would be astringent for you but not for others. That said, persimmons have some mighty strange habits and I am still figuring new things out about their strange ways after ten years of growing them.

Scott


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Thanks Scott. Perhaps you or someone can help me with some questions I've been vexed about,

Coffeecake is recommended by nurseries to pollinate Chocolate; does coffeecake also have male flowers? I've seen lots of discussion of Chocolates male flowers, but no discussion of coffeecake, other than its a pvna. But if coffeecake can pollinate chocolate, doesnt it have to have male flowers?

For these PVNA cultivars,if they're not pollinated, are they astringent? or if not pollinated, do they just not taste as good?

Can Hachiya sometimes have male flowers? I've read articles that Hichaya's close to Fuyu's will sometimes cause seeds.

I've got about 15 kaki's planted, as they mature i'll have to watch all the flowers

Thanks,

Bob


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Is not Coffeecake the same as Cocholate? Perhaps synonym for one material. PVNA fruits if not pollinated, should be astringent. If pollinated, flesh around seeds should be nonastringent, but close to skin, there s trace of tanins. generally, pollinated PVNA fruit will never be like PCNA. maybe i am misinformed, I am open to correction. It s little bit complicated about persimmon pollination, because on one plant there can be seperate male, seperate female and mixed flowers.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

I am pretty sure Chocolate and Coffeecake are not the same. Coffeecake is a marketing name for the "Nishimura Wase" cultivar from what I understand. I have as well read that Chocolate as been at times used as a Generic label for several PV types which is quite frustrating as you can't be certain what you are getting. Cultivar chaos doesn't stop there either. Fuyu has sometimes be used generically for non-astringent cultivars, and on west coast what is generally referred to as Fuyu is Jiro. I believe I have 3 different Fuyu's from different sources and thats not even counting the bud sports like Matsumoto Wase Fuyu.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Hey Strudeldog, you seem to have lots of experience with kaki's. What are your favorite ones? Is there much of a taste difference between different pcna's? or pca's; or pva's?

Apologies to Harvestman for hijacking the thread


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

No apology necessary. It's not hijacking, just continuing a conversation that started with my question being answered. I'm still "listening" with interest.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Harvestman, the story of the Shin Na Da persimmon turns out to be that it is a cross between an open pollinated seedling of a Korean PVNA and probably the PCA Hokkaido. Its being two generations away from a persimmon showing pollination variance explains why you are not seeing this trait in your fruit. Likely, your tree does have male flowers, like the male parent, accounting for the seeds in your fruit.

From what I gather, the unique characteristic of Shin Na Da is its precocity. Even from seed, this tree began producing fruit in just a few years; from grafting, the same year. In light of this history, your idea of planting the seeds from your fruit may be worth pursuing. I would think that this one would be a good choice for selective breeding for cold hardiness given the short intervals between generations.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Thanks, but I am pretty much a rookie, there are others with more knowledge and established trees that contribute here, several on this thread alone . All the trees at my present location are no older than spring 2009 and most have not fruited yet. Kaki are probably my favorite trees that I am growing however and just hope weather and such don�t set me back. Maybe my palate is not that discerning but most of the PCNA taste pretty similar to me if they are at the same stage of ripeness. I think the stages of ripeness is a big factor and the PCNA color up well be they reach optimal flavor. I have been trying to keep the seeds in my fruit to a minimum so I have not focused much on the PV types, but I have had opportunity to taste several and enjoyed them. Of my PCA that have fruited Saijo is my favorite and Tamopan my least preferred, but of the 19 cultivars about 30 trees I have only 6 cultivars to have fruited and only limited numbers as most of my in ground tree are only 2 years. 12 of my cultivars are recent purchased potted trees I will be planting out in spring, I had grafted some of these same cultivars last spring with reasonable success, but my rootstock was very small bare root and they didn�t make very strong growth and decided to go ahead with a more established purchased tree. I am hoping within a few years to be able to evaluate better.
I am not sure how to post pictures in this forum, no gallery here? but If I did correctly the link below Is a sampling of fruits from Just Fruits & Exotics last month. The Fruit behind HAO River is a huge non-astringent with good taste, but it was miss-labeled and they don�t know what it is. I purchased one, but this is the 1st year it fruited for them and only a few fruits. I think it was slow to come into bearing and very few fruit so maybe the large tasty fruit don�t make up for other shortcomings. The coin in the picture is a quarter for size reference

Photobucket


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Thanks Strudeldog. Thats an impressive collection you're growing. I have about a dozen types, & like you have just started to get some fruit. Everytime I see an add about a kaki I seem to plant one. Yet based upon other comments here on the board, I'm not sure if there's going to be a lot of variation between types. I like giant fuyu & ichi kei ki jiro a little better than jiro, but its close.

Sometimes I think I should have just planted a jiro, giant jiro, eureka, & seijo, & stopped there. Perhaps a chocolate & coffeecake on the other side of the house. 4-6 max. Then again, maybe I'll find the perfect persimmon for Dallas.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Wow an inpresive collection Strudeldog. Mine, American, of unknown type are as small as the quarter and 90% seed.
Dan


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Harvestman, you mentioned trying to grow the Shin seeds. I have never tried this, but I understand that any trees grown from seed of fruit pollinated by a male flower from a tree producing both male and female flowers will always be female. So all the trees from your seed should produce fruit.
Hope you get some good ones.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

From the conversation with Cliff:
"A cultivar that I brought from Korea and In English Shin Na Da means WOW it is a pollen Variant Non-astringent but it is a week pollen variant the flesh is dark when ripe and the fruit is seeded."


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Well, mine is extraordinarily precocious but the flesh is not dark- it is identical to the common commercial persimmon.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

I gotta get me one of those......wife was thinking roses in that spot, roses are overrated


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

The waxy green leaves and orange fruit are highly ornamental as well and here in southeastern NY they are much less susceptible to pests than tea roses. Strictly no-spray so far.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

So, Shin is PVNA type with male flowers(or mixes perhaps)and fruits are seeded. But what about cold hardiness of this variety? Is it really exceptionally hardy to -10 F as mentioned on one webpage? Any experience?

Harbin - did Cliff say anything about hardiness?


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

No, he didn't. On his website he says "cold hardy in zone 6"
My plant is still too small to be tested outside.
Others may have tried it in the more northern parts.
But to me -10 F is deadly for most of the cultivated kakis.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

A very informative page about Kaki/Asian persimmon is the following:

http://www.dofi.unifi.it/frutmin/database/LISTA2.htm

A big drawback is that it is in Italian and unfortunately contains no information about Shin Na Da.

By the way, I'm always interested in trading scions of Asian persimmons and it's the right time for it now.
If somebody is interested too, please drop me a line.

Here is a link that might be useful: A lot of Asian persimmons


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

I know that page, but no exact information about hardiness and no Shin Na Da in the list.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

England wrote me that at -10 Shin starts to lose shoot tips and he doubts it could take much colder.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

harvestman, do you mean -10 Fahrenheit? what about minimal winter temperatures in Eastern Kentucky? i have no idea about winter there.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

yes, F.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

You are right about the hardiness indicente, for me it's a riddle how they are able to judge the hardiness in Italy.
But a hardiness of -10 F for an Asian persimmon sounds unrealistic for me, maybe for a very short period of time.
My Muscat (French astringent variety) survived the winter 2009/2010 with four weeks of permanent frost and peaks of "only" -1 F with average dieback.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

I am in zone 6B and observed persimmons in my garden, as well as in my sister's garden for 10+ years. Between two of us, we probably grow most of the availble through mail order persimmon varieties. All, including the supposed to be more tender varieties like Chocolate, Hachia, etc, survive winters here without any or with minimal dieback, even when young. We do experience some winters (but not for long) temps down to -10.
Olga


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Say Olga, is there much of a taste difference between the non-strigent varieties? Fuyu, ichi, ichi kei ki, hana fuyu, giant fuyu, izu, matsumoto, etc?

Thanks,


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

How well do the Yates and Prok handle cold weather? I have both on order from Hidden Springs and I'm looking at some asians. I wonder if fruitnut has tried growing persimmons in his pots and greenhouse.
Dan


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

olga 6b- do you grow Shin Na Da and Hokkaido from Kentucky nursery? What is your opinion about their hardiness? I have doubts that Hachiya will survive temperatures lower than -1 F with no dieback. Friend of mine tested it, at -1 F started to loose one-year old shoots and had dieback. It is on lotus rootstock and now he grows Hachiya in flower pot.

Germanfigfriend - I agree with you, most of japanese persimmons hardly can survive temperatures down to -1 F for long time. But maybe there some more hardy varieties, suitable to colder climate and we should talk about them. Maybe some chinese or korean varieties are better adapted to colder winters. I have doubts about hardiness of italian or french...can resist temps to -1 F for short period (if ever), but not for long time.

iammarcus - Yates and Prok are at least hardy enough to -10 F or lower.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Iammarcus,

According to the International symposium on cultivar improvement of horticultural crops: The result of identify 92 varieties from the national germplasm resources nursery of persimmon was the "Denglonshi", "Hroguantoushi", and "Hyakume" were the most hardy. In addition, Kyung san ban si, Greatwall, Sheng, Saijo, Ichi Kei Jiro, and Korea are very cold hardy down to -10F.

Tony


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Thanks Tony and indicente, I think I may be able to grow outside. I'll check to see our frequency of -10F.
Dan


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

I seem to remember reading that in a more artic environment, where winter temps don't fluctuate much, that there are varieties of Kaki that have survived lower than -20 F. or more. Not short periods but extended ones.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

harvestman - I think, it is hardly possible with kaki.

iammarcus - definitely, grow them outside with winter protection during first 1-2 years. it should be enough. virginiana as rootstock is probably better choice for your climate, but depends on winter temps.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Great Wall is a variety that is said to take stable winter temps well down into negative double digits- or alternatively, my memory is playing tricks on me. Have you seen any literature that contradicts this? I realize this doesn't mean they can survive similar cold in climates with widely fluctuating winter temps.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Havestment,

There is a gentleman who lives in Kansas, possible Zone 5-6 has successfully grown some of the hardiest Kakis. You can read his story by Google it, Live for Jesus daily: Greatwall Asian persimmon. He offers good techniques and protections for them. I hope his experienced growing Kakis in the Midwest will help others to try also.

Tony


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Tony, I read the article and the temps they suggest that certain Kakis can survive nearly matches my memory which is always a good thing at my age.

The methods they use are fairly standard issue- wind protection and blocking the low winter sun to keep the trees dormant. Same recs are made for apricots in cold climates.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

there was one study of some varieties hardiness in lab conditions, citation of scientific paper is here :
I. Ondrasek, B. Krska, A. Bilavcik- EVALUATION OF FROST HARDINESS IN SOME CULTIVARS OF DIOSPYROS SPP. BY ARTIFICIAL FREEZING.ISHS Acta Horticulturae 685: III International Symposium on Persimmon. I know that Great Wall was not included in the test and it was done by artificial conditions. The cultivars of Diospyros kaki L. had an LT50 from -13�C to -16�C for one-year shoots there. LT means -lethal temperature for 50 % of shoots. I don�t want to quarrel with you about hardiness, because there are hundreds of kaki varieties and seedlings. And it is good we talk about more cold hardy varieties. Shin Na Da should be one of them.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

In, from where I'm sitting this is a discussion, not a quarrel. Unless I know how this study was done I can't evaluate it. I am a member of that association so I can get the study, most likely, and when I have time I will go over it.

Evaluating cold hardiness of trees is very complicated because of the different stages of hardening off that occur. However, Kentucky growers who have been growing Kakis for decades tell of the hardy varieties withstanding -10 F before one year shoots begin to die. This is in our climate of widely fluctuating winter temps and those lows must sometimes occur when trees are not at their hardiest so it is likely that in the northern interior of China where temps are more stable they can withstand even colder temps.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Even at latitude 34, the deep south, the fluctuating temperatures can apparently wreak havoc at times.

http://www.clemson.edu/hort/Kaki.php


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

harvestman - was the shape of your Shin fruits the same as presented on Kentucky nursery pictures? Still wondering,if your Shin could be something other than Cliff offers on his webpage.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

You mean you think Cliff might have accidentally given me something else? No, I don't think so, now cliff thinks Shin is prone to being astringent.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Yes,exactly.Misunderstandings or bad labellings of plants happen. And than you can buy other plant than you wanted.So Shin is not PCNA type,probably pollination variant astringent type,right?


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Well,as I recall, the Shin fruit I had looked like smallish Fuyu- it was a flat type. Is this what it's supposed to look like?

You can ask England how he classifies it- I've forgotten the terminology as I only manage one of them on my own property and I don't have a lot of empty storage space beneath my scalp.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Well, when you look at England webpage, there are some photos of Shin na da. Here is the link http://www.nuttrees.net/shinnada.htm . I dont know, how your fruits looked like - you can compare your fruits with Cliff�s photos. But the shape is not similiar to Fuyu fruits, I think.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Looks like it. It is more similar to Fuyu than the astringent commercial varieties.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Harvestman,

I have eating a lots of store bought Fuyu, they are more roundish and some are flat. The Shin na da on Cliff page at nuttrees.com is more acorn shape. pointed end.

FC


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Fruitcraz is right, also Cliff writes about Shin na da fruits on his webpage, that are conical shaped yellowish orange. Fuyu or Jiro have flat fruits, no pointed end. So maybe you did not buy Shin na da.

By the way, at first look I do not see many differences in shape of Hokkaido and Shin na da fruits, maybe Hokkaido fruits are more ribbed.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

Cliff thought his Shin had completely snapped below the graft union because the fruits he was getting from his snow damaged mother tree were astringent. After consulting with me, he decided to change his idea about Shin being non-astringent. Really, if he was getting fruit from the rootstock what are the odds they'd even be edible?

What I had was extremely precocious which should be a pretty good indicator of variety.

Why are you debating about the shape? To me they look more like Fuyu than the astringent varieties in stores. Maybe I just have no eye for shapes. Let's move on.


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RE: Shin persimmon astringent

ScottfSmith reply explains a lot:

"I don't know about the Shin variety so I can't add anything there. Reading the catalog description it sound like they are stating it can be firm-ripe and not astringent if left on the tree a long time, not that it is a completely non-astringent variety.

Scott "

So Shin is not exactly non-astringent variety, but can be sweet on tree after long time ripening and loosing astrigency. Probably classified as PVNA or PVA group. Not Fuyu or Jiro type.


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