Thanks. Although most are not for me interesting reading all the same. I will check it out better in the future. I see Sweetcrisp has a higher chill requirement than most, which is good for me, it might be OK here. Mine looks great, well kinda spindly, but new growth is better. Also has a nice red autumn blush right now. it grew well this summer.
Today it went into the garage. Winter is here! It looks big enough to fruit next year Yeah!

Drew:

Winter is here as well. 29F and falling. It looks like the first freeze of the yr will bottom out at 15F. Is this really zone 8a? The polar vortex stinks.

Thanks fruitnut.Where were the Sweetcrisp purchased? Brady

You win for worst weather. At least it is not spring! Talk about USDA zone failure. I think TX needs it's very own zone rating! Zone X :)

Here at least weather is predictable and consistant. But you know we have our moments, see post under the zone thread.Low tonight is 28F So you're colder than my zone 6.
We are not going to reach 15F anytime soon (good!!).
I do know my NHB plants can take -14F and still fruit, which is a darn good thing around here!

Brady:

Sweetcrisp were from a friend in FL. I ordered Scintilla from Holly Hill Farms. Not sure if that's a reliable source or not but $22 for two plants. Not much to lose.

Thanks for the link Steve! Good read and a couple of the Bird Series blues peak my interest.

I'm thinking there will be some good ones in the new releases, things like Kestrel and Raven. But any could turn out well. I saw another report that said Flicker was extremely tasty. I hope to try them all.

I admit to not reading much ag info outside my home state, as all gardening is local, and the University of Florida docs always seem the most questionable and least applicable to whatever I'm doing, mostly because they are somewhat self-serving and promotional.

That said, I can't tell how or where the numbers in the charts are being derived/determined on this page. Most importantly the flavor numbers, with flavor being extremely subjective. And I'm left to guess what survival ratings actually mean.

This post was edited by mrclint on Sat, Nov 15, 14 at 0:31

University of Florida's work is impressive. MSU here has developed some good NHB, but seem to be concentrating on cherries. I hope they get back to blueberries. Florida reports in 2011 of producing 24 million pounds. We produce over 100 million pounds, yet they have the most impressive breeding program. Hope MSU is taking notes!
MSU's work with blueberries in focused on helping farmers, not producing new cultivars. Which is fine.
But developing cultivars that work better is a worthwhile goal too. We get our winter berries from Chile, it would be nice to instead get them from Florida. Chile had some losses this year from frost. Get cracking Florida!

I have 2 SHB and want to see how well they adapt to this colder region. I'm hopeful because blueberries go dormant by day length and start to grow once chill requirments are met AND temps are above 45F. So they should be able to grow just fine here, we will see!

Oh, and I liked the document myself, very useful for me.
I think survival is based on how long fruitnut has them before he pulls them. ;-)

This post was edited by Drew51 on Sat, Nov 15, 14 at 1:59

Drew that's close. Actually it's how long before I kill them!

No one is going to speak to the numbers directly, so I'll take a stab. I'm left to guess that the numbers are only useful relative to the reader's own empirical evidence. So if you grow 'Emerald', 'Snowchaser' will taste two points better, yield 3 pts fewer berries, and have 4 pts less of a chance of surviving, etc. It's just that the points are an undetermined unit of measure.

Mrclint:

You've often posted about fruits you like for instance Dapple Dandy. What evidence have you ever provided that even equals these numbers? Nothing I've seen. I've tried to provide brix numbers. But for yield, set, survival, or anything else most home growers can't provide anything equaling what's given in table linked above.

An experienced commercial blueberry grower in FL would understand a yield of 5, 7, or 9. That's primarily what the info is aimed at.

What do you want a written guarantee as to survival, yield, flavor, etc? Take a chance like the rest of us and try something new. My two best blueberry varieties are new releases from that table. So why would I not try the rest? Anything new seems to irritate you, what's going on there?

I don't count on the table for which are good tasting. Many have been reported on here numerous times. I'll wait on any new cultivars. I already know which cultivars are worth trying. Info like flowering and season are helpful. I have a better chance with the mid and late season. Even though snowchaser is a good plant, it's too early to chance here. One warm spell, and it flowers, and freezes. Whereas Sweetcrisp might grow but not flower. I only want to add maybe one or two more SHB's anyway. NHB is more for my area. I have five of them. tasted three, I like them! I can't wait to add more. But I have a 3 year buffer because of moving and such. So researching cultivars keeps me at least happy. When the time comes I will be ready as to what to get. I have wish lists for peaches, blueberries, all fruits I want. Kept on my computer. What was said, how adapted they are to my area, etc. Keep the reports coming!!

The taste test numbers at DWN are well documented on their website. You know where to find them and how they are derived. 'Dapple Dandy' is a well documented taste test winner, and I simply agree with those findings. What does that have to do with the UF blueberry chart, and how does that somehow validate it?

You've still not explained the numbers in the chart. It's clearly on a scale of 1-10, with nothing rating poorly, everything new rating highly, and no points of reference. This is a sales pamphlet masquerading as a University text that we're talking about. Please try and view it as subjectively as you would any other type of report from any other source. I'm skeptical enough to assume that when 'Emerald' was first released it had a 9 rating for flavor as well.

The bottom line is that it's a sales brochure, which would be fine if the numbers were explained:

"The blueberry breeding program at the University of Florida is financed to a large extent by revenues from royalty payments on patented cultivars."

What a backyard grower, or any other vendor does or says has no bearing on this chart.

Sales brochure, for who? They've severely restricted hobbyist access to all new varieties. So they aren't pitching anything at us.

The information is for commercial growers in the southeastern US. The UF isn't going to try to sell them BS.

The point of reference is varieties like Emerald, Star, and Jewel with which commercial growers are very familiar. None of which were ever highly rated for flavor except maybe by you. Three or four of the latest releases are rated the same as those old standards.

If you weren't negative about my postings I'd think you were sick. So I'm glad you are well.

This post was edited by fruitnut on Sat, Nov 15, 14 at 17:52

The bottom line is that it's a sales brochure, which would be fine if the numbers were explained:

I thought you said the DWN taste test numbers were well explained???
I agree though the DWN taste tests are the best sales brochure I have ever seen! They know how to promote a product!

Anything new seems to irritate you, what's going on there?

It's not a DWN product. Ever notice that about Mr Clint?
Down to even promoting the blueberry soil mix on their website. Biggest DWN fanboy I have ever seen. Mrclint ONLY links to DWN material, ever. That's his problem with this. Well at least it comes off like that often.

Speaking of DWN where is Southmoon? On the DWN site it is described as a Florida native. I guess developed by somebody else other than UF? Or isn't considered commercial in anyway?

And Mrclint, I know what you meant, my answer was tongue in cheek to get across my point. So DWN does a better job at promotion, I agree with you there! We all know it's all about sales. The taste tests that is. One of the best promotions ever devised.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Sat, Nov 15, 14 at 18:47

They are promoting their cultivars. That's OK. They just need to present it as such.

The document also used a made up version of the 9-point hedonic scale.

Here's an example of an article, San Joaquin Valley blueberries evaluated for quality attributes, from 2008 that does a good job of using the 9-point hedonic scale and other data points to draw its conclusions.

The taste tests:
"One hundred consumers who eat fresh blueberries, representing a diverse combination of ages, ethnic groups and genders, were surveyed in a major supermarket in Fresno County"

I gravitate heavily toward DWN, Four Winds Growers, L.E Cooke and others that cater to the home grower. That said, I don't think this has anything to do with finding flaws with this particular UF text.

The San Joaquin valley blueberry writeup is indeed nice. I attended their blueberry field days in 2002 and 2003 prior to those testings. We tasted about 20 varieties each yr. I've grown all the varieties in the writeup except O'Neal. I tasted the variety consumers liked best, Reveille, both in CA and here. It was sweetest and most firm. News flash: people like those traits! If you like Reveille you'll be madly in love with Sweetcrisp. The difference is night and day.

I've purchased the first 10 varieties in the UF table. Only fruited 4 of those enough to really form an opinion. Some died and others were from questionable sources so not 100% sure on my opinion. Eventually I'll get the last 6 plus Indigocrisp.

In my opinion the UF has made great strides in berry quality, both firmness and flavor but especially in firmness. That trait should be widespread in 20 yrs.

Maybe this will be the season where I see some of the newer UF varieties available for sale locally. 'Snowchaser' might be worth a shot because it would extend the season by being so early. In reality my six BB bushes are enough for me for fresh eating.

The biggest surprise from the UC trial is that some people actually disliked some of the berries. Who are these people? :)

I should have added that UF has also bred sweeter blueberries. Whereas the CA berries were 10-15% brix to be generous on top end, I'd say Sweetcrisp is more in the 15-20 brix range. A variety that I'm only 90% certain is Springhigh has the best flavor of anything I've ever tasted. Crispness, flavor, and sweetness all improved by recent UF releases. I'd bet other breeders are incorporating these traits into NHB and rabbiteye as we speak.

The main takeaway I get from the UF report is that if you have firsthand experience with one or more of the listed cultivars, you can compare them to the breeder's "expectations" of the other cultivars. Since 'Snowchaser' is earlier and expected to taste better than 'Emerald' (which I really like), and is as tasty as any of their other offerings, I may need to make room for it. Currently I harvest BB from mid-March to end of June. Lengthening that window would be worth adding another BB plant.

There are a couple of takeaways from the UC report that I find telling. Fruit quality is a matrix consisting of a number of different fully measurable attributes. There are nuances that make up a good piece of fruit. The most telling for BB appears to be acidity, which requires an auto-titrator to measure, which also makes such a measurement out of bounds for most of us. Mostly this report leaves me wanting more reports of this kind.

Mrclint:

I'll have first fruit on Snowchaser this spring. Blueboy in Houston liked it one yr and not so much the next. Springhigh doesn't hold up well in FL during hot weather, goes soft.

My takeaway as with everything else is one won't know until we try. Sweetcrisp is certainly as advertized to my taste, a 9-10 for crisp and sweet but I'd give it one notch down from my favorite on flavor. That could just be my taste buds but a buddy agrees. Most of the rest are about the same depending on weather when they ripen.

The stem blight and survival info can be helpful and has panned out for me in the past.

One of the things that the UC report alluded to was that there was some fruit quality variance in certain years. I've seen this myself with 'O Neal' having good and dud years. My best guess is that the chill requirements and maturity of the plants factor in heavily in some years. I've also noticed that if a plant bears a little lighter one year, the berries are usually outstanding.

The taste tests DWN does are marketing. It gets them buzz hopefully from influential members of the orcharding (commercial and retail) communities. They work hard at it and it is a fun experience. Some data may come out of the trial that proves useful or may point to the wide discrepancy in taste present in a group of people.

You have a limited slice of time (early, mid or late season) in which some fruits that they offer, are locally grown or are experimental (Zaiger Genetics) are made available [you can see which ones in each report]. Few, if any, of the experimentals will actually ever make it to sales and that is a pity.

They are "commercial ripe" meaning when picked from a tree for commercial shipment not ideally optimal ripe like when you pick them at home.

So, evaluation requires imagining sweeter fruit (concentrating on tasting the flavor but without a lot of sweetness). Fruitnut wouldn't (or probably didn't) like it.

How to evaluate any variety from the subjective data is problematic, but then subjective data from a modest sampling always is. Even the taster's ratings may change with experience as the trial proceeds, as well as how saturated taste buds are getting and how full someone's stomach is getting during the testing.

Say wasn't this thread about SHB blueberries? lol

I was looking at what Mark Ehlenfeldt has been doing with blueberries as a genetic breeder. Seems he caters to the home grower crowd with his releases. Razz, Pink Lemonade, Legacy, Sweetheart, etc,
Well while looking at Cara's Choice his favorite cultivar, I see the breeders use quite different charts to compare cultivars. For example firmness, measured in (g.mm)
which is grams of force needed to produce 1mm of deflection, averaged across 30 intact fruit, brix, fruit color, weight, acidity. and yield.
Cara's Choice was compared to Duke and Bluecrop.
It had the lowest weight, the highest brix, the best firmness, was in-between in acidity, and the lowest yield (yet still released, as the target market is the home grower),
Pretty cool us home growers have an advocate that works for the USDA. Currently he is working on disease resistance. I can't wait to see what he throws at us next!

Here is a link that might be useful: Cara's Choice

Drew:

I'd suspect that Cara's Choice is on a par with Reveille which likely leaves it well behind Sweetcrisp. 13.5 brix is same as Reveille in CA.

Do you have Cara's Choice? Do you know where I could buy it? I get enough chilling in my greenhouse for NHB.

I had Hanna's Choice or Cara's Choice at one time.

Yes I have it and got it at Burpees, but the Cooks Garden used to have it too. Nice looking plant, the foliage is somewhat blue. Speaking of blue, Monrova released Bountiful Blue, looks interesting too. Low chill type. It interests me as I want plants that are also ornamental, yet edible. I do suck at making it look nice though, not sure why i care? I suck at making my garden look pretty!

OH, when i said highest brix, I just meant against Bluecrop and Duke. As that is all that is compared in the chart.

Edit:
I see the Cook's Garden no longer has it, and Burpee is out of stock for now. You may not like this one as it is one of those sugar/acid fruits. I'm thinking in pancakes!
It is medium berry size too.
You know where you need to go now is breeding your own!
If you could cross sweetcrisp with a more prolific cultivar, we may have something!
Pete Tallman the breeder of the Niwot raspberry is retiring, He sent me a cross he did, as the flavor of Niwot is lacking, this cross is better (HautxNiwot).
He has inspired me to try my own raspberry crosses for fun and profit.

I should try crossing sweetcrisp with Chandler. Chandler is a super vigorous plant that grows huge berries. Try to get that firmness in a NHB myself! I just may do that! Well I need a lot of practice before I try these grandiose ideas!

This post was edited by Drew51 on Wed, Nov 19, 14 at 10:13