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tonytranomaha

Nikita'S Gift seeded with out a male tree

Tony
10 years ago

I was amazed that my NG has seeds and sought answers from Jerry Lehman.

Jerry,

I am a little puzzled why one of my Nikita's Gift fruit had 2 seeds and I have no Asian male persimmon. The only other Asian persimmon that had fruit for the last 2 years was Ichi Kei Ki Jiro. I tested the seeds by placing them in a glass of water and they sank to the bottom and that showed me that they are viable. I placed the seeds in the frig and will plant them in pots next spring. Could NG has male flower? Thx

Hi Tony,

Nikita's Gift (Nikitskaya Bordovaya) is a intraspecies hybrid of American X kaki. Most such hybrids produce few viable seeds. And when they do it can be by either of the hybrid's parent' species.

The seeds from your tree are most likely N. G. x virginiana. There is a very very remote possibility it is apomictic, but all my trees from seeds from Rosseyanka and Nikita's Gift are very different, therefore almost assuredly back crosses to virginiana.

I have never seen any male flowers on either of my Rosseyanka or Nikitskaya Bordovaya trees.

Jerry

Comments (22)

  • lucky_p
    10 years ago

    Tony,
    Have had Rosseyanka growing here for 10 years or more. Have tried several times to get a graft of NG going, but thus far, no success. Find a few seeds(never more than one per fruit - and in well less than 5% of fruits) in Rosseyanka, presumably from male D.virginiana in the area - though I have no males planted in the orchard; additionally, I *should* have 60-chromosome natives, not 90-chromosome, but these seed are viable - I grew out a dozen seedlings this year.

  • Tony
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Lucky,

    Thx for the Infos on Rossyanka persimmon. Mine probably will fruit next leaf. It has been in the ground for 3 yrs. if you want to try NG again just let me know in the spring.

    Tony

  • indicente
    10 years ago

    Tony, maybe your Ichi-ki-kei Jiro produces male fruits,what do you think?Last year I had fruits on NG without seeds,but this year had flowering Jiro nearby and have seeds in fruits of both varieties.That is my opinion.But when you grow NG alone,should have no seeds.

  • Tony
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Indicente,

    So far my Ichi fruits are seedless. I will plant the NG seeds and see what happen in about 4-5 ys.

    Tony

  • palmfan
    10 years ago

    My NG had about two seeds/fruit. There are wild native persimmons in the town so my NG has likely been pollinated by D virginiana.
    Does NG usually have a problem with premature fruit drop?
    Also, is it true that NG is 75% kaki, and 25% virginiana?

  • Tony
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Palmfan,

    NG dropped fruits the first 2 years. NG is a seedling of Rossyanka X Kaki.

    Tony

  • indicente
    8 years ago

    I found several seeds in my Rosseyanka fruits. I was suerprised by their size, bigger and thicker compared to fruit size. Seeds are light yellow, or sandy, compared to dark brown seed on typical japanese persimmons. Nobody knows, how Jerry ´s seedlings from NG and Rosseyanka are doing?


    Maybe I try to grow some seedlings from Rosseyanka, if the fruits will be viable and germinate.

  • Tony
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Incidents.


    David La Vergne who lived in Louisiana crossed many hybrids of F2 male Rossyanka to Kaki and he gave Cliff England at England Orchard to grow them out. There were several excellent hybrids will heading to Nursery.


    Kasandra hybrid. F2 male Rossyanka X Great wall. Cold hardy -16F with no damage. astringent.


    Saijo X F2 Rossyanka male.

    Keener X Rossyanka male

    Future are looking good for Northerners to enjoy these cold hardy Hybrids with a Kaki taste.


    Tony

  • indicente
    8 years ago

    Tony,


    those hybrids look very interesting, probably will be more hardy than regular japanese persimmon varieties and are more suitable for northern areas. But I never heard about Rosseyanka male, some F2 seedling raised from Rosseyanka? So seedlings could be male and female plants? I stored some Rosseyanka seeds and will see, germination rate and will grow them in free soil later. Somewhere I have read, that seedlings from hybrids virginiana x kaki grow very slow and bad, will see....

  • Tony
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Yup, Cliff told me that there will be more male than female. The male will be the most vigorous grower and the female will be slow grower and that is how he separate the young seedlings. It is true that out of hundred of Hybrid seedlings only a few good ones will be selected. Cliff had about 500 Hybrid seedlings on trial right now in Kentucky. I hope he can come up with a super hardy Non-astringent.

    Tony

  • indicente
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Tony, do you know how is it with Nikita s Gift seedlings? Also male and female plants? Because I know about new ukraine selections of NG. Bigger fruits, but later ripening compared to NG and less cold hardy. I have small NG seedling, veery slow growing after several years. I am not sure, if some non astringent type can rise from NG or Rosseyanka..

  • Tony
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I am not for sure but if you grow out a bunch of NG seeds and there will be a possibility of some male and some female just like one of the parent in the American persimmon family. Cliff England at England Orchard is selling a Steiermark astringent Asian persimmon from the Northern part of Austria that can handle the -16F last year in KY with barely any damage. I will see if I can this one from him.

    Tony

    Steiermark very cold hardy -16F Astringent Asian persimmon

  • indicente
    8 years ago

    My Steiermark fruits are almost green, now starting to change colour to light orange. Steiermark kaki is later ripening compared to Rosseyanka and NG. Not sure about hardiness down to - 16 F. Steiermark and Korea kaki are similiar to Costata, maybe some clones/seedlings of Costata.

  • Tony
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Incidents,

    Yes, last year the temp got down to -16 F in Mckee, Kentucky and Cliff Steiermark had very noticeable damage. What varieties do you have growing over there?

    Tony

  • indicente
    8 years ago

    Tony,

    maybe on D. virginiana can Steiermark survive lower temperatures, mine is grafted on D. lotus rootstock.

    people often grow here Tipo (variety from Italy), Rojo Brillante (Spain), but we have some local selections, like Dunaj persimmon (Danube) or Kavkaz. Because Ukraine is not so far, Rosseyanka, Nikita Gift are available very often in nurseries. Now the third generation selections of NG offsprings with bigger fruits (200-250 g) are becoming more popular - varieties Gora Goverla, Gora Rodgers, Roman Kos with hardiness down to -5 F...It s good to continue with NG seedlings selection.

    I like NG - very sweet fruits and attractive colour of riped fruits....


  • Tony
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Incidente,

    Cliff Mentioned a very cold hardy Non-astringent from northern China called Chinebuli. He said it survived that -16F with minimal cold damage. I would love to get my hand on that one.

    Tony

  • indicente
    8 years ago

    Tony,


    unfortunately, I don´t know anybody to be growing Chinebuli in my area. Honestly, I was disappointed with taste on non astringent fruits of Jiro variety - not so sweet like astringent Hachiya, Costata, NG or others....But it was only one variety from PCNA group i tasted, picked up fruits directly from tree. I think that in my area, probably vegetation period is too short for nonastringent varieties to concentrate enough sugar in fruits.

  • indicente
    8 years ago

    Riped Steiermark fruits are slightly ribbed, bit late ripening compared to Nikita s Gift or Rosseyanka, but taste is OK. Steiermark has typical purple leaves in the autumn, very decorative. It seems to be developed from Costata variety, probably, similiar in shape and ripening period with this variety.


    .

  • Tony
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I am trying to graft some Rojo Brillante this coming Spring. I bought a couple dozen fruits treated to remove astringent from Spain that our local Asian market carried. They were so good while crunchy and so juicy when fully ripened. Top of the line astringent Kaki.

    Tony

  • murkwell
    8 years ago

    The name is strange, seems like it should be called Naranja Brillante. I got some from a local produce store, the only persimmons I can find at the end of January around here. The first was almost too sweet, but didn't seem especially flavorful. I'll try the others after they soften some.

  • indicente
    8 years ago

    Rojo Brillante is variety with perfect fruit quality, the astrigency is artifically removed by gas during storage. This variety is hardy to 0 F (-18 Celsius degrees), so winter protection will be necessary in your area.

  • Tony
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    PersimmonBob in AK. His RB can handle the to -4F for a night or Two. So they are some what cold hardy.

    Tony

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