I like the old standby Bordeaux mixture. It is less widely sold than it once was but you can buy it ready made from Rosemania or Stark Brothers. You can also mix it yourself. I have heard that it is more effective when made fresh, though less convenient. Lots of recipes are for big quantities but I like this one for a home garden.

But very sure to screen the mixture carefully. If not, you can easily clog your sprayer. I like cheesecloth for this task.

Here is a link that might be useful: MSU instructions for making Bordeaux mixture

Marcelo:

Cupro 2005 appears to be exactly the same thing as Kocide, with copper hydroxide as the active ingredient. These products have several strength levels, so it's just a matter of choosing the one you want or the one you can find.

I don't know of any other copper product that is the equal of these two. Liquid formulations are much weaker in fixed copper equivalent. Bordeaux mixture uses copper sulfate, and is old technology. Fine if you like to use it, but not in the same class as the newer dormant copper sprays, which also are a lot easier to use.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

jellyman, how many spraying do you recommed for the dormant season. I'm in south texas on the boarder to mexico, so the trees are not yet dormant. Will be spraying as soon possible.

I particularly recommend Kocide 3000, the newest product in the Kocide lineup. I have to use about half the amount as with Kocide 2000, due to higher reactivity of the copper. Buildup of copper in the soil over the long term is a serious issue and so it is good to minimize copper quantities.

Scott

Marcelo:

I don't know what types of fruit trees you are growing, nor anything about their disease history, so I have no real basis for making any recommendations. I use copper dormant sprays on stone fruits like peaches and apricots to control bacterial spot and canker, though it is also effective against peach leaf curl, which I don't have. Copper should also be effective against peach scab. On apples, I spray only once just before bud break to control apple scab, and have pretty well eliminated this problem.

If you have had serious fungal or bacterial problems on your stone fruit trees the past season, I would spray twice; once just after leaf abscission, and again just before bud break in spring. Do your pruning before the first spray. That way you can minimize both the effort and spray amounts.

I agree with Scott that heavy copper buildup in the soil is to be avoided if possible, so would keep the number of srays to the minimum required to deal with demonstrated problems. If you don't have any particular fungal or bacterial problems, I wouldn't spray at all. In my case, if I don't dormant spray with copper, bacterial infections are almost sure to follow on peaches, apricots and plums.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

While various forms of copper have merits, I like Bordeaux best. It needs careful handling and cannot be used in hot weather, but it is persistent and effective at lower concentrations. Here is a quote from the University of California IPM website.

"Bordeaux mixture is an outstanding fungicide and bactericide that has been used for decades to control some diseases of tree fruits and nuts, vine fruits, and ornamentals. The ability of Bordeaux mixture to weather the fall, winter, and spring rains and to adhere to plants makes it an excellent choice for a winter fungicide. If Bordeaux mixture is applied in spring after the tree breaks dormancy, use weaker, more dilute formulations of the mixture to reduce the risk of plant injury. The application of Bordeaux during hot weather may cause yellowing and leaf drop. Leaf burn may occur if rain occurs soon after a Bordeaux application. To reduce the chance of leaf burn, add 1 quart of spray oil for every 100 gallons of spray mixture.

Fixed copper fungicide (tribasic copper sulfate, copper oxychloride sulfate, cupric hydroxide) sprays also control some of the same disease-causing organisms as Bordeaux mixture. While fixed copper sprays are much easier to prepare, they are far less persistent and will not withstand winter rains as well as Bordeaux mix. They are most effective and are a better choice to use in spring after the trees have broken dormancy and tender leaves are exposed. To be effective for certain pathogens such as the leaf curl fungus, the fixed copper compound must contain at least 50% copper. With all Bordeaux and fixed copper sprays, thorough coverage is essential to give plants the desired protection from disease-causing pathogens. Advantages and disadvantages of both sprays are outlined in Table 1.....
Bordeaux is also commercially available in premixed packages; however, these products are not nearly as effective as freshly made Bordeaux."

[To see Table 1 and read the whole entry, follow the link below.]

Rosefolly

Here is a link that might be useful: UC IPM Bordeaux mixture and fixed copper fungicide/bactericide

Rosefolly, thats an interesting quote. I would say it is accurate if the fixed copper is sprayed without dormant oil or a sticker, but when I have used one or both of these I find the trunks are still blue/green many months later and that has to be the copper is still there. I never spray copper without a sticker of some sort. In looking at the quantities of copper, the Kocide 3000 and bordeaux are similar; the amount of Kocide 3000 and Copper sulphate used in a gallon of water are roughly equal and they contain around the same amount of copper atoms (30% vs 25%). For the growing season copper hydroxide is definitely preferred and that is why I originally started using it, but for the dormant season I would say its a toss-up.

Scott

It may also be a function of climate. Bordeaux started as a grape fungicide in European vineyards. (Actually it started as an icky coating to keep sneaky people from stealing grapes. The fungicidal properties were serendipity.) Most vineyards are in Mediterranean climates -- warm dry summers and cool rainy winters. That is what much of California has, including my part, though we've been a bit short on the rainy part recently. It may simply be that Bordeaux is ideally suited to my climate, since our "dormant" season can be very rainy. The spreader-sticker issue may make a difference, too, as you pointed out.

Also, according to the UC reference, you need 50% copper to treat leaf curl disease effectively. If that is accurate, then Bordeaux is effective at a lower concentration of copper.

Interestingly enough, adding the lime to copper serves the purpose of reducing toxicity. They tried it with sulfur, too, which is where we get lime sulfur. Unfortunately there it has the opposite effect.

This discussion prompted me to order a two pound bag of hydrated lime today for my winter spraying. None of the local garden centers carry it in my area. I can only get it locally from a building supply place in 50 pound bags. Given that you have to buy it fresh each year, that is not how I buy it.

Rosefolly

Hi all-

1) So, Don, (or anyone else) just to confirm IÂd say my scab problem was moderate compared to my more serious CAR problem. To control your scab, you just spay your copper once (just before bud break)Â and you donÂt spray anything else during the season. No Captan, or anything else, correct?

2) Scott  IÂm thinking of trying the above plan using the Kocide 3000. Do you know of a good place online to purchase it? IÂm not finding a whole lot of places.

3) Silly newbie question  So, is the bark of my trees going to be a bit blue/green for a while? For most of the season? ThatÂs going to take some getting used to!

4) Can I combine the Kocide 3000 with my "All Seasons Spray" dormant oil? I know Michael357 said he did this in another post.

5) As for the buildup of copper in the soil Does the buildup come from the overspray? Or the rundown off the trees? Or both? If it was primarily from the overspray has anyone ever thought about laying down a tarp before spraying? (Does my tarp then become hazardous waste!?) If I spray the trees once a year, for the next 20 years, am I likely to have a buildup of copper which will cause me serious problems? (i.e. is this plan sustainable?)

6.) How close to bud break do I need to spray it? I suspect that each one of my trees will bud break at slightly different times. By looking at my photos, IÂm guessing that would spray around April 10th or so here in RIÂ does that sound about right to you? (Do you keep a spray calendar? Or wing it each year?) I might want to go a bit before that this year just because I donÂt want to miss bud break one day and then the Kocide might damage the tree? If I go a bit earlier, would it reduce the effectiveness to the point that IÂd need to worry?

7) How about the dormant trees being planted this year what if theyÂre starting to bud-break? Might I need a different plan for them? Do you think this copper spray is safe enough to try on all my other (non Disease Resistant) trees? Or, is there enough risk that I should only do it on some of the trees?

8) IÂm thinking IÂll probably skip the copper on my Liberty, Enterprise & Williams Pride. Sound reasonable?

Thanks to everyone for putting up with all my questions!
-Glenn

Glenn:

1. I think dormant copper sprays are an effective way to deal with overwintering scab on apples (although cleaning up infected leaves under the trees may be equally helpful), and one, good, thorough spray just prior to or at bud break should be sufficient to control it. On stone fruits like peaches, where bacterial disease is a serious threat in my climate, I usually do two copper sprays, one early and one late. Scab is not nearly the problem on my apples as cedar apple rust, and for that I depend on early sprays with Ferbam. CAR does not overwinter on apple trees, but on its alternate host the Eastern Red Cedar, and blows in afresh each spring. Ferbam must be on the trees when the disease spores arrive. I don't regard Captan as an effective fungicide for orchard fruits, although it may have some useful applications in the vegetable garden or on strawberries. However, some people use it and swear by it.

2. Kocide 3000 is available from RoseCare in California, and it is not cheap. Cost of 10 lbs. is $109.50. That is a lot of material, probably enough to last you many years, so sharing an order with another orchardist would make sense if you can find anyone who is interested. I use an older product called Kocide DF, which has 61.4% active copper hydroxide, and 40% fixed copper equivalent. The Kocide 3000 may be stronger, and you could use less. You may be able to find one of the Kocide formulations in smaller amounts, but I don't know where that would be.

3. You can find blue/green areas on the trees for several weeks after applying Kocide, but the entire tree does not change color. As far as I am concerned, the blue/green color can stay as long as it likes, and you are correct that that is a silly question. I agree with Scott that, unless applying Kocide in combination with an oil spray, use of a sticker/spreader will increase the staying power of the chemical, just as it would any other spray material. I apply Kocide in combination with dormant oil.

Skip 4, see above answer in para. 3.

5. There will be little difference between "overspray" and spray material running down the trunk. The effect is the same: the spray material, copper in this case, enters the soil. If you have the time and inclination to lay down a tarp, you might be able to reduce the overspray factor. I prefer to keep overspray and rundown to a minimum by pruning the trees prior to spraying, keeping the height of the trees down where I can easily reach them, using a long spray wand, and keeping the spray nozzle fairly tight so the spray is finely atomized. Don't spray more than you have to to achieve full coverage. I don't think anyone can say how your soil will be affected in 20 years, but using care in mixing and application will surely reduce any risk.

6. Your spring weather may be a lot like mine; lots of windy, rainy days, sometimes two or three in a row. Under these conditions, you spray when you can, and if it's a little before or after bud break there is not much to be done about it. Kocide will not damage your tree unless the leaves are opening, and even then the extent of damage will depend on how strong you make the spray mixture. It is certainly unwise to spray when it is windy and rainy. This past spring was really miserable in April here in Northern Virginia, and I missed the Ferbam spray. The result was so much cedar apple rust that my apple crop was greatly reduced, so much so that I didn't even bother to bag the surviving apples.

7. I wouldn't bother to spray newly-planted trees, though it won't hurt them if you do. Of course copper is safe to use on any tree if applied before they leaf out. I don't see much risk here at all.

8. If you are confident that your disease resistant trees will remain that way during the next growing season, and they held up well during the past season, then don't spray. I don't believe in spraying anything, insecticide or fungicide, unless there is a good reason for it, and that reason is usually past experience with insects or disease.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Glenn, Don answered nearly all of your questions. I would add that for me I do need to do more than just dormant disease sprays on apples, especially in a year with a very wet spring like last year. I only did one sulphur spray all last summer, and it showed in my apples. For the first time I had a major brown rot problem on apples. I am going to be adding some disease-preventative to every spray in the coming summer.

I bought my Kocide 3000 from Johnnys. Keep in mind that you need to use only half the amount of Kocide 3000 when considering the price.

Scott

Wow Don. As always, I cant thank you enough for your time and advice.
1) Ok, got it. I will do a dormant Kocide3000 spray, and a bud break Kocide3000 spray, each combined with dormant oil, and that will be my entire scab plan for this year.
2) Right. RoseCare is the place I found online. I was hoping to find a smaller quantity, as I suspect this will be a lot for my few small trees. Wow! $109.50, even more at Johnnys (Thanks Scott!). If anyone knows where I could get a smaller quantity, Id be interested.
3) Interesting. I was thinking of combining the dormant oil simply because I usually do a dormant spray of oil (to reduce scale, aphids, etc). But, it sounds like youre saying that this also acts as a sticker for the copper. Interesting! Sounds like I can get a dual benefit by adding the dormant oil. .
5) I think I may indeed try the tarp.
6, 7, 8) Got it!

Thanks again for everything,
-Glenn

Glenn, Johnnys sells 4lb and maybe smaller. Type kocide into their search box.

Scott

Ahhh yes, thanks for the info Scott! I see the 4lb bag for $55 which is certainly getting to be more reasonable. Thanks! -Glenn

Scott:

I don't know if cedar apple rust is a serious issue for you, and, if so, how you deal with it, but in the just past disastrous CAR season here many of my apples that had just small touches of CAR later rotted on the trees. Small fruits that were more seriously affected did not develop at all, and many ended up as tiny mummies right on the trees. I am removing them now as I prune.

The type of rot that seems to follow CAR is different from what I call bulls-eye rot, in that always begins at the blossom end of the apple where the CAR strikes, rather than on the sides of the fruit.

I wonder whether some of the rot you saw on apples this past season might have this same origin. I hope not, since I wouldn't wish CAR on anyone. What a chore it can be in a rainy, windy spring, but I will be out there with Ferbam in spring '09 come hell or high water. I am also doing everything I can to sanitize my trees over the dormant season, even though I don't think CAR persists on the apple trees over the winter. You never know for sure.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Don, CAR is the one thing I did not get too badly. It used to be bad but after axing down enough cedars it got much better. The rot I had was mainly on the sides. I had a huge amount of brown rot spores on the plums and peaches, and I think they got into everything this year. I had several dozen stone fruit trees which had every single fruit on them rot.

Scott

Scott,

I'm curious as to how close any remaining cedars are to your orchard, i.e. whether removing those cedars very close to your orchard made a significant distance, even if you have many more within a 2 mile radius. I ask b/c I've got thousands of cedars on my property and I'm not willing to cut down that many native trees, but would be willing to do so for about 50 of the closest trees if I thought it would make a significant difference.

Thanks,
djofnelson

dj, I still have some cedars not too far away (as in 100' or so from some of my apple trees) but there are not many of them in the general area. So the overall pressure is not that bad for me. I get CAR now, but its nothing compared to what I used to get.

I am sure that chopping down the 50 closest trees would help things for you, but it could just turn an impossible problem into a bad one.

Scott

DJ:

About 15 years ago I took down a mature red cedar in the neighbor's yard that was no more than 40 feet from the corner of my orchard -- a corner occupied by a very susceptible Stayman Winesap. At the time, I thought it made quite a difference, but in subsequent years I realized that CAR prevalence was primarily weather dependent, and in a cool, rainy, windy spring I would get severe CAR infections anyway. The red cedar is native here too, and in a one-mile radius from my place there are probably hundreds more. The spores have no trouble traveling the distance to my orchard, and in a bad year will drastically reduce my apple crop without timely application of Ferbam. Conversely, in a spring that is relatively dry, with rapid warmup, I might not see much CAR at all. I prefer to take the safe route and spray, since I never know how the weather is going to develop.

If I lived in Nelson County, as I assume you do, I would probably go up the road to North Garden and ask Charlotte if she has CAR problems and if so, how she deals with them. Vintage Virginia Apples is one of the most capably managed orchard operations in the state, and Charlotte can draw on the long experience of Tom Burford. I would probably be up there checking out the operation about once a week during critical seasons. I haven't been down there for many years, but I hope the same people are still in place.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Scott, thanks for the advice. I'll expand my "cedar-free" zone this winter.

Don, I managed to find some Ferbam on the shelves of a local hardware store and I plan on using it this spring. Also, thanks for the reminder to use VVA more as a resource. I've stopped by there some, but not nearly enough considering it is 10 minutes away. By the way, the same people are there (and they have also begun to expand beyond just apples).

DJofNelson-
Wow! You found Ferbam! Lucky you!
If it were me, I'd go back and buy some more packages of it, if there are any left. If you look around on the internet, people are often desperate for the stuff. You might be able to help out other people here on the forum, and possibly make yourself a small profit... to help pay for more trees! I am still very greatful for the friend here who helped me obtain Ferbam.
-Glenn

Glenn,

Unfortunately, there was just one dusty can on the shelves. After having found it once, I've continued to look for it in small hardware stores, but haven't found it again.

Djofneslon

Hi Scott-
As I gear up to do my dormant Kocide 3000/horticultural oil spray, I've re-read this post, and decided to ask you...

I would add that for me I do need to do more than just dormant disease sprays on apples, especially in a year with a very wet spring like last year.

Im currently planning on doing this spray (Kocide & oil) twice as Jellyman recommends. Once during the dormant season (Ive winter pruned already), and once just prior to bud break. Are you saying that this alone has not been enough to control your scab, and youve also had to use sulfur during the growing season? If so, can you share the details of your sulfur spraying (when until when, how often, and did that finally solve the problem etc). Would you agree that I probably should just stick with my plan this year (to see how it goes) and then look at doing additional sulfur scab prevention if necessary next year?

The dormant spray plan: 1 gallon water, 2 tbsp Kocide 300, 10 tbsp Bonide Horticultural oil (4% dormant solution). Once I do the 2nd Kocide spray, I may reduce the oil % slightly based on the label. For now Im stuck with my crappy 1 gallon hardware store sprayer. No backpacker sprayer for Christmas. *pout*. Actually, for one of my Liberties, my Enterprise, and my Williams pride, theyre just going to get oil, no Kocide or Ferbam. Well see how they do.

Scott/Jellyman/anyone - It sounds like one of the two Ferbam sprays also comes at bud break. How long between spraying the Kocide do you wait until you spray the Ferbam? You cant combine the Oil/Kocide/Ferbam into one spray, correct?

Thanks as always for all your help.
-Glenn

Glenn,

I can't answer your questions (but they are timely ones that have been on my mind, as well). However, I'd been meaning to post about the early CAR portion of this thread. As suggested by jellyman, I went to Vintage VA Apples a few weeks ago to buy some trees and pick their brains. I learned that they spray based on a schedule provided by their pesticide supplier. I thought you'd be interested to know that they use a CAR spray which has the same active ingredient as Immunox. They do 2 sprays at about 10 days apart and it was timed in early spring (March?) and they attempt to anticpate the first spring rains. Mr. Shelton said that this takes care of their CAR problem despite 100's of cedars on nearby borders with other properties.

djofnelson

Hi Djofnelson-
Very interesting! That lends hope to the idea that it will be a legal method for preventing CAR for those who can't find the increasingly difficult-to-obtain Ferbam.
"...same active ingredient as Immunox". I thought "Immunox was the chemical. (I couldnt find any other chemical name listed on the bottle) I don't suppose you remember the name of this commercial spray? I too was planning on doing 2 sprays of it, probably at the same time I do the Ferbam sprays, bud-break and petal fall as suggested by Jellyman, for my non-Ferbam trees experiment. The 10 days apart is good to know do you think it might also be around bud-break and petal fall? Im not sure Im good enough to start predicting and timing the rains, but do you know what theyre looking for when they time it? Do they try to do it after the rain dries? And when its not going to rain for a while?
Well see if Scott has any suggestions about my posts (above and other thread) from yesterday.
Thanks for your investigations!
-Glenn

Glenn,

Regaring Immunox, he said they sprayed the same thing, but it was sold under a different name (it might have been a commerical mix with Immunox in it).

I think their point about weather is that the first spring storms blow in the spores from cedar trees, so you want the chemical on the leaves before the spores arrive. I'd assume that the spray just needs to dry (as compared with it being desirable for copper sprays have more time to work), but this is just a guess.

I'm going to stop by again in the next few weeks and I'll clarify the above.

Spectracide makes the product called Immunox, there is also Immunox Plus containing an insecticide. Immunox is a fungicide whose active ingredient is 1.55% myclobutanil. From my searches on the web it takes some looking to find it at the lowest price. There are alot more sites with the "Plus" version than just straight Immunox. Check the thread below for a supplier.

Michael357-
Ahhhhh! You are right, and I stand corrected. I didn't realize/remember that Myclobutanil was the active ingredient in Immunox. I now see it (in very tiny letters) on the bottle. When I was originally looking for Immunox, I checked my local hardware store (owned by the in-laws!) and I believe they did indeed have Myclobutanil, but I didn't know it really was what I wanted! O'well. I wound up getting mine at the link below for a whopping 31 cents cheaper. At least the Spectracide Immunox has apple trees listed right on the label, where as Im not positive the other Myclobutanil product did. Knowing this fungicide is a little more common than I thought makes me feel a little better. Thanks!
Right. It seems like many places have "Immunox Plus", but that contains an insecticide which is not rated for fruit trees.

DJofNelson-
Sounds like Michael357 has cleared up the mystery of what they sprayed. Thank you for your investigations about the timing of the spraying! Hopefully between all of us, well have a plan for this spring.
-Glenn

Bump.
I'm hoping Scott, Jellyman, or anyone else will have some answers/thoughts for my Dec 27 post. Thanks in advance! -Glenn

Glenn, I missed your Dec 27 question.. I have in past years only done a couple sulphur sprays through the summer and that was always fine until last summer when brown rot got very bad, even on the apples. Next summer I plan on adding some disease control spray to every tank, e.g. when I am spraying Surround or spinosad I will throw in a disease suppressant. That will give me about 6 sprays over the summer months (once Sept comes the cooler weather takes the disease pressure off). I am not yet decided on which ones to use; I generally try to be organic so you may not be so interested in what I use in any case. Mainly sulphur plus I am going to try Serenade again, and I also may experiment with some very dilute copper sprays on a few trees to see if the leaves can take it.

Scott

Hi Scott-

Thanks for the info!

Actually, I do like to be organic when possible... which is why I often vouch for Disease resistant trees. Some of my DR trees will be organic (I think) this year by just using horticultural oil on them. Other DR trees will still get some copper (debatably organic). And my non DR trees will get those treatments, but also a very non-organic couple of Ferbam or Immunox sprays. If there was an organic solution for CAR that truly worked, Id certainly prefer that, but as far as I know, there really isnt one.

I also like my blackberries and raspberries because they are organic too no sprays just a little compost.

Thanks,
-Glenn