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source for native Wisconsin blackberries

Posted by northwoodswis4 4a (My Page) on
Mon, Nov 3, 14 at 14:42

Does anyone know of a source for the native Wisconsin blackberry Rubus Wisconsinenis? Are they hard to find for sale because they aren't recommendable for growing? I have some acreage where I would like to try a patch of them. I could mow around it, and if it got too horrible in the center, the birds would enjoy them. There is also an allegany variety that supposed grows here. We are located near St. Paul, MN, in western Wisconsin. Or could I try planting some seeds, if someone has some? Most of the commercially available varieties don't seem hardy this far north. Or would the birds spread them around and they become a nuisance like the wild raspberries are? Northwoodswis


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

  • Posted by Drew51 5b/6a SE MI (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 3, 14 at 14:50

Many Rubus species will grow in Wisconsin. You could find some wild ones and move them. Growing from seed is extremely difficult. Stratification and scarification with sulfuric acid would be needed to grow from seed.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

Growing from seed is extremely difficult

Not unless this species is pretty unique!! Blackberries grow extremely easily from seed. They just need to be planted in fall so they can go through proper natural stratification. Even berries left on the soil surface can germinate and form new plants. Second year plants from seed will even bear fruit.

Try checking with any native plant nurseries (or your DNR) for starts if seeds are difficult to locate.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

  • Posted by Drew51 5b/6a SE MI (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 3, 14 at 17:22

I'm going by university methods of propagation. I breed Rubus plants. Looking to patent a few. It is very rare for fallen fruit to germinate. Fruit germinates after passing through the stomachs of birds. So I respectively disagree. Most small plants near a Rubus patch are suckers or tip rooted plants.
In extreme winters they tend to sucker, even if they never have before. Last winter produced a lot of suckers.
It is possible to grow the way you mention, but I would not recommend putting fruit out and hope it germinates.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Mon, Nov 3, 14 at 17:29


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

You are free to disagree all you like. Here, various species of Rubus grow naturally, as well as several invasive species. These include three different species of blackberries. Even after the land is cleared of all traces of the plants, including the roots, new plants spring up for several seasons, germinating from fallen berries. It happens.

From the US Forest Service:
Seed: Most blackberries produce good seed crops nearly every year [4]........
Germination: Blackberry seeds have a hard impermeable coat and dormant embryo [2,14]; consequently, germination is often slow. Most blackberries require, as a minimum, warm stratification at 68 to 86 degrees F (20 to 30 degrees C) for 90 days, followed by cold stratification at 36 to 41 degrees F (2 to 5 degrees C) for an additional 90 days [2]. These conditions are frequently encountered naturally, as seeds mature in summer and remain in the soil throughout the cold winter months

Scarification may help to speed up or improve germination but it is not a requirement.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

I haven't found any at the native plant websites, nor the DNR one. Anyone know where I could legally dig a couple wild blackberry plants next spring in western Wisconsin? Thanks. Northwoodswis


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

Gardengal, try it this spring, then comment on it. Most people fail at germination. When they say germination is slow, they mean it takes about 2 years without scarification.
Look up the studies to increase germination as it is near zero without scarification and is documented in numerous studies like the study by RM Skirvin, MA Norton and AG Ottercaher from the University of IL (Hortscience 30(1):124-126 1995)
I tried for 3 years including what you are suggesting with zero luck. I finally talked to Pete Tallman the breeder of the Niwot black raspberry and he gave me instructions on germination. It worked well. In 6 years of growing brambles I have never seen a volunteer btw. I grow about 35 cultivars of blackberries, raspberries, and other Rubus plants. I can tell you never germinated brambles, else your response would be completely different.
I would suggest you read the book Raspberries and Blackberries: Their breeding, diseases, and growth by D.L. Jennings (The Scottish Research Institute). NAFEX library has a copy of the book.
I would take wild seeds and try northwoods. It is legal to take fruit. I will post a method using bleach at a later date. I use acid, and not sure how long to soak with bleach? I'm awaiting a response from Pete.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Nov 4, 14 at 1:40


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

I don't even know where to find any wild seeds. Ideas?
Northwoodswis


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

  • Posted by Drew51 5b/6a SE MI (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 4, 14 at 16:40

Well wild brambles are usualy around the forrest edge, maybe in state parks etc. Somebody must have these plants! I talked to Pete, glad I did! he is sending me some seed he crossed. He is too old to continue, giving up breeding after next season. But sharing an interesting cross he made! Use 1 cup water, 1 cup bleach, soak for 24 hours. Rinse and moisten seeds after that in paper towell and warm stratify with no light for 2 months, then put in fridge for another 2 months. Seeds will be ready at that time. He said blackberries take longer than any other bramble and are the hardest to germinate. 24 hours in bleach might not be enough.He said you need to experiment. Germination could take up to one year.
I suggest you ask gardengal to do it.
Here is a blackberry like bramble sold from seed, notice what they say about germination

Here is a link that might be useful: RUBUS LUDWIGII


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

  • Posted by Drew51 5b/6a SE MI (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 4, 14 at 16:42

Considering the above post I made, let's find you a plant. Although if you send me seeds, I can try to produce a plant for you.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

It is illegal to remove plants from state parks. Seeds sound like a pain. If someone knows where there are a couple plants in a ditch somewhere, I would be delighted to know. I don't want the invasive Himalayan ones, but rather the native Wisconsin ones. Hopefully I will be able to tell the difference. Thanks for all of your suggestions and advice. Northwoodswis


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

Are you looking to go dig them now? I know i've picked wild ones in the past, but would be tough to locate them now. This was in Trempeleau Co.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

  • Posted by Drew51 5b/6a SE MI (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 4, 14 at 18:55

Well I fell short of really helping, i will keep my eye open. I have a list of native Wisconsin Rubus plants, well saw one. i will post when i find it again! Wisconsinenis is only one, more exist! I did mean forage seeds from the state parks, not plants, just to be clear, and it might be illegal to remove them from ditches too. A huge Wisconsin Garden guy is
Larry Meiller, He has a show on public radio. I listen to the pod casts all the time. I bet he could help you, contact him!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Larry Meiller show

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Nov 4, 14 at 18:59


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

I noticed that the variety 'Rubus allegheniensis' is also native to Wisconsin and very wide spread. I can walk 5 minutes in any direction outside my house and find a patch here in Northern KY. I have eaten them ever since I was a kid but honestly, I would recommend a thornless cultivated variety (e.g. Triple Crown, Ouachita, Osage, etc) unless you are feeling nostalgic. Whether they would tolerate your winter is another question.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

Triple Crown dies to the ground every year here in my yard. It survives by snow cover which sticks around here for months.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

Franktank,
I would dig them next spring early.
JTBurton,
I have some Prime Ark Freedoms on order for spring, but their hardiness here is questionable. Most commercial varieties are for warmer climes and a longer growing season. We are on the edge of zones 3 and 4. I have never seen wild blackberries here, only raspberries, which tend to be puny. Our hillside garden and yard is overrun with them, but the thorns are soft and small, so I can pull the reds without gloves. The blacks are a little nastier and tastier.
But several persons on Gardenweb have mentioned picking wild blackberries in Northern Wisconsin, so I thought I would try some out on our land, where they hopefully could be contained. Northwoodswis


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

  • Posted by Drew51 5b/6a SE MI (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 4, 14 at 23:15

Here's the link to various blackberries native in Wisconsin,
http://www.gardenguides.com/112734-blackberries-grow-wisconsin.html


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

I don't need to try it, Drew. It happens naturally every year. Ripe fruit falls in summer.....new plants pop up the following spring. You may get higher germination rates with scarification but it is by no means a requirement.

The University of Washington has done propagation studies on our native blackberry, Rubus ursinus. The seeds were collected from ripe fruit, dried and refrigerated for 3 months. They were then surface sown, watered and germinated 14 days later with a 50% germination rate. No scarification and 14 days doesn't sound like a very long germination period to me.

This is by far not the most efficient means of propagation of any rubus species and I'd suggest the OP attempt to locate started plants. Or, with permission, take tip cuttings of existing plants in spring.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

northwoodswis4,

Sounds like you would only grow the Prime Arks for their primocane crops due to your harsh winters. I may have mentioned this before, but I would figure out how many frost free days you have before you plant the Prime Arks. I have about 180 days which gives me about 45 to 60 days to harvest the berries before frost. That assumes the Freedoms are one the same fruiting schedule.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

jtburton,
We have 4-5 months between killing frosts. Even the five months would only be about 150 days. Does that mean I should cancel my order?
The only source I have found for possible hardy blackberries is Wallace-Woodstock. They only sell Darrow for 2015. Anyone tried that one? Apparently they used to sell Stenulson and Balsors, but don't offer it on their website now. Maybe I will call them. Northwoodswis


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

northwoodswis4,

I can try to find out the minimum growth period for Prime Ark Freedom but if it is similar to Prime Ark 45, then you may want to limit your purchase to 'trial' plants. If I back out the 60 days for fruiting from the total frost free days in my area (180) then we are looking at 130-135 days for the plants to begin fruiting (about 4.3 months). You would need at least that many frost-free days to get a crop.

You may be able to speed that process by warming the ground over the plants by using black landscape fabric or similar material or by covering the fruiting plants when you reach frost periods in the Fall.

Going a completely different direction, you may have more luck with less cold hardy trailing blackberries which you can cover more easily. If you have a long period of snow cover, the better insulated the trailing blackberries would be. There is at least one person I know of that grows trailing blackberries in Alaska but he has a lot fewer frost free days to work with.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

  • Posted by Drew51 5b/6a SE MI (My Page) on
    Wed, Nov 5, 14 at 14:40

Well I'll stick with the advice from professional PHD breeders, but thanks for your help gardengal. As I said I tried your method for three years. Not one took. So I'm done trying without scarification. Maybe certain wild species do better than others, but it is just too hard. Even with scarification it is still a very long process.
For breeding purposes it is not a good technique. At least raspberries are easier, but I do want to breed blackberries too. When time permits.

Northwoods. I grow a number of trailing blackberries. many are not hardy here, but covering them with leaves and using anti-desiccant sprays can help them survive. I need more time for experimentation to find best method. So far I can make them survive at least. Yield is low, I hope to have better results next spring. It's a lot of work, and such. Anyway your idea of growing wild is a good one, it will work if you can find seed, Also what gardengal suggests just putting them out there could work. I have never seen it, but something here may be prevending germination. All gardening is local. I really do think though people should not give advice on techniques they themselves have never tried. That is a huge red flag in my book.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

greetings:

Years ago I noticed people picking native blackberries in
western WI around the town of Amery while visiting a friend. Lots of folks out with 5 quart pails picking.

My friend had already picked and his wife had a blackberry pie for me. Mighty nice.

The native blackberries seemed thick as fleas is that area,
yet I have not found them to any extent in SE WI.

When I lived in Eastern Minnesota, I found them to be plentiful too. I always wondered why nobody offered the
native strain or perhaps would use them in breeding purposes to come up with some super hardy blackberries for WI and other similar climates.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

Prime Ark Freedom looks like it ripens earlier than Prime Ark 45 by maybe 2 weeks. That gives you about 15 more days to work with.

Here is a link that might be useful: Prime Ark Freedom


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

I know right where Amery is. We almost bought a house there once. Were people picking along the roadside?
Apparently the Stenulson variety that Wallace-Woodstock used to offer was a local wild strain. They also list Darrow as zone 3, so I may try a few of those.
I only have ordered three Prime Ark Freedoms for experimental purposes. I plan to cover them with one-foot square styrofoam blocks in winter and expect to only be able to harvest the primocane fruit most years, since the global warming didn't pan out like many of us northerners had hoped. The canes will probably freeze, but hopefully I can keep the roots alive. I have lots of room for them to spread, so yield doesn't need to be huge to please us. I like the thornless feature. I would expect that the Darrows and Freedoms would not necessarily ripen at the same time, either.
Today I saw a recipe for blackberry pickles. Sounded really gross!
Thanks, everyone, for all of your suggestions.
Northwoodswis


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

Northwoods:

Yes they were picking along the roadsides. Also along any power lines thru the wooded areas as those spots were clear cut for the lines so lots of sunlight and lots of blackberries.

Sorry not to be more definite, but my friend moved to Spooner after that. I do recall it was outside of Amery as we were heading to a lake to do some fishing. People everywhere with their pails. Even saw some who parked their motorcycles and joined the foray to just eat them fresh on the spot.

I could not figure out what they were picking but my friend mentioned it was blackberries as his family had just picked the day before.

The issue will be to find some and dug them when dormant? Wish I could be more helpful. Good luck.

My friend worked at the Soil Conservation District but then was transferred to the office in Spooner, WI. Just a possibility, but try contacting someone at the soil conservation office for the Amery area or for your local area. Those workers put on a lot of miles walking the local
fields and know their areas well. I would think they could give you directions to a local wild stand. Or try a local
DNR office.


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RE: source for native Wisconsin blackberries

Spartan-Apple,
Okay. Good idea. I just sent an email to the Soil Conservation District to one of the workers listed who had been there a long time. We will see what happens. Thanks. Northwoodswis


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