I never had this problem so I really don't know what is best. For organic and is more of preventative is Serenade® Garden Disease Control. Uses a bacteria, certified organic. A great product for raspberries which often have flowers, this product is not toxic to bees.

You can also use Bonide Citrus, Fruit & Nut Orchard Spray. Unsure what active ingredient is? This is an all in one spray for insects and fungus and can be used on raspberries.

Lime-sulfur can also be used on raspberries, but I don't think it is used for rust? It's for cane and spur blight, anthracnose and powdery mildew.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Nov 5, 13 at 17:24

Thanks Drew, but with no practical application of these products for Yellow Rust, how do you know they are right? I'll continue surfing the net, but thanks anyway for trying, Mrs. G

I guess it depends how you define right? Are they manufactured for treatment against rust on raspberries? Yes they are. Do they work? I have no idea? I would start with products though meant for rust and safe on raspberries. The company would be hard pressed to sell products if they do not work, my guess is they do indeed work. Both are very well known companies that's for sure. Both products have numerous patents. Good luck!

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Nov 5, 13 at 23:04

If this is your problem, as per the Cornell site :
"To control orange rust begin by planting only healthy
black raspberry and blackberry stock. Eradicate
infected wild blackberries and black raspberries near
your raspberry patch. As the rust becomes systemic in
the host, remove and destroy infected plants as soon
as they appear in the spring. Thin healthy canes and
keep weeds down to promote good air circulation
which helps prevent spore germination and infection.
There are no effective fungicides for control of orange
rust at this time.
Created, KLS, 8/99, Updated SLJ, 2/11"

Orange rust would not be on red raspberries. If we are talking about red raspberries, you can treat them.
Yellow rust is not a big deal. I think you can use copper for that also. In late infections no treatment is recommended. It's a foliar disease, and not systemic, so can easily be treated. I would use the preventatives next season like the ones mentioned.
Late rust is more of a problem. Lot's of commercial products for people with applicator licenses, copper is also one regular backyard people can use.Use while dormant for both rusts. Rust will remain on canes, so treating with copper will help hopefully! Lime-sulfur may be useful too against yellow rust. I use both all the time for trees. Now I think i will spray my raspberries too, as you now have me paranoid!

This post was edited by Drew51 on Wed, Nov 6, 13 at 0:48

if you are talking about Red Raspberries then I agree with Drew51 that Lime-sulfur may help alleviate the problem.

Thanks Guys! I have lime- sulfur and Copper. I'm about to spray copper on my peaches. Tis the season! Mrs. G

UC Davis does recommend copper for yellow or late rust.
They also mention lime-sulfur for yellow rust. They list a number of fungicides to use during growth, but they appear to be commercial use products.
Anybody know if any of the products listed are available for the backyard grower?

Link for late leaf rust:
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r71101211.html

Here is a link that might be useful: Yellow rust treatment

Well, myclobutanil is on the ucdavis list which as you know, Mrs. G is the active ingredient in Monterey FF. Probably much more affective than copper. Certainly is for CAR.

Thanks Harvestman, well you could use both. Since copper is the only dormant spray listed. But the problem with this is those darn raspberries flower all the time, and the bees. So no worries during dormancy, so I would use MFF before first flowers, and then prevent reinfection with
the Bacillus bacteria in the Serenade product, at least the 1st year, as spores may be around. Probably are! And it won't hurt the bees, and will eliminate any bugs too.
One can use cooper or sulfur and Serenade and be organic. Usually raspberries need nothing. But all plants run into problems from time to time. Since blackberries are also in the Rubus genera, this regime can be used for them too. Awesome discussion for me, as I have over 30 Rubus species plants.

My problem is that my raspberries and blackberries are also on one side of my enclosed orchard. The trees have grown and provide far more shade than anticipated. Given shade and very humid summers by the sea, it is a perfect growing area for fall yellow rust. I am cutting back my raspberries now, spraying and adding clean mulch for winter. I have MFF. Guess I'll use that with a sticker in spring. Thank all, Mrs. G

That sounds like a good plan, but i would hit them with copper too while you're spraying your trees. Which sounds like you are doing that. Especially since it sounds like a problem area.
I have a patch on an eastern wall, so only get eastern morning sun. The leaves show yellow veins, looks like a virus, but it is low light. Yet they produce like gangbusters!
If you continue to have problems, the Serenade as a preventative might be in order. Hopefully the fungicides will work, but those fungi are persistant, never really going away.

Drew, Thanks so much. They do persist, but at least the rust only appears at the very end of my picking season. I had a good, but not terrific raspberry season. My trees have taken first priority. But I have ordered more raspberries for next spring. Mrs. G

Drew, I know nothing about rust on raspberries- they've always been sprayless fruit here, except one year when worms got into flowers.

On apples there would be no advantage of doing an extra spray of copper for CAR because CAR has cedar as a co-host during its life cycle so theoretically could not infect an apple from an apple (or itstelf). Myclobutanil, unlike most fungicides, has good kickback anyway.

I don't believe Myclo is problematic for bees even if they get sprayed directly with it. Most fungicides are approved for use when trees are in full bloom.

Harvestman,

I know you are a minimalist when it comes to spraying. I guess I'm over cautious. So advise two treatments. Yellow rust is not a big deal, you really don't even have to treat it, but I would anyway. It certainly isn't helping the plant. Plus she and myself both have to use copper for our trees, and frankly 1 gallon is too much. I don't even need a gallon, so I will spray my raspberries anyway. My brambles were very crowded this year, and just to make sure nothing can take hold, As a preventative, just like my trees. It's better than wasting the product, It's not going to hurt the plants, or me, so why not? I guess I will alter my advice and say if you have any leftover, might as well use it for the spores of yellow rust, which will remain on the canes, if not treated. No need for the MFF at this time, unless one uses it as a dormant spray. Then yes use it instead. UC Davis does not recommend it be used as a dormant spray, but does at bud break. I would use it then on the yellow rust also. You may have it out for your trees anyway.
I'm not sure when you would use this product for trees? That is a factor I didn't consider. For now I don't use it.
I use other products. My thinking was she is going to have the copper out, and the brambles have active spores, why break out anything else? The copper should work well enough, it's a sissy of a fungus. Some copper probably going to drift on them anyway, might as well hit them good.
Anyway that is my thinking and why I advised it.

What is frustrating to me is often I need to use two or more fungicides, to really knock a fungus down. A good example is management of Botrytis fruit rot on strawberries. one bed had this bad and two products used in succession works best. Captan and iprodione. I can't find any home products containing iprodione (know of any?). So the rot keeps coming back, and soon the spores could become resistant to Captan, plus I can only apply I think 3 times?
(Says on the label). So I'm screwed. I'm going to discard all plants in that bed. So I have learned that using multiple products is best. With SWD fruit fly MSU recommends various applications and to rotate insecticide used. So from my experience it's best to attack a problem with multiple weapons to effectively control it. I now assume this for all problems. I want it gone, so will always advise a multi-weapon approach. it works well, and stops resistance from developing in the pest you are controlling for.
I tend to rotate products, sometimes using sulfur instead of copper, just to mix it up. I think is an excellent idea. For now I have to rely on what universities say, I will gain my own experience in time, like I do now know Captan use alone is ineffective on Botrytis in strawberries. But studies show if followed by iprodione will stop Botrytis in strawberries. I wish I could at least try it argh! Other fungicides like copper and sulfur do not work at all on Botrytis. Others too. Captan is still the best one, but needs help! Captan can also be used for brown rot on peaches, and could be used along with say MFF (in rotation, not at the same time) to ensure a very low incidence of brown rot. Especially on prone cultivars like Indian Free.

I am not particularly in objection to spraying copper now- as I wrote, I'm not experienced with this pest on raspberries and I don't know anything about its life cycle. I don't believe in just adding on with the hope that more is better, either.

I have a feeling that MFF would completely clean it up by itself because it does an amazing job on CAR when applied at the right times. I get adequate control with only two sprays a year and usually complete control (not even a spot) with three.

If you don't try using less you can never find out how little spraying you can get away with. That is one thing that the universities are not very good sources of advice on as they use huge commercial orchards as the basis of their recs. I believe pest pressure increases with the number of trees growing in an area. This is something they never consider because it is not something that has been researched as far as I know.

Speaking of spraying less. . . I missed one of my 'group' sprays this past summer, for the first time. At first, I didn't notice much. The trees were clean. By the middle of October I noticed the tips of branches on certain peach trees turning black. Pruned the peach trees. On top of the pruned tips I just found little white eggs. I have never had insect eggs before, that I can see. I'll never miss a scheduled spray again. Mrs. G

"I don't believe in just adding on with the hope that more is better, either. "

Right so why use the big guns? Copper is fine.
I'm just following recommended treatment as suggested by UC Davis. They mention the spores wintering on the canes, let's get them now. Serenade in the spring, and you're completely organic. MMF isn't really needed, but if you have it out, i would use it in the spring. Let's try the rifles before we nuke them.

Scott mentions having less brown rot using MFF, if he added Captan in the rotation, he may not have had any.
I added into my rotation because of the strawberry problem, I have it out, where else can i use it? So the peaches get some too!

This post was edited by Drew51 on Thu, Nov 7, 13 at 19:33

I believe myclobutanil has a safer profile than Captan or copper. Just because something is more affective against certain fungus doesn't mean it is overall more dangerous to the environment.

"Captan can also be used for brown rot on peaches, and could be used along with say MFF (in rotation, not at the same time) to ensure a very low incidence of brown rot."

I've found captan to be extremely effective by itself against brown rot on peaches. Captan is a multi-site fungicide and so is generally recognized to have very low risk potential for fungi building resistance. For peaches there is no recommendation on the label to rotate to another fungicide to prevent buildup of resistant fungi.

Captan needs to be in buffered (acidic) water or it can break down rapidly. It's been discussed before on this forum. Alkaline hydrolysis could be part of the problem when experiencing poor performance with captan.

Good info Olpea! Rotation of fungicides is often used in various IPM programs. Usually based on site or mode of action. You are correct captan is awesome. It is what I use for brown rot. I don't use MFF.
.My label does say you can use it with other fungicides except alkaline types. It doesn't say not to with peaches.
Since fungi are at various stages of development using more than one fungicide is definitely more effective. With Botrytis in strawberries research has shown this is the way to handle it.
Here's what UC Davis has to say about treating strawberries with Captan
"
MODE OF ACTION GROUP NAME (NUMBER1): Multi-site contact (M4)
COMMENTS: A phthalamide fungicide. Can be tank mixed with fenhexamid (Elevate), thiram, or thiophanate-methyl (Topsin-M) for more effective control. For tank mixes, observe all directions for use on all labels, and employ the most restrictive limits and precautions. Never exceed the maximum a.i. on any label when tank mixing products that contain the same a.i. Do not apply in combination with, immediately before, or closely following oil sprays. Do not apply more than 48 lb/year."

You are correct about Captan not having the resistance problem. My bad I got it mixed up with iprodione (which I was talking about too) which fungi can develop resistance. Only one application of iprodione is suggested. I totally mixed the products up. I always re-read labels and would have caught this if I was actually using the products.
I see UC-Davis mentions other fungicides to use in combination. Maybe I can find them!
Again rotation or combination of fungicides is usually suggested depending on the problem.
So Olpea answer me this, so you use only one fungicide on peaches? Or do you think it best to use more than one? Copper, sulfur and other can also stop brown rot, and all stop various other fungal problems too. My suggestion to use MFF and captan (not just for brown rot but for scab too) is a solid suggestion. Obviously MFF was not 100% effective. I agree it's not just about resistance, but mode of action and/or stage of fungus.
Bacteria can become resistant to copper, or antibiotics, rotating agents at times may stop some cankers. it's not just about brown rot or other fungi. Rotation is a great idea and often suggested by university IPM programs if not every IPM program.

Rotation for brown rot is a must IMHO. The attached article is one of many making in general the same suggestions I just did.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rotation with brown rot in peaches

Here is another article from July of this year, again supporting the rotation method, and resistance problems in brown rot. Seems like Captan alone is not a good agent at least according to Rutgers...59% control only. I best follow my own advice!

Here is a link that might be useful: Brown rot resistance and rotation-Rutgers

This post was edited by Drew51 on Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 1:05

Once again, research is based on commercial production where I figure mathematically the odds are hundred times better to develop resistance. It is fear of resistance that leads to the advice of rotation.

There is no problem with following this advice, as long as it doesn't lead to the use of less affective fungicides that the homeowner can't respray after a rain (because of schedule conflicts) or spray more often. I think it is preferable to rotate if it can be done effectively and doesn't lead to environmental issues greater than the benefit.

Essentially it is a judgement call every grower has to make for themselves.

I often add Captan in my mix to increase the effectiveness of myclo against scab and am happy to know it decreases odds of resistance but in 20 years at some sites I've relied entirely on myclo for CAR because I don't want to bother with the alternatives such as mancozeb. So far, no resistance.

I'm not trying to tell anyone how they should try to manage their own orchard just relating my own experience and thinking. Everyone must find their own way.

"Essentially it is a judgement call every grower has to make for themselves. "

That is perfect, I agree 100%. The information also from university to university is different too. Each coming from a different perspective. Mention Captan in Wisconsin, and they might throw things at you. Farmer Fred often says "all gardening is local" We all often agree on that!
It's really great to get your input and olpea too, as their is no substitution for experience.
Let's go back to Scott, I may be right (I could be wrong too!) he would get less rot, but if he is happy with the percent, he should not change a thing. I only use Captan, but will be adding MFF next spring for sure.
Olpea too, everything he said was right on, and I didn't know about the alkaline water problem, so it is something I can try. I will mix captan with rainwater and not tap water. it may make the difference in my strawberry problem. So I'm not going to rip the bed out. I have 5 strawberry beds, and only one has the problem. Production is done for this year anyway, but next year, I will use captan with rain water, and maybe with 1/8 teaspoon of ammonium sulfate to make sure water is acidic. Strawberries like an acidic environment too. They are growing fine in my very acidic blueberry bed.

Thanks for mentioning Mancozeb, it is often recommended too. In my area, resistance may be a problem, I just don't know yet? I'm biased coming from the medical field where resistance often defeated us. A major problem, and we discussed it once in the thread about super bugs. Let's not develop any in the garden!

Interesting in the Rutgers bulletin that untreated trees have 70% brown rot, man talk about a place not to grow peaches, it must be NJ! I found the statement they made to treat the growing season as one big epidemic amusing :)
I guess it may be as bad for us, obviously their is no such thing as "no spray peaches".

I have customers who get "no spray peaches" if they knock out any with rot as soon as it appears. But they can't give their product away.

"So Olpea answer me this, so you use only one fungicide on peaches? Or do you think it best to use more than one?"

Drew,

I use more than one fungicide on my peaches. I agree w/ Hman's assessment that mathematically pest resistance (insect/fungi/weeds) has almost no chance of occurring at the backyard level vs. at the commercial level. Still, it hasn't been difficult for me to rotate.

Sadly, not all commercial operators follow this guideline. I know of two who use only one insecticide all season long. They use it because it's cheap and very effective, but it's a mistake in my view.

I can't explain why Rutgers only got 59% control with captan, When I've used captan for BR, I've gotten much better control, but I pay attention to the weather and reapply if the captan gets washed off.

In the past few years I haven't relied on captan as much for brown rot. The problem for me is not lack of efficacy, but the film it leaves on the fruit. Since I sell my fruit, I don't like the unsightly film it leaves.

Captan requires several pounds per acre, whereas the newer technologies require a few ounces per acre and don't leave a film. Plus the newer technologies have a higher margin of safety.

Peaches tend to collect dust on their fuzz anyway, and captan just adds to this problem. I haven't ever gotten complaints about the appearance of captan on peaches, but I know it looks bad. As an aside, I have gotten a complaint about plums I've sold. Some people have mistaken the (bloom) on plums for pesticide residue (it's not) but my unwashed plums don't look as pretty as the ones in the store.

"I can't explain why Rutgers only got 59% control with captan, When I've used captan for BR, I've gotten much better control"

I'm a little worried about scab. I think one of my peaches showed signs last year of having it. Spotting on some twigs, and also spots, then holes on the leaves. Sulfur (not lime-sulfur) and captan are the only home treatments, and are rated good, not excellent. I saw at another university the use of the active ingredient in "infuse" (thiophanate menthyl) with captan.
It is a systemic fungicide, and the site had it listed, but on the home product "Infuse" it is not meant for use on edibles, and warns against it. The university rated control as excellent. So I'm not sure if it should be used or not? Sounds like as hard a hitter as possible, and systemic, so for sure very dangerous to say the least. Anyway I have to treat at the right time next year, as one of my trees may have scab. It has something! it showed up late in the year. So one must make sure they spray fruit trees every year, even if too young to bear fruit! Argh! I sprayed, but not for scab, a mistake! It's possible it's shot hole or something else too.

Also immunox was rated as excellent against brown rot. It may be a better choice than captan or MFF? The site did not have the active ingredient in MFF (myclobutanil) as an option, so unsure how that product rates?

Man, growing peaches in a chemistry experiment! Not really easy at all in any way! Timing is important to maintain the upper hand, argh, this is work!

My use of Captan on my Enterprise apples left the skins looking russeted and brown. Not attractive to the eye for sure. It also seemed to burn my Italian Plums as well. I do not use it on my Peaches. I don't want the white spray left on the fuzz. I've decided to back away from Captan. My use of MFF has given excellent results. Immunox & triazicide is fine for most of what I need. What I have found imperative is a sticker. It helps a great deal and you can spray less. Mrs. G

" I saw at another university the use of the active ingredient in "infuse" (thiophanate menthyl) with captan."

Thiophanate methyl (most commonly called Topsin M) has been around a long while. They used it quite extensively in apple orchards for scab. However, it turns out scab somehow develops resistance very easily against Topsin M and resistance is very widespread so, as I understand it, very few commercial growers use it anymore.

Because of scab's propensity to build resistance against the compound, it's highly recommended to tank mix another fungicide (of a different class) with Topsin. I myself have never used Topsin.

"Also immunox was rated as excellent against brown rot. It may be a better choice than captan or MFF? The site did not have the active ingredient in MFF (myclobutanil) as an option, so unsure how that product rates? "

MFF has the active ingredient propiconazole. I do use it in a commercial formulation called Bumper. It's a DMI, same class as Indar, although not quite as effective as Indar for brown rot. Propiconazole or Indar both outperform myclobutanil against brown rot.

For my peaches, I prefer to use ziram for scab, although sometimes I use captan. Ziram is not rated quite as effective for scab, but I like to use it because it provides some foliar feeding of zinc.

Peaches are fairly heavy feeders of zinc. Scab needs to be treated early in the season, so by the time I start selling peaches, any captan or ziram residue is gone.

"MFF has the active ingredient propiconazole"

OK, well it was stated otherwise in this thread, I didn't look at the label, I don't have the product presently.
On the other fungicides mentioned, commercial products are not available to me, but I know sometimes alternatives can be found. Thanks for the info.
Sulfur can also be used for scab, but should only be in addition to another product. Well I guess if you use
thiophanate menthyl, you should probably only use one application. Chances are any scab around here is not resistant, I'm 50 miles from any actual orchard. I like the fact one can use it on grass and ornamentals. I have a few problems ones. I ripped a magnolia out this year due to continuous fungal problems, and also the fact I wanted to add an edible tree in it's place, the fungal problems was a good excuse to remove it. It was a lousy magnolia anyway the flowers were ugly and not well formed. I didn't like it. A Weeping Santa Rosa Plum was put in it's place.

All this work for these trees make me appreciate trees like paws paws and mulberries, where nothing is required to be done. Also dogwood cherries (Cornus mas), I have 15 of them, 14 are a hedge. One as a specimen (yellow fruited Cornus mas). I actually prefer berries to anything else, and glad I do, easier to handle, grow faster, mostly no spray.
Sweet corn too, a spray or two for bugs, and the cobs are protected against any residue. Super easy to grow etc.
My little experiment here might turn out to me dropping stone fruit all together. More room for blueberries!
Naw, I'm always up for a challenge, no big deal.
Strawberries can be a challenge too, but man they are so good! I'll never stop growing them. I expanded for next year. Adding many more Pineberries, which are excellent strawberries. I even like the little alpines, Harvested some today!

Yeah as far as what I will use exactly is undetermined. I need more experience to observe results here, all the input helps a lot, thanks! .

This post was edited by Drew51 on Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 7:25

"On the other fungicides mentioned, commercial products are not available to me, but I know sometimes alternatives can be found."

Sometimes there are homeowner formulations and sometimes not. Some people buy the smallest package of commercial formulation with the knowledge they are buying a "lifetime supply" for their small backyard orchard.

I buy I lot of my supplies from Midwest Grower Supply. I think they would sell you one or two items so long as you don't ask them to break up the packaging (which would be illegal). You can Google them if interested.

Schlabach's Nursery sells a few pesticides. You can order a free catalog. They don't have a website.

Of course you can Google the particular compound you are looking for, as there are several online business which sell chemicals.

Thanks for the leads! When I move, I would like to have 40 or 50 trees, slowly adding them. Property in St Clair county is cheap enough i should be able to pick up an acre cheap, and that should be plenty of room. I'm working this winter to clean this house out, I'm also in the process of borrowing 12 grand for repairs to get this house in shape to sell. I cannot wait to search for property!