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Mon, Nov 18, 13 at 20:02
| Here is an interesting twist I just happened across (while looking up the two chromosome numbers). http://www.uky.edu/Ag/CCD/introsheets/persimmon.pdf The main (and perhaps all extant) persimmon selections come from the 90 chromosome northern type. I was going to start some 60 chromosome plants from SC to use as rootstock to see if perhaps they will partially dwarf a 90 selection atop them. It might now be worth growing some on, to obtain a male 60 tree for pollinating 90 selections. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Many long term growers of American persimmons feel that the seeded fruit are larger and better tasting. I can confirm this from my orchard. John S PDX OR |
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- Posted by gonebananas 7/8 (My Page) on Tue, Nov 19, 13 at 20:17
| Thanks. Hadn't considered that. |
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- Posted by cousinfloyd NC 7 (My Page) on Tue, Nov 19, 13 at 21:48
| If northern persimmon females pollinated by southern persimmon males resulted in seedless fruit -- do I understand correctly that that's what you're suggested banana -- wouldn't the predominantly northern named cultivars all produce seedless fruit in the South? Am I not in the persimmon South in North Carolina? My Meader sure is full of seeds, and the others I know in the area growing named cultivars also have seeded fruit. I don't know the answers, but I'm just throwing these tidbits out for further discussion/feedback. |
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| NRNTN was, at one time, offering a 60-C male, 'Lover Boy' - with that thought - seedless fruits on 90-C females. Don't know if they're still offering it. But, like you, cuznfloyd, I *should* be in the 60C native range - everyone's always told me that the Ohio River was pretty much the dividing line, and I'm well south of it - but my 90-C D.virginianas were seeded, and I had no 90-C males grafted here until recently - and even at that, all I have is an F-100 located about a half-mile from the others. However, I do have Early Golden and Garretson in the mix... |
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| I have never tasted a seedless american persimmon that could come close to the quality of 'early golden', 'yates', and most other named varieties. Seedless fruits are also smaller. Admittedly I have not tasted or seen that many seedless fruit. On very rare occasions I have harvested one or two seedless 'early golden' and 'meader' and these fruit seemed to be as good as the seeded ones on the same tree. |
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| I've got one local native selection, SFES, that bears about 80% small(1") seedless fruits, and 20% moderately larger fruits that usually have a single plump seed in 'em. |
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- Posted by cousinfloyd NC 7 (My Page) on Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 14:13
| Lucky, how's the taste of your local seedless tree? Is there any difference in taste between the seedless and one-seeded ones? |
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| Nah. Tastes like most other local natives. No difference in taste between seedless or seeded fruits. I'd suspected it might be a fruitful male or polygamodioecious tree, but Jerry Lehman's graft of it produces only pistillate female flowers. |
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| It seems like the experiences of persimmon growers are not consistent, and mine will add more inconsistencies to the information. I live in East Tn., the native persimmon trees appear to be 60C. I have gotten fruit from at least 8 90C trees, and all are seedless. There have been a few exceptions, because I have a male hybrid at another location, and I have hand pollinated certain flowers to get hybrid seeds. The flowers that I do not pollinate all make seedless fruit. As for taste and size, mine are all seedless so I have no fruit on the same tree to compare either. I did get a few Yates that had one seed, from my hand pollination, but when I ate them I was not paying attention to the size or flavor. I also have a different view on the belief that a 60C male is required to produce a seedless 90C fruit. I have gotten seedless 90C fruit in the swampy areas of South Louisiana, where there are no wild persimmon growing. And the same for the Chestnut belief, there are no Chestnuts growing in the swamps. Kentucky State says that sometimes a 60 can produce a seeded 90, I have never had that happen, and Clifford England has never seen it either. About rootstocks, I have both 60 and 90, and am not sure if a 60 will add dwarfing characteristics. Male trees are more vigorous, so maybe a female as a rootstock would induce some dwarfing. I believe I was told by Jerry Lehman that if flowers are bagged, there will be no fruit to form. So it seems that in order to have a seedless fruit, a bee or some insect must visit the flower, and going by my experience, if 60C male pollen is not deposited by the bee, then what is happening? Benny |
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- Posted by cousinfloyd NC 7 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 21, 13 at 7:20
| Benny, thanks for sharing that. Lots of interesting points. Lots of new questions to wonder about, too. Just to confirm, you're growing common named cultivars of native persimmons and they're almost all producing seedless fruit for you in east Tennessee? A broader question for anyone: are any of the popular named varieties 60C? The only named variety that has fruited for me so far is Meader (which I chose specifically because it was advertised as often producing seedless fruit), and it's had plenty of seeds since it started producing 2 or 3 years ago, but I've recently bought and/or grafted Yates, Prok, and Early Golden, along with three seedless varieties, Ennis, Myers, and Owens. Lucky, I'm assuming by your comment above that Early Golden is known to also produce 90C male flowers? |
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| Floyd, my trees are young and the crops are small, some have been taken out, so my experience is limited. I have had the following seedless fruit. H-118 A-118 J-20A Geneva Red Evelyn Yates Mohler H-63A Morris Burton Killen J-59 Dollywood Benny |
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| Yes, that was my inference - the EG/Garretson line is reputed to occasionally/frequently(?) push 'male' limbs on an otherwise female tree, though some have questioned whether there's enough there to set full seeded crops on nearby females. The late Lon Rombough was of the opinion that the whole 'seedless' Meader thing was an environmental effect limited to the PNW - but nurseries elsewhere picked up that description and ran with it. |
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| Floyd, I checked with Clifford England, he thinks both Ennis and Myers are 60C, as they are both seeded in his orchard. He also said that Ennis is small, and he does not have Owens. Benny |
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- Posted by cousinfloyd NC 7 (My Page) on Fri, Nov 22, 13 at 7:38
| Benny, thanks very much for checking with Clifford and reporting back. I hadn't even considered yet that those varieties wouldn't be seedless everywhere. The seedless thing is seeming more and more complex and harder to understand. One thing I think should be easily answerable, though, is whether grafted named varieties planted in the South are almost always seedless, but I never even heard a suggestion of that before this thread, which really makes me doubt that it can be true. |
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