Not sure if you seen this but I didn't know that many mutations can take place on the same tree.

Here is a link that might be useful: Where Red Delicious came from, and why some are more delicious than others

donnieappleseed:

When I worked years ago at a commercial orchard (while
Red Delicious was still considered a premium apple) we grew about 5 different strains of red delicious.

I would say red delicious was the 'Honeycrisp' of that time period as we always charged more for them. When I asked the owner why, he said "perceived value". The trees were no more expensive nor shorter lived than other apple varieties yet people did not mind paying $5 a bushel more for them over other apple varieties.

I recall growing what was known as "old fashioned delicious" or as they now are called "Hawkeye". The fruit was thin skinned, striped and not very red. Very sweet and wonderful flavor.

We also had some Starking Red Delicious that I believe came out in the early 1940's? The owner recalled planting the trees with his father during World War 2. Dull red skin,
sweet but not as good as Hawkeye.

We also had numerous other sports like Red Prince (my
favorite as striped orange/red skin and very flavorful). I believe Hilltop Nursery in Michigan originated this strain.
I may be wrong.

We also had one of the Red Chief strains which was awful.
Beautiful color and form but tasteless.

We grew a few spur type strains too that were a brilliant red
skin color but chalky flavor.

A local heirloom orchard near me has a tree of Richard's
red delicious which I believe came out in the 1920's. I had
the chance to bud this tree but failed to do so. I had hoped to sample the fruit first before going thru the effort of budding it.

If I could find Red Prince anywhere for budwood/grafting,
I would grab it.

Not sure if any of this helps you out but that I what experiences I have with red delicious. Hopefully others chime in with what they can add.

The continual selection of Red Delicious sports based on packing criteria (i.e. color, size, shape) is of course what destroyed the apple.

We are slowly witnessing the same thing with Fuji. Look at all the different Fuji sports (seems like there are more every year) all claiming to have better color than the others.

Old ways of thinking are hard to break. Even today, apples are still graded (extra fancy, fancy, etc) based upon superficial appearance criteria.

You might contact David Vernon of Century Farm Orchards. He sells Hawkeye Red Delicious and is very knowledgeable about old apple varieties.

Thanks.....I welcome further input but already you guys have given me some good leads...I happen to know a guy here in Seattle who is a literal descendant of Jesse Hiatt ....and the Red Delicious apple has helped to make our state here what it is...before there was Boeing and Microsoft and Amazon, there were the Red Delicious........this is a good forum.....and one more of a million things I can be grateful for....Happy T-Day tomorrow.....and once again, any other input appreciated....will follow some of these leads.

I manage several old Red Delicious strains, and although they are far better than a lot of thick skinned, dark red, newer strains they are not a world class apple here. They are sweet but not aromatic. However they are pretty grower friendly and I've seen them produce decent fruit in unsprayed orchards. They are also reliably annual but produce a lot of unproductive spur wood and make best fruit for me on 2nd year shoots.

I disagree that redder strains are always less flavorful. Some of the RD problem may also be from producing fruit from spur type strains that don't carry enough leaves in ratio to the crop.

I prefer some of the new, redder strains of Jonagold, not because they are redder, but because they are firmer and taste a little better. There are also very red strains of Jonathan and Winesap that are very good. I haven't tasted any chalky, cardboard Fujis yet either. Maybe the growers have learned a lesson from the decline of the quality of RD.

Hawkeye RD is pretty easy to come by. Cummins carries it.

" I haven't tasted any chalky, cardboard Fujis yet either."

Neither have I, but Fuji is still a relatively new in its history of sport selection.

I wasn't trying to draw a singular correlation between color and fruit quality. My point was that as long as selection pressure is based on packing criteria (i.e. size, color, etc.) sport selection has a strong potential to reduce eating quality in the long run.

I agree there are some signs of hope the industry has learned its lesson, as witnessed by the significant decline of Red Delicious production relative to other, better tasting apples.

Still the same flawed industry structure is still in place. Namely, the typical commercial grower is too many layers removed from the consumer and/or has little financial incentive to produce a highly flavorful product. It's the same system which encourages growers to apply too much N and water, also producing chalky flavorless fruit.

At one time I knew a commercial catfish farmer in MS. Before he could ever harvest a pond, the buyer would send out a representative to taste the product. The rep would cast out line and reel in a fish. He would clean and pan fry over a small portable propane burner right there on the bank of the pond. If the fish didn't taste right (like too much algae flavor) the farmer would not be able to sell the fish until he killed the algae (i.e. algaecide) in hopes the fish flavor would improve enough to allow harvest.

That may be a little much to ask of the apple industry, but surely we could at least have an official grading system based on more than just appearance.

Ask any commercial tomato grower what he gets paid for:

1. Pounds of fruit produced
2. Size and shape of fruit, consistency is important
3. Shippable traits, hard, thick skin, etc.

Someone asked a commercial tomato grower why he didn't grow good flavored tomatoes. He replied, "I don't get paid for flavor".

Et tu apple.

I think the decline of Red Delicious may have been partially the result of the time- orchards were becoming larger and more industrialized and the population more urban and suburban and more interested in manufactured goods than high quality food.

There seems to be a strong trend to pay more attention to the quality of the eating experience in this country today and I really think that means more emphasis on good tasting food. I certainly have seen a big increase in the quality of produce, including fruit, in recent years.

Last year when my harvest was abysmal, I was able to find some really sweet and great tasting stone fruit from industrial production sources (huge CA orchards, shipped and distributed through several hands, surprisingly cheap). Of course, I have a better idea than the average consumer how to choose the product.

Recent breeding efforts have often succeeded in increasing the quality of fruit that makes it to market while also sometimes making the fruit "prettier". One of the most distinguishing features of pluots, for instance, is their ability to develop high brix while still being firm enough to ship great distances and store for several weeks.

[[[[........We are slowly witnessing the same thing with Fuji.......]]]]]

I've considered the Fuji to be a reliable apple from the market. It has (had ) a distinctive flavor, alway edible. Not home raised, but pretty good for supermarket fruit.

For the last two years the Fuji apples from the market have been terrible. The distinctive flavor is gone and the texture has gone down hill.

I bought a honey crisp this year and to my surprise it was quite tart with no flavor. I suspect it had been picked way too early.

The people who market fruit just don't seem to care whether or not the customer is happy. I know a lot of people who say they don't like fruit, and I know that is because their fruit experience has been from the supermarket.

It sure seems to me to be cutting off the nose to spite the face to market a fruit that ships well but tastes awful. That's how you lose customers.

"It sure seems to me to be cutting off the nose to spite the face to market a fruit that ships well but tastes awful. That's how you lose customers."

Agree completely. I've said before, who would develop a business model bragging even though they sold a crappy product, at least they sold it at the lowest price?

It would be the the equivalent of my high school son telling me although he got a poor grade on his test, he was the first one who turned it in.

Not a good model!

The thing is that there are different distributors with different standards. Whole foods and Costco are two sources I know of that sell high quality produce, but if you seek the least expensive source you will often get what you pay for. Also, I suspect, if you live in a relatively unpopulated area that is not near a major population hub the distribution will be spotty- think rural Kansas.

Although I live where there's lots of open land, thanks, in part that it is part of NYC watershed, I'm in the northeast corridor, so we have access to lots of really good produce because produce is shipped here directly from all over the world.

In CA, even in fairly off the pop hub, produce tends to be of pretty good quality judging from what's available around my sisters place just north of Eureka, CA.

Someone mentioned tomatoes with no flavor but, for more money, stores around here tend to sell "vine ripened" tomatoes for a premium price, and while it is a bit of a misnomer they do have some flavor and sugar usually. But the product is more expensive than the cardboard bulk tomatoes that come from Florida and are picked quite green of varieties with insufficient leaf to fruit ratio.

The problem isn't the producers, IMO, it is the consumer. Good food isn't cheap. Some people can't afford to buy quality produce but others just have different priorities.

Although Costco does keep to a higher standard with it's apples, their clamshell packaging ruins the flavor, and IMO, puts more pressure on the environment.

I must admit to being in LOVE with Jazz, and I have been buying them by the bagful from Sam's each week. Last week I bought a clamshell package of Jazz from Costco and, although they were larger than those from Sam's, the skin had a bitter off-taste that I found quite disagreeable.

With regard to what the consumer wants, I find that the more generations we are removed from our rural, agrarian roots, the less we know about how good food should and can taste.

I admit I was appalled at one of my son's refusal to try one of my first plums, saying he didn't like them. Well, of course he didn't like them as he didn't know how good they could be.

I am very grateful to those who participate in this forum for sharing their knowledge of fruit trees. What I've learned here has replaced maybe generations of knowledge building. Thankfully my grandparents did instill in me the love of gardening, along with a little knowledge. Otherwise I would be just as ignorant as the rest of the masses.

None of my 20 odd apple trees has produced yet so I am relegated to buying apples for pie. My local Kroger had Empire, which I had never tried, and I found it an excellent baking apple. In fact it's a good eating apple too. Maybe things are beginning to trend toward more diversity in the local grocery stores finally.