Fruit growers have no particular knowledge of climate and come from a range of political perspectives. This topic has become much more political than scientific in this country, with both sides claiming to have the accurate information and convinced the other side is either working from emotion rather than fact, or private agendas for selfish interest.

The debate here has become pointless to most of us, I believe, as the dead horse lies on the compost pile long since reduced to bones.

I'm personally convinced that nothing significant will be done about it until one or the other side has been proven beyond a shadow of BS that there is an existential threat- probably if most of Florida is under water.

As of November 20th Ice is on Lake Michigan, Huron, and Superior. Now Lake Superior has ice on it for more than half the year.

Gardengal tried to convince me antartic ice is melting as reported by American news organizations which seem to be all about propaganda these days. We don't have real news anymore. I never thought that would happen.
I was told by members here Europe is warming.

I was told hurricanes would rise in number due to global warming. That it is happening.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/temp-and-precip/global-maps.php?imgs%5B%5D=map-blended-mntp&year=2014&month=1

These are blackbody IR data from satellite, so impervious to urban effects.

There are lots of known climatic oscillations, but none with a precisely known frequency that you can say we are getting (or we will soon get) through a trough. And the main solar cycle, 11 years or so, is just a fast oscillation on top of a linear trend. You just posted about crop failures in Europe, due to winters without freezing. I don't see it.

Or, to make the post as quantitative as possible:

- what are the sine waves of concern, what is their typical amplitude, typical frequency, and phase? And what are the data supporting each wave component?

These who agree or disagree with the position are free to join in agreement or opposition. Those who feel it is a waste of their time can just ignore and not participate.

If there is no interest in the subject it will go off the board soon enough. If there are responses that keep it going, those just go to prove interest in the subject and therefore its appropriateness to this forum.

BANNING just makes me queazy in the stomach.

Mike

You guy's south might need a little cooling, but for me, more interest in warming, [want to grow tropical stuff] lol. yes, in the long run we're still warming.

There was a warming period that started in the 8th century and lasted for centuries. European societies advanced in leaps and bounds. In this period the vikings discovered Greenland and started settlements there. When this warming period gave way to the little ice age those viking settlements failed and those people had to leave leave Greenland (there were natives that stayed and did fine). There was a 7 degree difference in average temps between the high of this warming period and the low of the little ice age. Yet despite plenty of written history nothing is said about any change is sea level.

Maybe this is related to the fact that the ice that is melting (in those areas that are in fact melting) is not sitting on land. Floating ice sticks out of the water only due to voids in the ice. You can prove this with a bowl of water and large ice cubes. put the ice on the bowl then fill it to the brim with ice elevated above the brim. No water will spill out as the ice melts.

So when I hear of rising sea levels, I assume the rest is bogus as well.

Please do not be intimidated. Do not allow the intolerant zeal of the GW climate change religionists define us.

Please do not remove your posts just because some otherwise rational people lose it.

Mike

Furthermore, CO2 abundance in the atmosphere is insignificant compared to small solar changes.

Don't get caught up in the weeds that anthropogenic climate change advocates lead us into. They want you to be silent. They want to attach themselves as an earmark onto the federal teat. They will claim that polar bears are dying off when in actuality they are an abundant nuisance.

They want to shut down all our coal power plants. China is building a coal power plant every week. They want to pretend they don't control internal chinese policy. Globalist liars working toward a one world government is what they are.

The issue for us as orchard owners is what plants we will select for the future. That's what makes this discussion relevant to this forum and will be the difference between crop failure and crop success for many.

Drew, I'm not sure about all your ideas, but I definitely applaud you for questioning things.

Is it meant as a put down?

And at whom was it directed?

And to malusmaven... Why did you call whomever it was a troll?

Mike

The Price of Tea in China

The price of tea in china is significant to us here because it is determined a great deal by weather trends in that country which may be associated with weather trends in the U.S.

I'm extremely interested in what fruit growers have to say about this because they are experts in all things associated with growing fruit, especially on the subject of weather.

I can't trust the media and I can't trust the scientists on this issue, because, you know, they are all looking after their own interests and are being undermined by dark forces that seek to enslave every human being in our poor country.

I also would like you to look at this photo of a strange growth on the skin of my forehead. I am trying to diagnose whether it is cancerous and don't trust any of the doctors I've spoken to- they clearly are pursuing their own agendas and would call any growth melanoma if it meant they could operate on it."

Not a thing has been posted here that expands on what was posted a few months ago, including my little satire, that clearly shows where I happen to stand on this issue- the difference is that many of the occasional participants to this forum that used to argue with the posters who are still prevalent on this topic have tired of the debate.

I already knew Drew's opinion on this issue and Swamps and I even suspect Mrs. G.s. No one is being converted to the other side- I've yet to here a single participant say, "that's really a good point, you know. You've really turned me around on this".

So what are you doing it for?

When someone comes here with a question about fruit we can do something positive that doesn't make us angry, or feeling triumphant over enemies we've made angry. Nothing good has come out of these arguments that I can see. There are much better venues for this particular discussion than the Fruit and Orchards forum, IMO.

I don't consider these posters trolls because most of them are regular contributors, who are trying to contribute something meaningful to them on this topic. I'm interested in their thoughts on a topic of interest to me.

I get Hman's satire, but I am interested in possible weather trends as it relates to growing fruit. I guess I can't help it.

It's also true nobody's mind is going to be changed, but that is pretty much true about anything which is at least partly political (or religious). Another example would be the Organic vs. Conventional debate.

There are lots of threads (i.e. most of the threads) on this forum where I don't learn anything, but I still read w/ interest. Maybe I'm weird that way.

I'm a long-term man-made climate change believer, and the debate on this forum hasn't changed my mind. However, I have learned things from folks on this forum that I don't hear other places. Things like polar bears don't seem to be decreasing in numbers, the oceans haven't started to warm yet, etc.

I still think the earth will warm, if only because CO2 is known to be a fairly powerful greenhouse gas. The U.S. surpassed Saudi Arabia earlier this year as the largest producer of crude oil in the world. We produce 11 million barrels/day and import another 7.5 million barrels. 18.5 million barrels/day just for the U.S. On a global scale, the world uses almost 90 million barrels/day. A mind boggling amount.

This has to have an effect on carbon in the atmosphere, as seems to be the case, which should make the world warmer than it otherwise would have been. How sun activity plays a role in the short term is, I suppose, still a question.

I think both sides are passionate because they believe they are fighting injustice. Injustice from the denier's perspective that folks at the top of the climate change debate, really just want to redistribute wealth from rich nations to poor, and are just using climate change as means to advance world socialism. On the other hand, the climate change believer's perspective is that denier's are ignoring (and causing others to ignore) a catastrophic problem which will ultimately cause enormous suffering and possibly make the planet uninhabitable, a serious injustice. From their perspective, deniers would have a lot to answer for.

Still, it takes away from the discussion when either side implies the other is brain-washed, disingenuous, or worse, resort to name calling. I think both sides are just passionate. I agree nothing is gained when people are simply trying to triumph over others they've made angry. Discussions (and discussors) are more credible to me when they are civil, which fortunately has been the case for most of this thread.

I can see the results of this by what customers ask me to do to their trees, although I can't be so sure of the results of posts I've made here on the subject, I'm pretty sure I've provided some useful information.

I do feel certain I've not changed anyone's minds on climate change here or anywhere else. It really just becomes a contest of dueling links and cherry picked data.

Originally I agreed with you- maybe the first couple of times this topic came up, but it comes around every few months and the same contributors pretty much communicate the same things, time after time.

If people want to learn about the science of climate change I don't see how this forum is the appropriate place to come with their questions. But if other members think it is, that's fine. I'm done.

I've been hedging my bets by planting fruit/nut producing plants suitable for 1-2 zones warmer AND colder than my own for 20 years. Some may or may not be suitable. Time will tell.

You should be able to agree that calling for the BANNING of someone from the forum is a bit much and that name calling will change even less minds.

I think Olpea said it right. I object to the suggestion of banning someone (scary intolerance) and name the calling.

Just my 4 cents.

( Also, you know you're not "done" 😀.... Just have some fun. Don't worry, be happy)

Mike

About a year ago, and after finding out what the agenda entailed, Australian voters turned out in droves to reject climate change. Here is an article with abundant links for those interested in what the implementation of this agenda looks like.

Talking about Switzerland, ..on July 5th 1951, town of Niederflachs where Billy [age 14] went to school, he has seen all bad things coming and wrote a letter to all governments...

Billy Meier has seen all the problems at age 14, composed and formulated his letter in accordance with prophetic and predicting statements and explanations which had been presented to him by his fatherly friend Sfath.

Billy” (BEAM), at 14 years of age, already wrote a long letter to those in charge in the world and made 3,000 copies (with the help of his teacher Gustav Lehmann) and sent it to all the governments of Earth as well as to decisive organisations, newspapers, journals and schools, and so forth, without ever receiving an answer to it and without anything being undertaken by those addressed in the letter.

10. To all those in charge in the world, Responsible for the welfare of the Earth and its entire humankind are, first and foremost - in addition to individual people of all nations - the authorities and their appointed governments; and to all those in charge of administration and governments, as well as to every single human being - I want to speak the following words of warning. My fatherly friend, Sfath, instructed me, by means of prohecy and prediction, in many kinds of things which will come about on Earth in the future and will bring unpleasant things.

More in link...

Mess, this is the orchard and fruits forum. This is not the climate debate forum - there are plenty of places for that. Somebody opens a thread like this each week, and there's always a big fight, nobody changes their mind either way, and it just hurts the forum.

It's trolling, pure and simple. There's no purpose, or use other than starting fights.

We can agree to dis-agree.

All I am saying is that I see the reactions as being overly emotional and over the top. Sorry, but suggesting that someone be banned is just too much.

No one is forcing anyone to click and open a thread.

The subject of this thread was very clear from its title and was not some stealth attempt to force someone to engage. No one was forced to click to open and read it. Those interested could interact those who are not did not lose any time or effort.

I don't read every thread. by way of example I am not interested in paw paws or grapes so I don't open it. (no disrespect to those who are).

Mike

At this point it's no different than starting a thread on religious views in this forum. (because that's pretty much what the climate change debate boils down to at this point)

A response of "ok... that's nice" would probably do more to quench the topic than name calling or banning demands.

Now.... don't get me started on that religion stuff and its effects on ... Oops!!,... as Roseann Rosanadana would say... "never mind".
(am I dating myself) :) :)

Mike