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apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

Posted by thecityman none (My Page) on
Fri, Dec 27, 13 at 0:41

I'm absolutely crushed. I bought my parents 3 apple trees for Christmas and even put them out for them on Christmas day. They are planted about 20 yards from several cedar trees. I'm new to fruit trees and only after I had planted them and come back home (hours away) did I learn about the conflict with apple trees and cedar trees. I've done what reading I can on this site by searching old threads, but I've seen some people say they haven't had the problem in spite of having the trees close together. I used a link found on here to a site that listed the trees I planted- Fiji, as being "highly susesptable" to cedar rust. My question is simple....do I have any hope that those apples will ever produce, or should I just tell my dad to cut them down? If there is even a slight chance that they will make it, I want to try, but if you all tell me its almost 100% certain that they will not produce apples that close to cedar trees, I hate for my dad to have to mow around them and weed eat and so on for the next few years for nothing. Just a short sentence or two from some of you would be very very appreciated....cut them down or do they have even a tiny chance of being ok? Thanks all.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

They'll produce apples. You'll just have issues with cedar apple rust (CAR) unless you spray. You'll need to spray something that controls fungus. I suspect Fuji is highly susceptible to many other diseases as well. Did you plant any other variety or just Fuji?

There are many CAR resistant varieties. Liberty, Enterprise, Williams Pride and others are resistant. Just something to consider for future plantings.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about CAR as it's easy to control. Just do a little research on spray options/schedules.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

Only a problem is if you were planning on an organic spray schedule. Forget researching it, For CAR the most you will need to do is include Funginex (myclobuanil) in your oil spray at half inch green to tight cluster and included in the mix of the two insecticide sprays you will need (at a minimum) starting at petal fall and then 10-14 days later.

You will need this many sprays regardless of variety if you are in an area of similar pest pressure as mine in southern NY. CAR is a problem at sites without nearby cedar at all sites most years around here. You just pay more for not spraying some years when cedars are nearby.

Where are you located?


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

cityman - my property is bordered by a line of 50 cedar trees, and I have a good crop of apples every year. Don't be too concerned.

Be a little bit concerned, enough to spray.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

posted twice; deleted

This post was edited by thecityman on Fri, Dec 27, 13 at 16:11


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

I almost couldn't sleep last night from worrying about this problem. I know...its just 3 little apple trees so not a big deal in the scheme of things, but my dad who is 80 yrs old was incredibly excited and happy with his new trees and I feared it was going to be a complete waste of time. my point here to offer VERY sincere thanks to those who took the time to give me at least a little hope! Thank-you so much for responding so quickly and so well. I'm going to call my parents now and tell them they may have to do some spraying (dad is physically active/able to do that even at his age). Thank-you all. Oh...the trees are in middle Tennessee. thanks
kevin


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

H'man:

I think you may have mis-typed.

I looked up Funginex and it is Triforine not Myclobutanil.

Are they both the the same stuff?

Mike


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

Myclobutanil that I use is a brand called Immunox mulitpurpose fungicide by Spectracide. I bought the concentrated one.

H-man recommended this one a while back. I've worked well for me for the past 4 yrs.

I got it from either from Ace hardware of Home Depot.

I believe some types of junipers harbor CAR, too.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

Sorry, brain was not working properly- immunox is the ticket. It is sold as Rally in the form I buy it (commercial agriculture). It's also called Eagle in the form tree care people buy it.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

"Cedar" is the common name for various kinds of trees. When it comes to CAR,an important fungal disease of apple that occurs east of the Rocky Mountains -- it refers to eastern red cedar ( Juniperus virginiana).

So, where does your dad live?
And what kind are your dad's "cedars?"

Here is a link that might be useful: Cornell blurb about CAR


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

I've read arborvitae harbors it as well.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

HArvestman where have you read that?

I am in white cedar woods a lot and have never seen a gall on an arborvitae (northern white cedar).

The bit of searching I did on it a few years ago when planning to plant in some arborvitae along one side of our orchard said it is not an alternate host for CAR.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

Rob, googling around I found sources on both sides of this but the authoritive ones seem be on the side of arborvitae not being a problem.

Not sure where I got my info originally but I searched around when I got pretty bad CAR for the first time at a site where I was spraying for it- not bad enough to hurt the apples but the foliage was pretty ugly. Because this is the first site in about 25 years where this has happened I swallowed the apparent mis-info. The season preceding a huge stand of arborvitae were planted next to this orchard.

I knew that cedar apple rust was actually juniper apple rust but I don't know anything about arborvitae.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

jean001a- Thanks very much for your help and concern. I planted those trees at my dads home which is in middle Tennessee (which of course is east of the Rockies, unfortunately). In terms of what kind of cedar....I don't have a clue even though I saw them. In that area they are all bushy cedar trees that rarely get taller than 30 feet and are usually 10 feet or less. This thread has given me (and my dad) some hope, and I appreciate it. Its also been rewarding to see that it has stimulated some further, related discussions-even though they are a bit over my head! :)


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

Kevin,

The apple trees you planted for your dad are Fuji or Fiji?


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

mamuang- I bought it at home depot, and I'm about 90% sure it is a Fiji, even though I incorrectly stated earlier that it was a Fuji...which I didn't notice until you posted the question. My own limited research tells me that figi is "highly susceptible to CAR, so this may mean the situation is worse than I thought!?! Thanks.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

  • Posted by olpea zone 6 KS (My Page) on
    Sat, Dec 28, 13 at 18:52

I'm probably displaying my ignorance of apples here, but I've never heard of a Fiji or Figi apple, only Fuji.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Fiji/Figi apple. The orient has produced a lot of good quality apples and this is perhaps one I haven't heard of, although I couldn't find anything when I Googled it.

Kevin,

Where did you read of a Fiji/Figi apple as highly sensitive to CAR?

Fuji is generally rated highly sensitive. However, I have one in my backyard and it doesn't show rust symptoms that bad. I don't spray for it and there are lots of junipers close by. We even have a small juniper next to our own house.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

Like Olpea, I've not been able to find any info on Fiji apple, either.

Considering the source, Home Depot, I wonder if it's mislabeled.

I think you could consider two options: Either do nothing this growing season and see how badly it gets CAR or spray it with Immunox like H-man mentioned above.

If you spray 3 times (at half inch green, after petal fall and 14 days later) and the trees still get a lot of CAR, you know you have to spray more the following year.

When I spray, I add sticker in the mix to help the chemical stay on leaves better/longer. The one I use is called Turbo Spreader/Sticker made by Bonide. There are other better products but this one is easy to find in stores.

I'd say let the trees grow and see what will happen.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

If you bought from Home Depot, the odds are probably decent it is none of the above. Their suppliers can't be relied on to be true to label.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

Are all 3 trees the same kind?

If so, you need a different one as a pollinator tree. Se this:
http://www.spokane-county.wsu.edu/spokane/eastside/Fact Sheets/C105 Pollination of Fruit Trees 05.pdf

Here is a link that might be useful: pollinator for apples


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

This is just awful. All of you people have been so kind to try and help me here and I've provided bad information! I've got you all out doing web searches and trying to help me, and I've not even been able to give you accurate information. I just did what I should have done when the question first came up....I called and had my dad go check the label. THEY ARE FUJI apples, not figi. I am soooooo sorry, but it really means a lot that you all are trying to help. It was, however, Fuji that I read was highly susceptible to CAR. The source of that, Olpea, was a university of AR page that I found in an old link here on garden web. Its a really great source, but paints somewhat of a bleak picture. http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publications/PDF/FSA-7538.pdf


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

btw, Jean001a, thanks so much for pointing out the need for a pollinator. While I know very little about fruit trees, one of the few things I have come to understand is the need for pollinators and while the 3 I put out are all the same, I did know I'd be needing a different pollinator. Thanks to your link and previous posts in this thread and others I've read, I have a list of some apples that are reported to be fairly CAR resistant.
Mamuang, thanks for your suggestions as well. I have saved your post and others in this thread because I plan to use them on my own little orchard here at my home. As scary as it may sound with my obviously limited knowledge of growing fruit, I've planted about 40 fruit trees at my house over the last 3 years! :) I have pollinators for them all, and thanks to some of the suggestions here on what to spray, how to spray it, make it stick, etc....I'll be better able to manage my own trees.
Finally, to Harvestman, who I've read countless posts by and am a big fan of, I understand that home depot is not exactly the best source for fruit trees. I'm a little embarrassed to admit that the origin of all this was me finding the trees on sale for $5 there! I hope you aren't all mad to find out that you've been helping me save $15 worth of trees. Its more about the fact that I got them in the ground and my dad wouldn't be able to plant trees himself and was so happy to have them that I was really upset if you all told me it was 100% certain that CAR would cause them to fail. The general consensus here seems to be that its something to worry about and perhaps fight, but there is a good chance I can still get some fruit. That's great news and peace of mind for me and my father. There are lots of good people here who have helped me in this thread, I'm grateful to you all.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

I would find out what kind of cedar you are talking about. Eastern red cedar is prickly to touch, but white cedars are soft. There's no point in any of this if it's not a red cedar anyways, so I think you should find out. Post a picture if you like, and I'd help identify it.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

I just assumed you wrote "Fiji" as a typo, which is why I called them Fuji in my reply :)

For those asking about what type of cedar, it's red cedar. I'm also in middle Tn and we are absolutely surrounded by cedar. It doesn't matter if his apple trees are planted close to cedars or not, they'll still have high CAR exposure. No way to avoid it here, you just have to spray for it (or get resistant varieties). Most of middle Tn has a shallow layer of top soil above limestone bedrock - which appears to be perfect for red cedars.

Also, cityman, I asked about your varieties previously because you will need another type for pollination. Just don't plant Gala. Probably the worst for disease resistance. Actually, most varieties offered by the box stores will be the types most susceptible to diseases. Liberty would be a very good choice. Good luck!


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

So...guess what kind of apple I planted at my own house? Yep...Gala. (along with a few others) No cedar's in sight but you are right, Rob, there are certainly cedars somewhere nearby. So now I gota worry about my own trees as well! Oh well....I'm far more able and willing to spray than my 80 year old dad. BTW...I'm in Robertson County, TN.
Americanchestnut, it sounds like I'm out of luck in that they probably are red cedars. Thanks for trying to help. btw....chestnuts are high on my "to be planted" list so I hope you'll help me decide between American, Chinese, or others when that time comes! thanks all.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

You will almost certainly have to spray for a lot more than CAR to get sound fruit in Tennessee. There are a rather formidable complex of fruit destroying pests in that particular neck of the woods. Here's what I have to do in NY to get useable fruit.

Alan Haigh- The Home Orchard and Nursery Co. alandhaigh@gmail.com

REPRINT PERMISSION FROM ALAN HAIGH REQUIRED

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Low Spray Schedule for Home Orchards in the Northeast

Here's my spray schedule for the scores of orchards I manage around SE NY adapted for home owners managing a few fruit trees. It has functioned well for me for over 2 decades, although J. Beetles and brown rot of stone fruit increases the number of sprays and necessary pesticides some years some sites. Stink bugs are also an increasing problem requiring more subsequent sprays when they appear. Time of spray is based on apple bloom as that is the predominant fruit here but I generally get away with spraying all trees at the time I spray apples.

Please note that pesticide labels must be read before their use and my recommendations do not override the rules on the label. The label is the law. This document only communicates what has worked for me and your results may vary depending on local pest pressure, which may require a different spray schedule.

Dormant oil (this is optional if there were no mites or scale issues the previous season, which is usually the case in home orchards). Do oil spray somewhere between the point where emerging shoots are 1/2" and the flower clusters begin to show a lot of pink. Mix Immunox (myclobutinol) at highest legal rate (listed on label for controlling scab and cedar apple rust on apple trees) with 1 to 2% oil. If it's closer to pink use 1%.

Don't spray again until petal fall when petals have mostly gone from latest flowering varieties and bees have lost interest. Then spray Triazide (Spectracide Once and Done) + Immunox mixed together at highest legal rates. Repeat once in 10 to 14 days.

Where I manage orchards, the space between earliest flowering Japanese plums and latest flowering apples is only 2 weeks or so which usually allows me to wait until the latest flowering trees are ready to begin spraying anything. Plum curculio seems to time its appearance conveniently to the rhythm of the last flowering apple varieties. This may not be true where you are.

If plums or peaches need oil they may need application before apples. I’ve only had mites on European plums here and never need oil for other stone fruit.

All this is based on plum curculio being your primary insect problem which is the case most areas east of the Mis. River. These sprays will also absolutely control scab, CAR and Mildew as well as most of the crop fatal insects. Apple fly maggot is an exception as it tends to merge a couple of weeks after last spray looses affectiveness, but I haven't had much of a problem with this pest in the orchards I manage. This pest can be controlled with a lot of fake apples smeared with tangle trap.

If you don't want to use synthetic chemicals try 4 applications of Surround about a week apart starting at petal fall. You may need to start on earlier flowering varieties as soon as they drop petals because Surround is a repellent and can’t kill eggs after they’ve been inserted into the fruit..

Stone fruit may require the addition of an application or 2 of Indar (Monterey Fungus Fighter is closest available chemical for home growers) starting 4 weeks before first peaches ripen. Apricots must be sprayed sooner if they are scab susceptible with same compound. Some sites that single spray will also prevent serious rot on later ripening varieties on seasons not particularly wet.

Because I manage so many orchards so far apart I have to resort to a spray schedule that is based on expectations rather than actual monitoring. You may be able to reduce insecticide sprays with monitoring but PC can enter an orchard over night and if your insecticide lacks kick-back (as is the case with Triazide), do a lot of damage in a couple of days..

Other problems may occur later in the season and you will in time learn to monitor and react to the pitfalls.


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RE: apple vs cedar tree...any hope?

harvestman...I just wanted you to know that I literally have your above spray plan tacked to the wall of my office from a previous thread where you posted it! Thanks so much for that valuable information. Its a bit frustrating to hear you say I'll have a lot of challenges growing apples here, but hopefully I'll be able to pull it off with the help of you and others who are so kind and helpful on this site. There are actually a fair amount of apple orchards in my area, so it certainly can be done. But I also know of two of them who just cut all their trees down after about 10 years and while I don't know, I suspect it was out of frustration with the challenges you just mentioned. But one last thing that gives me hope is I have one old apple tree on my property that I never did anything to and it actually produced fruit, though I readily admit it was quite ugly fruit! ha. Thanks again for the spray schedule.


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