I should also mention something else I may have been mistaken about concerning fertilization. In a discussion we had about routinely fertilizing orchards with 10-10-10, I expressed doubt that fruit trees responded to P applications in any but extremely deficient soils. Research I found later suggests it may sometimes be beneficial even in soils with a decent amounts of P to apply super-phosphate in moderate amounts- especially with establishing trees.

It still is advisable to make applications based at least partially on soil tests. Many soils contain an excess of P and adding more could be harmful in this situation.

I like to use organic fertilizer or compost in the late fall so that when biological activity resumes in the spring so will the fertilizer. Not dependent on my timing, but on mother nature.
In my garden beds that are clear of plants for the winter I use a lasagna gardening technique. I live in suburbia and room for a compost pile is limited. I don't have one so I throw food scrapes, coffee grounds, etc on top of my beds, then cover with scrape cardboard and compost on top. This takes care of any weed seeds that flew into my garden over the summer.The layers are almost the same as lasagna gardening. Finally I top with double shredded leaves. My garden beds are all in raised beds. Mostly composed of organic material so usually 3 to 6 inches of space develop over the summer as the organic material decomposes. Now they are level again, filled with new organic material. I have been doing this for 3 years and it is working out quite well. It a way for me to recycle some organic material, It slowly breaks down somewhat all winter. It's free fertilizer. The compost gives me something to plant in and below that will feed the plants all summer.
Although I do also supplement with fertilizer. The leaves give me a mulch, remember they are double shredded so do not mat down. By fall no sign of anything but soil, and start the cycle over. I was not sure if this was ok to do, and asked the local extension if I should do anything different. They said no, it's perfectly fine. The technique is almost the same as how you do lasagna gardening in which you prep beds in fall with layers of carbon and nitrogen (brown and green) with cardboard in-between. Compost on top, and you start garden in the spring. Another similar method is straw bale gardening. In which you grow plants in straw bales which feeds them all summer. I heard this works great for tomatoes and peppers.

The problem with depending on organic processes entirely for nitrogen is that our sweet and ever beneficent mother doesn't give the N to the trees at the right time for fruit, in early spring. When natural N release is at its highest it is at the worst time for the fruit.

The difference can become a problem when trees become excessively vegetative from too much rich organic matter applied over the years. At any rate, it does not allow a precise approach for best possible fruit. Now your urine is another matter entirely- the trees can begin drawing its N in just a day or two after application- you can't say that about many natural N sources.

I realize I've stated this many times here, but once more can't hurt.

Harvestman, how do you apply fertilizer? Is it surface broadcast of powder, pellets, or liquid?

I usually use pelletized products easy to spread with a high quality push spreader.

For peach trees that have a wide ring of mulch I usually hit with up to a cup of urea in spring spreading over the mulch during or immediately before rain fall. Or I use sulfur covered urea and spread whenever.

You would think after a few billion years the trees would have figured out when mother nature called them to dinner. I myself am heading away from anything not organic. At first I thought the organic stuff was just mostly hype but recently I saw the light with the connection to the whole ecosystem. it started making a lot of sense to me. The trees were here billions of years, even fruit trees before we started fertilizing them. Mammals were here before the flowering trees, but we both rose to prominence at the same time. Anyway I won't use regular fertilizers on trees anymore, ever. If you feel timing is so important you can use liquid organics. They contain amino acids and plants can absorb whole amino acids. Especially if foliar fed. I cannot urinate enough for all my trees either. I guess i could call the wife and kids out?
It saves the plant from making them. We ourselves need 8 of them we cannot make. I think plants can make them all, but also can absorb many. The idea that they only absorb basic elements is false. Amino acids can be used as protein building blocks or broken down by the plant itself for other uses. And they don't even have to wait a day or two, it is absorbed within hours. I don't mulch my trees with wood chips I use pine straw, so they have no source of rich nitrogen constantly at their feet.
Compost if I use it is a very weak source of nitrogen, most is like 1-1-1 at most.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Thu, Dec 4, 14 at 11:18

Drew, I'm not sure the whole history of evolution is a reasonable basis for fertilizing fruit trees since the trees themselves are not an evolutionary product. Modern fruit trees have lots of large fruit that wouldn't evolve and if they somehow did, could not survive in a natural setting (or would be highly unlikely to).At least, that is, in what we would deem a productive state.

I do however agree that they can be organically fertilized successfully and agree that the timing issue is not all that important provided the right materials are used and used in sufficient quantity. As you pointed out with the compost though, the N levels etc are so low it takes voluminous quantities to achieve recommended N rates.

H'man...you just had to bring up the piss again? Here comes the dog crap fertilizers. Maybe it's why your Goldrush is so good and mine so lousy?

AS, wish the magic wand was responsible, but I have one client with dawn to dusk sun on his 2 Goldrush and the apples are just a tad better than mine most years. Of course, I don't know what he or his sons may be doing in the orchard when I'm not there.

It is possibly a small matter about the need of early N for noncommercial growers, but excessive late N can be a significant liability, even from organic sources. Better fruit comes from weaker soils in the humid region. That's the kind of thing you learn when you manage orchards in everything from near sand to clay loam. Near sand mo better.

Drew, how bout your drug regimen- going organic there too? Gardening is about tricking mother nature to give you the advantages she really doesn't want to give you. She loves all her children equally- her cute little fungus species, those adorable plum curculio, stinkbugs, CM's and the rest. Most of the apple trees she puts out don't have fruit you'd want to eat, even if all her other children left some for you.

Experienced organic fruit growers tend to be humble and not so cocksure theirs is the only way to go, especially in the humid regions.

Drew, how bout your drug regimen- going organic there too?

It's possible no doubt. I'm working on it. My only problem is high blood pressure. it's not that high, but new guidelines these days want you to practically have no blood pressure.
I can't keep it that low very well. But using organic substances can work and is a good idea.
I'm not totally organic, I just think some valid ideas are there. When possible I try to be. but I'm cheap too, and not throwing away perfectly good fertilizer.
I also find what is considered organic and what is not, rather vague and disagree. But some experiments I have seen I find interesting. Like plants communicating with each other and such. Quite amazing. Mycorrhizal fungi form a kind of neural network. It's fascinating. Take 6 bean plants, three in a pot. Use fungi in one pot. Infect one plant with aphids in each pot. In the pot with the Mycorrhizal fungi, all three plants release defensive chemicals. In the other pot, only the infected plant releases the chemicals. Again showing how important it is to not only maintain your plant, but the ecosystem. This experiment is well documented.
We know so little but I think this demonstrates the importance of soil health, not just plant health. If you feed the soil, the soil will feed the plant. The fungi can also distribute nutrients from one plant to the other. What's even more amazing is they seem to feed animals that benefit the plant. The fungi can give viral protection to bees. This has been demonstrated too. A huge nationwide experiment is going on right now where bees are being feed fungal extract to increase immunity. The trial runs were successful, and now the trials are going nationwide.
it appears that this will end honey bee colony collapse.
That the problem was actually caused by the breakdown of the ecosystem. Natural defense the bees normally obtain were being damaged. We will see how it goes. If it works we need to make major changes on how we grow things. So far no doubt the fungi gives immunity, this has been shown in proper controlled experiments. Interesting is that it is that huge fungi that spans acres that gives the best immunity. Farmer Fred's rule number ten Everything we know is wrong! Wow, he nailed that one!

That's good to know, I'll have to train my Rotweiller to go in the apple orchard.

The idea not to apply fall fertilizer on fruit trees probably comes from higher winter damage caused on grasses that were fertilized with nitrogen. The first hard freeze or last freeze of the year is usually what causes winter damage to grasses in the south. If the grass is actively growing it is less winter hardy on the first killing freeze. This happened in about 1988 in Texas when the first killing freeze(or even frost) was the coldest temperature of the year. The lawns that were well taken care of with water and fertilizer had severe winter kill of 90 to 100%. The neglected lawns had about 50% kill.

This does not prove it would be the same in fruit trees. I don't see how applying phosphorous or potassium (if needed) would hurt winter hardiness since both are suppose to increase winter hardiness in grass.

Organic farming sounds good but has one big drawback. It is only about 1/3 as productive per acre and more labor intensive. Modern Ag. changed the population from 50% working on raising food to about 2%, The other 48% were able to do other things like becoming doctors, teachers, scientist, ect..

If you believe in the evolutionary hypothesis of trees being here for billions of years, it would only be applicable to trees that are native to the site. All other trees were designed for a different ecosystem and thus the ecosystem has to be manipulated to sustain or keep in check the introduced species.

Bacteria have been around billions of yrs. Trees not nearly that long but a few hundred million is still a long time. Some of the grasses like corn and sugarcane are only 20 million yrs I believe.

I always thought it was interesting that flowering plants arose when dinosaurs disaappeared. I just wonder if the plant eaters could not adapt to the new plants? Or was it the meteorite, or a combination, a perfect storm. The first living thing on land BTW were fungi, not plants.

HM, your statement that "better fruit comes with weaker soils" flies in the face of about all edible gardening literature you read and is quite an interesting statement. Hopefully that will apply to the red Georgia clay I am working with. I am amazed sometimes anything will grow in the stuff, it seems to offer no nutritional value that would beneficial to fruit trees but everything I have planted seems to be happy and healthy.

There are crops that like strong soils, things like sweetcorn and in fruits maybe the berries. I think what harvestman is saying is that better tasting tree fruit comes from weaker soils. This reduces tree vigor via less water and fertility. That results in higher brix, more flavorful fruit.

Red soil indicates very good soil drainage, ie the iron is highly oxidized, ie rusty. If a very well drained soil holds some water you have the most important ingredients for a good fruit tree soil.

Harvestman might disagree but that's my experience.

I've avoided surface application because my scattered trees are on slopes and the dense packing glacial till is highly resistant to water conduction. Heavy rains would wash most of the fertilizer away and feed weeds elsewhere. Lights rains, however, tend to gradually penetrate the soil after it has been dry.

If I apply the fertilizer in the fall, it would have the best chance of getting that slow permeation. Spring is usually a no-go because we often get surface runoff flooding.

Up to this point I've been applying fertilizer below the surface. I use pipe to drill a shaft in which I apply a quarter cup of all purpose fertilizer. I usually do 2-4 holes per tree per year in spots I haven't drilled before. Tree roots have to find the pocket and build a root structure around it. Obviously there is longer delay between application and tree uptake with this method.

I've been thinking that my peach tree might need more nitrogen. It has sparse foliage when compared to a "normal" peach tree and gets very little new growth. The native soil usually tests extremely low in nitrogen and phosphorus, so I wouldn't doubt that I'm not giving it enough nitrogen. However, I do feel fortunate to even have a peach tree. I don't know anyone else in my area that has a peach tree, due the difficulties of growing them here. On the other hand, everyone has apple trees.

NYRockfarmer, you could try foliage applications of nitrogen. Like Ammonium sulfate, or an organic liquid. Either should work. With an organic you can get in trace minerals too. Kelp is heavy in trace elements and minerals.
I have sprayed with both in the past. I just collected soil to do another test to see where my soil is right now.

Peach trees need more N. than apples and need it throughout the season. I suggest you use mulch and in the future use terracing for your installations. Trees always establish better on steep sites if you pull soil from uphill and deposit down to create a flat or even concave plot. Especially if they are reliant on rain water.

The mulch will hold onto the N- that which the trees don't quickly pick up and also help hold water, which is also a more crucial issue for peaches than apples.

You can always use TBS increments of urea.

I do fertilize trees in fall, but very slow release and try to stimulate root growth. The tender growth needs some time to harden before cold weather comes.

Some fruit plants, wine grapes in particular, do not like rich soil. Rich soil promotes top growth and large berries with too much water. The berries can be large, but not the flavor good for the wines. Similar arguments can be made with other fruit plants.

Even though grape vines respond quickly and effectively with fertilization, but only table grapes should be fertilized, not wine grape vines.

You can always use TBS increments of urea.

I thought you were gonna say pee on it.

I wish there was more conclusive evidence for peaches. The paper seemed to indicate conflicting research regarding late N applications for peaches and how it affects cold tolerance.

It also struck me the amount of N they were using seemed high. I've no experience fertilizing landscape trees, but 3 lbs./1000 sqft. seems like a lot. That's 130 lbs. of N per acre. I can't imagine ever fertilizing peaches that much.

The standard commercial peach fertilizer recommendation is around 55-65 lbs./acre. In my opinion, that could be a bit high. I think labs/universities are geared towards maximizing production.

I find the back and forth over the evolution of fruit trees interesting. Here is my take:

Trees (and everything else) evolve based on passing on genetics. There are lots of factors involved in maximizing passing on genetics.

When we grow trees to produce fruit, we are managing against the best long term genetic interest of the tree in favor of the specific goal of maximizing fruit production. We manipulate nature to benefit ourselves, which in fact is nature, as different species impact one another over time as they each try to maximize their own genetic futures. Some win and some loose and the balance shifts over time.

My point is simple. Trees often adapt in ways that are sub-optimal for one facet of development but it is usually part of strategy that benefits the tree in other ways.

We can argue about the best way to manipulate, but that is usually because we have somewhat different goals.

Anyone interested in fall fertilization and related topics should read the publications of Carl E. Whitcomb.

I would definitely not apply any phosphorus to a soil not shown by recent testing to be deficient.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dr. Carl Whitcomb Horticultural research, innovations, and plant development.

This post was edited by bboy on Sat, Dec 6, 14 at 13:40

"NYRockfarmer, you could try foliage applications of nitrogen." - Drew51

Interesting, I never thought of that before.

"You can always use TBS increments of urea." - harvestman

I guess I didn't think of it before because I didn't want to promote foliage over fruit growth in summer. I didn't know peaches are an exception.

"in the future use terracing for your installations" - harvestman

For some reason I put the stone fruits in the outskirts of my large yard. Trying to keep everything pretty has prevented me from doing a lot typical orchard practices.

The apples along the fields, however, I might change with the backhoe. Previously, I was concerned about disturbing the roots of these old trees. After reading about the positive effects of root pruning, I'm no longer worried about some root damage here and there.

You don't want excessive vegetative vigor, the goal is that sweet point- moderate vigor.

Organic farming sounds good but has one big drawback. It is only about 1/3 as productive per acre and more labor intensive. Modern Ag. changed the population from 50% working on raising food to about 2%, The other 48% were able to do other things like becoming doctors, teachers, scientist, ect..

Or doing other things like drawing welfare while watching TV all day and playing X-Box.

BTW...I agree with everything you said...I just thought I'd point out that not everyone (or maybe even most) done productive things with this new found leisure. Perhaps in the future one could be telling the story of how society collapsed as a result of it.

Well for me with and my yard nothing is really labor intensive. I'm not running a farm. Actually the longer the better. I would much rather be in the garden. I did get a little sick of it this year. Mostly because I got busy and I seemed to be spread thin. Yeah, but Americans are the most productive, and that is what I was doing being productive.
But here I am in the winter thinking grand thoughts of expanding as much as possible!