I realize this is coming a bit late to be useful this year, but we had a discussion on the subject recently and I stood by the idea that fall fertilization was generally safe and that current research debunked the common advice that it can make plants more susceptible to winter injury.

I was wrong, but not by too much, according to this discussion of current research on the subject. Read it and draw your own conclusions.

I actually fertilize many of the orchards I manage with a high K formulation (2K-1N) that provides not more than 2 pounds of K per 1,000 sq. ft. in mid to late Sept. It is extremely doubtful that these rates at this time could endanger the trees I manage to cold injury in my zone, but in Z4, I'm not so sure, although experiments showing reduced winter hardiness involve higher rates of N than this.

I found this going through my bookmarks, so I've had the info there all along.

It still is advisable to make applications based at least partially on soil tests. Many soils contain an excess of P and adding more could be harmful in this situation.

The difference can become a problem when trees become excessively vegetative from too much rich organic matter applied over the years. At any rate, it does not allow a precise approach for best possible fruit. Now your urine is another matter entirely- the trees can begin drawing its N in just a day or two after application- you can't say that about many natural N sources.

I realize I've stated this many times here, but once more can't hurt.

For peach trees that have a wide ring of mulch I usually hit with up to a cup of urea in spring spreading over the mulch during or immediately before rain fall. Or I use sulfur covered urea and spread whenever.

I do however agree that they can be organically fertilized successfully and agree that the timing issue is not all that important provided the right materials are used and used in sufficient quantity. As you pointed out with the compost though, the N levels etc are so low it takes voluminous quantities to achieve recommended N rates.

H'man...you just had to bring up the piss again? Here comes the dog crap fertilizers. Maybe it's why your Goldrush is so good and mine so lousy?

It is possibly a small matter about the need of early N for noncommercial growers, but excessive late N can be a significant liability, even from organic sources. Better fruit comes from weaker soils in the humid region. That's the kind of thing you learn when you manage orchards in everything from near sand to clay loam. Near sand mo better.

Drew, how bout your drug regimen- going organic there too? Gardening is about tricking mother nature to give you the advantages she really doesn't want to give you. She loves all her children equally- her cute little fungus species, those adorable plum curculio, stinkbugs, CM's and the rest. Most of the apple trees she puts out don't have fruit you'd want to eat, even if all her other children left some for you.

Experienced organic fruit growers tend to be humble and not so cocksure theirs is the only way to go, especially in the humid regions.

It's possible no doubt. I'm working on it. My only problem is high blood pressure. it's not that high, but new guidelines these days want you to practically have no blood pressure.
I can't keep it that low very well. But using organic substances can work and is a good idea.
I'm not totally organic, I just think some valid ideas are there. When possible I try to be. but I'm cheap too, and not throwing away perfectly good fertilizer.
I also find what is considered organic and what is not, rather vague and disagree. But some experiments I have seen I find interesting. Like plants communicating with each other and such. Quite amazing. Mycorrhizal fungi form a kind of neural network. It's fascinating. Take 6 bean plants, three in a pot. Use fungi in one pot. Infect one plant with aphids in each pot. In the pot with the Mycorrhizal fungi, all three plants release defensive chemicals. In the other pot, only the infected plant releases the chemicals. Again showing how important it is to not only maintain your plant, but the ecosystem. This experiment is well documented.
We know so little but I think this demonstrates the importance of soil health, not just plant health. If you feed the soil, the soil will feed the plant. The fungi can also distribute nutrients from one plant to the other. What's even more amazing is they seem to feed animals that benefit the plant. The fungi can give viral protection to bees. This has been demonstrated too. A huge nationwide experiment is going on right now where bees are being feed fungal extract to increase immunity. The trial runs were successful, and now the trials are going nationwide.
it appears that this will end honey bee colony collapse.
That the problem was actually caused by the breakdown of the ecosystem. Natural defense the bees normally obtain were being damaged. We will see how it goes. If it works we need to make major changes on how we grow things. So far no doubt the fungi gives immunity, this has been shown in proper controlled experiments. Interesting is that it is that huge fungi that spans acres that gives the best immunity. Farmer Fred's rule number ten Everything we know is wrong! Wow, he nailed that one!

This does not prove it would be the same in fruit trees. I don't see how applying phosphorous or potassium (if needed) would hurt winter hardiness since both are suppose to increase winter hardiness in grass.

Organic farming sounds good but has one big drawback. It is only about 1/3 as productive per acre and more labor intensive. Modern Ag. changed the population from 50% working on raising food to about 2%, The other 48% were able to do other things like becoming doctors, teachers, scientist, ect..

If you believe in the evolutionary hypothesis of trees being here for billions of years, it would only be applicable to trees that are native to the site. All other trees were designed for a different ecosystem and thus the ecosystem has to be manipulated to sustain or keep in check the introduced species.

Red soil indicates very good soil drainage, ie the iron is highly oxidized, ie rusty. If a very well drained soil holds some water you have the most important ingredients for a good fruit tree soil.

Harvestman might disagree but that's my experience.

If I apply the fertilizer in the fall, it would have the best chance of getting that slow permeation. Spring is usually a no-go because we often get surface runoff flooding.

Up to this point I've been applying fertilizer below the surface. I use pipe to drill a shaft in which I apply a quarter cup of all purpose fertilizer. I usually do 2-4 holes per tree per year in spots I haven't drilled before. Tree roots have to find the pocket and build a root structure around it. Obviously there is longer delay between application and tree uptake with this method.

I've been thinking that my peach tree might need more nitrogen. It has sparse foliage when compared to a "normal" peach tree and gets very little new growth. The native soil usually tests extremely low in nitrogen and phosphorus, so I wouldn't doubt that I'm not giving it enough nitrogen. However, I do feel fortunate to even have a peach tree. I don't know anyone else in my area that has a peach tree, due the difficulties of growing them here. On the other hand, everyone has apple trees.

The mulch will hold onto the N- that which the trees don't quickly pick up and also help hold water, which is also a more crucial issue for peaches than apples.

You can always use TBS increments of urea.

Some fruit plants, wine grapes in particular, do not like rich soil. Rich soil promotes top growth and large berries with too much water. The berries can be large, but not the flavor good for the wines. Similar arguments can be made with other fruit plants.

Even though grape vines respond quickly and effectively with fertilization, but only table grapes should be fertilized, not wine grape vines.

I thought you were gonna say pee on it.

It also struck me the amount of N they were using seemed high. I've no experience fertilizing landscape trees, but 3 lbs./1000 sqft. seems like a lot. That's 130 lbs. of N per acre. I can't imagine ever fertilizing peaches that much.

The standard commercial peach fertilizer recommendation is around 55-65 lbs./acre. In my opinion, that could be a bit high. I think labs/universities are geared towards maximizing production.

Trees (and everything else) evolve based on passing on genetics. There are lots of factors involved in maximizing passing on genetics.

When we grow trees to produce fruit, we are managing against the best long term genetic interest of the tree in favor of the specific goal of maximizing fruit production. We manipulate nature to benefit ourselves, which in fact is nature, as different species impact one another over time as they each try to maximize their own genetic futures. Some win and some loose and the balance shifts over time.

My point is simple. Trees often adapt in ways that are sub-optimal for one facet of development but it is usually part of strategy that benefits the tree in other ways.

We can argue about the best way to manipulate, but that is usually because we have somewhat different goals.

I would definitely not apply any phosphorus to a soil not shown by recent testing to be deficient.

Interesting, I never thought of that before.

"You can always use TBS increments of urea." - harvestman

I guess I didn't think of it before because I didn't want to promote foliage over fruit growth in summer. I didn't know peaches are an exception.

"in the future use terracing for your installations" - harvestman

For some reason I put the stone fruits in the outskirts of my large yard. Trying to keep everything pretty has prevented me from doing a lot typical orchard practices.

The apples along the fields, however, I might change with the backhoe. Previously, I was concerned about disturbing the roots of these old trees. After reading about the positive effects of root pruning, I'm no longer worried about some root damage here and there.

Or doing other things like drawing welfare while watching TV all day and playing X-Box.

BTW...I agree with everything you said...I just thought I'd point out that not everyone (or maybe even most) done productive things with this new found leisure. Perhaps in the future one could be telling the story of how society collapsed as a result of it.