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redsun9

Anyone Not Heading First Year Trees?

The traditional way with first year fruit tree whips is to head it at 2' to 3' or so, to introduce scaffold branches. With the new high density planting, some training methods prefer to let the whips grow, not heading at first year. So the trees can fruit about one year sooner at the expense of larger root system.

This is mostly for dwarf rootstock, staked or trellised.

I'm just curious if anyone here grows the trees this way. With no heading, the trees grow higher, not wider. The trees are allowed to grow to about 15' high, like a tall spindle shaped. But the side branches are weaker.

Comments (29)

  • rayrose
    9 years ago

    I find that not heading severely limits the growth of the tree. Why would you want to have earlier fruiting at the expense of a week tree with a week root system and also jeopardize more abundant later fruit production.

  • TurCre
    9 years ago

    I am a little confused. Are you asking about trees on dwarf rootstocks or all rootstocks in general? Are you asking about growing individual dwarf trees or wanting to grow multiple trees in a trellis system?

  • RedSun (Zone 6, NJ)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Commercial folks want the fastest capital return as possible. So they like to plant feathered (branched) trees and want crop the very 2nd year. In traditional way, we buy whips (4-5' tall) and cut off a section of the top growth. This delays harvest by at least a year.

    Read some of the high density fruit tree training if you do not know what I'm talking about. Quite some folks here practice that way.

    Yes, the trees are weaker compared to the traditional way. But the root system catches up the next year and beyond. Also the trees will be fertilized in the optimal way.

    Dwarf rootstocks do not grow strong root systems anyway. The trees can grow to its mature size in 2-3 years. So 6' trees planted first year, grow about 3' each year and can reach 12' the end of 2nd year. One year makes a big difference here.

  • johnthecook
    9 years ago

    I grow the Tall Spindle system in my veg garden firstly because of my space limits. Now that I have had them 4 years I love the easy pruning and height which is about ten feet. My first 5 trees I bought from Homedepot and so they were already at a good size. And the next ones I bought online for more specialty apples I wanted and they were fine and grew very quickly up to ten feet in about three years.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    I rarely top my new trees, although they arrive topped at 5-6' to fit in boxes. Most species do not respond to heavy pruning with more size at the end of the season, and usually the affect is quite the opposite- less you prune the bigger the tree at seasons end.

    Head trees low if you need a low open center shape, Central leader trees do not benefit from this unless there are no potential scaffolds at the point where you want to develop your first tier. If the tree arrives with a good structure of potential permanent branches, only remove branches more than a third to a half the diameter of the trunk at the point where branch is attached.

    Heading limbs of apples and pears increases the time it will take to bring them into productivity and need only be done to stiffen branches or sometimes to encourage secondary branching on naturally lanky varieties. Peaches are another matter and it probably is best to usually cut branches you intend to keep back to a stub when they first arrive from the nursery.

    It is possible that pears are one species that benefits from heavy cutting back because they can really be poor performers in recovery from transplant. I've seen commercial nurseries require that trees be headed or they won't honor their guarantee of pears. I often don't cut them back myself, but it may be more a problem in hot climates with late planted trees. I also get a high percentage of pears that perform terribly the first season, but not to the point where I think it would be beneficial to head all of them back to a couple feet.

    I like a long straight trunk before first branches so that I can install baffling to stop squirrel and coons taking the fruit. Also I often need to grow trees above the deer browse line.

    You are correct that commercial growers more and more desire feathered trees with branches ready to go straight from the nursery. Dwarf trees are very lightly pruned in commercial production systems as it is a race against time to recoup the high investment costs of all those trees and a support system. .

  • RedSun (Zone 6, NJ)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Most of the apple trees are sold as whips, as tall as 5'. So the trees will grow to a tall spindle if not headed? What if the tree keeps growing the whip and not send out scaffolds until very high?

    I think this is fine with dwarf tree since they are supported. How about semi-dwarf apple? The weaker root system, tall spindle with fruits bearing can put heavy weight on the young tree. I'm thinking no heading is mostly for dwarf system?

    In theory, these high density training systems can be used on the traditionally open center fruit trees, like cherry, peach and apricot. You just tie the trees to the trellis and you can let the trees grow taller, spindle, fan or whatever shape you want to call them.

    Heading a 5' whip to 2.5' certainly delays fruiting...

  • Scott F Smith
    9 years ago

    I headed most of my trees at 2-3' to lower the fruiting plane for pedestrian harvest on low, open center trees. But I don't head them low anymore due to deer problems, I need to get them growing out of deer height as soon as I can.

    Scott

    This post was edited by scottfsmith on Sat, Dec 20, 14 at 14:50

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    Whips will branch out without being headed as a general rule.

    Heading peaches doesn't really delay fruiting significantly, since you brought them into the discussion.

    Most of the apple trees in my nursery are on 111 and they usually naturally produce a low tier of branches, especially if they are not growing too crowded together as they often are in my nursery. I wouldn't head them because I was worried about developing scaffolds, With apples you can usually stick a branch where you need it anyway by scoring the trunk above a dormant bud.

  • RedSun (Zone 6, NJ)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I have some new apple whips on 106 rootstock. They have room to grow. But I've not decided on the heading. I just do not know if they will send out low branches if I do not head them. Heading will certainly bring out all the scaffolds. But this delays fruiting.

    The trees are fenced in, so I do not have deer problem. Not sure if rabbits or squirrels will try to get in my fence. But I'm going to paint the trunks, also may put on some protection in lower trunk. Deer really like apple trees.

  • Chris-7b-GA
    9 years ago

    I have planted around 40 dwarf apple trees in the last 2 years that came with little or no branches. Following the advise from the Tall Spindle gurus, I did not head any trees at planting. I also did the scoring or notching just above the buds in the spring to promote branching. Now around 1/4 of the trees do not have a sufficient branch structure - like only 2 or 3 branches. So next month I will be heading these back to around 3 to 4 feet. I not sure if variety type plays a part why some did not branch out well.

    I am still going for the Tall Spindle pruning style but the trees I grafted earlier this spring on G-11 are all whips and will be headed back at planting. I am willing to delay fruiting for a year to be certain I will be getting good branching.

    Chris

  • RedSun (Zone 6, NJ)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    This is something I'm afraid of. I figure the auxin is just too strong.

    I just wonder how nurseries grow young feathered trees. Do they pinch the head in early age?

    If the whips are just 2-3' tall, then we can just pinch off the head. But if it is 5' tall, then we'll have to cut almost 1/2 of the whip.....

    This is why growers buy feathered trees. When you order thousands of trees, large trees won't cost a lot. The nurseries just train the trees for them...

  • gabaduba
    9 years ago

    I've been fretting over this too. I just planted (my first ever) 3 apples from Cummins Nursery on g.41 (liberty, ark black, priscilla), one king david on g.222, one goldrush on g.30, and one williams pride on g.890. All are supported with 10' T-post pounded in 2' about 6-8" from trunk. I've heard 890 does not need support but staked it anyway just in case.

    The g.41s are planted tall spindle on 4ft spacing and g.222 going vertical axis 7 ft spacing at end of tall spindle row. The g.41 are 4-5 ft tall with one to three 3" feather nubs and g.222 is 4-5 ft tall with 5 decent feathers. I will not head these but will use scoring to try to get branches. I am worried about major upward growth with minimal branching like Chris described. Anyone out there tried bending the leader back and forth to induce branches?

    The g.30 and g.890 are planted individually 10 ft apart. They both have at least 5 good feathers. Not sure how I will train these but leaning vertical axis. I've heard goldrush is only average vigor so maybe vert axis will be OK if it will be around m.26 size on g.30. Might try the same on 890 but worried about vigor; I've read this tree will be m.7 size. Perhaps I can keep the vigor down by (1) not heading, (2) bending the leader, (3) pruning as little as possible and (4) using a lot of branch bending at or below horizontal (except for one permanent lower set of scaffolds spread to 60 degrees) to get early fruit and settle these trees. Does this seem like a reasonable plan?

    Another consideration is I am in central AL so these trees could be dead in 5yrs or so. I don't want to prune for traditional central leader and delay fruiting while building a nice strong tree only to have it nuked by fireblight the year after it starts to bear. I painted trunks with 50% mix of water and interior flat white paint with joint compound added, and surrounded with hardware cloth and window screen. I also planted the graft union a bit high (5-6") to impart more dwarfing.

    I really appreciate the gurus on this board. I've learned a ton so far reading this thing, but am probably just scratching the surface. I'd love to hear some more thoughts from others on heading back at planting and different training systems for the home orchard.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    Chris, if you treat all those reluctant branchers the same way you won't learn nothing. If the lower trunk is exposed to sun I expect you will see some filling out this season. Why not leave a couple to see what they will do?

  • rayrose
    9 years ago

    Bowlinball,
    There's no reason for your trees to die in five years nor for you to have fire blight. If you plant FB resistant varieties and stay away from high nitrogen fertilizer, and maintain your trees, you should have no problems. You planted apples not pears, and in Alabama that will be your main problem, but with pears not apples. I'm still a firm believer in heading back all new trees. It's just better for the long term growth and productivity of the tree. Why try to artificially induce laterals, unless the tree for some reason grows without laterals at certain areas of the tree. Sometimes we forget that mother nature doesn't need a whole lot of help.

  • gabaduba
    9 years ago

    Rayrose thanks for the input. I have been reading your posts carefully since you are in SC and perhaps have some similar conditions as mine. You are making me feel a little better about how bad FB will be here in AL. There are a few pears in the neighborhood and I have not seen any FB, but that is a pretty low sample and basically anecdotal type stuff.

    I'm feeling pretty firm on not heading my g.41 and g.222 in the high density row, but I could be convinced to head back the g.30 and g.890 and go for traditional semi-dwarf central leader with annual heading of leader and scaffolds. I'll see if anyone else chimes in. I think I am getting too impatient to taste that goldrush on g.30! I've heard a lot of great things about that variety.

    Not sure what to do about fertilization. The tall spindle literature says fertigate pretty heavy in year 1 to help with the root/top imbalance due to lack of heading back. But I've read a few posts from some of the southern growers that have experienced way more height growth out of dwarfs on tall spindle that expected, maybe due to long growing season compared with up north. I don't want to encourage FB either. Anyway it will be fun having different rootstocks and scions to play with and see how they turn out. I think I'm hooked already.

  • rayrose
    9 years ago

    I hope you like tart acidic fruit, because that is what you're going to get with Gold Rush. I dislike mine so much, I'm top grafting most of the tree.

  • insteng
    9 years ago

    I just planted a dozen trees this weekend. I didn't bother to head back any of them. I haven't done it I any of the trees I planted and they all have been doing great. I now have more than 3 dozen different types.

  • johnthecook
    9 years ago

    I'm eating some of my Gold rush and they already have turned more sweet than tart. And they will continue to sweeten in storage.

  • applenut_gw
    9 years ago

    It is quite common in Europe to head back dwarf trees to 3' the first year in the nursery, and then spray the resulting growth with BA hormone to produce multiple feathers which will bear the next year. The technique is called "knip boom", or "cut tree" in Dutch. You can see an excellent video of the late Koen Carolus doing this at their expansive nursery at http://www.carolustrees.com/en These are actually 3-year old trees, one year rootstock and two year scion growth. As you can probably figure, they're not cheap, but they give the quick return on investment high-density orchards need.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Knip Boom technique

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    "I'm still a firm believer in heading back all new trees. It's just better for the long term growth and productivity of the tree."

    Rayrose, I'm curious about what this statement is based on. From my experience, long term growth and productivity is not at all at stake here. We can debate what will lead to the quickest results, but one or the other method shouldn't have any long term significance, IMO.

    Old timers used to head back trees regularly, but for several decades its recommendation has been mostly about the development of low growing open center trees

    Heading back of trees, in general, to improve growth response after transplant has been widely studied and evidence comprised by Carl Whitcomb and others seems to indicate that heading back trees does not bring about a more vigorous tree. It can appear that way because of the vigorous growth at the point of a stub cut, but when you compare the overall size- less pruned trees will generally be larger.

    The more you prune in terms of heading cuts, the longer it takes for trees to fruit- that is a well established fact, particularly with free standing fruit trees.

    I always take research with a grain of salt and response from untested species might be different as well as the variables as far as soil and weather, but I am curious what comparative observations you've made to bring about your firm belief.

  • RedSun (Zone 6, NJ)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    If nurseries receive large orders from large growers, they can train the trees very early. So they do not have to wait until the trees grow to 5' tall. They can just head the trees just slightly taller than 3'. Chemical hormone certainly helps.

  • gabaduba
    9 years ago

    My g.30, 222, & 890 from cummins all look like they were headed at 30" last spring as one yr whips at the nursery and all have decent but not perfect branching. Seems like a waste to hack it all off especially if it delays fruiting. Anyone have experience with these roots and their time to bearing if unheaded?

  • rayrose
    9 years ago

    Hman, Just about every southern nursery will recommend that you head back the trees they send you.
    This has been my personal experience. I tried an experiment with some plum trees that I got from Johnson's Nursery in Georgia. The ones that I headed
    back grew like gang busters, while the ones that I didn't head back just sat there for a whole year and hardly grew at all. I headed back those trees the next year and they took off. I tried the same thing with some apples that I got from Century Farm Orchards in NC and got the same results.
    The only exception that I've had to this were the Dave Wilson pluots that I got last year from Bay Laurel. But those trees were much bigger to begin with, and were beyond the heading back stage, plus they were on Citation and Myro.
    I don't mind, if it takes an extra year for a tree to fruit, because in most cases you won't get decent fruit from the first two or three crops anyway. I'm more interested in building a strong tree that's going to give me an abundant crop of great fruit every year.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    Rayrose, In truth, only very short and thin whips arrive to me in a state of not being topped, so my anecdotal experience is limited to the trees I receive that are so small they'd fit in the box without topping.

    From my experience with these trees, I would guess your plums would have taken off on the second year topped or not and been the size of the others after the second year.

    However, there is a variable in this, and that is that fruit trees are generally much more precocious than other trees that experiments I mentioned are generally based on. If a tree is putting energy into fruit and/or flowers it is always at the expense of vegetative and root growth. A tree may not even have fruit that is nevertheless expending a great deal of energy producing the flower buds that will bloom the following season.

    I've managed trees that have runted out because they were allowed to fruit heavily early on, and the only treatment is to head back branches and remove spur wood to coax the tree (or at least some of its fine wood) back into a juvenile state.

    I suspect that in the south the longer growing season may change the response of fruit trees in a way that makes heading back more beneficial as a result of the climate there pushing the trees to earlier sexual maturity when not headed back. But that's just a layman's hunch, of course.

    In the U.S., I believe commercial growers of dwarf apple trees no longer head back their trees as a general rule, and these millions of trees are obviously not stunted as a result. But maybe most of these trees are topped by the nurseries for shipping. But feathers are generally left untipped, as I understand it, if they are located well, and left on the tree as they arrive from the nursery. This apparently does not stunt the tree, and instead leads to earlier development of a productive tree that fills its space.

    Here is Cornell's guide to training and pruning apple trees. They do recommend heading first year trees. I believe this is a fairly old text, as I remember reading it many years ago.

    The idea of not heading back apple trees is relatively new and I've only read about it in the context of growing dwarf trees in this country, although I don't head back branches on free standing trees unless branches are too lanky. My trees do grow.

    I was influenced early on by reading that in France growers often don't prune trees at all besides removing oversized branches until the trees begin to fruit in order to speed overall productivity.

    Here is a link that might be useful: training and pruning apple trees

  • RedSun (Zone 6, NJ)
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I think not heading is primarily used within the context of high density dwarf tree training and production.

    The purpose of not heading is to get quicker production. Dwarf trees are trained to grow to its mature size in just several years or less. After the trees are bent down, the trees will FILL IN all available space allowed to grow. So if there were no lower branches over the first couple of years, the trees will fill in the lower space now. I noticed the "fill in" words when I read the training materials. This is important.

    When the trees are tied to trellis, bent down, no room to grow to top and sides, then they try to grow wherever there is not room with sun light.

    But for a "regular" backyard fruit tree, the tree may be trained as a central leader or so. By given room, the tree will grow higher and wider, and has no need to fill in the lower space. So the lower branches may never come out.

    The apple trees I recently received are about 4' tall, all whips. No hint of any lateral growth. But the peach is topped at about 30" and has nice branches. This is from an old TN area nursery.

  • rayrose
    9 years ago

    "From my experience with these trees, I would guess your plums would have taken off on the second year topped or not and been the size of the others after the second year. "

    Your guess would have been wrong, because this has not been my experience, so why waste a whole year.

  • drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a
    9 years ago

    I have a peach tree I headed to start low scaffolds, it only threw one branch. So i develioped that branch into a new central leader, and headed it to form new scaffolds, which it did very nicely. The next year, the extreme winter killed most of the new central leader, and all of the scaffolds.So I headed it back for a third time. What i saw was thicker, stronger trunk and scaffolds each time I headed it back. No doubt heading let's the roots develop, and it produces stronger trunks and scaffolds, which in the long run will be much better for the tree. i will always head trees at some point. I have seen how beneficial it can be. This was a nectaplum, so both a peach and a plum. The current scaffolds are so thick I think it can now survive severe winters. I hope so anyway! Hopefully the third time is a charm! I didn't lose as much ground as you would think too. It was headed this year to the ground and grew 7 feet just this year. This tree is going to be a pain to control, it is super vigorous!

    In conclusion topping is not wasting a year. a stronger more established tree has a much better chance of living longer and in the long term be a much better producing tree.Even if production is lost, I prefer the stronger looking tree. It will hold fruit a lot better with less stress to the plant.

    With apples which are very long lived trees, I would think this would be a good idea too. But you know it's your tree, do what you think best, I'll do the same.

  • alan haigh
    9 years ago

    You guys crack me up. I've grown 100's of plums without topping them over the years and they almost 100% became strong productive trees, some with over 20 years of my involvement. You can head them back and they will become strong productive trees, you can let them grow naturally and then guide them without any stub cuts and they will become strong productive trees.

    I grow my trees in deer country and I need plenty of trunk before first branches so I want them high ASAP, but most untopped trees produce low branches anyway, which I remove eventually- or the deer do.

    If trees are properly cared for after transplanting and transplanted early enough in the season, do it any way you want and the trees will likely respond with strong healthy growth.

    There are many ways to skin a cat.

  • outdoor334
    9 years ago

    I ordered this Kidds Orange Red from cummins this year. I was considering topping it in the spring but my dogs beat me to it! Soon after planting, they chewed off the top 2-3', leaving it only about 1 1/2 feet tall. You all think the tree will be ok or not? I really hate they did this but it's my fault as i did not cage it and Cummins sent the tree with several long orange ties on the bambo stake which attracted the dogs.

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