Bass.

You can grow stone fruits, if you want to. The issue is whether you want to go to the trouble. If I can grow prunus here in the Midwest, you can grow it in the East. As you know, apples have a longer season than most stone fruits. As such, they have a longer spray schedule. So, if your willing to grow apples, you can grow peaches.

Here, about every 4th house has unmanaged fruit trees. We also get lots of rain through the growing season, with high temps and high humidity. I can't imagine a much more difficult climate for stone fruits, than mine. So, you may not have to spray as much as me.

I follow most commercial spray guides, which basically is a spray every two weeks, or an inch of rain, whichever comes first. It's not a big deal to add a fungicide in the spray mix. Again, you may be able to get by with less, but there is a program that will work for you, if you're willing to use synthetics.

Thanks for the encouragement,
Harvestman, you've got email. i would like to see the schedule and the product you use. I will give it one more year.

Bass

I almost gave up when I had a combo of voracious squirrels and horrible brown rot two years ago. But I redoubled my efforts and got a decent crop last summer.

Alan, I'd be interested in your schedule as well, please consider posting it here.

Scott

Bonsai, I thought about you this morning as I sprayed my orchard with six gallons of fungicide. I wasn't really looking forward to it, but from material assembly to clean up only took about an hour and a half for about 50 trees, mostly young semi-dwarf and dwarf. I'll have to spray again a number of times next year, but the potential outcome will be bushel upon bushel of the lushest fruit known to mankind. With steadfastness and good fortune, I'll be crunching down on Mammoth Black Twig apples and sucking holy nectar from Belle of Georgia peaches. In my value set, this makes me really, really rich. Stay on board with the rest of us. Misterbaby.

Mr. Baby: was that spray copper and oil?

Michael

Michael, it was copper and Immunox. Misterbaby.

Bonsai- your real problem is that you're all-in on a high risk bet. Diversify and place some low risk, high return bets.

First Spray. April 12 Â April 20. Horticultural Oil is combined with the fungicide Myclobutanil (Eagle, Immunox etc). The oil smothers mites and scale and the fungicide controls scab and cedar apple rust on apples. This is actually timed from when apples are at half inch green to tight cluster.

Second Spray. May 8- May 18. The fungicides Myclobutanil and Captan are combined with the insecticide Imidan. The fungicides are for previously mentioned pests and the Imidan is to control several extremely destructive apple pests including plum curculio and coddling moth. This is actually when the last flowering apples have just dropped their petals and no longer have bee activity around them. The date is just a guideline for zone 6.

Third Spray. May 18- June 2. Same materials as second spray except Myclobutinil is only used on apples. 10 to 14 dayst after second spray, once again the date is just a guidline.

That's my basic spray for apples. For stone fruit you can skip the first spray unless you're growing Euro plums, in which case you may need to control mites or scale with oil.

To control brown rot on stone fruit, particularly anything ripening after July, you may need to use a fungicide like Indar or Orbit (Monterey Fungus Fighter). First spray here must be applied about (not later) the 15th of July. If it is rainy another spray will be necessary in 14 days and that is often all it takes, even for late August and Sept ripening plums and peaches. However,if you start to see signs of brown rot later in the season you will need another round. These compounds can rescue stonefruit even after some rot has begun.

Imidan can be hard to come by if it is restricted in your state. It is also difficult to use for small batches (1 TBS per Gallon and you better wear coveralls rubber globes and a dust mask while measuring.) There is a widely available Ortho product that is a synthetic pyrethrin which is highly touted by several who participate in this forum. Maybe someone else can supply the name. You can sub. the Imidan with this. Cornell suggests that synthetic pyrethrins can cause mite flare ups so you may have to deal with that.

If you aren't spraying apples you don't need the myclobutanil.

Thanks Mr. Baby: I notice you are a great deal further south than I but, what's the Immunox for this time of year?

Michael

Michael, in these parts disease suppression is much more of a year round activity than it is up north. Immunox is used against shothole for peaches (whose leaves are just now dropping), and against scab for apples (some of whom think it is still July). These methods would not be indicated for your area. Stone fruits are difficult to grow around here--Japanese plums are reserved for the suicidal. Misterbaby.

Yes, pest control is very regional. Bass is fairly close to me so I think he can manage with as few a sprays a I do. The schedule is based around apples which are 90 percent of my business but the pleasure of tree ripe peaches are almost as important for me holding on to my customers. In other words, customers with apples and peaches are at least as concerned about their peach crops even though managing them represents less work for me because trees tend to be much smaller.

Even near me, some people need to control apple fly maggot to get an apple harvest which requires extending the insecticide coverage for another 2 sprays into the end of June.

If you aren't spraying apples then you can arrange my schedule around your peaches and spray when the bees first loose interest in their flowers. I haven't needed to control any pests on peaches that are suppressed by oil.

Peach leaf curl is not generally a problem if you plant the right varieties, prune them open and grow them in sites with adequate sun. Chlorothalonil (Bravo, Echo) applied just before bud break will usually suppress it if it becomes a problem.

It is just as important to use the best compounds as it is taking into consideration the length of your season of pest pressure. Indar and Orbit are 3 times as affective as any other fungicides you can find with the exception of Pristine, I guess.

I use Imidan because it sticks through rain exceptionally well and continues to control insects for 10 days. Once every 14 days usually does the trick although I can still loose a lot of Euro plums to PC at my site. Other sites haven't had as much pressure. If you tighten the shedule to once every 7 to 10 days you can get decent results with Sevin, although it will knock off some apples.

I am considering switching from Imidan to a pyrethroid at a few sites although they are hell on mite predators and who knows what other beneficials.

Harvestman, howzabout bacterial spot? It's just horrible down here in this atmospheric petri dish. Also, you didn't mention borers. Misterbaby.

Hi Bass,

If you want to try some Surround, I have a 25 lb bag and I'd be happy to share some with you. I'm in Upper Macungie. I never used it last year on my cherry tree to help with Japanese Beetles. I zip-lock bagged my apples to great success and my peach + asian pear trees are too young to fruit. Send me an email if you're interested.

Mrbabe, I use Lorsban for borers, but I don't know if it's available in the small quantities required for home orchards. It's restricted in some states but probably not in southern "red" states. I spray once a year after harvest- at least my very young trees right at the soil line. I don't have a big problem with other borers (dogwood, etc) that attack above that but use the same compound when I see damage.

I recommend that home growers tape nylon screen around the base of their peach trees pushing away soil to go as low as possible. Use rubber electric tape (stretchy and doesn't girdle). It seems to do the trick.

I choose varieties of peach less susceptable to BLS and have never had an issue with it here. There are virtues to a shorter season. We also only get one generation of plum curculio and oriental fruit moth mostly just go after growing peach shoots and not fruit. It is not rare to get peaches, especially early ones, with no spray at all here although on my site I'm not so lucky.

Okay, Hman, no BLS but can you grow watermelons? Loupes? Dews?

It absolutely, positively would never have occurred to me to fence out the borers. Right now I'm making hardware cloth screens to exclude the natives from all my small trees. I truly dislike this project. Misterbaby.

foil works for meadow voles and rabits- screw the hardware cloth

Thanks, Hman. Are you affiliated with Martha Stewart or Heloise or anybody like that? This is great info. Misterbaby.

Mr. Baby,

I've never heard of spraying for scab this late. Most of the time the objective is to protect against primary sporulation. If unsuccessful, summer sprays are recommended for secondary sporulation to protect fruit. Since the fungus overwinters in fallen leaves, what would be the goal in spraying this late?

Always been surprised Hman can get by with such a short spray schedule on apples. Not doubting it, just a bit mystified. The online trade, Scaffolds (Cornell) talks a lot about 2nd generation CM and generally recommends spraying for it. It surprises me it's not in Hman's locale. We certainly have it here.

Thanks for the info, olpea. My apple trees are still mostly in leaf, so it seemed like a worthwhile endeavor, particularly since I was already in the orchard treating the peach trees. The disease pressure here is relentless. Misterbaby.

Cornell is making recommendations for commercial production where an occassional CM strike can't be tolerated. Adequate control in smaller orchards for home use always seems to require much less than Cornell suggests, partially, I suspect, because much fewer trees brings fewer pests and obviously home growers don't need perfection. I don't really care if CM gets 20% of my apples. They don't even destroy the apples they enter, except for long storage.

I tried to get help from Cornell when I started my business, and although their information can be extremely helpful they do absolutely no research on home production type agriculture. I was astounded at how little their gurus knew about this kind of production.

I love the ag U's for relatively objective information that is science based but when the research is being done in a much different context you have to find your own way by a certain amount of trial and error. At least now you can scan the internet and get some anecdotal advice from people who aren't trying to sell you anything. I don't expect anyone to rely on my advice, just to try it out if they want to. If my approach didn't work in my area, I wouldn't be making my living.

Around here 2nd generation CM gets 70% of unsprayed pears and about 100% of unsprayed apples. Just goes to show pest control is indeed very regional.

How long is the growth period of the coddling moth worm? I've understood that there are 2-3 generations a year, and I've never found any sign of apples being infested early in the year. No frass at the blossom end, no sign of holes in the apple. But then come the end of July-early August, BAM! The apples bloom with holes and frass at the blossom end. Are these worms entering shortly after bloom and growing for the next 2 months inside the apple, or are they coming from a later generation, maybe in July? It just makes me wonder if the generation of adults laying eggs just after bloom is relatively small and the infested apples fall in June, appearing to be part of the June drop, then a much more numerous second generation hatches to cause all the problems? So, Harvestman, is your spray schedule all that is necessary since there is only one generation a year in northern areas and any worms missed grow the rest of the summer, or is it highly effective and eliminating the potential for a 2nd generation?

I have not studied this issue yet because CM hasn't been an "economic" factor for me. Many of the orchards I manage have no noticable CM damage at all although they may have over an acre of trees and recieve only the 2 spring insecticide applications.

I observe my own orchard most closely, of course, and it has the most CM damage of any site I manage. My Asian pears were damaged enough (close to 30%) that if I really cared about their fruit I might look into protecting them better and therefore figuring out which generation is doing the damage. My guess is that it is second generation but because the timing of my ap revolves around apples it's possible that fruitletts are infested before first spray in mid-May. The Asians pears drop their petals over a week before my later apples so may be vulnerable when unprotected.

One reason I can get away with fewer sprays here is that fruiting species and varieties all bloom within a much closer time frame than is the case further south.

There is one small commercial orchard where I do some consultation and all the pruning for. I don't lay out the spray schedule for this orchard although I've recommended the materials the owner uses. I intend to ask him about his CM control issues because he sells his apples and needs to get pretty good control. He may not get back to me for a while (he makes his real money in advertising) but I'll get back to you if he has anything intersting to say.

Universities have done a lot of research on CM to develop timing models. It's fairly easy research to do because Univ. extensions in apple states regularly monitor CM traps and temperatures, so it's easy to develop degree day models. I've tried to find one of the nifty graphs on-line, but I can't seem to locate a good one. However, Beeone, since you're in zone 4, you're almost certainly dealing with 1st generation. There is a good graph in my Michigan spray guide and it shows 1st peak moth flight about the 3rd week of May with peak larvae about a month later (these are bell shaped curves of course, so there are some flights/egg laying before and after peaks). Second generation moth flight doesn't peak until late July, with peak larvae starting the second week in Sept. Since you are in zone 4, it's conceivable you could push the dates of 1st moth flight back by about a month. You probably don't have a second generation. Around here the Michigan chart seems to match up pretty well. I notice larva from the second generation around the end of Aug. or beginning of Sept. I would assume since Hman is also in the same zone as me, moth flights would be similar in both locales, but evidently it's just not much of a problem there.

I have read that good control of 1st generation can minimize problems of second generation, as you point out (sort of like scab). I suppose it depends on the insect/CM load of the surrounding area.

Olpea, I think it may even be more complicated than that. If you are growing fruit close to where commercial growing is being done, especially in areas where there are a significant amount of abandoned orchards, both pest resistance and overall numbers of pests may be much much greater. I'd love to see some research on that.

Anecdotally I have observed that trees I manage closer to commercial production are under much more pressure than home orchards that have significant forest buffers between those home orchards and the nearest large stands of fruit trees.

If you are reasonably close to commercial orchards that have populations of CM that have developed some resistance to organophosphates for instance, your spray program is going to be more complicated than if your CM's don't come from these resistant populations. So close proximity to commercial production may be a double whammy for the home grower by creating both higher numbers and more chemical resistant pests.

Thank you for clarifying the issue of CM generations, by the way.

That's a good point. I wondered before how far away one has to be from a CM hot pocket (like a commercial orchard) to avoid that additional pest pressure. I've seen different figures on how far the moths can fly, but I wonder if anybody really knows. It seems to me it would be hard to experimentally determine the "working range" of CM. I suppose the experiences of individual backyard growers, or small orchard managers like yourself, might be the best benchmarks.

You could set up traps at different distances from very large commercial orchards and maybe get some pretty suggestive data. I think it would be real hard to test the resistance issue, however. I believe Cornell is only mandated to do research for commercial production issues but it could still have some use in that context as far as the clustering of commercial orchards (i.e. monoculture).

Out here there are usually a lot of abandoned orchards close to orchards still in production so it may be the worst situation possible to try to go low-spray nearby. I'm glad most of my business is one or two counties down from major Hudson Valley producers.

"You could set up traps at different distances from very large commercial orchards and maybe get some pretty suggestive data."

Building on that idea, I suppose researchers could also test resistance of the moths caught in the traps. I've read they test resistance by simply spraying the moths with the insecticide in question (if it's a contact insecticide) and see if they live.

There's a commercial apple guy about 40 miles east of me who was telling me he sprays Guthion and Warrior, at the same time, for CM. I was pretty shocked and asked him why he did it. He said he can't control CM unless he takes a scorched earth approach. That sounds like resistance to me. I know CM can't fly 40 miles, but it's still a little too close for comfort.

Yeah, and to what degree is resistance passed on to offspring and how far does the offspring fly before depositing eggs that fly how far and so on. I'm actually surprised this hasn't been specifically researched. The dynamics of the spread of resistant pest populations.

I had thought the moths would be dead after a short time being trapped- I was thinking of those stickum traps. I've never used live traps.

That's a good point. Maybe the dynamics of res. populations have been studied. Still there have to be a lot of variables that would be difficult to isolate. For example, I remember reading somewhere that Bt res. earworm moths actually have lower survival if the Bt is not present. In other words, the resistant larvae actually have higher survival rates when the Bt gene is present (in corn). Things like that, and other variables (amount of host trees in the area, climate, how many generations/year, etc.) would be hard to isolate, I'd think. Still, maybe there's some info out there.

Every now and then, in one of the trade newsletters, I'll read about CM resistance confirmed by researchers at some orchard. I had assumed they had some live trap to catch them (although I've never seen one) but maybe they have some other method of catching them. Butterfly net?

Now that I think about it, they probably just grow the larva out to adulthood, and then experiment on the adults.

Hman, Can you think of anything besides Lorsban for borers? Dont know if I can buy it.

Harvestman, what about Lime-Sulfur? I've been spraying that in the off-season to control Peach Leaf Curl and (I thought) Peach scab. I see you only do Oil in the dormant season. I don't think I have any mites or scale.

If I followed your schedule but did Lime-Sulfur in the spring, would that be OK?

Bass,
I gave up on 'em years ago - I'm not a huge stonfruit fan from the outset - only planted them 'cause my wife wanted 'em - and the few times they cropped decently, the fruit all just dropped to the ground and rotted.
They are definitely not worth the space or trouble IMO. Still a few decrepit peaches & plums out there in the orchard, but I think I'll actually yank them out and put something worthwhile in those spots this spring.
Only Prunus that's been worth the space it's occupied in my orchard have been the little native Chickasaw plums I rescued from the cow pasture and the 'Guthrie' selection I've grafted into some of them.

W. KY aint PA. But anyone who is not a stonefruit fan probably is not the best person to ask for advice on growing it.

I have no use for lime sulfor but see no reason you couldn't include it in your schedule. I doubt it will have a whole lot of affect controlling peach leaf curl but I wouldn't know from direct experience.

For borers I don't know what else will work besides Lorsban and a physical barrier from my own experience but Rutgers advises spreading moth balls at the base of peach trees and then covering loosely with soil. I forget the timing they recommend. I have heard this advice elsewhere and something about having to use the right kind of moth balls.

Ill give one postive vote for lime sulphur for Leaf Curl. I hade some really bad PLC on my 2 peach trees when I bought my house. Next winter sprayed it pretty good and took pretty good care of it. Did it again the next winter and this year I had very small amounts of PLC, just a few leaves. Maybe ill have to find someone with their license to buy some Lorsban because I think I have borers.

Lime sulfur is a general fungicide with some mild insecticidal activity. It is generally not considered a strong fungicide, but it is rated with some activity against PLC. There are stronger fungicides available to homeowners (copper, chlorothalinil) but if lime sulfur is doing the trick for you, then go with it.

It's unclear to me what kind of borers you're dealing with. Both dogwood borers and peach borers have been mentioned. Lorsban is a nationally restricted-use pesticide, as far as I know. A good pyrethroid sprayed on the trucks during borer season should do the same thing. Something like Triazicide-Once and Done. Carbaryl (liquid Sevin) applied on the trucks should also be pretty hard on borers. The disadvantage of carbaryl is that it must be applied more frequently. Don't forget about the moth balls. Some people swear by them.

Upstate we get many Apple borers probably because there are so many abandoned Apple trees. Disease and bugs are many with apples too. PVC drain pipe cut and slipped over the bottom trunk has been working as a remedy. Usually when there are borers there is another fungal disease that attracts/allows them. I am pretty sure the Antonovka rootstock that resist crown rot saves those trees from borers.

For Peach Leaf curl and brown rot I dormant spray Kocide 3000 mixed with Nufilm-17(pine resin sticker). The bark gets green tinged for a month or so. Anybody that has neglected spraying should catch up by dormant spraying starting just at bud swell.

What is the advantage of Kocide over chorothalonil (Bravo)? I'm not much concerned with residue when all I'm spraying is wood. My point is to get them most bang for the buck with every spray I make. I'm not saying there isn't a good reason to prefer Kocide I'd just like to know it.

Copper is the standard treatment for bacterial spot which is the main reason why I do dormant copper on my stone fruit. That disease can be really horrible here. My guess is people prefer copper because it stays on so long; all the states around here recommend copper copper and more copper for bacterial spot. Chlorothalonil can be sprayed further into the peach growing season than copper so that is its main advantage for bacterial spot treatment. I do dormant copper on apples for fireblight.

Scott

Harvest, I am with you. I should add, I did dormant spray Kocide/Nufilm-17 on the whole orchard at leaf fall in late November. Stays on a long time.

Peach scab is the only problem I have left to get 95% perfect peaches after thinning. I get slight shothole on the leaves of some of the california bred stone fruits.(pluots,plums)

Now, what I have learned is peach scab lives inside the young bark and sporulates in the beginning of the growing season.(Cornell) That is why copper doesn't get the peach scab.

The label gives me this Chlorothalonil spray schedule for Peach scab;
1. buds show color
2. full bloom
3. Petal fall
4. fruit formation

This is a tight schedule and I hope to break the disease cycle and do just a couple chlorothalonil sprays in following years.

I have found Indar completely affective at controlling scab without the help of any other fungicide. How many aps depends on how late the peach and how wet the weather.

Harrow Diamond will be scab and rot clean without any fungicide most years while Red Haven may or may not need 1 to 2 applications for pristine fruit (starting about July 10). Then it's just a single spray every 2 weeks, unless it doesn't rain. Most of my customers don't need pristine fruit so we get by with fewer sprays than this.

I've never had an issue with bacterial leaf spot, but as I said, I try to grow mostly resistant varieties.

Harvest, Thanks but the Indar/ fenbuconazole is $275 a gallon. I am going to stick with trying the chlorothalonil on the scab. All my peach trees are touching in a row and they all have some PS. PS over winters in one year old twigs so there is hope I can knock it out altogether.

Here is a link that might be useful: Peach scab

The Indar I buy is much less than that as a powder- I didn't even know it came as a liquid. Google Crop Production Systems, they might have an outlet in LI. Cost about $130 for a lifetime supply.

Orbit is supposed to be almost the equivalent and you can buy that as Monerey Fungus Killer in home orchard type quantities. Probably under $30. The thing is that these materials are systemic and if you need to control brown rot anyway they are much better than Bravo for that.

Scottfsmith, you may wish to consider weekly(3) applications of antibiotics at petal fall as an additional measure against bacterial spot. I'm going to do that this year, plus "goose" the trees with extra nitrogen at bud swell to assure to lushest foliage possible. Misterbaby.

Cornell recommends Indar for Peach Scab and also Clorothalonil is on the list. I will use Clorothalonil for 3 sprays after bud break up to fruit formation. Then I will rely on Propiconasole, Monterry fungi fighter, unless I get the Indar. We got a Crop Production Systems 10 miles away. I'll call them tomorrow if they are in.

Ace, to be honest, I don't have experience using chlorathalonil (hate those chemical names, can't remember spelling) except for the control of peach leaf curl and black knot on plums. Indar was the first fungicide I used because the research I looked at showed it and Orbit to be by far the most affective controls of brown rot. Once I got a handle on BR the scab was also well enough controlled in the same process.

As you know, the older materials do tend to be much cheaper (you should check what they charge for Esteem!) and the best ones sometimes aren't packaged for home use.

Don't expect CPS to carry Monterey Fungus Killer. That packaging isn't for commercial production but I hear you can easily find it on the internet. I hope I have the name right and it isn't Montery Fungus Fighter. It is the same material as Orbit.

Harvest, I used Fungi Fighter upstate last season. We don't have peaches up there but when we go to the county fair we bring a bushel of tree ripe peaches and give some to the farmers. I was under the impression Immunox was tougher than Propiconasole so I used it on my home orchard peaches but it had no effect on PS. PS is unusual because it overwinters inside 1 year old twigs. Years ago I saw the infections on the twigs. Now I know. I ordered a quart of Fungi fighter from Jungs just now. Its about $35 a quart delivered.

Brown rot can overwinter on the wood also, but if you control the rot on the fruit you also control the rot on the wood. My guess it the same thing happens with scab, with the fungus jumping from fruit to wood. After all the small bearing wood is replaced every year.

Bass,
I feel your pain, although it hasn't been quite as bad for me in the Northwest as for you in PA. Apricots and apricot hybrids have been very disappointing. We've done OK with sweet cherries, and starting a sour cherry now a year old.

Maybe try a grape arbor? It doesn't take a lot of vines to have more than you can eat. Some great NY State varieties should do well in PA, I would think, like Interlaken. Price is good (seeded), and so is Venus (seedless) but there are many more.

Maybe a mulberry tree? This year I'm going to try the "Illinois Everbearing" variety, and keep it small so I can keep a net over it (birds love mulberries).

Have you tried a pear or Asian Pear? DIfferent class of plums (Asian instead of European) just to see what happens? Probably the same insect problems, however.

Good luck. Maybe it's time to put in a field of rhubarb and asparagus.