If your bacterial spot, canker and curl were low this year the fall spray can be skipped. I have not used fall copper for the last two years. I always do a spring copper at bud swell. If you did have issues this year I would hit things this weekend. Make sure to include lots of sticker so the copper stays on through rains.

Scott

Mrs. G,
A few peach and plum trees dropped leaves very late this year in addtion to frequent wet, windy or freezing weather. So, I just sprayed Kocide this past Sunday, 3 days ago.

At the time, snow was on the ground but the temp was about 31-32 F. I don't like going out spraying when temp is under 30 F. I'm a wimp.

I use NuFilm 17 this year. It may appear far more expensive than Bonide Turbo. If compared by volume, I think it's a lot cheaper. The liquid is thicker. I hope it helps the copper stick better and longer than the Bonide sticker.

I have to buy some copper, I'm out so i sprayed Lime-Sulfur a few days ago with dormant oil. I'll have it before the spring.

Ok, thanks all. Mamuang I forgot that I have a 5lb. bag of Kocide 3000, I'll mix it up with a sticker for sure. Its supposed to be in the forties here. No snow yet. thank goodness, I can wait!!!! Thanks all again!

mamuang, thanks four the sticker recommendation. Looking at it it looks awesome. Certainly top rate. I will be adding that for sure, thanks again!

I also swear by Nufilm 17. I use a large dose with dormant copper and still see the blue copper on the trees a month later. You can use a lot more sticker in the winter since there is no issue of phytotoxicity of the leaves to the sticker. I don't measure exactly anymore but its probably about about 1tbsp per gallon for dormant spraying.

Scott

The credit goes to Scott since he is the one who gave me the info about Nufilm 17.

Scott - I should have thought of adding more sticker for spraying this time of the year. Will do it next year. Thanks.

Interesting product made out of pine. Reminds me of the pine tar baseball players use. It repels water. I can see how it would last a long time. Anti-desiccant is also made out of pine, talk about a sticker, it should last all winter, but you are not supposed to add anything to it. As it seals the tree. Tree must be well hydrated. I'm going to try it for blackberry canes.

I started using Nufilm 17 last summer. I asked my chem supplier if it was really all that much better. He told me it's the real deal (i.e. it really does protect against thermal breakdown and wash off).

I notice the sticker itself has a 30 day PHI. First time I've seen that with a sticker.

Olpea...could the PHI on the sticker just be about encapsulating the spray material and not so much the sticker itself? If it is, I guess it is some indication of it's effectiveness. Olpea do you feel a sticker is advantageous when combining with oil? Wouldn't the oil act as a "sticker" in and of itself?

Drew: I'm wanting to get some Volk oil and Copper Sulfate on my trees. I have two apples though that still haven't lost more than a few leaves. I would like to add sulfur but there are so many opinions on it. Some say never mix sulfur with oil, some say yes...do it, some say yes ...do it, but only when dormant, some say lime-sulfur ok, but seem to imply pure sulfur is a no-no. What gives? I want to mix Volk oil, Sulfur, and Copper Sulfate. Any issue with that from your perspective?
I cannot see any issue with such a mixture as a dormant spray...do you?

I have seen the conflicting messages. Yes only when dormant with oil. See link. See this store has a link to the lime-sulfur label. Go to label instructions, see combination winter spray. So I just followed label directions.
If trees are not dormant all foliage will fall off, so that is why you see those warnings.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lime-Sulfur

Scott, we've been through this discussion of spreader-stickers before and the newer Latex based products seem to be clearly superior to the terpentine products such as NuFilm, unless you are attempting organic production. If a home grower is going to buy a lifetime supply of SS maybe they should consider purchasing Tactic for around the same price per gallon jug.

I used to use NuFilm and hate it for its messiness. Tactic costs a lot more per ap (because it requires more volume per gallon) but commercial growers in the Hudson Valley seem to be running with Tactic because when it rains after spraying you are buying better insurance.

Here is a link that might be useful: spreader-sticker discussion

Hman,

I remembered the discussion about Tactic vs. Nufilm, but last year I had a hard time finding Tactic around here, so I went w/ the Nufilm.

I was going to order a case of Nufilm for next year, but re-reading our old discussion does make Tactic sound like the superior choice.

I will say my experience w/ Nufilm is that it seems very sticky, but our previous discussion seems to point to the superiority of Tactic.

One thing that nags me (quite a bit) is that Nufilm has a PHI which is apparently due to it's supposed extending capabilities. In other words, the PHI is not for the sticker itself but because it's supposed to extend the life of the pesticide it's protecting.

Obviously, in most cases, chemical companies try to get the shortest PHI approval on their label. I don't understand why NuFilm would have a 30 PHI, while Tactic has 0 PHI.

I know enough about pesticide registration that the companies themselves would have had to do a lot of their own documented research during the labeling process.

"Olpea...could the PHI on the sticker just be about encapsulating the spray material and not so much the sticker itself? If it is, I guess it is some indication of it's effectiveness. Olpea do you feel a sticker is advantageous when combining with oil? Wouldn't the oil act as a "sticker" in and of itself?"

Apple,

The 30 day PHI is not about the sticker itself. According to the label, Nufilm can be used up to day of harvest if used with pesticides which have a 0 PHI. This tells me, the EPA has no problem w/ folks eating NuFilm, but that they are worried the pesticides sprayed along w/ NuFilm won't degrade on the crop according to predicted rates.

I wouldn't use a sticker w/ oil. Some labels don't recommend it. I've used oil w/ other pesticides, and it does seem like it provides some wash-off protection, although I've not read any studies on it. Oils also provide spreading. It's probably the emulsifiers in the oil that break the surface tension which causes it to act as a spreader.

Thanks for the link Hman, I found what Jim said about studies to confirm what I have been saying about studies on another subject. I too, like Jim, worked for the Government (9 years) and was involved in studies. I worked for the anatomy department of a huge university, and came to the same conclusions he did.The sponsor was everything, not actual results. I find studies a mixed bag. Often basic research is very accurate, but then when the big boys want something. Just the way of the world I guess? He backed off and was polite as it takes some huge ones to bring truth to power as repercussions will surely follow. He quickly wanted what he said to go away.
Try a lawsuit against the big boys and HIPAA, the EPA, and the IRS will be knocking at your door, again, just the way of the world we live in. Sorry this is way off subject, but all should take note! Let us though get back to the subject shall we?
And 2 years later everybody is still using Nufilm , not sure why that is? For me it would be I still have a lot of it left!! My huge orchard of a couple dozen trees doesn't demand much product. But why are you not using Tactic?

OK, I see olpea answered that question

I don't understand why NuFilm would have a 30 PHI, while Tactic has 0 PHI

Because a big company makes Tactic,
Why I left the anatony dept. disgusted with it all. I would advise thinking it does have a 30 day PHI.

Drew, sounds like presumption based on other cases and that you are painting with too broad of a brush. You wouldn't be a broken idealist, would you?

You don't actually know the reason, although obviously bucks can matter, but I doubt they can get another company stuck with an unrealistically high PHI to steer business to their product.

NuFllm sells plenty of product and could easily afford a lawsuit if their was no rational basis. Actually, I've never heard of a company being able to use the Gov to knock out a competitor in such an obvious way- the usual thing is to play tricks with data on their own products, I believe.

Anyway, I've never even heard of a 30 day PHI for Nu-film or any other pesticide product- where did that even come from? Haven't checked the label for about 4 years, though. Someone please do a quick fact check on that.

The problem with absolute cynicism is that you wind up with no authority you can trust at all. I've read university comparisons of various spreader stickers and the latex based polymers seem to stick better- plus, as I say, commercial growers who are a skeptical bunch seem to be shifting to latex around here, even though the products are more expensive to use.

This post was edited by harvestman on Wed, Dec 3, 14 at 12:57

Hman, I dug up that old discussion that I forgot about; I wasn't super excited to switch based on my reading of the paper back then, but it did look like Tactic was a bit better (if you can find it - as a non-wholesale person its hard to find chemicals including Tactic, whereas several retailers sell Nufilm).

Scott

Here's what I cut from their label. For some reason I read PHI as REI, which is why I was amazed at the long interval. I'm wondering if this 30 day thing isn't being applied to all spreader stickers now.

By the way, Crop Production Systems has offices throughout the country and can deliver Tactic via UPS.
- 17
within 30 days of
harvest of food unless under specific
spray applications.
SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS CAUTION:
Nu-Film-17 can be used with Copper
fungicides and tolerance exempt pesticides on
Food Crops right up to harvest. The use of
Nu-Film on tolerance exempt pesticides close
to harvest may result in visible residues on
crops that may render them unsaleable. If this
becomes a problem, the rate of Nu-Film
should be reduced or stopped altogether

You posted the Nu-label, yeah we know that is 30 days.
What about Tactic? Naw they greased a lot of palms to get the studies to show 0 PHI. What we used to do is invalidate data we didn't like. We would claim a confounding factor, a contaminant, procedures not followed. We would come up with something to get the results they wanted, thus getting more grant money.
We would not lie, we would just exclude certain data.
Most of the work I did was with studying possible cures for leukemia. That study was actually decent. My job was to perform surgery on the rats we used. I would take a slice of liver for making abnormal cell counts. Mount it in paraffin and make 7 micron thick slices to see individual cells.That study was a lot of fun. The rats were really friendly, I felt bad. I lost a few too, giving them too much ether. Results were not what we wanted and in the end we invalidated the whole study. So we could not show the possible treatments worked, but we also did not conclude they didn't work either, although truth is they did not work.
All the rats succumbed to leukemia. Some studies I hated with cows and especially dogs, it was so cruel I could not stand it. Glad I left. Great benefits I gave up too. I would be sitting pretty now if I stayed. But I sleep well at night now.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Wed, Dec 3, 14 at 13:49

Drew, I'm not really defending Loveland here, just rational thinking. The gov won't pay for the research required to make certain adjustments on labels- companies need do this themselves. Research is extremely expensive and Nu-film is not connected to the kind of money needed, most likely or they've decided that it would not be worth the investment. It is not necessarily about bribes, Mr. Angry Britches.

I can imagine how angry you'd be if the taxpayers paid for this research.

Out here in very southern California (Vista, CA) it is still too early. January is the best time here when the deciduous trees are (finally) naked. Spraying before pruning and then lightly immediately afterwards on cutting wounds is a good tactic. For homeowners the Monterey Gardens Liqui-Cop is a good choice and for licensed individuals Dupont Kocide 3000 is excellent. Be sure to include a surfactant. Because we can also have onsets of warm weather during this time, adding a thrip pesticide to the mix is also recommended. Spinosad and its derivatives works well as a short lived topical.

I used Wilt Stop today and noticed it was 25% pinene. Nu-film is 100%, interesting.