Water them in after planting, then don't water again until the tree begins growing topside. At that point, water as often as needed. Which, at first, will be rather infrequently because very few leaves are present and temperatures will still be relatively low to moderate.

This post was edited by jean001a on Tue, Dec 23, 14 at 19:39

Thank you. I am glad you posted. I would have watered them on a regular basis.

I plant hundreds of bare root trees annually and if the soil is moist I never water them in, I sure wish someone would do a research study on the concept that "air pockets" are a bad thing for establishing trees. In moist soil those air pockets are probably at about 100% humidity and roots grow right through them. I want relatively loose, well drained soils for trees to establish so once gravity does its thing air pockets return anyway.

I simply tamp down moist soil and never worry about watering until the trees leaf out. Maybe this year I will do a comparison of my own, but the concept that watering in is needed seems so silly to me I've never taken the time to do this.

Dry farmers have installed orchards for centuries without any access to irrigation water.

Wow telling someone in zone 10 not to water will turn into a disaster. Yes, if you're in CA where is hasn't rained until recently in years, yes, you better water them weekly!! Well now that you have rains you're cool. Call your local extension service and ask about watering trees. They do not need much, if any in most parts of the country, but I found mine needed water every summer. My trees were extremely stressed this summer, as I was not paying attention they needed water badly!
Once tree is older you can probably cut down. If in CA you guys usually get like no rain, and they will need watering if the drought continues.
I listen to Don Shorr out of Davis CA and he waters his trees. You should check his podcasts. Check the October 16th show. Email him and ask about your area, the guy is a genius.He has even answered my emails on air, pretty cool! Farmer Fred is pretty cool too. I listen to his shows too. If you want to learn about care quickly give these podcasts a listen.

Here is a link that might be useful: Davis Garden Show

Drew, I stated that my approach was not conventional, and I also stated that I start with MOIST soil.

This was done deliberately to invite discussion, but to counter with the obvious consensus without at least considering my caveats is not conducive to serious discussion, IMO. Your rebuttals often seem to lack a reasonable consideration of comments you are refuting and seem to me to be about something much different than enlightenment.

And guess what, the soil is now moist in CA! Dormant bare root trees that are placed in moist soil that has been broken up into reasonably fine particles and firmed around the roots will do just do fine without immediate irrigation, no matter what the zone is, as long as soil is kept moist. Hopefully this will occur in CA via rainfall this season as least until May.

It is certainly commonly recommended that trees be watered in after being transplanted (I used to always do it until I found myself in situations of no available water), and if a hose is easily available, I certainly have no argument about doing so- just please don't stamp on the soil after it has been saturated- that is where you can do some real harm, especially in fine soils. People do this to avoid those dreaded "air pockets".

I have often seen transplants drowned by excess water and a real gardener should have a sense of the state of their soil. Getting ones hands in it is a great start.

I always follow Jean's advice. It's correct for a dry climate. I'm sure HM advice is fine for a humid climate with damp planting soil. But we can go months after planting with zero rain. Not watering in could kill the tree.

I had a couple trees planted last January that I failed to water at planting. The soil placed around the roots was almost air dry, ie nearly bone dry. Six weeks later with zero rain I realized the mistake. The nectarine on Lovell survived but barely. Growth was much delayed. That was how I discovered the lack of watering in, the trees sat there no top or root growth. When dug up they looked exactly like planting day, zero root growth. Replanted and watered they survived better than I would have expected but would have died if not watered.

I think this has been understood better than heading young fruit trees :-)

I think this all depends on the situation. In the east, rainfall is plenty. If we plant in late fall or early spring, only a little water is needed to make sure the roots are not dried out. Then with the rain and snow, we never have to water them again until probably June. We are getting too much water now.

Then I have three areas on gentle slopes. The soil is poor. Builder dug the soil when they built the house. Then they just piled the soil and made berms. There are many red hard clay or rocks. The builder planted many 5-6' evergreen trees and a few deciduous trees. Those areas are too far away from the house and it is almost impossible to water the trees. When we moved there, a few trees already died. Then I lost another 2-3 trees. Even a 15' tall white pine. So I had to haul my wheelbarrel and bring in some water in the hot summer. This spring/summer, I planted a few small trees and I had to water them on a regular basis. There was a lapse, then some needles just fell off the new trees. I hope they can recover over the winter. I normally do not water mature trees unless they are under severe stress. I know my neighbor lost two of their front yard maple trees. They are about 15' tall.

We can have very dry late summer, mainly in late September. This past summer, a lot of the deciduous trees lost their leaves in September. We lost two maples 10' from the driveway. They never really get established due to the poor soil and lack of water. Even the grass does not grow well over there.

OK, that's a much better answer. Yeah CA got the rain just in time for bare root season there.
Some very novice people ask for advice, you need to keep it simple and clear. If you want to discuss options for advanced students, start another thread.

I just planted a dozen trees this last weekend and didn't water them in. We just got 1-3/4" of rain so the ground was good and wet already. All the trees looked really good so hopefully this spring they should really do well.

FN, of course you should water if the soil is dry, but I believe it would be better to get it very wet well before planting then relying entirely on post planting irrigation.

Drew, if your concern was that a beginner might not know moist soil when they are digging in it, than I retract my suggestion about the basis of your rebuttal. You were trying to save someone from a possible serious mistake.

I lived and developed a lot of my gardening skill in CA, and during the rain season after the first really soaking rain the soil usually stays moist near the saturation point until spring. Obviously this is not true during drought. But during a normal rain season water requirements are no different there than in the east besides the facts that things may dry out more quickly and trees may not be completely dormant.

On average, coastal and near coastal CA has a very wet climate for about 4 months.

HM:

You are right about CA climate. Winters in many areas are wet to moderately wet on average. But when you plant in January you can't be sure there will be any significant rain in the next 9 months.

I'd rather plant in dry soil, if friable, and then water. Clay soil if too wet or too dry can be hard to work with.

I think to some extent you're flailing away at conventional practice but for what gain. Watering isn't a mistake unless overdone on sites with marginal drainage. Then the issue is drainage not watering.

you water a tree .. and it doesnt matter what kind... WHEN IT NEEDS WATER ....

insert finger 3 inches.. or use a hand trowel to find out ...

let dry to near 3 inches or so.. before you give it a good soak again ...

transplants are a bit different than established trees... once established... they will need little water from you.. most of the time.. surviving on nature... but for drought ...

there is a good primer at the link ... the biggest difference for the fruit nut.. is fert and IPM ... as fruit trees are production trees.. while the primer is not about production plants ...

WATER MANAGEMENT... is really the biggest part of the success of a transplant.. EVERYTHING comes after ...

the biggest problem here.. is none of us.. really know your soil.. and how it drains.. and that is why we can give suggestions... but it will all boil down to you.. your soil.. and your finger ...

one thing for sure.. do not love your trees to death ... they are everywhere .. trees that is.. and they.. once established.. need little or nothing ... until you get to the fruit growing part ...

NEVER ... treat a tree.. like an annual.. perennial or houseplant... they simply dont need the water.. that a lot of those things do ...

err towards letting it dry more..

good luck

ken

IPM = integrated pest management which includes disease ....

Here is a link that might be useful: link

HM:

I'm getting old and was planting 120 trees in three locations at once. It's not easy getting everything in the right spot and tagged correctly. Fortunately the trees were color coded.

A couple were missed with the water. Didn't matter anyhow as the freeze 3 months later killed most of those outdoors.

You know, I think, how much I appreciate your expertise. But sometimes I fog over on subjects like this that aren't all that important in the big picture of growing great fruit.

Ken:

Has anyone ever suggested a different posting style? Maybe it's just me but I often can't get thru your posts before my head starts spinning.

I can only tell you what I do and why. I water in everything that I plant. The why is because of the chemical processes of diffusion and/or osmosis: The former being the movement of molecules from a high concentration to a low concentration, the latter involving liquids. If the soil is drier than the plant it will draw water from the plant. This isn't a good thing for any plant, even if dormant. Since this is just what I do and why, I won't try to convince anyone that it's what they should do, nor will I argue the point.

Ken, I actually found your post to be a darn good summary in a free and original style. I agree, get your hands in the dirt and learn by way of your senses. Let things dry up a bit between watering....

Don't change a thing- FN already knows what he's doing anyway. I'm sure others will appreciate your writing.

FN, there is no trivia on the subject of fruit growing! How you water transplants is crucial and even if the details here go far beyond what's needed, this is a forum for fanatics, IMO. I'm sorry you aren't interested in the question of whether air pockets are lethal. I'm a hort nerd.

Are you feeling the pre-Christmas blues? I've never known you to be cranky before. I'm speaking for Ken here.

The people on this web post, the best info they have,It all depends on where you live and your climate. Harvestman & Fruitnut always post to the best of there knowledge. We should really appreciate the free info people like this give.

Bless you John and Merry Christmas!

And that's coming from an agnostic.

Merry Christmas to you to, Fruitnut. I love your input.

I've never known you to be cranky before

Where you been? I got him to yell at me a few times.
Talk about Christmas blues! It's my birthday Thursday!
I'm happy it's almost over, yeah!

The answer is still yes for the OP btw.

We should really appreciate the free info people like this give.

Well I do! At times though, I really have a hard time knowing exactly what they are saying? Often times getting a lecture instead of an answer. For this thread the majority say yes. I just wanted to make sure that was clear to the OP. That he should water. At least that is my assessment after 41 years of growing plants. That is my best answer, and the majority agree.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Dec 23, 14 at 20:13

I'd vote for using your experience and considering the time of year and soil conditions when you plant.

I planted some Carmine Jewel and Crimson Passion cherries about a month ago. The week before they arrived I added some peat, cow manure and sandy topsoil into what is mostly red clay with some loam on top It was already wet when I added the amendments and then it rained before I planted. I also dutifully watered in after planting because that is what the planting instructions said and even though the plants are in a mounded area they've seemed pretty soggy ever since because we've had cold weather then a lot of wet.

I actually wish now that I hadn't watered in since I'm a little worried that they've stayed too wet now and it has been a warmer December here with more rain coming tomorrow. I think they might have been better off if I had just planted them in the moist soil, since they're pretty much dormant now anyway. We'll see how they do when the spring arrives.

Now maybe the smart thing for me to do would have been to water some and leave the others without watering in. They I might actually learn something!

I agree to water if the soil is too dry in some places like CA or TX.

Here I never water trees in, but we get plenty of spring rains and I try to use wood chip mulch on young trees (if I have it). Like Zendog new trees here tend to suffer from too much water, not lack of it.

Sometimes I see general planting guidelines to water in trees and even soak them in water before planting. In dry climates this may be sound advice, but it's completely superfluous advice in areas which get plenty of rain.

Most of the advice on this thread is really borne out of the posters geographic moisture challenges - mine included.

If I had to face continual drought in a sandy soil, I'd probably be pretty hip on watering plants in (or even soaking them before planting). As it is, our soil is heavy, the water table can be pretty high when it rains, and we get plenty of spring rains. From a growing perspective in my area, it's a complete waste of time to water in trees.

this topics is too much over analysed. I lost quite a few trees, large or small to severe droughts. but never lose a single tree to over watered. the only loss is a couple of blueberry bushes, due to a very long raining season, pouring rain over a period of about five weeks.

We are talking Zone 10 here. Giving advice for zone 10. Wish i was in zone 10! Advice is also for winter planting in zone ten. Not spring planting in zone 6 or 7. I would advise Tim to ignore advice in other zones, it's not helpful in any way. Zone 10 is way different than anything else.
Keep us updated on the trees. What did you get exactly? What cultivars?
If you get anymore you should talk to hermitian a user here, he is in zone 10 too, and used to run a nursery, has his own line of fertilizers, is extremely familiar with your zone. Has a lifetime of experience! Sometimes trees offered are not the best for your zone. He would know!

This post was edited by Drew51 on Wed, Dec 24, 14 at 1:15

My name is Tete-a-Tete, and I am an air pocketaholic.

But even as I claim that air pockets need abolishing, I wonder about my words, which are other peoples' words: words I don't quite understand.

In any case, here is my method of planting and watering a bare-rooted tree...

I prefer to work with moist soil if at all possible. So I will wait for rain or water beforehand. Then allow a day or three to elapse while the soil is draining. I want moist soil, not wet.

You know when its the right moisture level as it is nice to work with. It's not heavy and mud-like, it's moist and delicious.

After I have dug the hole and thrown the tree in, I put the soil back into the hole in the same order in which it came out, and I press it down but not with both feet, trampling and squashing the soil to death. I use one foot, lightly, keeping my weight mainly on my other foot which is some way away from the dug area.

And yes I do water it in. Straight away. But I don't water that site again until I suddenly realise one day that it's ages since I watered it. My soil is a lovely clay-based soil and I'd be more concerned in the winter months about inadvertently creating a well.

Winter in Z10, on average, is much like spring in my Z6. Monthly rain averages are similar and average temps probably aren't too far apart. I left S. CA when I was around 26 and had been a serious gardener at that point for about 10 years. It started with my father paying me for providing fresh fruit and vegetables from his 3 acre property.

Condition variations didn't change the needs of recently planted bare roots from one zone to the other, except in CA we had serious gopher problems- talk about air pockets.

If I was fortunate enough that roots weren't eaten to the point of plant death I'd still have to deeply water and tamp the soil back down every few weeks during the growing season until trees were well established or they'd often stop growing. I didn't learn that from a book or a UC Davis guru either.

My experiences tend to follow olpea, I try to plant everything in the fall and winter in the clay soil here and dont bother watering in and have not had a problem. The one problem I had was last fall when I soaked my bare root peach and plum trees and blackberry plants from Burnt Ridge in a trash can full of water and forgot about them until then next day. All the plants had a great root systems but all ended up never leafing out. Pretty sure I drowned them all and did not ask for a refund from Burnt Ridge. I learned my lesson on that one and from now on when my bare root trees come in the mail, I will give them a quick dip in the water and that will be all they get.

Chris, those trees were probably worthless before you ever put them in water. Roots shouldn't drown from 24 hours of soaking. That is the equivalent of a long hard rain.

I've gotten bum trees from BRN before.

I have some pretty heavy soil and here west of the Cascades our soil is moist to saturated from October through April. I for one appreciate somebody asking the question as to whether this conventional wisdom of watering in should be universally applied.

I should have been more specific. I was looking for info on watering prior to leafing out. I believe I will let the rain take care of the watering prior to leaf bud. After that I have drip irrigation.
Thank you for your help.
Tim

Something I haven't seen mentioned unless I missed it. Watering after planting is about more than just providing needed water (though no doubt, that's the primary reason).
It also settles the soil and firms it in around the root structure helping to secure it in the event a high wind shows up in the coming days.
This "settling in" also gets the finished soil level to a more approximate finished grade. This is especially important if large stones (or in my case at one location buried masonry debris) were removed at planting.
If large air pockets remain, or even lots of small ones (likely with some soils) it can cause the soil to settle very unevenly causing the tree to tilt or lean badly. Sure, there are ways one could correct this, but it's easier to just avoid it.
It also seems clear to me that full contact with the soil is preferable and that is best and most easily achieved by watering. Any small air pockets (or large ones) will be filled by the heavier sagging soil and fine particulates washed down into them.
Obviously you could successfully plant in moist conditions without "watering in", that doesn't say anything at all to the point that it's not a good idea. If it's not available or difficult to access then that's another thing altogether.
IMO this is conventional wisdom which easily stands on it's own. Why challenge something so obviously correct?

No, not at all obvious and simply an unfounded opinion supported by a generous degree of self confidence. Flooded trees are not necessarily better anchored and flooding trees and stomping the soil is not something that is widely recommended.

I could as easily and perhaps more logically conclude that soil that isn't tamped down remains a better medium for growing roots in the same way it serves vegetables in a garden.

The entire basis of French Intensive Gardening, the first raised bed method I've read about, is the idea of keeping the soil loose- essentially mimicking landslide conditions to enhance vigorous growth. The founder of this method observed that trees and other plants grew much faster in soil that had been "plowed" by a landslide than nearby plants in stable soil.

The soil will settle all by itself and the only danger there is if you dig the hole deeper than the depth of the root ball.

If you are worried about blow over it takes about 5 minutes to stake a tree.

There is not always an obviously true side of an argument and there are different ways of doing things that work almost as well to the point where it hardly matters which way you choose.

Appleseed, fortunately the unpleasentries have been removed. I apologize for over reacting, but I was just a bit irritated that you seemed to be overlooking the gist of what I have been saying here. That is simply that watering in is fine, but if the soil is moist and watering inconvenient the bare root trees will be fine if you tamp the moist soil firmly around the roots- firmly but not to the point of compaction.

I do question your point about watering in by itself helping the trees anchor. I believe that this is accomplished better by tamping in moist soil than not tamping and only watering. I don't see how watering would make much difference as far as anchoring, although it is a reasonable assertion.

I suspect the reason guidelines are so consistent in suggesting watering trees in is to make them idiot proof so trees have a decent chance even if the soil is just loosely placed back into the hole. Plus an unfounded (as far as I know) fear of air pockets.

HM, I agree with no your stomping philosophy, about all vegetable gardening literature says to plant in loose soil with the idea that roots spread easier that way. It would sure seem that that the same applies to fruit tree roots or any other tree roots. When planting new bare root trees, I take my mini tiller and pulverize the clay in a 2 foot area around the planting hole to make the soil as loose as possible and after planting, very lightly tap the soil with my foot, cover with mulch and I am done. I guess transplanting larger trees may require staking but I do not see where intentionally compacting the soil is ever a good idea.

Chris, it does depend to some degree on the texture of the soil. With clay you can easily compress it too tightly, but a sandy loam needs to be firmed quite a bit to get the soil around the roots adequately. I guess it's obvious that clay is very sticky.

Guidelines tend to be very general. I say, dig deeper.

"vegetable gardening literature says to plant in loose soil with the idea that roots spread easier that way. It would sure seem that that the same applies to fruit tree roots or any other tree roots."

I've come to that conclusion too. I think part of the reason trees do so well in raised plantings is because the soil is looser. Peach trees planted in freshly made raised plantings grow quite a bit faster than trees planted in older (more packed) raised plantings in my experience.

I've not had any blow-overs of dormant, freshly planted trees. They don't seem to catch enough wind without foliage. I do head trees back significantly at planting, so that might make a difference.

Some trees will wobble a hole in during the growing season. This generally happens after heavy rains (when the soil is very wet) and high winds. Putting sand in the wobbled out hole usually fixes the problem and firms the tree up.

This post was edited by olpea on Thu, Jan 1, 15 at 10:53

What a facinating thread, let me go get some popcorn...

To each their own, but I would not even think of planting something without watering it. Northwoodswis

Olpea, that's a good idea about the sand. My main problem with anchorage occurs in saturated, slow to drain soil. I have a large orchard of about 120 trees I manage in clay loam farm soil. Excellent for growing tomatoes and vegetable crops but too rich and fine to be perfect for fruit trees.

The site is highly exposed to wind and from about the fourth year I installed the trees blow overs became common- mostly in the fall when the crop was already harvested. This tends to be when soil is wettest at any point trees are in full leaf. My main problem was apples on M7.

I decided to gradually build up the soil by adding 2-3" of a sand and compost mix in a ring under the unstable trees really not caring if trees rooted above the graft unions. On an estate, straight trees can be more important than productivity.

After doing this for the last 8 years (doing fewer and fewer trees every year) the trees have stabelized, although I can't be sure if it was the sand and compost. Trees tend to firm up over time anyway, but I do see lots of root in my ballast. Any rooting above the graft unions hasn't affected the productivity or vigor of the trees so far.

Maybe he should water after planting? Hmmm?
I hate these complex questions that take 39 posts to answer.

"Let our step remain true, the stakes are high" - tree stompers of America Convention -near the loess outcrop in Windblown AZ 2015

"I hate these complex questions that take 39 posts to answer."

Yes the in depth analysis of watering in has finally convinced me. I'm not only going to start watering in trees, but also stakes I place in the ground, as well as any flag markers. I'm also going to water in my tomato cages.

(Drew, I laughed at your clever sarcasm, I hope you find some humor in mine :-)