I have experienced 'niacin flush' a few times, and it wasn't particularly fun.

Some of those reactions fade over time - the body becomes used to it. Others might require dividing the dose. Could also be an excipient (non-active ingredient).

The extra stuff is
Sorbitol
Natural Cherry flavor
Stearic acid and
Magnesium stearate

It is the type of pill you take sub linqually

The occurrence of the headache is likely coincidental.

Sorbitol can cause diarrhea, by the way.

More on vitamin B12 here.

B12 - Cyanocobalamin
is converted to its active forms, first hydroxocobalamin and then methylcobalamin.
Cyanocobalamin is the cheap form most all stores sell. I found only 1 methylcobalamin B12 supplement searching Walmart, shoppers drug mart and london drugs.

I eventually found methylcobalamin 1000mcg at a vitamins & minerals pharmacy.

At first I could take a whole capsule without any side effects.. I was very surprised the mental focus and determination I had.. I eventually took B12 with other super foods and supplements.. WOW.. ever tried GliSODin ???

Anyways.. I hit a low point in my life and took a mega dose of B12, SOD ... (2-3 B12 and 2-3 SOD) SOD - Super Oxide Dimutase is an melon extract and is very beneficial..

I dont take any medications... But I do have a long history of head and neck traumas.. When I was a baby 2-4 years old I think I was.. I split my forhead by jumping on a couch and knocking my forhead on a corner of a table.. plus years of crazy snow boarding wipeouts .... and before I took this mega dose.. I hit my head directly in the top forehead region by walking down some very steep stairs into a boat. My head hit a thick steel beam.. and If I had fallen Im sure I could have broke my back.. so I absorbed the pain in an instant and walked on..

What happened from this mega dose.. was I gave myself a month long headache !! This headache was like being on the edge of a cliff.. If Iam not focused on doing imminent tasks that are in direct relation to my life survival and dreams.. inside my forehead becomes very tense and constricted is how it feels... However years later I have learned to position my neck and head and relax and think certain thoughts which will immediately make the headache disappear.. usually only momentarilly, but the higher the dose the harder it is to do this.. Another thing to do is have a quick sleep or nap ... depending on dose a much longer sleep is required...

These days... I cannot take B12.. although I have not tried smaller doses than 1000mcg.. it is too scary.. and I do take SOD sometimes I can take a 1/4 tablet or about 40-60mg without a side effect which I can easily tolerate or make disappear on my own.. which is kinda a neat excersise... If i do say so ...

--
Maybe if anyone can describe the headache they get from B12 for other people to reference..

My B12 headache is different than a headache I get when I have a cold or stress.. my eyes are not sensitive to light for example.. B12 makes me super sensitive to EVERYTHING!! the problem with this is their is a very thin middle ground.. peace

I took it for two weeks and now have been off two weeks and still have the problems. It's been pretty awful, and for some reason the symptoms haven't gone away yet.

Not sure what to do.

Many years ago, for a time I took high doses of B vitamins. I wonder if I developed a sensitivity as a result of that.

My secretary discovered that B vitamins were giving her headaches too. I wonder how many people have this problem and don't know it!

It's simple. You have a congested liver and you're overloading it with that stuff. Congested liver causes internal back pressure which, in turn, puts pressure on the inside of your head. Voila! You have headaches.

theherbalist2012

As far as "liver congestion" I have no idea what you mean by that...the liver is a large organ and has an huge blood supply because it acts as a filter for toxins in the body. It is full of blood normally and I don't understand what you mean by congestion.

Joann

Compare you liver to an oil filter in your car. It's full of oil, yet it gets congested over time.

theherbalist2012

Apart from whatever problem is affecting the heart, congestion can damage the liver if it lasts long enough. This will not however cause migraine headaches (migraines have a slew of different possible causes/triggers; liver congestion is not recognized as one of them).

Medscape has a very detailed and useful article on migraines, including possible drug triggers (it doesn't mention vitamin B12, which has been used to prevent migraines; still, seeing that so many different triggers have been found to affect people, it might be a good idea to take supplemental B12 only if there's a compelling medical need for it).

This part of the article describes potential complementary/alternative treatments for migraine.

theherbalist2012

What other chronic health symptoms do you experience?

Thanks.

theherbalist

headaches can result from increased pressure in the head caused by the blood flowing in faster than it drains back down into the body.

Cool response. I didn't know that about b-12. B-12 isn't exactly herbology, so it's out of my realm of expertise.

I haven't forgotten about our food allergy discussion (or lack thereof. ha, ha)

Charlie
theherbalist

You won't like my answer.

theherbalist

many studies show the hulda clark cleanse acts more on the gallbladder than liver and the stones expelled are not really stones, they are balls of bile and olive oil. passing gallsstones thru the bile duct is dangerous, a stuck one constitutes a medical emergency requiring surgery...these flushes are not recommended for those known to have obstructive gallstones. having said that have seen health improvements from them, have done 50+ myself.

a better strategy is to move stagnant liver energy, ie, clear the liver which improves its function. an effective formula for this is to mix equal parts by weight of turmeric and barberry herbs, grind to a powder, mix with honey or maple syrup to form a thick paste, use a teaspoon or so 3x per day stirred into a bit of warm almond milk.
also for best liver health make sure you are asleep by 11 pm each evening as 11pm-3 am is the span in the 24 hour cycle that the liver cleans and repairs itself.

i'd recommend a micro algae supplement and regular but small amounts of red meat including organ meats (free range grass fed animal meat please) to correct b12 deficiency if you know you have one pieter...did blood work reveal the deficiency? in other words how do you know you are deficient?

hope this helps, kk

As much as I irritate my illustrious colleague, kk, I will say that she's right about the liver flushing. If you're a curezone convert, you may have fallen victim to their philosphy. There's a much better and safer way to remove the cause of a congested liver.

Where I don't agree with kk is her assumption that you need tumeric and barberry. These are cooling to the liver. But from what you've said thus far, it can't be determined if you need cooling or warming liver herbs. Therefore, an herbal regimen can't be accurately determined and you may or may not have side affects from barberry/tumeric. I hope it works, though.

In my form of herbology, I use herbs that will drain, stimulate, relax, restore energy, etc. by way of cooling, warming, drying, moistening, etc. It gets complex. Professionally speaking, more information needs to be provided. Otherwise, I'd be irresponsible to your health needs.

By the way, with proper oversight, passing of true gallstones is no more dangerous than a cold WHEN the proper herbs and regimen is followed. I do it all the time with my clients. Hint: organic form of monosodium phosphate in herbs.

Charlie
theherbalist

intense dietary therapy will boost levels fairly rapidly and doesn't cause bad side effects unless you eat something you're allergic to. here's a link showing some high b12 foods, be sure to incorporate one or more into your daily regimen till levels rise.

http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/foods-high-in-vitamin-B12.p hp

microalgae like spirulina or chlorella are also good sources and can be mixed in smoothies and other foods pretty easily, only small amounts are needed.

the herb paste recommended above clears a sluggish liver quickly and promotes normal function...provides other benefits too...its a time honored (millenia) treatment from the ayurvedic medical tradition of india. turmeric is a near panacea so encourage you to make up some and use it for awhile...a few weeks is usually enough to see good results.

feel better! kk

the only thing that irritates me about you charlie is your irresponsible advice. otherwise, cheers!

There are several matters according to your posts that could be discussed. But, because of the coincidence of your recent posting above, I want to share something regarding your statement "its a time honored (millenia) treatment from the ayurvedic medical tradition of india." It's my belief that we can no longer rely on the time-honored treatments.

It was just last week that I wrote to a friend and colleague who's a professor at one of the acupuncture colleges here in Arizona. Enjoy.

"Joseph:
I just received from a customer a copy of The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine (New edition by Ilza Veith). I found it to be pretty much worthless as far as getting practical clinical information.
But one statement caught my attention: ". . . the development of the different cures resulted from the various geographical conditions under which the people lived. The four points of the compass and the region of the center are held to produce anthropological differences and, consequently, susceptibility to different diseases in man; and these, in turn, can be cured only by that method which is supposed to be connected specifically with each particular region." I believe this to be true and puts into words what I felt back in the 1980's. I have seen better results using my western as well as several Chinese herbs to treat conditions according to my understanding of western man and disease while, at the same time, applying the Chinese principles in lieu of the way many people apply western herbology (allopathically). I want to pursue the pulse analyzing because I believe it will be the tool to help me pin-point specifically the conditions that need attention."

Joseph wrote back . . . " I agree that the Veith translation is pretty worthless overall. This person had no training in or any particular comprehension of the medicine. I feel [for instance]that the differing climates in the different regions are what make adjusting treatments crucial."

My response: "There's something else that I was referring to . . . Wasn't the Chinese culture big about rice as opposed to the western reliance on wheat products? I ask you because you know the eastern culture better than me. Once I get your input, I'll share what I feel about it.

Joseph: "Thank you. Yes, most Chinese rely on rice as their starch source. Especially those in southern China. In the colder northern regions, especially Manchuria and around Mongolia, they rely on millet. This is why the southern Chinese are short (and more hot-headed), and the northern Chinese bigger and stronger. Neither of these grains are nearly as prone to produce what the Chinese call dampness in the system as wheat is. But I'm not sure if the Chinese were smarter about that when they set up their agriculture in olden times, or just lucky."

Finally, I wrote: "Joseph:

Your information about millet and rice fits right into what I want to share with you. I don't want this to sound like I'm lecturing you. I'll just share with you what I've learned from a western point of view.

Gluten (wheat and beans) gives us fibrin in the blood. We need fibrin when we cut ourselves or have other kinds of trauma. Fibrin forms the mesh work in the cut that forms the scab and works toward our healing. Two things that will cause an excess of fibrin; too much glutenous floods and/or slow-down with internal workings that process gluten. Excess fibrin will exude through mucous membranes causing catarrh. This catarrh can clog up the tissue of healthy blood flow thereby become counter-productive. In the lungs, we then get pneumonia, bronchitis, etc. (catarrh is the phlegm we cough up during/after the infection). In the throat, people then get tonsilitis (This sometimes shows as white, puss postules or exudate on the tonsils). If it exudes through the bladder mucous membranes, you have cystitis, UTI, etc. The fever is a result of the body trying to dissolve the excess fibrin (catarrh) by infusion. Herbs help to "chemically" (bio-chemistry) dissolve this catarrh thereby assisting the body to restore healthy circulation to the tissue with a resultant healing. * According to Schussler's System of Biochemistry (in principle only) we can use herbs with potassium chloride which is a fibrin solvent. Herbs such as elder flower, boneset, etc. can be applied.

* (footnote) Here's where I introduce the germ theory. The catarrh becomes a food source in the putrefying process of the tissue for bacteria and viruses. This putrefaction draws the bacteria. When healthy circulation of the tissue is restored, the bacteria merely go away since they can't live on healthy tissue. This is why bacterial/viral presence is merely a symptom, and indicator. But it's never the cause. To use anti-biotics to kills the bacteria is merely treating a symptom and is never as affective as applying the proper herb regimen.

Anyhow, to make a long story longer . . . I feel western man has developed diseases plus secondary and tertiary spin-off diseases that branch off from this primary difference of the eastern civilizations. My greatest clinical experience has had to deal with western conditions. Therefore, I think I understand why the Chinese recipes haven't been successful in helping me with my problem.

But . . . I believe your analysis of my conditions will be useful in developing a more progressive/customized approach."

I know I'm throwing a lot at you, but what do you think?

theherbalist

i don't treat diseases, i treat people with disharmonious energy patterns. using an energetic approach means the treatment is fitted exactly to what is going on in the individual person...which by extension means that any treatment (east, west, old, new) can work if appropriate in the context of the whole person and their condition.

hope that's what you wanted to know.

My tendency is to educate. I just gave you a glimpse into some of the deepest thinking in the realm of herbology in modern times. You mean it completely went over your head?

Yes, I understand all the jargon about not treating disease, treat disharmonies, etc., etc., etc. It's all been said before. But some of the things you say lead me to believe that you'll acquire greater understanding and wisdom with a few more years of clinical experience.

You take care.

By the way, does anyone get what I was saying in the previous post? Please, tell me I'm not losing it.

theherbalist

but since you bring it up...your smugness is lost on me, you consider this letter a scholarly piece of work, i consider it a mess of jumbled words and incorrect concepts and was frankly embarassed for you at the thot of you representing yourself to a professor of an acupuncture college in this way.

a couple of examples....your understanding of fibrin is all wrong. fibrin is a protein, proteins are made from amino acids which can come from any food containing them. the body makes proteins as needed, gluten certainly is not required to make fibrin, fibrin doesn't come from gluten altho gluten may contain the aa's required to make it. lots of folks strictly avoid gluten yet have plenty of fibrin.

your understanding of the inflammatory process is way off too.

i do agree in basic principle with what you had to say about the germ theory.

there are many reasons why a certain therapy doesn't work and suspect one of these is at play in your case. the remedies do work if the diagnosis is right and the therapy appropriate. the idea that old time honored or eastern remedies don't work in the west is ludicrous since they can and do work every day. diseases are not different in different places but they are viewed differently. its hard for us to see ourselves clearly and be our own herbalist, if you are having trouble finding what works for you maybe ask someone to help you puzzle out your patterns? most of us get better results that way.

its stating the obvious and excusing your attempt at condescension but i will and agree that yes! i'll definitely benefit from as much clinical experience i can get. but then of course, we all do.

you're taking the fun out of this forum for me. i have nothing to prove and came here to exchange info about remedies with folks. not arm wrestle with you....if i wanted to hang out with a passive aggressive super ego i'd spend more time with my mother.

A 5 year old boy has eczema around the knees, neck and elbows so bad that they're covered with dark, oozing, bleeding scabs. And he never drinks water. How long would it take for him to get totally well with your approach? (No vague answers, please. Looking for specific time period.)

Thanks.

theherbalist

holistic practitioners work with individuals, individuals are unique, individual uniqueness implies many many variables. for a practitioner to state or promise a time is not only irresponsible but its illegal dr. charlie. like calling yourself a doctor is illegal, yeah, just like that.

much more info is needed like...what does he eat? what's his sleep cycle like? what is the emotional environ of his home, school? other health issues? family history? what does his tongue look like? how about his pulses? what's his constitution from birth, what energetic patterns are operating in him now, etc.

i hold by my original statements that you are dangerous and give well trained and knowledgable herbalists a bad name. please leave me alone. no amount of your teasing, testing or condescesion would entice me to engage you further.

its no wonder you got ran out of those other forums.

Go ahead and just take a guess. Consider all those variables that you mentioned and give it your best shot. Don't worry, no one can hold you to anything. But if I'm to see that your system or approach is better than what I've developed, I would like to know the bottom line. How long do you think it would take for the person to get well?

Thanks.

theherbalist

again, you miss the point entirely. I hold MYSELF to a standard of responsible and professional conduct. engaging in this guess test of yours would violate that standard, i won't go there with you and explained why in detail in the previous post.

i frankly don't care or have any interest in what you see or don't see, what approaches you approve of, etc.

I have nothing to prove to you and want nothing to do with the games you play. again, i'm asking nicely for you to please leave me alone.

I see. You don't mind making disparaging remarks about me on a public forum. But when you're required to validate yourself, you hide behind your attitude. If you're so certified at this and that, why can't you answer a simple question? You can have all the certification you want, but it has nothing to do with your skill level. You need more education and experience before you can reach a professional level. I wouldn't give two cents for those certifications or membership in some self-serving guild.

I'll tell you my experience. That little boy's mother brought him to me about 10 years ago. He was totally well in 3 weeks. It was a simple customized herb tonic. And yes, it was basically a customized liver tonic.

Quit making yourself out to be something you're not. Oh, ya. You can dish it out, but you can't take it.

theherbalist and herbal physician

Your problem is that you're not humble enough to learn from a professional who has more knowledge and experience than you.

Shame on you.

Ghoghunter, please let us know how kk's information helped your migraines. Be careful. Her suggestion is not a balanced formula. The energies may damn up and create other problems.

theherbalist

i reported the problem yesterday morning to tracey, this forum adminisitrator.

it could have been fun, lots of nice folks here with good info to share, thanks for the good reads.

kk

To "the herbalist, the herbal physician, Charlie, or what ever you want to be called... Shut up!!! This thread was supposed to answer questions and help people who are seeking answers to a problem, not your ego boosting battleground! I feel very bad for KK, who was simply trying to help out Joann, others, and I and give us some answers instead of "You wont like my answer" wtf kind of response is that??? How do you know he won't like it? Their is no reason for you to be asking KK questions regarding individual paitients and treatment options and healing times, that is very irresponsible. Yes your paItient got better in 3 weeks, apparently ( I really wouldn't believe a whole lot you say anyways) but those are individual results. As KK was trying to to say, everyone is different and has different responses to various treatments. I really don't want to waste anymore time and brain power on you and this subject, it's not worth it. Simply keep ur comments to yourself next time and focus on the questions and helping people find the answers, and remember not every question or problem has one right answer.

Back to the subject, I started taking b12 supplements 4 or 5 ago, they are 1000 mcg. I took them to help boost my energy, due to the fact that I have had a lack of it lately. Yesterday shortly after I took the b12 I started to get a sharp headache right behind my left eye, and it got worse through out the day. It was. Dry sensitive to light and movement (when I moved my yes) I also wear glasses and I took them off for most of the day, but it kept getting worse. I then took a nap but It was still there after the nap. I then went to bed last night thinking it would be gone, but upon waking up, it is still there. It is very weird because I very rarely get headaches. Almost never, i can't even remember the last one I had! I tried to think of anything I did different and the only thing I did was start the b12.

I don't know if the type of headache is similar to anyone else's (behind the eye) but its very painful and annoying. The reason I took it is for lack of energy and motivation. I am taking anti-depressants, I also take a multi vitamin every day.If anyone has any insight (other than "the herbalist, the herbal physician, and/or Charlie") on how to help increase my energy and motivation, it would be greatly appreciated.

If you have knowledge of such a product please post a link or any information that could help.

These are the ingredients my wife is allergic to:

sorbitol
mannitol
magnesium stearate (all forms)
stearic acid (all forms)
Rice based fillers
Yeast
Milk/Dairy based fillers
Gluten

My wife's B-12 deficiency is exhibiting symptoms so any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

BTW, the odds of being allergic to everything you describe is extremely low.

I have searched the internet and found that the GNC brand of B-12 supplements contain no stearic acid or magnesium stearate however they do contain calcium carbonate which is unacceptable for my wife's sensitivities (however, most normal healthy people can tolerate it.)

GNC products are the purest I have found so far. My search continues and I will keep you updated.

your wife can certainly display allergenic symptoms to everything you mentioned and more if she has a leaky gut. in fact, these folks usually do present with an overwhelming number of apparent allergens. the good news is there is a lot that can be done about it. herbal teas containing mild vulnerary (wound healing) and nervine herbs, probiotic therapy, an amended diet for awhile, soothing of systemic inflammation, certain supplements etc. can all be helpful. my suggestion would be for her to see a naturopath or herbalist trained in nutrition and digestive disorders.

by chance does your wife have a history of antibiotic use?

best wishes for her healing, kali

As for "detoxification", anyone promoting this concept is apt to be selling some kind of useless product. Questions to ask are 1) what are the "toxins" that are supposedly causing harm, 2) are these substances present in amounts sufficient to cause disease, 3) what's the evidence that the product (or diet) reduces levels of these substances in the body, and 4) if so, what evidence is there that you'll be healthier as a result.

I've yet to see a naturopath or other "detoxification" promoter willing and able to answer these questions.

Blood is only a quarter of the fluid in our body, the other 75% is lymphatic fluid... Before you jump conclusions why don't you research this man I'm talking about, everyone so used to snake oil that everyone is so closed minded nobody listens to the truth! Our body is made up if cells and two major fluids blood and lymphatic fluid. The blood feeds the cells the lymphatic fluid cleans the cells, this waste is called metabolic interstitial waste, this waste is eliminated via urination,defication,persperation, and respiration. Our body is alkaline by design and acidic by function. You are correct in that are blood is slightly alkaline, so is the rest of our body. But, our waste whether it be from activity(lactic acid,etc) or from eating(metabolic,etc) is acidic. If the lymphatic system gets clogged(from poor diet, antibiotics,etc, don't have time to get into that now...) this acid byproduct(waste) is stuck in our body(interstitial lymphatic constipation). When you pop a pimple, you see 25% blood and 75% lymph fluid.... To say you cannot alkalize through diet is ridiculous. Research Dr Morse, Arnold arhet, tc fri, dr shelton. That is when the first true naturopathy started... Hope u find the truth.

Joe

Lymphatic fluid does not "clean cells" in the manner you suggest, it does not get clogged by diet or antibiotics, and its acid-base balance is maintained by natural buffering mechanisms similar to those at work in blood plasma - you don't need special diets or supplements to maintain a healthy pH in lymph, plasma or other extracellular fluids..

What this has to do with possible association between vitamin B12 and headaches is a mystery.

The bogus miracle cure promoters and supplement salesmen could benefit tremendously from a simple community college course in human physiology, if they were willing to give up their cherished misconceptions.

Joe