for the pancreas there is a homeopathic remedy called nux vomica that i have found particularly helpful. high blood pressure i would incorporate extra virgin olive oil and lots of garlic and onions into my diet.

Does your aunt drink? I had those pains when I was an active alcoholic. They went away when I quit drinking. Pancreatitis has other causes as well, and this may be what she is developing. Sometimes it is caused by an auto-immune disorder. Often it is a blood sugar problem. She may get tests for these and should before trying anything. High blood pressure has so many possible causes it would be hard to say much but general panaceas here.

I can't believe you're asking for ideas on what to give someone for an UNidentifiable medical problem! What are you thinking, or do you dislike her so much you're willing to try something a stranger on the internet suggests and give it to her, without a thought in the world to what it could do to her, let alone her condition?

First of all -
Lucy: Does it sound like I am doing this without thought or concern for my aunt? Traditional Medicine is so far unable to help her. I am not suggesting that she give up on traiditional medicine, not that you would know since you did not ask but only assumed the absolute worst possible scenario. I am looking for supplements. I know very little about the pancreas and it's issues outside of diabetes and thought there might be a herbal concoction that was known to help the pancrease. General pancreas help, certainly not specifics since we do not know them. I thought i had made this clear. Perhaps next time you could ask first, or offer constructive help, instead of sarcasm and assumption.

She does not drink, nor does she have blood sugar problems. This is why no one is sure what is going on when she does have problems. There are herbs that generally help certain parts of the body. I am looking for something that tends to stimulate and help the pancreas.

As far as high blood pressure . . . its not dangerously high or anything like that. Garlic, dark chocolate . . . these things i know. Many people can use a little blood pressure help, and I was thinking of trying to make a tea that one could drink (instead of coffee) that might have some benefits in that area. High Blood Pressure is caused by too many varied things to list. Obviously, by changing diet and exercise habits one can help blood pressure. Sometimes, however, it is genetically high and even with a healthy diet and a very active lifestyle, there is little you can do. This is why i am looking for herbal help in this area. I thought a tea would be a nice idea as one should try and give up coffee when their blood pressure is high, and instead of quitting cold turkey, you could replace your morning coffee with another hot, flavored drink (ie tea) which could be helpful at the same time.

Any ideas?

i have heard that horsetail grass tea is helpful for high blood pressure. There is a very good book out called "The Green Pharmacy" that is an excellent source for herbal remedies.

There is a form of horsetail that historically has been found to have a diuretic effect (and theoretically might lower blood pressure) but has not been studied extensively in humans. It is not recommended for use in patients with heart or kidney problems and prolonged use is contraindicated. It may also interact with other medications.

Cziga - I worked for too long at the Tor. Gen., Sick Kids and Mt. Sinai to assume anything of anyone, but I don't know you, and maybe you don't realize that 'supplements' can interact strongly with trad. medicine, or anything else in the body, and can cause serious damage. Just because she doesn't have a proper diagnosis is not a reason to go and guess at what's wrong to the point of trying to treat it with unknown quantities of unproven herbs, etc. I'm sure you do care, but I'm not sure it's the most appropriate way to go.

Thank you for the helpful suggestions. I will be looking into some of them :)

Lucy -- Herbal supplements, in moderation of course, are ok as long as they aren't individually harmful and the person is not on any other medications. They can be quite beneficial. If you're not using traditional medications at the time, there is nothing wrong with herbs. Just like if you have a headache. If tylenol doesn't work you you, lavender might help a bit. Even if you can't pinpoint the cause of the headache, most people still try to "treat" it. Why? Because there is pain and you want to help. Now obviously, you dont take advil, tylenol, aspirin and herbs all at the same time. You choose one, and try it. If it doesn't work, next time you choose a different one and try that. And so on. This is exactly what I am looking for, just for stimulating the pancrease, not helping a headache. Different body part, same principle. I appreciate you have medical background. You're certainly not the only one. Some people are ignorant when it comes to the use of medications, the use of herbs to help the body, and the mixture of the two. However, I rather think that most people who post on this forum generally recognize these pitfalls - their posts are, most people anyhow, informed and aware of the risks and benefits of the herbs they are talking about.

Most people who work in "traditional" medicine have a difficult time believing in the efficacy of herbs to help treat ailments, especially ailments that do not respond to medical care. However, some herbs have been "proven" to help treat illnesses just as some medications have been "proven" to help treat illnesses. No one treatment works for everyone across the board. They are not "unknown quantites of unproven herbs". They are herbal remedies that have been known to help certain conditions. I am simply asking for one of them. If you don't believe that herbs can help in this way, perhaps this is not the right forum for you :)

..."some herbs have been "proven" to help treat illnesses just as some medications have been "proven" to help treat illnesses."

And that's the difficulty in this case - there's no herbal drug proven to "stimulate" the pancreas in a beneficial way when it's not known what the underlying problem is. A general assumption that "herbs in moderation are OK" could wind up being dangerous in treating an unknown disorder, which is what I believe lucy was getting at.

While we can't provide even a general diagnosis for your aunt's troubles in this forum, here's some information on chronic pancreatitis that might be helpful (as you can see, the cause of inflammatory attacks can't always be discovered).

Cziga - You don't understand... It's BECAUSE I believe herbs can be VERY 'effective' (whether positively or negatively) that I'm cautioning you. It is NOT true that they're all harmless at all, not by a long shot, and can be very detrimental to health! Do you know people died from using Ephedra for dieting? And others have died using many other herbs, etc. It's one thing to drink a cup of chamomile tea, but unless you're a chemist, you have no real idea of what negative interactions can occur between herbal preps and either trad. meds or your body's chemistry. Just because something is 'natural' does NOT mean it's harmless or good or anything else. Please educate yourself for the good of your family if nothing else.

You can use Lemongrass and boil the lemongrass and drink the tea for high blood pressure.....

Amazingly, lemongrass seems to be good for just about anything.

According to one herbal site, lemongrass (Cymbopogon citratus) "is traditionally used in various parts of the world as an antiseptic, antispasmodic, carminative, cyanogenetic, dentrifice, diaphoretic, diuretic, emmenagogue, expectorant, pectoral, preventative (cold), stimulant, sudorific, and tonic, used to treat common cold, consumption, cough, depurative, dyspepsia, elephantiasis, fever, flu, gingivitis, headache, hypertension, insecticide, leprosy, malaria, mouth sores, neuritis, pneumonia, pyorrhea, rheumatism, sprains, and toothache."

So on a traditional basis, at least, you can pretty much clean out your medicine chest and just keep a bunch of lemongrass on hand (this might be difficult if you live in Toronto like the OP and not in the tropics, as lemongrass is a tender herb).

On a scientific basis, lemongrass doesn't have much going for it. A PubMed journal search turns up one reference from Cuba. Lemongrass given intravenously had some blood pressure-lowering effect (the summary doesn't say how significant it was) in rats.

I was diagnosed with chronic pancreatitis at the age of 22. I never drank other than a few sips here and there of other peoples alcohol beverages out of curiousity. After 6 years of every test under the sun, and then some, they determined that I had a mutated CF gene, and I had had bouts of pancreatitis my entire life, undiagnosed until age 22. After being hospitalized at 22, I lived on nothing but water, applesause, and vegetable broth because I couldn't keep anything else down, for about a year and a half. After years of suffering and being passed from specialist to specialist, I decided to start studying alternative medicines and figure it out for myself. Believe me, I know first hand the frustration of traditional medicine! Doctors only treat they symptoms, and if they can't throw a pill at it then they don't know what to do. There are some things that pills are neccisary for and doctors are needed for, but the majority of the time they seem to cause more harm then good. (My personal opinion from personal experiance)
I am on a gluten free, dairy free, low fat, low protein, vegetarian diet. When the pancrease is impared, it's hard for it to brake down and digest fats and proteins, especially those from animal sources. Eating problem foods will cause more pain. When the sharp pains start, it's called a flair up, and it's best to fast for a few days with nothing but water or broth. It's essentail to take vitamins and there's a good chance of still not getting the proper amount because of malabsorption problems. There is an herbal digestive aide I take that just says digestive aide on the bottle. There is also a product I switched to recently called Juice for Life. This one has all the vitamins of a full day supply of veggies and fruits, and well as enzymes and probiotics. This will improve the digestive function, improve the intestinal flura and provide all the vitamins at the same time. I am very happy with this suppliment and my diet because I hardly ever have any flair ups now, and when I do they are mild in comparison to the past. If at any point she can't keep water down, she has to go to the ER for IV fluids. Dehydration is a very serious, possible life treatening complication! Try an elimination/challenge diet to identify any food alleries or intollerances she may have, and eliminate the problem foods. Tell her to cut back of the meats and fats, as they will cause more pain. Try the juice for life. And eat 5-6 small meals throughout the day instead of 2-3 large ones. When she is fealling the sharp pains, take her to the ER and tell them she's been having these problems a lot and you'd like them to check her pancreas. Amilase and Lipase levels should be checked, because they will be high in pancreatitis. My levels are always a little high because my condition is chronic. If her pancreas hasn't been perminately damaged, the levels would go back to normal when the pain diminishes. Also have them check her liver and gallbladder. If you want to e-mail me with more specifics I can work out a specific diet plan and tell you which homeopathic remedies would be appropriate. The suggestions I posted here are safe and anybody could try the diet and herbal suppliments without a problem. Fasting, however, should be done under the guidence of a health care professional if you don't know what your doing or are unsure of what to do or have other health concerns. Other therapies to consider are aromatherapy, yoga, meditation, guided imagry, hypnosis, and ice or heat packs.

Thanks jae, for the thoughtful and detailed information. It is well worth looking into.

Hibiscus tea can be helpful for high blood pressure - it is a tender perennial that can be grown as an annual in colder climates, and it can be inexpensive bought as a bulk tea if you shop around. Studies in human showed 5 to 10 grams of the dried herb made into tea per day is comparable to diuretic medicines for high blood pressure, and the red anthocyanin pigments may offer additional health benefits not found in the pharmaceuticals.

Also, sesame oil can help lower blood pressure - either a spoonful a day, or use sesame oil as your cooking oil.

Combine those two with a bit of exercise, some weight loss if needed, and regular monitoring of blood pressure, and most people will be good to go.

>> On a scientific basis, lemongrass doesn't have much going for it.

Do you mean that lemongrass hasn't gotten much attention from researchers with respect to high blood pressure? There is, as you said, a single article on "lemongrass hypertension" ... although there are quite a few articles on the antimicrobial properties of lemongrass, the ability of lemongrass to repel mosquitos, anxiolytic and antispasmodic properties, anti-inflammatory and analgesic properties, and so on. So, much of herbalists understanding of the lemongrasses has been verified to varying degrees when it has been investigated. And lemongrass tastes yummy - good for tea or cooking, regardless of how well documented the benefits are. It's also on the GRAS list - 'generally regarded as safe' by the US regulators.

"Combine (hibiscus tea and sesame oil) with a bit of exercise, some weight loss if needed, and regular monitoring of blood pressure, and most people will be good to go."

Are you saying that those suggestions are all that are needed to treat hypertension in most people? What evidence supports that claim?

The mention of weight loss and exercise reminds me of those products that are supposed to be magical for losing weight, "when combined with diet and exercise". ;)

"Do you mean that lemongrass hasn't gotten much attention from researchers with respect to high blood pressure?"

Well yes, that's the context in which it was being discussed. Whether or not it repels mosquitos is not very helpful to people with hypertension.

And even if there was some practical value to herbalists' other claims for lemongrass (yet to be demonstrated), it would be risky in the extreme to conclude that means they must be right about high blood pressure too. It would be like a drug company saying "Well, Supermyxin B kills streptococci, so you should believe us when we say it's real good for the heart too, no studies needed. Trust us." :)

>> Are you saying that those suggestions are all that are needed to treat hypertension in most people? What evidence supports that claim?

First, to clarify, I am referring to mild to moderate essential hypertension, which is descriptive of a majority of people with elevated blood pressure. If someone has a hypertensive crisis, hypertension due to kidney disease or some other condition, that is more serious and a different course of action might be needed. But the average person with hypertension (ie, 'most') fall into the mild to moderate essential hypertension category.

Studies have found that hibiscus (which is both a diuretic and ACE inhibitor) is equivalent to lisinopril in reducing blood pressure - that alone may be enough for some people. One such study is: "Clinical effects produced by a standardized herbal medicinal product of Hibiscus sabdariffa on patients with hypertension. A randomized, double-blind, lisinopril-controlled clinical trial."

For exercise, a sampling of studies include: "Regular arm aerobic exercise leads to a marked reduction in systolic and diastolic blood pressures and an improvement in small artery compliance" and the study "Exercise as the cornerstone of cardiovascular prevention" noted "Exercise ... reduces or prevents hypertension."

Sesame oil has been shown to normalize blood pressure in a number of human and animal studies. The active ingredient sesamin has a number of beneficial effects on blood vessel function.

Hundreds of studies show that obesity is a big risk factor for high blood pressure, and that losing weight is often (but not always) a way to lower blood pressure.

I didn't intend to slight other approaches - for example, the DASH dietary modifications to lower blood pressure: limiting salt, increasing fruits and vegetables, increasing fiber intake, etc. Insulin tolerance is another diet related factor worth looking at - although it is entangled with obesity and a lack of exercise (and exercising and losing weight are considered essential for improving insulin handling).

Most doctors I have talked to now give their patients a few months to deal with mild to moderate hypertension, and threaten drugs to lower blood pressure if the patient can't get it under control. I know several people that have normalized their blood pressure through relatively simple lifestyle changes.

Monitoring is critical - if some one has high bp, it should be treated. But there are a variety of ways to do so.

I'm not questioning whether exercise and weight control can be valuable adjuncts in controlling high blood pressure.

What surprises me is that you'd suggest that people depend on those means plus relatively untried herbal drugs, without emphasizing the need for patients to be evaluated by their physician and have their overall health taken into account.

For example, moderate hypertension in someone who is otherwise healthy with no other risk factors for heart disease and stroke might require minimal initial intervention. Moderate hypertension presenting in an obese smoker showing signs of kidney problems is an entirely different story. No one posting on an Internet forum can know all these clinical factors, which is why it's important to see a physician and receive guidance on the most effective therapies. Telling people that they're "good to go" on sesame oil and lifestyle changes alone without seeking professional care is dangerous advice.

The study you cited about hibiscus supposedly being as good as lisinopril for hypertension is a Mexican pilot study published in an herbalism journal. It followed patients for only four weeks - insufficient time in which to conclude that it's a long-term fix. A recent review of herbal drugs for high pressure (which looked at hibiscus and other products) noted "However...the number of studies is limited and we recommend that further studies be conducted to confirm reported effects. Such evidence is needed to provide scientific credence to the folklore use of traditional medicines and even be helpful in the development of future medicines, treatments and treatment guidelines."

I didn't see you provide any specific citations regarding sesame oil, but I similarly haven't heard of any solid evidence suggesting that it's a valid substitute for known effective drugs for treating hypertension.

>> What surprises me is that you'd suggest that people depend on those means plus relatively untried herbal drugs, without emphasizing the need for patients to be evaluated by their physician and have their overall health taken into account.

This is an herbalism forum, where people discuss herbs. While some people here chastise almost every poster for not seeing a doctor or saying 'see a doctor' or for even considering herbs, I don't. I don't know what the original person's situation is - if they have already seen a doctor, if they can afford to see a doctor. I certainly am not opposed to it, and think it is generally a good idea.

I didn't tell the individual who posted that his/her relative would be 'good to go' - most people who have high blood pressure can treat it, but monitoring is essential to see if the treatment works. Which is why I said what I did about monitoring.

>> The mention of weight loss and exercise reminds me of those products that are supposed to be magical for losing weight, "when combined with diet and exercise". ;)

Except that both hibiscus and sesame oil alone have been shown to have a beneficial effect on blood pressure, and most comprehensive approaches to health state that exercise and diet are key to controlling essential hypertension. I didn't give any references to the sesame oil research, and I'm not inclined to do so now, as you will simply say something along the lines of "oh, a few trials on humans that I think are dubious and a series of worthless trials on rats and cells in test tubes ... that is poor evidence compared to the many multi-million dollar studies from the big companies."

Really, I am convinced that you are both skeptical and hostile to the use of herbs, and that you are not here support the use of herbs, but to work against them.

"This is an herbalism forum, where people discuss herbs. While some people here chastise almost every poster for not seeing a doctor or saying 'see a doctor' or for even considering herbs, I don't."

And where "some people" see herbs as appropriate for self-treating any condition (without any need to get an accurate diagnosis first), I don't.

What you're missing here is the concern over getting people adequately evaluated first by a competent practitioner (in the case of high blood pressure, this should be a physician), and having their options explained accurately to them. It may be that a trial of diet and exercise is enough. It's possible that their doc would be fine with them adding some herb(s) to this plan. Maybe there are preexisting conditions that make this impractical. Only the patient and his/her doctor can make an intelligent decision. We shouldn't presume to have the answers and to give a blanket recommendation for herbs simply because this is an herbalism forum.

As for recommending "monitoring", this is a pretty vague term. "Monitoring" by whom? Under what circumstances? Checking your blood pressure a few times a year using the equipment at the local supermarket?

"I didn't give any references to the sesame oil research, and I'm not inclined to do so now, as you will simply say something along the lines of "oh, a few trials on humans that I think are dubious and a series of worthless trials on rats and cells in test tubes ... that is poor evidence compared to the many multi-million dollar studies from the big companies."

The logical conclusion is then that you can't point to any decent studies on sesame oil.
I have not said that studies on rats and cells in test tubes are "worthless" - but that they cannot be used to justify approving drugs (herbal or non-herbal), as many of these preliminary experiments don't pan out in humans because the drugs turn out to be ineffective, dangerous, or both. And certainly not all published research is equally valuable, even if it's done in humans. There's a world of difference between a trial of a few weeks in a few dozen or couple hundred people in a lesser publication, compared to multicenter trials in thousands of people that last for years and are examined by experienced reviewers for a major scientific publication. Which would you rather trust your health to?

As for the small Mexican study you cited on hibiscus, its defects include (in addition to the very short study period and limited number of participants), the use of lisinopril as a comparison drug (most patients with single-drug treatment for hypertension won't be given this medication, but will get a beta-blocker or diuretic instead). Also, one has to be dubious about that claim of "100% tolerability and safety" for hibiscus, which is touted to work at least in part as a diuretic (I've never heard of any diuretic drugs that didn't come with a set of possible side effects such as weakness and dizziness).

"Really, I am convinced that you are both skeptical and hostile to the use of herbs, and that you are not here support the use of herbs, but to work against them."

I regret that resorting to personal attack is a standard device on your part when relevant arguments fail. I'm fine with herbs when they're demonstrated to be safe and effective, but not with an agenda dedicated to promoting them without regard to whether they're in the patient's best interest.

cziga, hope you're still around. Where exactly is the sharp pains. The med idiots did'nt even think to ask. We'd get a much better idea whats wrong if we knew more about the pain and any other symptoms.
I notice there's a nurse here thats worked much too long in an American hospital and has that grouchy rude attidude that so many nurses have today.

Remember true scientists think the medical Field is more science fiction than science.

Eric, I love the statement that multi million dollar studies are best, Yeah Right! esp ones funded by drug companys and the results had better be what the drug companys said they would be.
lucy, i know RN,s talk about these studies cause i've sat in on some.

By the way i LOVE America. I just hate the American Health Care System
vickie

We're fortunate that in the area of cardiovascular disease (including hypertension) there are well-conducted clinical trials backed by years of experience, that support effective treatments. Simply dismissing all of them as biased on the supposed word of some unknown "RNs" doesn't wash.

Oddly, many of the same people who sneer at comprehensive scientific studies are the first to promote a study of an alternative drug if it seems to support their point of view (even when such a study is on cells in a test tube or is otherwise insufficient to justify sweeping conclusions).

We can be intelligent health care consumers and look at all health care claims carefully. Or we can return to the days of 19th century patent medicines and listen to whoever's testimonials are shouted the loudest.

"Remember true scientists think the medical Field is more science fiction than science."

Can you share with us who these "true scientists" are? :)

eric, eric, I'm not an RN, never said i was. Also firmly beleive in research, just not american style research funded by drug companys and who decides the outcome before the research is done. Germany does great research as does Great Briton, Australia and Canada. I never take USA med research for fact untill i check it out at au or ca or whereever.Are you among the witchcraft science fiction american med bunch? or world wide research bunch.

Abt alternative drug studies, darling,it's non existent in USA. DRUG COMPANIES WONT ALLOW IT. But then you're not in research ,are you? So you would'nt know. Canada is big on herbal research as is Austrailia,GB, Russia, China and more No you wont find that info and other research always on google as great as it is. But eric i can prove the world is flat on google and would you beleive it if a drug companys research said it was.

One of the scientists who did'nt beleive in the med research other than science fiction was George Feynhem of the Feynhem diagrams(probably spelled wrong)but should come up on google anyway.Have you heard of him? er before you googled. It's been awhile but i should come up with more. I don't pay attention to who says somethings,just make a mental note that they beleive as i do. Do you take science periodicals such as AAAS or any professional research periodicals from any branch of science.

eric, What are some of the well founded research done in the cardiovascular field including High Blood Pressure? what about Low blood pressure? Strokes? What causes build up in arteries? Please don't say diet and lack of exercise, It's only one little factor among many most we don't know of. If you answer back please give links since you like them so much. Of course some research you can't link to except to another scientist.I don't really care if you take my word or not. But i would like to see this forum get a fair shake. It's herbs, eric, its herbs.
If you did'nt have tunnel vision about the A Med system. you'd be a smart outstanding guy and a big asset to this forum. I like you.

Here is a link that might be useful: drugs and dementia our wonderful health care

Our own government funds millions of dollars in research each year into alternative medicine. In addition, drug companies spend far more looking into herb/plant-based remedies. We wouldn't have plant-derived drugs like taxol if they didn't believe in their potential.

"No you wont find that info and other research always on google as great as it is. "

In addition to Google, you and anyone else can go to PubMed, a huge database of published research on herbs, other drugs and treatments and scientific work of many kinds. You'll find something like 2200 publications just on Ginkgo biloba (presumably that research that "drug companies won't allow"). ;) The work on hypertension and other facets of cardiovascular disease is also there for you to find.

I couldn't find anything on Doc Feynhem, but maybe you can link to whatever he supposedly said about his field being useless.

You know, there's a reason herbal and other alternative therapies are known as "complementary medicine". Lots of people (including me) think they have a place integrated into comprehensive, evidence-based medical care. It's too bad other folks see herbalism strictly as "alternative" and as a springboard to attack evidence-based care as a whole.

Dear ,dear eric, I truely made a mistake about Richard not George, Feynhem i keep forgetting how long since he's passed. How dare you suggest he was a med doctor! LOL. He had a doctorate ok but in quantum physics.A genius. Like alot of quamtum, particle physicists they like to dabble in medicine but it did,nt challange their minds enough and they usually tired of all the nuts and their witchcraft theorys in the medical field.LOL There's a current genius in the field in England that also has a poor view of American Health care.

Our GOV funds millions of dollars etc... Sorry eric not in the last 8 years everything for research in every field has been cut drasticly.Do you have any idea what terrible shape the CDC is in right now? Researchers laid off ,staff laid off. equipment not working, buildings about to fall down.Whats scary. t
Think of all the bad microbes in those conditions. Scientists there have been begging the gov for help to no avail.I bet you wont find that on google either. Nor those of geologists meteorologists in gov agencys either. nevertheless it's all true. It's obvious you don't take any scientific journals. Just the bits and pieces you can pick up off google. Buts that's allright theres nothing wrong with that. Most people don't. Heaven knows there's a huge amount of things i don't know about. Something that totally blows my mind is understanding people and i've had sociology, a dozen psychologys and i still don't have a clue unless they're really mentally ill. Like Einstein said "There are only two absolutes -the endlessness of the universe and the stupidity of man.(meaning mankind)
i freely admit what i don't know. Medical research you'll never trip me up on except for my own stupid mistakes in names and spelling. Remind me to tell you the long long story of the great diagnosis i got from an idiot doctor after thousands of dollars worth of tests and what i really had. Which is why i can't always remember peoples names and don't always recognise mispelled words.One of three horrible misdiagnosis i've had. Which is why i started researching the American Health care system. The more i find the worse they are.

Below is a link to lisinopril one of the tin gods of medicines precious drugs for high blood pressure. If any one is taking lisinopril please read this. I promise its medically approved info.

Here is a link that might be useful: everything known about lisinopril

"Our GOV funds millions of dollars etc... Sorry eric not in the last 8 years everything for research in every field has been cut drasticly"

The National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (a division of NIH) currently spends about $120 million a year for research into alternative therapies, and that annual figure has been stable the last few years. Add to that all the university-based and private pharmaceutical company research done on plant-derived drugs, and there continues to be a ton of research in this area.

For whatever reason the CDC is a favorite target of certain anti-mainstream medicine advocates (including antivaccination groups), but it is not in "terrible shape" and continues to be a major force for collecting and disseminating health information and doing research.

Still have no idea what Richard (or George) "Feynhem" might have to do with accurate information about science and medicine, or for that matter any other, anonymous "dabblers' in medicine.

The relevance of lisinopril to this forum is questionable, since no one here is promoting it and it is not typically used as a first-line treatment for mild to moderate hypertension in any case.

eric sweetheart, As much as i enjoy researching facts scientifically. I just don't have the time to research all the scientific stuff you need to know, for free. I simply have too much other things to do. So i'll have to stop trying to educate you. The only reason i came to this forum is because i just recently got into taking herbs seriously as medicine and have a lot to learn and figured there were a lot of knowledgeable people here and still think there
are. Hope they don't mind me asking questions. I am only interested in herbal info tho.I'm really not a bad person. Type my user name in search at the top of the page and read some of my posts. As for the med people i'll leave them alone too. I apoligise to the regular forum members for stealing into a couple of threads.
eric, you can go to college or university libraries locally for free and read their professional periodicals. I think you'd really injoy it. I can see you like to learn. Yes i mean that.
vickie

Vickie, are you aware that Eric IS a doctor (and certainly knows how to research things)?

Lucy, No i did'nt but i should have guessed thinking back on what he's said. I still think he would injoy reading professional journals. I'm not being ugly just truthful. Doctors do not impress me in the least.The only people that impress me are the hard sciences doctors, like in physics,astronomy,archeology,geology etc...Sorry just the way i am. I have a couple of friends who are medical doctors. One who is a great doctor.Not for his knowledge but for his caring and love for his patients. It is that which gives him the ability to look for and ask questions of his patients and really determine what their problem is and then he does tests and very rarely is wrong saving his patients and himself time and money.Lucy, you yourself know this is so rare in a doctor.I'm afraid it's all but disappered.(SP)

Remember the days when nurses wore white uniforms ,caps and ruled the hospitals with an iron hand. I was a teenager in highschool working as a nurses aide evenings and weekends. The head nurse was like that and no one including doctors dared talk back to her and yet her #1 concern was always for and to the patients.I saw her once sit for a half hour holding the hand of a dieing woman. Ten minutes later she was telling a doctor in no uncertain terms that she expected him to be at the hosp in ten minutes when she called to say someone was about to deliver. I really loved that job and my head nurse. That was a long time ago. and i have digressed again.Lucy i apoligise for getting huffy with you in another thread.While i'm stealing the thread any way. Do you know any herb good for high BP. I'm going to quit taking my BP meds next month.Oh and throw away my spygmomanometer. LOL
vickie

Hi again... Yes, I remember those days alright - I've worked in hosps all my life (a looong time :-) and have seen lots of things, but do think there are still more MD's that care a lot, even if some are more rushed now than they used to be. What I think you should do, much as you might not like what I say, is to not just throw away your meds (cut off your nose to spite your face :-) as you will be the one to suffer - while you might feel impatient and frustrated with things now, having a stroke won't help anything! You need to give things a decent chance to help, but if there are side effects you can't live with, give the docs the chance to change your meds, or find out what's causing the trouble to begin with. Don't you think if there was a nice, easy to take and inexpensive herb, etc. with no side effects out there that trad medicine would have not only found it, but made lots of $$ from it by now? Somethings don't yet have instant 'cures', but until some are found, we should at least be glad there are meds that help.

The "good old days" also included far fewer treatment options for cardiovascular disease, plus it was considerably more difficult for patients to research them and arrive at care plan decisions with their physicians ("ruling with an iron hand" wasn't only a management style for head nurses).
I hope you won't throw away your blood pressure medications and attempt herbal self-treatment without discussing the situation with your physician(s) and finding out if there's a way your treatment can be improved. Dropping your meds may not make you feel worse in the short term, but there's a reason hypertension is known as the "silent killer".

"I still think he would injoy reading professional journals. I'm not being ugly just truthful."

What would make you think that I don't subscribe to and read professional journals, not to mention having had articles published in some of them (I've quoted from and linked to plenty of articles in this forum)?

"I just don't have the time to research all the scientific stuff you need to know, for free."

Good, reliable information is out there (see the thread on herbalism-related links) if you decide your health is important enough to invest the time.

Actually, that's another point in doctors' favor... the fact they do the research for you. We've all gotten so used to Googling things that we forget we don't have to do it - our MD's will research for us.

>> Actually, that's another point in doctors' favor... the fact they do the research for you. We've all gotten so used to Googling things that we forget we don't have to do it - our MD's will research for us.

Sure, you can turn over all decision making to your doctor, your mechanic, your investment broker. I prefer to find good doctors, mechanics and brokers to work for me, with me. And a second (or third) opinion is useful - when insurance wont pay and it would cost hundreds or thousands for that second opinion, the internet may make sense. Case in point:

My wife was diagnosed with autoimmune thyroiditis and sent to an endocrinologist - a specialist paid big bucks to understand such conditions. My wife asked him directly if there were dietary changes that might help. He said no. We found a published study that found that a large number of people with that condition improve markedly if they eliminate all wheat from their diet. My wife gave it a shot, and within a few days, improved remarkably. Over time, her anti-thyroid antibody levels have dropped to near normal, and her T3 and T4 thyroid hormone levels are normal. A slight trace of wheat will bring the symptoms back, and eating out is nightmare. But her life returned to very near normal. Which certainly would not have happened if she followed Lucy's advice. The wife's conclusion: At the end of the day, the doctor goes home with your money, while you go home with your problems.

I come across exactly one (1) doctor in my city that has a reasonable knowledge of herbs - and to even find that doctor required doing some research online. There may be others, but the average person is not likely to encounter them when looking for medical advice. All of the other doctors I have seen evidenced little knowledge of herbs and most were skeptical or even hostile.

What your wife seems to have, coincidentally I think, as do many others today, is intolerance to gluten, and a gluten free diet will improve many conditions. She may even have been misdiagnosed, everyone assuming that her TSH levels were the 'end of the story', but they may have been incidental to her other problem(s).

What apollog's anecdote doesn't mention is that it has been physicians and medical researchers who have developed evidence about the connection between celiac disease and autoimmune thyroiditis in some patients, and who have raised the level of awareness about screening for gluten intolerance in such patients. Slighting the entire medical community because one specialist allegedly didn't make the connection does not make sense.

"At the end of the day, the doctor goes home with your money, while you go home with your problems."

Translation: Doctors don't care. Apparently in apollog's view, doctors don't have these problems themselves or have family and friends with the same troubles, and are somehow just disconnected figures immune from these problems. Physicians do care deeply about patients - it's why they stay in the field in the face of the long hours and many frustrations.

This "us against them" mentality on the part of many alt med advocates not only leads them away from good care, it prompts them to discourage others with serious, treatable conditions from finding help.

I wish we could spend more time promoting complementary medicine (implying a partnership between the best of herbalism and mainstream medicine), rather than trying to establish herbalism as a substitute health doctrine.

Thanks guys, lucy, i'm not just throwing away my meds all at once and i'm not doing it on a cut off my nose to spite my face attidude.I'm trying to save mine and my daughters life for as long as i can. We have between us had 5 horrible misdiagnosis by doctors that have left both of us disabled in differant ways and are on disability because of it. The reason i have CHF is because of diabetic meds i took for years.I had a stroke because of another medication prescribed. Had almost a 3month bad reaction to another drug even tho it was on my records not to give it to me.The doctor forgot to read that page for the reactions i had before.I did'nt have to pay for that hospitalization.Because they thought i'd sue. I was hospitalized for severe pain in the left back upper abdomen and was dehydrated,high temp,high wbc. Ihad sat at home in pain for 5 days because of my warrented distrust of doctors. Went to emergency room ,was admitted. However the ER record that showed a large kidney stone blocking the tube at the kidney was left in ER.Floor dr. could'nt come up with diagnosis, however bp had shot up So dr gives me lisenopril in hosp.Turns out as with a few other drugs i had a one in 10,000 reaction to drug. temp up, slight rash and my throat started slowly swelling.Nurses said i was having a panic attack and had lain on my pillow wrong and had a crick in neck.I lay like that over nite till i could'nt talk and was having trouble breathing. When things were finally under controll again My DD asked the dr. What about the kidney stone? Dr. said "what kidney stone? After an MRI, i was transferred to another hosp and emergency surgery done.The kidney dr. said he did'nt know how i stood the pain that long.Sometimes the pain is better than the cure.DD,s lawer wanted me to sue, said i had an ironclad case. I do not sue people because that could not make me whole and that is all i want.
That is not all thats happened to me and my dd in the health care system nor anywhere near all my health problems. bu it's all i'll talk about for now anyway.Does that give you an indication of my feelings for health care. Yes i have a resonable dr now and no i would'nt tell you if he told me to forget medical care and go for the herbs.I'm not stupid either and i like this man.
eric, my feelings do not reflect on you in any way. I don't understand this prolong life attitude. For what? The quality? I'm not afraid to die and i wont go looking for death either. Obviously i'm not afraid of pain either.If i take care of myself i'll probably have less of it.
No i don't think dr.s care either except when it applys to them or their familys along with apollig and most of the populace. Eric again i'm not saying you are like this but this is how the med field is perceived by many. i also wish the med profession and herbalism could peacefully join together and in some countrys this is and has always been so. Just not here. but more importantly the patients and doctors and nurses need to peacefully join together. The populace needs to be educated in basic understanding of medicine and health and the med field needs to be educated on talking on a level playing field to patients. Patients are much more intelligent than most med field people think. They are in general just lazy. LOL! Eric, as far as i know you do talk to and understand your patients .but most dr,s don't. When standard billing practice is to charge the patients for all care and meds caused by doctors mistakes, What can you expect?
The way i put researching, on google i was misunderstood. That is what i do. I enjoy it. but not to have to proove everything i say on line. Tomorrow i'll address the other thread. just glancing through i saw a link to an
herb that might help me. Thanks much. I'll thankfully look into it.
See you tomorrow.
vickie

We seem to have gotten far away from what herbs might be useful for treating high blood pressure, into a general exposition of Why Medicine Is Bad.

My wife and I have been to numerous doctors over the years. Most were competent if not especially laden with interpersonal skills. Some (including, thankfully, the current ones we see) are fine at both their craft and dealing with people. There are a few we're happy to not ever have to encounter again.

I can understand that people who've had bad experiences with doctors might be turned off to the point that they're tempted by alternative "healers" who promise wondrous results without effort or side effects, and who work at displaying a sympathetic front and spending lots of time with their clients. The medical profession can take a lesson from some of these folks on satisfying patients.

The wrong lesson for all parties is to conclude that non-evidence-based care is the way to go, however satisfying it might appear from a philosophical or folklore standpoint.

When people talk about bad experiences with physicians as a reason to discard the whole system, I think about those who've run into people they feel are bad cops or sleazy lawyers. Few would suggest that the answer in that case is to discard our laws and embrace anarchy.

And anarchy is what we'll wind up with if we decide that facts and science don't matter in health care, and it comes down to who can market themselves most effectively and shout testimonials the loudest.

It doesn't have to come down to that choice. There are many who believe in working to validate the most promising elements of alternative care and making it part of our knowledge and practice base. In that event, everyone benefits.

>> What apollog's anecdote doesn't mention is that it has been physicians and medical researchers who have developed evidence about the connection between celiac disease and autoimmune thyroiditis in some patients, and who have raised the level of awareness about screening for gluten intolerance in such patients. Slighting the entire medical community because osne specialit allegedly didn't make the connection does not make sense.

You missed the point entirely. Lucy suggested that we not trouble our beautiful little minds and merely ask the doctor what to do - no need to use the internet to do research, no need to be an active participant in our health beyond carrying out the doctors orders. The Great Oz knows all, sees all!! Which is humbug, in my mind.

I think its great that someone did the studies on wheat and the thyroid. But having talked to a few dozen middle aged women with thyroid problems, I can tell you that not one of them was educated on a possible gluten-thyroid connection by their doctors. There is a major disconnect between knowledge and practice, and having informed patients can reduce this disconnect. I think that is a legitimate criticism of how medicine is practiced in this country.

I think it's a very good idea to do your own homework on a medical condition and have questions and suggestions for your doctor. Most welcome such input.

I don't think that everything one can Google is of equal value. Much of the information out there is obsolete, biased or flat wrong. You need to be able to filter out the worthless stuff and locate the facts. It's for this reason I started a thread on good sites for information on herbalism.

That's all I plan to say here, unless someone has additional questions or comments about herbs and high blood pressure.

Lemon Balm can be easily grown and is good for lowering blood pressure even just the scent of crushed lemon balm can be effective.

One reason it's not always the best idea to ignore MD's in favor of your own research is that while some of you may be quite well versed in 'doctor speak', many are not and years of hearing patients with a LITTLE knowledge just freak out from having completely misunderstood and misinterpreted things they've read, whether on the net, some journal they found, or whatever, has shown that it's important for them to at least ask a medical prof about what they think they've discovered (usually that they're about to die from 10 different conditions that just happen to have one or any number of similar sounding symptoms that they may have experienced at one time or another). Without a clear understanding of the relationship between particular symptoms, particular conditions and knowing how to interpret what's written as to e.g. the degree of pathology expressed by a number/statistic in the way a doctor would grasp it, rather than assuming that certain terms always mean what they would in the 'outside' world (not medical), patients can make themselves sick just by misunderstanding - and then running off to find treatments for their own misdiagnoses!

I like lemon balm. Even though drying the leaf leads to loss of the joyous lemon scent, the dried stuff is still good for anxiety and lowering blood pressure.

I like lemon balm too apollog and lwowk and grow it abundantly and give starts to everyone i know. It's a shame mints don't come true to seed. I would seed the world with lemon balm. It smells refreshing like (to me) orange pekoe tea tastes.
i'll have to drink more of it. Mostly i mix it in herbal teas and even make a strong brew and use the brew in bakeing also have made sachets with it.

very glad to know it's good for high BP.
Thanks

Apart from controlling calories, dietary intervention for controlling high blood pressure could include drinking more cranberry juice and seasoning your food with oregano and rosemary.

The evidence for a major effect on BP is similar to that for lemon balm (meaning not a lot), but why not include them in your diet?

It's also been suggested that cranberry juice can raise your level of "good" (HDL) cholesterol.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cranberry juice, blood lipids and weight loss

>> Apart from controlling calories, dietary intervention for controlling high blood pressure could include drinking more cranberry juice and seasoning your food with oregano and rosemary.
>> The evidence for a major effect on BP is similar to that for lemon balm (meaning not a lot), but why not include them in your diet?

Lemon Balm is a rich source of rosmarinic acid and related compounds (as is rosemary, the use of which you suggested). Lemon balm inhibits angiotensin converting enzymes on par with rosemary, but Lemon Balm lacks the strong pine flavor of rosemary, which some people find rather intense (and which limits the use of roseamary).

Lemon balm also inhibits the enzyme GABA-transaminase and raises GABA levels, which opens blood vessels and lowers blood pressure.