Well, you may call me mean... that may work for you. I just feel that I am so sick of fad diets and people looking for miracle herbs to help with weight loss... I don't feel that my looking at things honestly and saying "Just stop giving yourself excuses" is negative. In fact, the way you seem to have given up seems more negative to me. I am not flaming YOU and calling YOU bad names... I am just tired of so much diet whining... and people diving into low carb diets and such that never work.. getting fatter as the days go on. I have gained weight.. I am normal, BUT I TRY to stay fit, and I tell ya, I have a hell of a lot more health problems than you do, and I don't make exscuses for myself. I have HIV/Hep C, menopause, arthritis and asthma... and I at least try to walk everyday! Sheez! And one of the reasons that I am not obese, in a family that tends to fat anyway, is because I keep trying to get some exercise. I have seen my mother cry, because she is more active than most at her age, and she is still overweight... but she refuses to get more aerobic exercise... so, that's her choice. So, you can know that I come from a family that tends to overweightness.
I was thinking about having my friend who lost 80lbs come in here and testify... she used to call me and tell me that she couldn't give up her chocolate, because she LIKES it... and I would say, okay... but you won't lose weight. I like a lot of things, but doesn't mean I can have all of it. MODERATION. Anyway, she feels the same way I do... all of her obese coworkers who come up with excuses when she and another friend walk during lunch... you make excuses... that's fine, but don't look for a miracle cure to lose weight... there is none... it's just all hard work. So, if this is negative... sure, I'll wave my magic wand, that's probably more positive for you.

I can see how my words seemed mean to you and i appologize for that. I'm not really into details and maybe i left some important ones out to state my point.
What exactly am i making excuses for? I eat healthier than anyone i know and i exercise daily. I didn't say it can't work for some people i said it doesn't always work and for people to think they know the habits of someone because they are overweight is a societal problem we have that is not always true. I lost 93 lbs in my 20's by exercise and diet....i dont need your friend to give a testimonial..obviously she is one that it worked for. I don't see why you would lie about that. Your friends experience is not in question here.
this time when i gained weight, it wasn't from over eating, it was from a medication i was on and 70lbs packed on in 3 months. More details to make my point...when i went on this strict program to lose the weight...i did already have a lot of muscle. The personal trainer at the gym had to go up from where he started on weights with me by 50lbs in most cases except the preacher curl but that would be amazing for a woman that wasn't a body builder to start out at 90lbs on the preacher curl. I only lost 1.3 % body weight in the eight months and 4lbs.
Again...maybe the holistic gurus are correct and it is more of a mind thing than we like to consider. It might help you to check it out since you have all these problems. I completely healed my arthritis and bone spurrs through emotional healing and breath work. They were ready to cut me open and i wouldn't do it...i found a better way. so, for me i will continue to work on being less sensitive and changing my thought process to overcome this problem of weight. In the mean time if one person changes their judgements on fat people from this post, the world will be a better place for all people to live in harmony.

I have taken many meds that made me gain a lot of weight, but luckily for me, I got off them. So, I know what you are talking about. You are totally missing my point. I have nothing against fat people. What I have angst about is the fad diet industry that caters to people who don't really want to do the work to diet. I have also seen people who would rather choose to die of AIDS than possibly get a little bit of exercise. Literally, they'd rather die than exercise. You may be one of the few who work hard at it, but not many of the ones in my personal life. There are obviously a lot of people who would do anything to not change their lifestyle, because why would there be so many diet pills advertised on tv?
I use yoga breathing to help me through menopause, and I have used lots of herbs for allergies, asthma and my menopause, but sometimes in some situations, the best thing to do is to try to get at the root of the problem,and for obesity,mostly it is diet and exercise. I see all the time on the news, countries which have been influenced by American diets have started having trouble with obesity. So, you really think an herb will help them? Or breathing?
I even think that just being FIT is better than being thin. The medical industry keeps pounding us with the importance of at least getting 20 minutes of aerobic exercise 3 times a week... and still people can't even do that. So, yes, if someone's obesity is due to bad diet and lack of exercise, and they want to lose weight. The ONLY healthy way to do it and to KEEP it off is to change your way of thinking about food and get some exercise. I don't see possibly how you could change my opinion. Maybe this is closedmindedness, but to me, it is just reality. They say the same thing to people about quitting smoking... when you want to do it bad enough, you will do it, irregardless of all the aids there are to help you quit. Same thing with losing weight for the common type of obesity... when you really want to lose weight, you will do it the right way. But you have to WANT to. Drinking vinegar won't do it for you. If you take in more calories than you burn, it will turn to fat.

..Well..phew Sorry to catch up to some unhappy reading, Just thought I would check in. It is day 49 for me on the Master Cleanser, and I have begun the rebuild steps. I have lost over 40 lbs, and am expecting to gain back 5 or so as I begin back on solid foods, and begin muscle building. I anticipate about a 10lb increase overall, this is realistic. I really would encourage both of you, to if nothing else give Stanley Burroughs book a read, and more importantly encourage you to try the cleanse!..It has been around for a long time, many people sicker than yourself have had amazing results! It's been around since the 1940's

Is it a Fear that you have to try it?..I would love for you to give it a go, and post your findings here. It sounds like Both of you have never tried it, and there is nothing for you to loose in doing so!

As it sounds to me, Both of you are on medications, and I would encourage you to consult your Physicians before starting it, If you really feel that it can't help you, then proove me wrong, DO IT, and post it here.
I will continue to post updates for others to see in my positive way!

heathen1. Two of the things you state you suffer from are arthritis, and asthma, I asked you a few posts back how much dairy you consume!? This is something that I am curious about and still researching.

I am not trying to sell anything, I just want you to read a book!..it's probably at the library!..as I said it's been around since the 1940's

In the past couple of months I have come into conversations with people that I work with, two people recently told me that they not only do the cleanse on an annual basis, but conveyed stories about their friends who had amazing stories. One had a brain tumor that has now shrunk to a size that is considered non life threatening 60 days on the cleanse, no medications! The other had Cancer which has now gone. I am sure that there are many other stories out there, and equally as many doubters!...Perhaps one day there might even be a Website of results if someone had the time. Until then it is up to you, try it!

..The higher the Vibration, the healthier the Soul!
it's no Fad diet..IT WORKS...and the book has many things that "cosmiccornucopia", you will no doubt agree with! It is all about life change, and sounds like you both could use it!

..I send my good thoughts to you both, and the others that have read this far!..I feel great and will continue to post here for proof sake! lol

From this site on nutrition quackery:

"Testimonial evidence is by definition biased and unreliable. Scientists report their studies in reputable journals, where their work is reviewed and evaluated by other scientists prior to publication. Controlled experiments that can be confirmed by repeating the study are the best way to document the truth of the information."

Sunkist... I don't consume much dairy... my sister and my Japanese BF are both lactose intolerant, I have milk in my coffee and that's about it. I love cheese, but don't eat it much as it gives me phlegm when I jog. :o) My Dad had very bad asthma as a child, back when they just kept you in bed. So I inherited it. I betcha though, if I didn't live in California's polluted air, my asthma would be better. If there was better healthcare in small towns, I'm so outta here! :o)
I don't really need to lose much weight... maybe 5lbs. And with my diseases, it's more important that I eat healthy than I stay skinny. Which is another reason why fitness is so important to me... there are studies with AIDS patients that just some simple mild weight lifting can boost their immunity. You might understand why fitness is so important to me. So much health information around me. I am a new convert to nettle tea for asthma, I used to drink a ton of mullein tea... definitely works, but nettle lasts longer. But I don't drink it for a long time, due to it's side affects.
Eric: Nutrition quacks promote false and/or unproven nutrition products or services for a profit. Quacks can be sincere and misguided individuals, as well as charlatans and frauds. Quackery is successful because we want to believe in something "magical" that can improve performance more than hard training or a prudent diet. :o) This is my mantra! :D But... people so want something magickal, as you can see by my banging my head against the wall. Specially here in the US, where EVERYTHING is supposed to come easily.
Quackery is a harsh word... and you have to take into consideration the "placebo effect". now the placebo effect wouldn't work if the brain wasn't a powerful organ that controls the body. I think that a lot of placebos might work, but only temporarily... just like any "fad diet" because people get on these diets and cleanses, but they don't stick with them... one HAS to change one's life permanently, you can't do a diet or a cleanse or a magical potion for awhile, then quit and go back to your old lifestyle... it's doomed to failure. You may lose weight... but when you stop, you just gain it back all the faster.
But this is already known.. .everyone knows this and just keeps doing it... I think that as long as the culture of the US is a culture of excess, we will just keep getting fatter.

....Hail the GREAT ERIC OH !

From this site on nutrition quackery:
"Testimonial evidence is by definition biased and unreliable. Scientists report their studies in reputable journals, where their work is reviewed and evaluated by other scientists prior to publication. Controlled experiments that can be confirmed by repeating the study are the best way to document the truth of the information."

Yes once again backing into your safe corner of backed scientific proof!!..lol
E=MC2...that was good until proof of a "Blackhole" in space!

..Another sponsered link you post..yikes..do you have a life at all!?..I asked you many posts ago, what good insight you have etc. you have posted and offended many all over the sight, however, I hear you have a nice garden, and some nice pictures!...Again You must be in perfect health, and have much to share with us ...do tell !..and You have Never tried the Master Cleanser, so why don't you ?..

sci·ence (s?'?ns)
n.
The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.
An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.

Once again think of the young grads from Harvard putting together their Master thesis etc. on some study like, Drinking coffee everyday is not harmful!..yes..you here them on the radio all the time...

Look Eric we all can agree that the scientific community is the proofing ground for many things, yet we must all agree that you can't beleive all that you read, or hear!..You spend hours and hours I would venture to say, on the internet, and at this web site trying to argue your point from an arm chair, so to speak.

What schooling do you have Eric!..and why is it that you are so negative in your posts?

"Controlled experiments that can be confirmed by repeating the study are the best way to document the truth of the information.".....Sure... that reminds me of the Electric Shock Therapy that was used in mental facilities...well Eric was that a good proofing by the Scientific Comunity !?

Here is some more reading for you Eric, as you love to be so Correct !
* Definitions

(Every article, book, paper, etc. should always include definitions as well as a bibliography or reference section.)
Introduction to the Scientific Method

The scientific method is the process by which scientists, collectively and over time, endeavor to construct an accurate (that is, reliable, consistent and non-arbitrary) representation of the world.

Recognizing that personal and cultural beliefs influence both our perceptions and our interpretations of natural phenomena, we aim through the use of standard procedures...

Sunkist! aaaaah, wow... okay... I think that you just stated the EXACT reason, when there's a new study out, I tend to withhold judgement until there's another to back it up... I am a HUGE skeptic. I think that both "herbal" and "scientific" studies can be flawed. For example, I am skeptical at the new study that says echinacea doesn't work. Well, why'd they tell AIDS victims not to take it, because it stimulated the body to put out INFECTED t-cells? So... were they lying? So, I am skeptical about that...
but then I am also skeptical about new herbal miracles... I just can't believe in "miracles". Maybe because people who are open with their status get bombarded with emails on miracle HIV cures from 3rd world countries.... "How the government is keeping secret this plant that I've never heard of is curing AIDS (where?) in 3rd world coutries...(WHERE? I thought they died FASTER there) if I just send $$$ they will send me a sample" I have a friend who buys into EVERYTHING... he still thinks that oxygenating himself will cure stuff.... This is the stuff that I consider quakery. I WISH that Western Medicine and Herbalism will get together and work together so that "belief" won't enter into it... we will KNOW. so that we won't have people shutting out one for the other. I think that it's as just as ridiculous to shut out western medicine as it is to shut out herbalism.... but to me, healthy skepticism is healthy.

It's sort of weird to be told that I'm spending too much time on the Internet, by someone who then goes out and posts one of the longest, most complicated messages ever seen in this forum. :)

Much of it looks like it was cut and pasted from some other site, in which case it would be nice to know the author.

For those of us with limited time to spend, could you summarize the parts that have to do with the alleged effectiveness of cider vinegar and the "Master Cleanse" in promoting weight loss? (minus unrelated personal attacks, please).

..Limited time to spend.....lol
..Easy..Google the definition of science!...done that, then google The Master Cleanser..If you had taken the time to do so several posts back you would have the information as it relates to weight loss..

..here, this might help you..
http://www.answers.com/topic/science
http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Editorials/Vol-1/e1-3.htm
http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html

The reason I posted the Definitions of science etc. was due to this post of yours..

"Testimonial evidence is by definition biased and unreliable. Scientists report their studies in reputable journals, where their work is reviewed and evaluated by other scientists prior to publication. Controlled experiments that can be confirmed by repeating the study are the best way to document the truth of the information."

.....................another link as stated, to a "Sponsered Site"..! ?

How does it relate to this forum of discussion on weight loss?..it doesn't ! it is more an attempt of yours to discredit any testimonials made!..aka personal attack !

Instead you have not posted any personal experience with regards to weight loss pertaining to the effectiveness of the "Master Cleanser", nor have you given any answers relating to the questions regarding personal experience, education, or your own personal health, notice how others here are using their own personal experience as a guide to perhaps a better understanding, and place from which to learn and draw experience from.

As on most of your posts you love to be the "Armchair Philosopher", and would have us beleive that you have all this advice to give, however much of it is founded on your time spent on the internet, and the links along the way !

http://www.sciencedaily.com/cgi-bin/apf4/amazon_products_feed.cgi?Operation=ItemLookup&ItemId=0963926209
http://curezone.com/cleanse/bowel/master_cleanse.asp

I have posted and given my personal experience with regards to the effectiveness of weight loss as it relates to the master cleanser, and how I have intended to use the Unrefined Natural Cider Vinegar combined with Various oils, as part of a greater dietary plan to continue a healthier program of eating. Yes..it includes exercise !

"I'd certainly agree about eating more fresh vegetables and fruit. And vinegar of various kinds helps make a good salad dressing.
And to take the liberty of repeating lazygarden's advice in the current thread on cholesterol (since it also applies to weight loss):
Try exercise - a half-hour of brisk walking a day. "

Vinegar of various kinds..be careful here, do take the time to read about vinegar, as some of it may be made from a derivative from coal tar. This was a good bit of advice Eric, please do post the link to that thread on cholesterol, as the last time I started looking I ran out of time, however I managed to read all about.................. coconut oil,.... thanks ! ;)

....Ahhh...

Okay... Just to confuse things more... no one has ever answered my question. Here it is... I make wine, so, I know also how to make vinegar, some which is made by mistake! So, here's briefly how to make it.... I copied this off a site...
The following steps must be followed to make a high-quality cider vinegar:

Make a clean cider from ripe apples.

Change all of the fruit sugar to alcohol. This is called "yeast fermentation."

Change all of the alcohol to acetic acid. This is called "acetic acid fermentation."

Clarify the acetic acid to prevent further fermentation and decomposition.

So, you take 5 gals of cider and ferment it, then turn it to vinegar... So what in this would make you lose weight? The apple cider? the mother of vinegar? the alcohol yeast? If it's not the cider itself, then why can't you drink wine vinegar and lose weight?
I'd really like to know, before I condemned it or promoted it.

...Hope this helps you, please go to this site and read the information.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20041101/1731.html

I would not recommend the use of ACV for weight loss..However I do suggest using it along with many of the healthy oils to make a healthy dressing ;)
..Do read up on the many oils..as mentioned earlier. :)

(It is ironic that at the bottom of this page, as you post,..all of the Yahoo sponsored links pointing to ACV are there !..lol)

"Instead you have not posted any personal experience with regards to weight loss pertaining to the effectiveness of the "Master Cleanser", nor have you given any answers relating to the questions regarding personal experience, education, or your own personal health, notice how others here are using their own personal experience as a guide to perhaps a better understanding, and place from which to learn and draw experience from."

This statement about testimonials reflects a common misunderstanding.

Due to the anonymity provided by the Internet, anyone can post on this forum about how wonderful a particular remedy is, how it helped them to lose 50 pounds, gain back their libido, cure all manner of diseases and grow hair (in wanted places). Aside from all the deficiencies of testimonials (such as whether the person ever really had the stated condition in the first place), the central fact is that none of us really know just who the people giving these testimonials are, and what their motivations might be. We've had numerous supplement spammers on this forum disguised as ordinary posters - as one example, not long ago there was a poster preaching about the alleged anticancer activity of a particular fruit, and linking to his website, which characterized him as a supporter of research and development of product(s) based on this fruit. It was only after months of posting that he finally admitted that he ran a supplement company.

Regular posters to this forum know me to be an MD. Rather than expecting people to take my word for it, I provide links to reputable sites and bona fide research articles. People can make decisions, if they wish, on the basis of science and clinical trials, instead of commercial hype and anonymous testimonials.

There also is a mistaken notion that questioning an idea and asking for evidence constitutes some kind of assault that permits a poster to volley back with personal insults. Beyond that, some folks apparently hope that if they can generate a flame war, the confusion will cover up a lack of such evidence.

Looking at the links sunkist provided, we've got general descriptions of scientific methods, a book review and more testimonials. Since there are no research studies showing that "cleanses", purging with laxatives etc. are effective and safe means of losing weight and keeping it off long-term, forum users will have to decide for themselves whether to rely on proven methods (including diet and exercise) or accept testimonials for products that offer appealing shortcuts, but have not been shown to work.

As to the argument that "you've got to try it yourself first before saying it's no good", there are limits to which any of us can be expected to be a guinea pig. For instance, on the CureZone site to which sunkist linked, there are a bunch of people devoted to drinking their own urine for supposed health benefits. That one can be debunked without any need for going on a personal...

For those who find testimonial evidence convincing, here's one story you might find interesting.

British health regulators have also begun an investigation of claims made for "cleansing" diets. This follows a BBC program in which several doctors agreed to be guinea pigs and go on "detox" programs. While this sort of thing makes an entertaining stunt, in reality it's just more personal testimonial evidence - somewhat more reliable than an anonymous blurb on a website, but still no substitute for a well-conducted clinical trial.

It's interesting that the British system requires licensing based on proof of safety and efficacy, before a supplement seller is permitted to make medical claims. Regulations are much looser in the U.S., meaning less protection for consumers.

AHA! Eric, you are an MD.... what KIND of MD are you? I partially blame the medical industry for this "magic bullet" problem... after the discovery of penicillan, most doctors have been what I call "pill pushers". Just take a pill for this, just take a pill for that. It's only been recently that some of the younger doctors are BEGINNING to come out of that and are realizing that their pill pushing has caused problems. I have seen for example, instead of recommending diet and exercise for high blood pressure... just take a pill! and on and on. For example, at my clinic, there's the gynocologist... this woman is amazing, she's also a pharmacist. She treats women's gynocological problems in a "whole body" way. And she's kinda considered a MAVERICK.
I have found myself arguing with SOME docs about myself and pills, I know my body best.... I don't care how much schooling they've had. I was always right. :o) Now, I just choose doctors for their open minds, Yer out of medical school now, you can THINK for yourself. (I told this to one female intern once, who told me there were NO nerves in the cervix??? WHAT? are you an idiot?)
This is one reason why people distrust Western medicine. A LOT of doctors don't bother taking the patient into consideration when diagnosing and prescribing. They kind of have themselves on a pedestal, dispensing medicine in a god-like way, forgetting that they are offering a service and the customer is always right. :o) I had a doc go off, write me a prescription, hand me the tag and walk off, all irritated when I made him come back and tell me the side-affects of said medicine. And take my word for it, some HIV meds have INTENSE side-affects. I guess I was just wasting his time.
Okay... end of my grump. :o)

..AAHH the Doctor is out of the closet!..

I have posted my own website for all to see, several posts back...feel free to contact me..

This site;
http://www.thedietchannel.com/quack.htm
Hardly a reputable site !
More a Giant site for all the Diet sponsers.! get real!
This site I posted, I am sure the doctor can understand
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20041101/1731.html

......"Regular posters to this forum know me to be an MD. "
..So you Claim! lol.. Post your own web site for us!..if you have one.

"the central fact is that none of us really know just who the people giving these testimonials are, and what their motivations might be. We've had numerous supplement spammers on this forum disguised as ordinary posters - as one example, not long ago there was a poster preaching about the alleged anticancer activity of a particular fruit, and linking to his website, which characterized him as a supporter of research and development of product(s) based on this fruit. It was only after months of posting that he finally admitted that he ran a supplement company"

I notice that you use the plural "we" and "us"...who is it you are refering to ?..Implying ownership !? Sounds to me like a "paycheck !"..Who is it you work for ?

We should wonder what sort of a Doctor has the time to be at this gardenweb site, and that they would probably hate this site
http://www.gcnm.com/

I am surprised a "Doctor" has never heard of the Master Cleanser. Walk in to any Health Food store, and I am sure you will find it, and someone will know about it. You can and will find people that have tried it , talk with them, ask them about it, then you are dealing with real people. First hand proof is exactly that..
..Just for the heck of it..here is a site where lemonade was used as a treatment!..lol
http://www.jurology.com/article/PIIS0022534701656593/abstract
..Then again," Doctor of Medicine" would be more apt to offer you drugs!

..Knowledge is wisdom, and reading is a part of that !

Here is a great start point for any of you..http://www.answers.com/topic/raw-food-diet

............For the benefits of a "Cleanse" see this site
http://www.cleanse.net/mucoid_plaque.HTM
It does not have to be about loosing weight !..thats just a bonus ;)

"Regular posters to this forum know me to be an MD. Rather than expecting people to take my word for it, I provide links to reputable sites and bona fide research articles. People can make decisions, if they wish, on the basis of science and clinical trials, instead of commercial hype and anonymous testimonials."

As far as Scientific proof goes I leave you with this..
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030522083022.htm

...What good that research did !...nuf said !

In conclusion, I think that ACV is not wise to consume as an intended method to loose weight. I would hope that you all would read and research/consult with professionals if you are looking to loose...

heathen, there are many good, caring and responsible MDs - and then there are other MDs who prescribe pharmaceutical drugs as well as herbs and supplements with insufficient regard for their safety, effectiveness, and interactions.
There's a big ad in a nationally distributed newspaper today, featuring an MD who's promoting a "Super Prostate Formula" with all sorts of promises about how great it works (with the usual small print disclaimer that the product "is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease"). There are no references to any studies or proof that it works, just testimonials. This in my view is not the responsible practice of medicine.
In part, it's up to us (members of this forum and all health care consumers, of which I'm one) to be careful about what we put into our bodies and research drugs of all kinds as much as possible (the Internet can be an excellent source of valuable information as well as worthless hype).

"I am surprised a "Doctor" has never heard of the Master Cleanser."

There are a zillion "cleansers" and "detoxifiers" on the market, none of which to my knowledge do much except fatten the wallets of their sellers.

"As far as Scientific proof goes I leave you with this..
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030522083022.htm";

That linked article deals with the Atkins diet, not the "Master Cleanse", so I don't see how it proves your claims.

Oh I know... but I also know that some caring doctor's are still pill pushers... just the generation they came from. Hence the over prescribing of penicillin. You STILL didn't say what kind of MD you are... I mean, can't you be a Psychiatrist and be an MD? :o) or you could be an MD who specializes in Pediatric Medicine.... or geriatric... just wondering.
Sunkist.... I have spent many hours of my life in Healthfood stores and never heard of it. :D Course I could be a bit oblivious.

I'm a pathologist (laboratory-based physician). I write very few prescriptions, which means I miss out on those free coffee mugs and pens (not to mention the now largely defunct all-expenses-paid seminar in Aruba). :)

Of course, the above statement could just be a front for my real persona as a minion of the Medical-Big Pharma Cartel. You never know online - so it's best not to rely on who people say they are, but to evaluate their statements using the most reliable information available.

oh... velly interesting... do you work in the morgue? Or do you feed chemicals to rats? :D
Sorry, not quite sure if you are sarcastic about Big Pharma Cartel... since I believe they are one of the big nasties in the US right now. Sorry if I don't think that doing research on a new Viagra is more important than research on a new antibiotic. And sorry if I think that it's great that we pay 5X more for our meds here in the US than anywhere else. Hey, healthcare isn't a right, it's a privilege for the rich, and if the working poor can't afford healthcare for their families, they should just shut up and be grateful they live in the US.

Nope, virtually all of my patients are alive (and human).

I share some of your views about the health care system and the pharmaceutical industry; in addition, I am concerned about the practices and costs associated with the huge and ever-growing multibillion dollar supplement industry. Since they're the ones that market many unproven, badly standardized and worthless herbal products, they get most of my attention in this forum.

Yes, I figgered it out... yer the one they send this biopsy to to see if it's cancerous or benign kinda thing, then you stick it under the microscope? Yes, I agree... BUT, as in centuries past... snake oil salesmen have always made money off of people's dreams. It has always been so. If gullible wasn't in the dictionary, there wouldn't be a term for Snake Oil Salesmen. But it makes people angry when you take their dreams away... So, in some aspects, having people make money off of other people's hopes.... well, it gives them a hope, so they ARE providing a service. I lived in San Francisco during the early 80's when people were grabbing CRAZILY at straws for SOMETHING to stop their dying of AIDS. Chasing after one herb after another. So, do you think it would have been kind to take that tiny little hope away from them? Even though common SENSE says that they wouldn't work...
I see your point, and it's sort of your job to help people... but sometimes, not always, but sometimes it's not helping.

This applies to me too... see how angry people got when I suggested the best way to lose weight?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathologist

..which means you also miss out in talking with patients/people...too bad!

The reason I posted the "Atkins Diet" info, was to show how the Scientific community can be involved in a "Fad Diet"..unless you are an advocate of the diet !?

Information you posted from a 2003 BBC article, and the one posted in a nationally distibuted newspaper are sensationalism at it's best. I would admonish you that these sources of media are hardly reputable sources for information, as they are often lacking in fact deptartments, and editors with our best interests at heart!

Here is what one of your favorite sites has to say about the Master Cleanser, as you where unable to correctly type it in the search.
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/dictionary/mdl.html

You can find the book at the library, however you will have to fork over your hard earned cash to the grocer for the Organic lemons, Organic Maple syrup, and the cayenne pepper, the water I leave up to you....Ohh those sinister grocers with their fat wallets !..lol

It is doubtful that the funding for research for scientific evidence for this cleanse would be readily available, due in part to it's components. I doubt the Medical-Big Pharma Cartel would get involved! $$ ?

You would think that something that has been around for more than 40 years would have had more information about how bad it was, if that where really the case.

I notice you don't have much to say about the other sites I posted such as this, which does pertain to ACV
which I feel is valid for this forum.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20041101/1731.html

Or this, which I think is also good information
http://www.answers.com/topic/raw-food-diet

And forget about products and do some reading at this site, which has plenty of reference material where you can further research and brush up on your "Knowledge"
http://www.cleanse.net/mucoid_plaque.HTM

Heathen1.. don't give up ! try one of the health food stores that has a book section, and talk to the person who usually staffs that particular area.

...P.S.
I had asked you if you would be so kind as to post us the link to the following
"And to take the liberty of repeating lazygarden's advice in the current thread on cholesterol (since it also applies to weight loss):"

..still waiting!

here is the link to the thread Eric was talking about... http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/herbal/msg0312420919514.html?12

Oh Sunkist... all you eat is lemons and sugar and cayenne? What about all the vitamins and micronutrients that your body needs for building tissue and other needs? Oh.... I wish I hadn't read that... I was HOPING that there was more common sense in there. In daily life, your body breaks down and rebuilds itself and to do that it needs all sorts of vitamins and nutrients and protein. So basically what you are doing is starving it of the building blocks it needs to function. Granted, you feel better when you have less weight on you, but I hope that you don't make yourself sick.
I hope that you are at least taking vitamins. :o( This kind of reminds me of the Grapefruit diet that was the craze in the 70's. Be careful hun, don't wind up in the hospital...
I believe that everything is connected... for example to properly turn protein you eat into tissue, you need vitamin C. To properly use calcium, you need magnesium... and on and on... and women need calcium! Our bodies are a mass of chemical reactions and if we starve them of some needed chemical, it can't make those chemical mixes that keep us alive. You could live on a desert island, eat just coconuts, lose weight alright and starve to death!

..Thanks for posting that link heathen1, saves me a bit of time!

I finished the Cleanse on March 22nd, after 50 days.Lost a total of 43 pounds and feel great. There are many Vitamins, micronutrients etc. in the lemons, and maple syrup which is a balanced sugar filled with many nutrients read more here.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=115
http://whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrientprofile&dbid=44

I have been eating a fantastic diet lately, much of which I can't post in this forum as it does not pertain to topic in discussion, however I will give you a couple of sites here with some very good information in regards to a couple of things I have included in my new dietary intake, I think you might enjoy them. You should be able to find them as well !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinoa

http://www.ana-jana.org/reprints/ACF4D.pdf

Yes, I have heard good things about both... Quinoa's been around for awhile (my mother the hippy was into it many years ago)... NOW, don't tell me that's ALL your eating. :o) And No, there's NOT a lot of vitamins and nutrients in lemons... well, let's say not NEARLY what you need to survive. But that's past.... you are eating better now.. .*Whew* :o) Okay now... I want to see you KEEP this weight off dear. THAT is the goal right? Personally, if you are primarily a vegetarian, who doesn't feel that donuts are a vegetable (:o)) you should have no problem what's so ever to keep the weight off. I mean, if you eat mostly fruits, vegetables and complex carbs with some protein thrown in, you should be thin and healthy as a horse! This is the diet of our ancestors and it kept THEM going.
So is the Wolfberry juice taste good? I have never tried it. Remember though... juice has almost the sugar calories of a soda... with some nutrients thrown in... They just said this on the news... that some people are drinking themselves fat.

..lol..I shall keep posting here, and if you wish, I did post my website that has my personal information on it..I am a real person, and the 165 member film crew that I just finished a feature film with, witnessed my 190lb transformation over the 50 day period. I am in better condition than I have been, of that I can assure you.

I should have posted this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfberry

I choose to eat the whole fruit, as many nutrients and the important fiber are really the benefits!..that goes for any fruit ! I said this before and I will say it again
"P.S. don't drink the juice!...eat the fruit...get it! "...from an earlier post

..I buy the berries in "Chinatown" as they have huge amounts, very inexpensive..try using a small amount with hot water..aka make tea !.
I use them mixed with other dried fruits and nuts.

You did read the nutritional break down here did you not ?
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=115
http://whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrientprofile&dbid=44

..Also do get the Quinoa, it's great that you have heard about, especially learn from your mother.. try it ! I am sure even the good Dr. ERIC would agree !

..They give premature babies watermelon juice sometimes, to help them fatten up !..so remember that..lol

Oh heathen1 here is some information for you that "Big-Pharma" just released
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2006/NEW01344.html

In your spare time here is more information, and the good doctor should do the same, for all the sites I have posted recently!

http://bioagnews.byu.edu/newsrelease.aspx?id=126

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/01n0548/01n-0548-rpt0001-04-intro-vol1.pdf

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/show/NCT00298545?order=21

I will be going to an MD next week, full bloodwork etc., and will post the results if I can.

...Oh and for the MD Eric oh, I recommend that you spend some time reading ALL the information here at this site: ( Some further info on Garlic for you ;) )
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/475S

..and in addition to the wolfberry, I would suggest looking around for "Rosa roxburghii Tratt (cili)" Both of these fruits would be beneficial for you to add to your food intake, as I am sure you would agree.
Do you eat these fruits already ? How about Quinoa ?

I would strongly suggest that adding meat to the diet shows little benefit for health, especially considering this research !

In response to heathen on the subject of snake oil salesmen and trying not to take away hope from people dying of a fatal illness:

I don't think many people (including doctors) would object to the idea of a patient at the end of the line, for whom nothing in mainstream medicine could any longer help, trying an unproven herbal remedy.

But what about a cancer patient whose last family savings are drained away by a Tijuana clinic whose potions and treatments are absolutely worthless?

Then there's a case I saw being discussed on an alt med forum, in which a poster asked for advice involving a woman with metastatic cancer who'd been through conventional treatment and at last had been told there was nothing more that could be provided for her than comfort care. It was suggested that this poor woman start a regimen that included handfulls of pills and supplements, megadose vitamin therapy (which would put her at risk for kidney stones and other problems), and drinking her own urine and (if I remember this right), using an electric "zapper" device to kill the imaginary parasites thought to be causing her cancer. So instead of being permitted to die in relative peace, she'd be subjected to an unpleasant, degrading, expensive and worthless "cure".

And there's the one-time poster on this forum who suggested that in the case of certain unspecified early cancers, that it would be a good idea to try "gentle healing" methods first before consulting an MD for standard treatment. End result - someone with a highly curable early malignancy wastes time with a worthless treatment and winds up with widespread or metastatic disease, and a much worse prognosis.

These are just a few of the situations in which it's necessary to speak out to prevent exploitation or misinformation from harming people.

If there are good and relatively safe methods for dealing with a particular health problem (such as dieting and exercise for weight loss), then it becomes even more important that promoters of alternative methods demonstrate that they are safe and worthwhile (through valid clinical evidence, not testimonials), and justify the expense and/or inconvenience associated with them.

to sunkist: I still don't see anything in any of your many links that shows that it's worthwhile or safe to go on massive fasting or "cleansing" regimens to lose weight. I appreciate your posting the link to the paper in the American Family Physician which had this to say on fad diet promotions:

"Over-the-counter dietary supplements to treat obesity appeal to many patients who desire a "magic bullet" for weight loss. Asking overweight patients about their use of weight-loss supplements and understanding the evidence for the efficacy, safety, and quality of these supplements are critical when counseling patients regarding weight loss...More than 50 individual dietary supplements and more than 125 commercial combination products are available for weight loss....

..Talk about Blah Blah Blah...you do go on and on !

Let me see if I can hold your hand here,

"the relevance of all the links you post (maybe with short excerpts to indicate what point you think they are making)."
How about informative links to sites with valid information/knowledge of
A: Food
B: Studies on food
C: Clinical trials on certain foods

Gee thanks for the helpful hint about putting a short excerpt by the link, I notice you do that often.

...I love how you are unable to answer any questions that are postulated, and how you are unable to detach from the cleanse issue. The information I am trying to make available, to those people who have interest, is that of dietary concerns. This forum was started in regards to the issue of weight loss and ACV, we have seen it branch into much bigger and diversified topics, which is good. We all agree that there is no magic bullet, and I am simply giving people the opportunity to do some research into areas that may be of interest to them.Diet is a very complex topic, deserving much more than this arena to begin debate, however I think you are unable to expand your rhetoric to include any personal experience, or familiarity with any of the foods stated.

"(The only info I can find about apple cider vinegar in that paper notes that there's no evidence it's effective or safe for weight loss)."
....Thank god you figured that out...it's what I stated from the beginning of this forrum! You have been at this forum for how long, without posting something this relative ?

I suggest you do more reading, as it is apparant you spend too much time with invalid media sources as stated earlier.

As the merger of traditional scientific based medicine, and shall we say (Alternative) continues to happen it is important that we realise that both sides are armed with the ability to persuade us with "Scientific Based Clinical Trials"
Companies such as this;http://www.pharmanex.com/corp/index.shtml ..need to be monitored and I agree, thank goodness you are the only one here to save us DR. Eric
Then there are education facilities such as this; http://www.gcnm.com/
..Yikes !

Post some information showing how harmful it is to do a cleanse, clinical trials etc. According to the bible Jesus fasted for 40 days, on just water but hey!...thats just from a book based on some testimony...lol

In any field of science, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. People making such claims are generally expected to provide supporting evidence and not expect others to do the work for them.

People looking for help losing weight want something tried and tested, and which doesn't expect them to go on an extreme diet in order to drop weight, only to gain it all back (or more), which is what fasts, purges and "cleanses" generally accomplish, if people can tolerate going through with them at all. If these methods really worked long-term, what would be the need to keep repeating them at intervals?

If there's anything else you'd like to discuss on this subject, please do so without further insults and sniping - if you want a response.

"In any field of science, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. People making such claims are generally expected to provide supporting evidence and not expect others to do the work for them."

..Wrong ! Others do indeed do the work for them, test subjects, scientists, doctors, lab technicians etc.

Please see the definitions/ sites posted, regarding science/ scientific method.

Dear forum readers, any of you whom have read this far deserve a pat on the back ! As you can see from certain posters, it is often easier to avoid answering questions in an open forum, for many reasons, as stated earlier.

I leave you with the following advice/recommendation, if you get a chance try to find a book by "Christopher Wanjek" called "Bad Medicine" Misconceptions and Miuses Revealed, from Distance Healing to Vitamin O
ISBN: 04714399X

..There are many questions left unanswered by the self proclaimed MD, this should tell you something !

I read all the postings. Sorry you lost me on those last couple of technical messages. I read in one of the magazines yesterday while I was at the grocery check out that 2 Tablespoons of vinegar at each meal would help me lose weight. They quoted some research, but I was skeptical. 2 Tablespoons of straight vinegar would turn my stomach and cause weight loss without a problem.

Right now I'm on 1500 calories a day. I'm trying to drop 20 lbs and it will take about 4 months. Last year my husband was diagnosed with diabetes and finally gave in to a calorie reduced diet (2000). He dropped 70 lbs without exercise and with days off for holidays, vacations, family get togethers, etc.

We had to shop around for a doctor who was not a pill pusher. John refused to take cholesterol medication because of the potential liver damage and he doesn't want to take diabetes pills (he takes them anyway). My dad is really into herbs and such so he recommended (brand omitted) fish oil pills. A year later John's cholesterol was well within the healthy range (dropped about 100 points, triglicerides dropped about 300 points). His sugar levels are also well within the healthy range (dropped about 200 points) and the doctor is going to cut back on the dosage of medication this next time around.

Bottom line, I'm not asking for a miracle cure, but it sure would be nice to speed up the process of weight loss. My sister is also a diabetic and dropped weight with a combination of diet and ACV pills. I'd prefer to do the pills, but I'm going to take your advice and go get the health food store variety of ACV, take a calorie hit for the honey, and try drinking it as a hot beverage with each meal. I used to do a drink like this with lemon instead of vinegar and it was pretty good.

I'll check back in three weeks and let you know what happened.

jndcarl's experiment may involve inert pills.

According to a recent study (which included evaluation of esophageal damage due to ACV pills), such products may not contain any of the claimed ingredient at all:

"Apple cider vinegar products are advertised in the popular press and over the Internet for treatment of a variety of conditions. After an adverse event was reported to the authors, eight apple cider vinegar tablet products were tested for pH, component acid content, and microbial growth. Considerable variability was found between the brands in tablet size, pH, component acid content, and label claims. Doubt remains as to whether apple cider vinegar was in fact an ingredient in the evaluated products. The inconsistency and inaccuracy in labeling, recommended dosages, and unsubstantiated health claims make it easy to question the quality of the products."

My sister became interested in vinegar for weight loss in October 2005. I do not know what kind, how much or any of the particulars. She's lost 50 pounds. Is it the vinegar? Or is the coffee she stopped drinking when she started the vinegar consumption? Each cup of coffee equals 3 tablespoons of sugar plus creamer. She brewed 2 pots of coffee everyday. What she did not drink hot, she chilled in the refrigerator. I think it's the coffee. She has visited the doctor several times during the past 2 months with bladder symptons and stinging and burning during urination. Her urine sample looked like tea or coffee. I think it's the vinegar! Just look at all of the built up dirt and grime that vinegar can cut through.

Sounds like the woman is not drinking enough water... vinegar may not cut it. That bad of urine.... introduce her to sugar free cranberry juice. UTI's are painful and if they are recurring, either she's got something extra going on or she's not getting enough fluid... she shouldn't keep getting it back.

heathen might well be right - dramatically cutting back fluid intake can predispose to or worsen bladder infection symptoms (coffee itself is regarded as a potential bladder irritant and excess intake as a risk factor for cystitis).
Depending on how much sugar and cream was added, the coffee could have contributed a significant calorie load, so it makes sense that cutting it out contributed to the weight loss.

I question whether vinegar intake could have much impact on the bladder, whether through effect on pH (minimal to zero) or as an irritant.

I appreciate any feedback! I am very concerned about my sister's general health. She is 63 and as we get older things effect our bodies a little more dramatically. I was hoping for a solution to the recent on going problem. She drinks cranberry juice and water. She buys cases of water. Whatever is going on it's getting worse. Her doctor has changed the antibiotic several times. Leviquin, Avelox, Sulfa, Ketok. She has an appointment with a urologist the end of May.

Oh good... hope it gets better, I know from experience that that is very painful.

I drank cider vinegar with the mother, 2 Tablespoons at each meal for 2 1/2 weeks. I also did not exceed 1500 calories a day and I did not exercise other than the normal housework and running up and down stairs. I lost 2 lbs. but I also experienced excessive urination and if I did not dilute the vinegar enough with soup or vegetable cocktail, it burned all the way down and burned until I drank or ate something.

Then I had to go out of town for a week. I did not drink vinegar and I consumed all the calories I wanted. I gained the 2 lbs. back.

For the past week I've kept the calories below 1500 but didn't drink any vinegar or increase my exercise. I lost 1 3/4 lbs. Normally on a diet I'll lose about a pound a week until I plateau, then I just stop for a couple months being careful not to over indulge so I don't gain it back. Once my body accepts the new weight as normal, I'll start again.

Conclusion: Cider Vinegar made no noticeable difference in my weight loss.

I recently started to take ACV after researching its properties on the internet. I use it as a hair rinse, but never thought of drinking it! Recently I have had a bout of nausea which seemed to last for weeks, after a day of drinking it, the nausea disappeared and I had bags of energy. Another side effect is hair growth, but I have not been taking it long enough to report any changes. Any changes will be noticeable after about 8wks. I think this is a wonder food, that can cure many ills.

My stomach feels great and the dodgy wind I was experiencing is no more! If I can lose weight and improve my health just by drinking ACV then I'm very happy. Will keep you posted of any developments.

You can add televangelist Pat Robertson to the list of people supplying testimonials for cider vinegar. It seems that the stuff is one of the ingredients in his "age-defying protein shakes" (not to be confused with his "age-defying protein pancakes" and "age-defying anti-oxidants"). Pat is quoted as saying that his secretary told him that cider vinegar helps you lose weight, and that's good enough for him.

More here. The article also discusses Pat's claim that at age 73 he leg-pressed 2000 pounds, which is about 500 pounds more than the official record (set by a decathlon athlete one-third his age). So in addition to everything else, cider vinegar may help make you into Superman as well!

There's no limit to this wonderfood. :)

149 posts...I think 150 is limit and wanted the honor!

I don't know if ACV is good as a weight loss tool or not, i do know it is good on food and as a condiment. It must be safer to drink ACV mixed with honey in water, than those dark colored softdrinks full of phosphoric acid lol.

Just a bit of food for thought, the drug companies that are trying to get a "new" drug approved by the FDA are the same drug companies that are PAYING for that testing process. Quite frankly, I don't trust any of them.

Plants were created for a purpose, many of them do have healing properties that those drug companies some people put so much stock in would go to any lengths to keep people from learning about or believing in. Tell me, what would happen if the world was to find out that ACV could help with Acid Reflux and/or chronic indigestion? *Grins* Exactly. They'd stop buying "the purple pill" and start buying ACV.

Personally, I trust the products that God made before I'd trust those which are man made. ACV is made from apples. The "mother" mentioned in this thread are simply vital nutrients and minerals our bodies benefit from which are lost in the pasteurization process of the "grocery store" brands.

ACV is acidic by nature, but when your body burns it, the ash created by the process of converting it to calories is "Base" in nature, which balances out the body's Ph. There ARE health benefits of ACV, many. But you'll never see a "clinical trial" of ACV. Why? Well think about it. Who pays the bills in a clinical trial? What drug company would want it proven clinically that ACV does the same thing as their "wonder pill?" Not to mention many prescription drugs are based after that which occurs naturally in nature.

Personally, I have taken ACV for over 3 years now. I have gone from a jean size 24 to a jean size 8. But you must remember that no "weight loss" product, no exercise, nothing works overnight. It is a gradual process. My advice? If you're going to try ACV, then make a commitment to stay on it for at least 3 months. That's how long it took before I began to see results.

The first thing I noticed was that my craving for junk food began to wane. I began to crave healthy food. I began to drink more water, I began to get full faster. I had more energy, I felt better. But I've also not been sick in 3 years. I've had kids with bad colds standing over me while I'm kneeling down at work and coughing right in my face, and not gotten sick. No stuffy noses, no sore throats, no flu.

The only time I had a problem was when I stopped taking it for a few months. I didn't realize how much ACV doing for me until then. I was miserable, I just felt like crap. And within that 2 month time frame, I gradually began to go back to eating junk. Within a few weeks of going back on ACV, I felt much, much better. Most of the weight loss I experienced occurred during the first 6 months, mainly during a 2-3 month time frame. Within a few months, I'd noticed that my clothes were a bit big. 6 months after beginning, I went up and tried on clothes to find that I was a size 10.

Concerned that there might be another reason for my weight loss I went to the doctor, and was told that I was in perfect...

Hello All.

Very interesting discussion. Just want to add to the original thread. Back in the 70's my dad was told by someone at work that 1 tablespoon of vinegar in a glass of water before bed would help him lose weight. (He had quite a big gut). We were all horrified at the notion of drinking vinegar. Anyway, he dropped a lot of weight in a very short time. We were all amazed. My sister tried it and stopped after a few weeks because she developed some sort of skin irritation on her neck and cheek. She wasn't sure if it was the vinegar so she stopped taking it. But she too had a very noticeable drop in weight. I would think pH would be a problem but a few of the posts above say that's not an issue. I have heard that a teaspoon of baking soda in a glass of water is good for getting your body back to pH balance. The same baking soda remedy a couple times a day is supposed to cure gout as well. I've never had it so don't know.

I also would like to add my 2 cents about pharmaceutical companies. I don't like them nor do I trust them. I have heard recently that medications do not break down in your body and when you urinate, it goes into fish, etc. Is this true?

Good luck everybody.

I'll say first ...I have enjoyed reading all the post on here, some made good sense,however, the part on herbs not being studied is not true,Herbs is in all Medicine.Every Herb that is known to man has been studied by Scientist,They don't give the effectiveness of them for the mere fact that medicine's are made up of them.The vinegar conversations are somewhat fact and fictional, it will help with weight loss if used with exercise and the right food,it will dissolve Kidney stones over a period of time,the same as lemon juice will.It is good for the digestive tract and for food poision, its not a cure-all.Its good for yeast infections, sunburns,insect bites,and hair,amoung other things, the list goes on.For anyone to know the true effectiveness of ACV they should try it themselves, that way they wont need answers from other people.It's harmless when taken right and many of us get a dose of it daily in salad dressing, mayo,Oh and ladies by the way ....Mayo makes a good night cream. and ACV makes a good rinse for pets to repel fleas and tic's.They might smell like a pickle but they love it.