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Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Posted by eric_oh 6a (My Page) on
Mon, Oct 27, 08 at 19:18

The number of phony cancer cures targeted by a task force working in three countries to crack down on Internet fakery and worthless products has reached 187.

"The products contain ingredients such as bloodroot, shark cartilage, coral calcium, cesium, ellagic acid, Cat's Claw, an herbal tea called Essiac, and mushroom varieties such as Agaricus Blazeii, Shitake, Maitake, and Reishi...

Examples of fraudulent claims for these products include:

"Treats all forms of cancer"
"Causes cancer cells to commit suicide!"
"80% more effective than the world's number one cancer drug"
"Skin cancers disappear"
"Target cancer cells while leaving healthy cells alone"
"Shrinks malignant tumors"
"Avoid painful surgery, radiotherapy, chemotherapy, or other conventional treatments"

The Warning Letters (sent to the offending marketers) are part of the FDA's ongoing efforts, in collaboration with the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Canadian government agencies, to prevent deceptive products from reaching consumers. The initiative originated from consumer complaints and a web search for fraudulent cancer products conducted by the FDA, FTC and members of the MexicoUnited StatesCanada Health Fraud Working Group. Earlier this year, FTC sent Warning Letters to 112 Web sites falsely promoting cancer "treatments" and referred several others to foreign authorities."

Here's a list of the 187 products involved in the crackdown.

More here on the FTC's Operation False Hope, including resources for consumers and tips on ways to spot health fraud.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Anyone notice most of these so called cures are made by and promoted by rogue doctors and medical people. Maybe they should clean up their own act and stay away from herbs.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

"Rogue doctors and medical people" are responsible for promoting for promoting and selling essiac tea and these other phony cancer cures? Really? Have you any evidence that this is the case?

In any case I'm glad to see you agree that these are useless remedies that should be avoided.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

The medical industry tries to clean up its act, but every time it works to stamp out dangerous false cures (that prevent people from getting real treatment) the CAM industry gets up in arms and stops them. Even doctors and medical people can be swayed, thats why the scientific publication process is so very brutal, to tear bad ideas to shreds. Typically the first thing that the rouges will do is stop participating in the traditional medical process.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Keep in mind these FDA letters are issued often because the claims cannot be substantiated, not because the underlying products are worthless. In other words, they may be touted like snake oil but they may actually work.

My favorite is astaxanthin. It has been a godsend for me, but some touts have sullied its name with their hype. Please don't ignore all these substances just because of the quick buck artists.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

It's been three years since I posted about these phony cancer cures, and I haven't heard of any being validated as worthwhile treatments since then. The best known (including essiac, shark cartilage and coral calcium) have long been known to be worthless and offering false hope to people who turn to them instead of potentially life-saving therapy. Some are dangerous to use (like bloodroot salve, which can be disfiguring while failing to eradicate the skin cancers for which it's promoted).

I'm not sure why the last poster brought up astaxanthin, a compound whose FDA-approved use is as a food coloring/additive in animal and fish feed. It's being studied for its antioxidant ability, but the work is still very preliminary, and I've heard nothing to show that people should take it to cure or prevent cancer. If thaugen has some evidence to the contrary (aside from personal testimonials) it'd be interesting to hear it.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Eric - Astaxanthin can extend your life if you are a mutant nematode :) But only if your parents consumed it before you were conceived :(

It's not significantly better than other (cheaper) carotinoids in other things, such as slowing eye degeneration.

And it reduces the ability of your lymphocytes to multiply (which may be a bad thing).


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Wow, I've been called names here before, but never "a mutant nematode". :)

lazygarden's comment about astaxanthin having a negative effect on lymphocytes highlights a recent trend in research illustrating that antioxidants can harm as well as help the body. For instance, it's been found that taking antioxidant supplements may not be good for the heart.

Astaxanthin is being studied for possible use to prevent or treat cardiac problems, but experience with other antioxidants suggests we should be careful before jumping on the bandwagon. And as mentioned before, there doesn't seem to be any good evidence for its use to prevent or treat cancer.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

I posted about Astaxanthin because I'm a 22 year cancer survivor and it has helped immensely with some recent skin cancers. I have no connection with any scheme.

This stuff has a lot of researchers studying it for a number of health-enhancing effects it appears to produce. To me, the more studies being done over a long period of time lend credence that there's something there.

Astaxanthin research for the technically minded: The Medical Research of Astaxanthin 273 pages
http://www.cyanotech.com/pdfs/Astaxanthin_Abstract_Book.pdf

For the rest of us: ASTAXANTHIN AND CANCER
http://www.livestrong.com/article/465213-astaxanthin-and-cancer/

Here are just a few cancer studies:

Life Sci. 2002 Apr 21;70(21):2509-20.
Contribution of the antioxidative property of astaxanthin to its protective effect on the promotion of cancer metastasis in mice treated with restraint stress.
Kurihara H, Koda H, Asami S, Kiso Y, Tanaka T.
Institute for Health Care Science, Suntory Ltd., 1-1-1 Wakayamadai, Shimamoto-cho, Mishima-gun, Osaka 618-8503, Japan. Hiroshi_Kurihara@suntory.co.jp
We investigated the effects of astaxanthin on the antitumor effector activity of natural killer (NK) cells suppressed by stress in mice in order to define the immunological significance of astaxanthin (ASX) when combined with restraint stress treatment. When the mice were treated with restraint stress alone, the total number of spleen cells, and the level NK cell activity per spleen were reduced to a nadir on day 3. The stress also caused a significant increase in the lipid peroxidation of liver tissue. ASX (100 mg/kg/day, p.o., 4 days) improved the immunological dysfunction induced by restraint stress. On the other hand, metastatic nodules were observed in the livers of syngenic DBA/2 mice on day 12 after inoculation of P815 mastocytoma cells. Hepatic metastasis was promoted further by restraint stress when applied on day 3 before the inoculation of P815. Daily oral administration of ASX (1 mg/kg/day, p.o., 14 days) markedly attenuated the promotion of hepatic metastasis induced by restraint stress. These results suggested that astaxanthin improves antitumor immune responses by inhibiting of lipid peroxidation induced by stress.

Nutr Cancer. 2000;36(1):59-65.
Antitumor activity of astaxanthin and its mode of action.
Jyonouchi H, Sun S, Iijima K, Gross MD.
Department of Pediatrics, School of Medicine, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis 55455, USA. jyono001@jyono001.email.umn.edu
Astaxanthin, a carotenoid without vitamin A activity, may exert antitumor activity through the enhancement of immune responses. Here, we determined the effects of dietary astaxanthin on tumor growth and tumor immunity against transplantable methylcholanthrene-induced fibrosarcoma (Meth-A tumor) cells. These tumor cells express a tumor antigen that induces T cell-mediated immune responses in syngenic mice. BALB/c mice were fed astaxanthin (0.02%, 40 micrograms/kg body wt/day in a beadlet form) mixed in a chemically defined diet starting zero, one, and three weeks before subcutaneous inoculation with tumor cells (3 x 10(5) cells, 2 times the minimal tumorigenic dose). Three weeks after inoculation, tumor size and weight were determined. We also determined cytotoxic T lymphocyte (CTL) activity and interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) production by tumor-draining lymph node (TDLN) and spleen cells by restimulating cells with Meth-A tumor cells in culture. The astaxanthin-fed mice had significantly lower tumor size and weight than controls when supplementation was started one and three weeks before tumor inoculation. This antitumor activity was paralleled with higher CTL activity and IFN-gamma production by TDLN and spleen cells in the astaxanthin-fed mice. CTL activity by TDLN cells was highest in mice fed astaxanthin for three weeks before inoculation. When the astaxanthin-supplemented diet was started at the same time as tumor inoculation, none of these parameters were altered by dietary astaxanthin, except IFN-gamma production by spleen cells. Total serum astaxanthin concentrations were approximately 1.2 mumol/l when mice were fed astaxanthin (0.02%) for four weeks and appeared to increase in correlation with the length of astaxanthin supplementation. Our results indicate that dietary astaxanthin suppressed Meth-A tumor cell growth and stimulated immunity against Meth-A tumor antigen.

Anticancer Res. 1999 Nov-Dec;19(6B):5223-7.
Dietary beta-carotene and astaxanthin but not canthaxanthin stimulate splenocyte function in mice.
Chew BP, Wong MW, Park JS, Wong TS.
Department of Animal Sciences, Washington State University, Pullman 99164, USA.
The in vivo modulatory effect of beta-carotene, astaxanthin and canthaxanthin on lymphocyte function was investigated. Female BALB/c mice (8 wk old) were fed a basal diet containing 0, 0.1% or 0.4% beta-carotene, astaxanthin or canthaxanthin for 0, 2 or 4 wk (n = 8/diet/period). Splenic lymphocytes were isolated and mitogen-stimulated proliferation, IL-2 production and lymphocyte cytotoxicity were assessed. Body weight and feed intake were not different among dietary treatments. Plasma carotenoids were undetectable in unsupplemented mice but concentrations of the respective carotenoids were elevated in mice fed 0.1 or 0.4% beta-carotene (0.22 and 0.39 mumol/L), astaxanthin (16.4 and 50.2 mumol/L) and canthaxanthin (5.00 and 7.02 mumol/L) respectively. Mice fed both dietary levels of beta-carotene and astaxanthin had enhanced phytohemagglutinin-induced lymphoblastogenesis compared to unsupplemented mice (P < 0.03). No treatment difference was detected with concanavalin A- or lipopolysaccharide-induced lympho-proliferation nor with IL-2 production (P < 0.05). Astaxanthin (0.1%) also enhanced lymphocyte cytotoxic activity (P < 0.08). In contrast, canthaxanthin did not significantly influence any of the lymphocyte functions measured. Results indicate that beta-carotene and astaxanthin but not canthaxanthin exert enhanced splenic lymphocyte function in mice.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Well, that's a lot to digest.

What it boils down to is two articles on experiments in mice, one involving a rare tumor found mostly in veterinary practice, the other an even rarer tumor created in the lab and again studied in mice. The last experiment doesn't even involve a tumor. None of this gives us any confidence that astaxanthin is a safe and effective agent for protecting against or treating cancer in humans. The quoted studies certainly don't suggest that self-treating one's own skin cancers is a good idea.

It's good to hear that thaugen is a 22-year cancer survivor. Are you crediting astaxanthin for this result, or was some other kind of treatment done?


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

"Are you crediting astaxanthin for this result, or was some other kind of treatment done?"

I fully credit conventional medicine (surgery) and I say this to demonstrate that I try to take an even-handed approach to treatments. I agree with the maxim, if it works for you, go with it.

Regarding the skin cancers I have now, conventional treatments such as surgery, cryosurgery and photodynamic therapy have failed to eradicate the worst two cancers. Proves I have nothing against conventional medicine, but when their next step is to cut off most of my nose, I'm going with alternative treatments and they're working. The astaxanthin killed 8 of 12 newer sores, and yes, I stopped taking it a couple times and the sores started growing back each time, so astaxanthin was the effective agent. Now combined with a topical herbal protocol, these two oldest cancers have started shrinking.

Although some of the eight had not been diagnosed, they all responded in the classic cancer necrosis pattern: transient inflammation, flaking/scaling, and crusting.

eric_oh, I just tossed in those three studies because they were easiest to find. You dismissed them all and said the last one doesn't even involve a tumor, but I thought we are talking cancer here. My scant knowledge of lymphocites is that they are involved with cancer several ways:

T lymphocyte: A type of immune cell that can attack foreign cells, cancer cells, and cells infected with a virus. T lymphocytes can also help control immune responses. ...
Chronic lymphocytic leukemia is a type of cancer in which the bone marrow makes too many lymphocytes ...

BTW, I didn't search all through the 273 page summary of astaxanthin research looking for cancer studies, did you? My goal here is certainly not to advocate self-treating for cancer EXCEPT if conventional medicine is failing you, or if the side effects of conventional treatments are too dire to endure. You can repeat that it's unproven, but I couldn't wait five years for the studies to pan out.

As far as being safe, astaxanthin has few or no side effects, and dosages up to 100mg. have been tried. The most common dosage is 4mg. and that costs about 15 cents a day. It's a natural product of algae that gives salmon and flamingos their orange/red colors. I tossed it out in this thread because there are snake oil touts and TV doctors slavering all over making it seem like a fake cure.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Lymphocytes are key players in our immune response to various antigens, but possible interactions with tumor cells are only a small part of what they do. Nonspecifically jacking up lymphocyte activity could be beneficial or could lead to serious medical problems including autoimmune disease. There's a great deal of complexity involved.

If treating skin cancer was a simple as taking a dose of a common antioxidant like astaxanthin, researchers and clinicians would be enthusiastically promoting it. But there's no reason to think it's an anticancer magic bullet any more than a variety of other antioxidants or herbal derivatives that have scattered testimonials but no hard evidence supporting their use.
Skin "sores" such as you mention could be due to a variety of things (infection, allergy and malignancy to name a few) and there's no way for readers of this forum to tell what you are self-treating.

We've had people posting here to promote a "herbal" skin cancer treatment - bloodroot salve, which burns away healthy and malignant tissue alike, and can cause severe damage without eradicating deep-seated invasive tumors. I hope for your sake that's not the "topical herbal protocol" to which you referred in your last post.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

"If treating skin cancer was a simple as taking a dose of a common antioxidant like astaxanthin, researchers and clinicians would be enthusiastically promoting it."

Perhaps they will as more phase III clinical trials are undertaken, such as the 2010 Washington State University study, among the first on humans. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2845588/
I believe Astaxanthin will catch on as an adjunctive support in cancer treatment, not as the main treatment, in much the same way as several other herbals have already been used.

"Skin 'sores' such as you mention could be due to a variety of things ... "

I've endured tested/diagnosed basal cell carcinomas, squamous cell carcinomas, and actinic keratoses, along with miscellaneous other items my dermatologist labelled with the technical term 'barnacles'. So when I say "sores" I have a pretty good idea which are cancerous (or pre-cancerous) and which are just boo-boos. Those C ones responded to the astaxanthin with typical cancer necrosis symptoms: erythema, flaking/scaling, and crusting.

Over the past two decades I've done a fair amount of research into conventional and alternative (including herbal) treatments for cancer, with a skeptical scientist's eye towards all the protocols. Along with Astaxanthin, a natural product made by algae and found abundantly in nature, I also investigated the two most widely prescribed chemical creams for skin cancers, Aldara (imiquimod) and Efudex.

Both of those prescription chemicals have allegedly seriously injured people, especially Efudex, which is also used as a chemotherapy agent. In order for Efudex to be effective, it must kill off cancerous cells in a localized area. However, Efudex destroys cells indiscriminately and cannot tell cancerous cells from healthy cells in the localized area. This could lead to cells mutating and the rise of another form of cancer.

Imiquimod has a different mechanism of action, namely it revs up the body's own immune system to identify and attack abnormal cells. Astaxanthin has also been clinically proven to enhance immune response in humans, so it may possibly work in similar fashion. For those wanting a technical explanation here is an edited version:

Imiquimod is an immune response modifier, based on the augmentation of cellular immune responses and recruitment of cytokines and natural killer cell activity. Imiquimod does not create a new immune process; rather it augments a response that is already active to make it more effective. Imiquimod is useful in disease states requiring cellular immunity such as tumors and viral infections. Imiquimod is not creating a new immune response against a target antigen; rather it is taking the process that is already in motion and making it work harder. For example, when we see a biopsy specimen of a basal cell carcinoma (BCC), more often than not there is an infiltrate surrounding the tumor. The BCC has developed ways to render that infiltrate useless as well as fight off the mechanisms of apoptosis by the host. However, when imiquimod is introduced, the host immune machinery is restored. The concept of augmenting an immune response and promoting cellular immunity is the basis for modifying the process of the disease, not just alleviating symptoms. For example, this is important for preventing long-term outcomes such as invasive squamous cell carcinoma occurring in skin that has heavy photodamage or multiple actinic keratoses. This is based on the idea that antigen processing leads to inflammation that is focused against that target, whether it is inflammatory, infectious, or neoplastic. When inflammation is created with a purpose in this fashion, it can be considered to be a primary component of the process to modify the disease.

This is the herbalism forum so others far more experienced than myself might read this and say that it sounds like the mechanism of action of many herbs that rev up the immune system. Astaxanthin being a natural plant substance that also has been clinically proven to decrease free radical-induced cellular damage, should be considered as an herbal treatment that MAY help treat cancer.

My experience with topical treatments:
I tried using a raspberry-derived ellagic acid antioxidant cream but wasn't seeing fabulous results, perhaps masked by the gradual improvements coming from the astaxanthin.

Currently I'm using agrimony in a homemade topical, with some success in shrinking the oldest, toughest basal cell carcinomas. The jury is still out on that one.

In Australia where skin cancer is rampant they are having good success with petty spurge. The sap from the stem is applied directly to the sores. This is a weed found throughout the world, except at 5000 feet elevation where I live. I made a request in the Weeds forum attempting to locate some seeds but with no luck. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12275507


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

There is no form of skin cancer or other skin condition that is technically known as "barnacles" (I have never heard of this, and a search of the PubMed scientific literature database turns up zero about "skin barnacles".

thaugen describes "erythema, flaking/scaling, and crusting" as "typical cancer necrosis symptoms". Actually, those signs are very common nonspecific findings in a host of skin disorders, most typically inflammatory and infectious ones, and are not characteristic of tumors. This leads one to wonder if the "cancers" thaugen thinks are being successfully treated by astaxanthin are cancers at all, instead of inflammatory conditions that might well improve on their own.

There are topical agents and other therapies with a proven track record in treating skin cancer. Unfortunately, astaxanthin is not one of them. Herbs cannot be relied upon for this purpose either.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

"There is no form of skin cancer or other skin condition that is technically known as 'barnacles' (I have never heard of this, and a search of the PubMed scientific literature database turns up zero about 'skin barnacles'."

That's a dermatologist JOKE. I like doctors with a sense of humor.

Hey Eric, please re-read what I wrote: tested and diagnosed. I accept the medical lab's results that they were/are cancers.

"Herbs cannot be relied upon for this purpose either." Eric, you're in the herbalism forum. Please respect the knowledge of folks here (not myself) who have clinical experience treating skin cancers with herbs. And your statement is patently false, as demonstrated by the results of the clinical study I cited: . http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12275507


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

"Eric, you're in the herbalism forum. Please respect the knowledge of folks here (not myself) who have clinical experience treating skin cancers with herbs."

Thanks for the lecture, but here's the stated purpose of the forum (it appears at the top of the main Herbalism Forum page:

"This forum is for the discussion of herbalism, the use of herbs for medicinal purposes."

Note that it does not say: "You must agree with any poster that herbs are useful for a given condition."

"Hey Eric, please re-read what I wrote: tested and diagnosed. I accept the medical lab's results that they were/are cancers."

That's a bit different from what you said before: "Although some of the eight (sores) had not been diagnosed...So when I say "sores" I have a pretty good idea which are cancerous (or pre-cancerous) and which are just boo-boos."

It sounds like you're treating undefined skin lesions with a supplement that can only loosely be defined as "herbal", and which has no proven track record in treating skin cancer (or any other cancer).
As for the story you linked to, it's interesting but does not represent a proven herbal remedy for skin cancer either (there have been no full-scale clinical trials, the therapy failed to eradicate the skin cancer in about half the cases on extended followup, and the study authors themselves recommended against people going out and harvesting the herb for use in home treatment.

As to whatever skin condition you're self-treating that seems to be responding*, I hope there's physician supervision to assure that a worse problem doesn't develop.

*this is not "clinical experience" - it's a testimonial.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

OK Eric, several biopsied, several not. I have no further interest in discussing my particular cancers with you. Some were biopsied as BCCs. Some AKs (which I've also had and were biopsied as such) mutate into SCCs (I've had one biopsied). Getting rid of all three types is a good thing and I'm well along in doing so.

As for the stated purpose of this forum, why did YOU start this thread by including non-herbal items such as coral calcium, and cesium which cannot be even loosely defined as "herbal"? Now you want to chastise me for advocating a naturally obtained product of plants?

Why did YOU name this thread Fake Cancer Cures when in fact you have no conclusive scientific proof that these protocols are FAKE? The FDA orders only refer to unproven claims, not that the claims are fake. You have violated your own rules that all claims must be scientifically proven.

Lastly, I haven't looked at all the posts you made and that were made about you but let me leave you with this. A good scientist has a healthy skepticism because many items are proven false within a few years after they are accepted in the scientific community. So you should also have skepticism about scientific approaches to medicine. I suggest you are infected with Scientism:

Scientism: the dogmatic endorsement of scientific methodology and the reduction of all knowledge to only that which is measurable. It includes an excessive deference to claims made by scientists or an uncritical eagerness to accept any result described as scientific.
The term is also used to highlight the possible dangers of lapses towards excessive reductionism in all fields of human knowledge.
Scientism, in the strong sense, is the self-annihilating view that only scientific claims are meaningful, which is not a scientific claim and hence, if true, not meaningful. Thus, scientism is either false or meaningless.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

I did not invent the characterization of these "cancer cures" as fake (that was the task force's term), but it's been known for many years that herbal remedies like essiac tea and bloodroot promoted as anticancer agents are ineffective and/or dangerous. At what point do promoters of these products stop pretending that one day they will be vindicated? "Fake" and "fraud" are apt terms to use here. Some of the other products mentioned in the article on the task force crackdown have shorter histories of deceptive marketing to the public, but the effect is the same - promises are being made that the sellers cannot deliver on, and not only are people paying for worthless stuff, but proven effective treatments are delayed or missed altogether.

"...you have no conclusive scientific proof that these protocols are FAKE? The FDA orders only refer to unproven claims, not that the claims are fake. You have violated your own rules that all claims must be scientifically proven."

No, that's not how it works. In medicine (as in other realms of science), it's those who make claims that are obliged to prove them, using accepted methods subject to peer review. "Prove me wrong!" is not an acceptable position.

I'm not sure where you got your definition of "scientism", but it reflects a profound misunderstanding of science. There are continually challenges within the scientific community to "dogma" and new theories are accepted when satisfactorily proven. It is commonplace for alt med advocates to point to this free flow of ideas as a supposed weakness and their own hidebound beliefs as a virtue ("They've changed their standard of care again, but in homeopathy we've done the same thing for 150 years!" :)

Since the article linked to the opening post is apparently no longer available from the FDA, here's a summary from another site. I also found the following good advice:

Safety Tips:
* Be wary of unverified testimonials and purported research results. To be sure, always consult your physician about new treatments or therapies.
* Consumers should take the phrases below as warning signs of exaggerated claims:
* "Treats all forms of cancer"
* "Makes skin cancers disappear"
* "Shrinks malignant tumors"
* "Avoid painful surgery, radiotherapy, chemotherapy, or other conventional treatments"


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

"No, that's not how it works. In medicine (as in other realms of science), it's those who make claims that are obliged to prove them, using accepted methods subject to peer review. 'Prove me wrong!' is not an acceptable position."

You are wrong. In the court case NATIONAL COUNCIL AGAINST HEALTH FRAUD, INC., (NCAHF) Plaintiff and Appellant, v. KING BIO PHARMACEUTICALS, INC. et al., Defendants the appeals court found:

On appeal, NCAHF acknowledges that, under current California law, a false advertising plaintiff bears the burden of proving the defendant�s advertising claim is false or misleading. NCAHF contends, however, that we should shift the burden of proof to the defendant to facilitate the campaign against health fraud. NCAHF argues that federal law shifts the burden to the defendant in false advertising actions.
We conclude there is no basis in California law to shift the burden of proof to a defendant in a representative false advertising and unlawful competition action. We conclude further that the Legislature has indicated an intent to place the burden of proof on the plaintiff in such cases. Finally, we conclude federal authority is not apposite.

Summary: In sum, both private persons and prosecuting authorities may sue to enjoin false advertising and obtain restitution. When they bring such actions, both private persons and prosecuting authorities bear the burden of proving the advertising claims to be false or misleading.

So, Eric, you might want all medicine to to be a science, but that just ain't so. Some have even argued that "medical Science" is an oxymoron. Medicine is till very much an art, occasionally tempered by science. And this Hebralism Forum is about the ART of Herbalism, although you've soiled it with your continual demands that it conform to the rules of science.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

You are citing an unspecified opinion about California law relating to advertising. That is not relevant to what I said about science. Scientists are expected (by their peers) to prove claims. Those claims are not regarded as valid merely because they have not yet been refuted.

Time and money are limited commodities. If Dr. X says he has invented a cure for cancer it is Dr. X who is obliged to publish valid research studies establishing the truth of his claims. No one else is obliged to do his work for him.

Your view of medicine (art "occasionally" tempered by science) is stuck in the 19th century. As for "soiling" discussions of herbalism, I suggest again that you check out the forum description at the top of the forum main page. The forum is not intended solely for people who think as you do.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Since when are herbalists required to be scientists? Only in your little personal world. Since they don't claim to be scientists, herbalists can use the long history of health cases as good reason to treat a particular condition with certain herbs. I cited that landmark case because it's only when herbalists run afoul of the law that they are required to prove something.

If medicine has advanced so far, why is it still called "the practice of medicine"? And not the Science of Medicine?

And don't make out that physicians are any different. The quackpot Stephen Barrett stated, "[so-and-so is not qualified] to give competent health advice to clients because that requires years of clinical experience under expert supervision."

Why do you keep suggesting that I check out the forum description? You seem to be inferring something there that does not exist. The government accepts that herbs are used for medicinal purposes and yet do not have to meet the FDA requirements for medicines. http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/files/HerbalFacts06.pdf
I have never expected you to think as I do. Conversely, unless you can somehow explain yourself better, you should never expect me to think as you do.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

From the forum main page:

"This forum is for the discussion of herbalism, the use of herbs for medicinal purposes."

There's plenty of room there for different viewpoints. Participants are free to believe that science is an enemy of herbalism (unless a particular study seems to support their views), or they may view science-based herbalism as a great improvement on testimonials and quackery.

I'm not sure why some alt med enthusiasts are intent on silencing those with different views, but it makes them look insecure and hostile.

Peace, bro. :)


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Hey Dude,

Why you so defensive? You single-handedly killed the Herbalism Forum.

Be Proud!

Tom


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Hope you had nice holidays, Tom.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

i work with cancer patients using herbs and alternative treatments and can say with authority based on personal experience that the so called 'quack cures' being demonized in this thread can and do work...different ones work for different folks. not all cancers are the same and no two people react the same way to the same type of cancer.

to claim otherwise is, in my humble opinion, irresponsible and dangerous (if it prevents someone who could benefit from being open to the possibilities)

again, my two cents. k


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

"i work with cancer patients using herbs and alternative treatments and can say with authority based on personal experience that the so called 'quack cures' being demonized in this thread can and do work..."

Please cite any good evidence that shark cartilage, Essiac, coral calcium etc. "can and do work" against cancer, using something other than undocumented, anonymous Internet testimonials.

It is irresponsible and dangerous to encourage people to resort to such quackery, especially if they are led to utilize it instead of evidence-based treatment.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

my evidence is based on personal experience working with my clients. if you (eric) were a respectful person who exhibited any interest at all in real learning then i'd be happy to expound in great detail. as it is, i consider it a waste of my time.

now i see what many other posters in various threads here mean about eric_oh...he's not here to learn but to be a bully know it all. i don't tolerate bully boys very well, they are such a bore and waste of time.

instead of directing comments toward the topic being discussed eric's posts often contain personal attacks and insults. what a negative influence that is here! tom is right, you ruined this forum man!

i have only been a member of this forum for a few days but am outta here, heading back to the herb forums where folks who want to share and learn hang out and people like this are blocked. too bad, this could've been a good thing.

if you are a member bothered by this suggest you check out other forums, there are boatloads where no bully boys are allowed : )

i expect eric will deliver a personal insult upon reading this, its what he does apparently. i'm laughing at the certainty of it and knowing i'll never read it!

goodbye serious seekers, thanks for the discussion. k


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Disagreeing with an opinion is not a "personal attack".

On the other hand, referring to another poster as a "bore" and "bully" is a personal attack and creates a negative atmosphere that discourages conversation.

We can't learn anything from a poster who answers a request for more information with insults and then announces they're leaving.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Eric:

Are you still around? I heard that you had died. lol

You may not have made a "personal attack" on KK, but your insistence on documented proof kinda' undermines a person's personal and professional value. Many of us in the natural health field glow inside when we see the results of applying herbal science to an otherwise "incurable" disease. That's our reward for having developed a particular skill.

On the other hand, many of the documented proofs that you require are usually driven by scientific egos of people who are trying to scramble to the top of the media heap for personal recognition. How shallow is that!

So, instead of doubting KK's experiences to YOUR liking, why not trust him as a professional and share in his moment?

I'm just sayin'.

theherbalist2012
Prescott, Arizona


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Charlie - is that you (looks like you changed your handle here)?

Sorry, but questioning a particular belief or statement is not a personal insult, even if the person who holds that belief strongly identifies with it. Responding with insults and gibes is not appropriate, nor is suggesting that researchers who've invested years of their lives in training and study are shallow, ego-driven people.

What's most helpful to this forum is good evidence that herbal treatments work, and information that will help us avoid the ineffective and potentially dangerous ones. If all an advocate has are testimonials (and we've seen how flawed and self-serving those can be), that's important to know.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Yes, testimonials alone without backing it up with scientific principles can be shallow and self-serving. That flaw can certainly apply to all walks of the scientific community, even researchers who invest years of their lives in training and study. Several years in the scientific community doesn't always make a skilled profession. Time in ones field is not a pre-requisite. After all, look at all the decades modern science has dedicated to finding a cure for this or that illness with absolutely no practical results. I'm just sayin'.

Yes, I'm Charlie. Just like to pop my head in once in awhile to shake up your world a bit. lol

Eric, what part of the world do you live in? I'm in Arizona.

theherbalist2012


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

"After all, look at all the decades modern science has dedicated to finding a cure for this or that illness with absolutely no practical results. I'm just sayin'."

Like HIV/AIDS. Whoops, no, what used to be an automatic death sentence is now a long disease-free life for many. Or hepatitis C - no, much more treatable (and even eradicated) for lots of patients. Or successful prevention and treatment strategies for cancers, heart disease and other chronic illnesses.

I'm not sure what the point is in dissing evidence-based medicine, except as a handy distraction from recognizing that there are fake cancer cures, some of them herbal.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Sorry, Eric. You really believe that AIDS patients heal from that disease and now live a disease-free life?!?!?! My latest patients who have come to me with hep c were so disappointed in modern medical regimen that they suffered for years while hoping for a cure from them.

Eradicated??? Are you kidding me? Just because a disease loses popularity in the medical media journals doesn't mean that it's eradicated. It only means we don't hear about it through the normal media since it doesn't make for headline news. And what's behind headline news? Money??

You can't qualify nor quantify "prevention" of any chronic disease. So, you're observation is tainted.

The same aforementioned problems apply to the natural health field sciences as well. The whole world is kinda' screwed up, don't you think?

Again, money and egos is behind most of it.

theherbalist2012


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

theherbalist2012: "(Hepatitis C) Eradicated??? Are you kidding me? Just because a disease loses popularity in the medical media journals doesn't mean that it's eradicated."

Yes, modern medical therapy has made it possible to eradicate hepatitis C infection.

"In summary, chronic HCV infection is curable...and with cure comes improved liver histology and more favorable clinical outcomes."

And it'd be hard to miss the developments in recent years that have made it possible for HIV-positive people to live long and productive lives.

"A 20-year-old HIV-positive person starting antiretroviral (ARV) therapy today can expect to live, on average, to the age of 69, according to new calculations published July 26 in The Lancet."

That's a dramatic improvement when you recall the sad outcomes in the early years after HIV became an epidemic (without antiretroviral drugs, HIV progresses to AIDS within a decade on average and less in some circumstances).

These are just two examples of the many improvements in evidence-based care in recent years.

But since this is a herbalism forum, Charlie, what's your opinion of the herbal remedies mentioned in the opening post on the crackdown on fake cancer cures (specifically, do you think it's a good idea for cancer patients to rely on Essiac tea, or for those with skin cancer to attempt to burn off their lesions with corrosive bloodroot salves?).

Thanks.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

I can't comment on cancer because that's not the area of greatest experience in my field. To say otherwise is illegal and unethical of me.

Eric, just quoting someone else's comments about modern medical cancer treatments gives no credibility to the issue at hand. There are many of us on this site who are in the trenches with actual experience in treating patients. I don't believe you've ever shared your own experiences that would add more weight to your comments. You can't just copy and paste what others have said about treatments. Otherwise, it's merely credulity (blind faith).

I wish you had more to add based on your own experiences. But alas! You're not a practitioner, are you? You seem to be a sharp, intelligent guy. Just a little naive about the so-called accomplishments (or lack thereof) of modern medicine.

There is a lot of fake herbal cures. I'm just not part of it.

theherbalist2012


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Charlie: "I can't comment on cancer because that's not the area of greatest experience in my field. To say otherwise is illegal and unethical of me.
Eric, just quoting someone else's comments about modern medical cancer treatments gives no credibility to the issue at hand."

So you don't have sufficient experience treating cancer and can't comment on cancer quackery because it would be "illegal and unethical" (how exactly?), but quoting experts in the field lacks credibility?

I diagnose cancer on a daily basis as a pathologist and work with oncologists and other physicians who treat it (as well as participating in regular tumor conferences), so I'm familiar with evidence-based treatments and outcomes (as well as the results of relying on quackery). Of course, people can say anything about their personal experiences in a forum such as this and there's no way to confirm it, which is why linking to respected and accurate sources is the best way to establish credibility.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

How many cancer patients (or anything else for that matter) have you cured? Personal experience, please.

theherbalist2012


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Gosh, none Charlie, since that's not my job.

It's odd though that while you apparently do treat some cancer patients as a herbalist, you say you can't comment on your work, but you require that I do so.

How about sharing any published case series of yours, or other documented therapy outcomes (unverifiable testimonials don't count)?


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

If I led you to believe that I treat cancer, then I apologize. I don't treat cancer patients.

I'm more interested in hearing professionals' first-hand experiences. What experience do you have in personally making anyone well? And why do you feel that someone's writing down things gives more credibility than someone who doesn't? Results are more important than the paper work.

Eric, this documentation stuff is sad. I understand, though, that it's all you have in your career. If you don't have the paperwork, you have nothing. You'll discover someday that in the overall scheme of things, your job makes you nothing more than an errand boy. I'll bet you never get to see your efforts come to fruition with the end result of seeing a patient "cured." The whole modern medical system has failed humans.

Do you know how many research results have been falsified? You're part of a corrupt system. Admittedly, there are the same scandalous things going on in the natural health industry.

Eric, when you go into a hospital or a research lab or icu or any other modern medical facility, how much of what you see is the science of medicine? The answer is "none." What you see is the science of technology. It has nothing to do with a healing art.

I'm ranting. I apologize.

theherbalist2012


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Charlie: "And why do you feel that someone's writing down things gives more credibility than someone who doesn't? Results are more important than the paper work."

Someone who is highly trained in their field, knows laboratory techniques, respects the scientific method, follows ethical guidelines, and conducts painstaking research which must pass muster with his/her professional colleagues and has that research published so that it can be reviewed and replicated by other scientists, carries a great deal more weight with me than a person who sets up a website to promote a product or service and justifies his commercial enterprise with unverifiable testimonials.

We're just going to have to disagree on who is more trustworthy.

"...when you go into a hospital or a research lab or icu or any other modern medical facility, how much of what you see is the science of medicine? The answer is "none."

I suggest that you spend some time in a research lab or intensive care unit, meet and talk with the caring and dedicated people there, before dismissing their work so casually.

To get back to the subject of this thread: do you think it's a good idea for people to self-diagnose their skin lesions as cancer and attempt to burn them off with a caustic bloodroot salve? Should cancer patients dismiss evidence-based healthcare workers as unworthy technocrats and instead try to cure their cancers with essiac tea?


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

You're in a system where the blind lead the blind (" painstaking research which must pass muster with his/her professional colleagues")

I've spent much time in labs, icu, etc. during the Vietnam era. I was in the Naval Medical Corps. Dedication and belief in what you're doing doesn't necessarily equate into scientific accuracy. The modern medical world that you're a part has failed to heal people.

By the way, you're pointing out a flaw about natural health care on which I totally agree with you. I cringe when I hear of people using the blood root salve. Often times they get goaded into using it because some modern OR natural health care professional told them that they have a "pre-cancerous" spot on their face. What hogwash! Then they proceed to burn a hole in their skin with blood root salve. A very improper use of blood root. I use blood root, but I'm a professional. And believe it or not, I don't use it in a salve. It's actually good for warming cold damp conditions of the lungs. (Chinese herbology terminology.) But if it's not used properly, it can kill someone.

Some day, I hope you don't wake up after all your student loans are paid off and realize that your education and career actually made no difference in all at helping people get well. People get well sometimes in spite of modern medicine, not due to modern medicine.

On the other hand, trauma . . . That's a different story.

theherbalist2012


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Say, Charlie...would you happen to be Charles Benghauser of Prescott, Arizona? A fellow by that name used to run a commercial forum over at a certain popular alternative medicine website, calling himself The Herbalist. Was that you?

They recall Mr. Benghauser quite well, including his habit of answering health queries by promoting his expensive "liver tonic" ($300 for a liver tonic - wow, that really must cure what ails you!).

Charlie: "Some day, I hope you don't wake up after all your student loans are paid off and realize that your education and career actually made no difference in all at helping people get well."

I guess I can't match Mr. Benghauser's background as described over at that other forum. It makes interesting reading.

Google is a very helpful tool. :)


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Yes, that's me. But the liver tonics aren't $300.00. You've got something wrong, Eric.

By the way, is this information meant to discredit me somehow? It's strange that when you don't like something, you resorted to an attempt to discredit me.

theherbalist2012


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

And another irony meter goes up in smoke.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

you never no


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

This really is my first time i visit here. I identified numerous entertaining stuff inside your weblog, particularly its discussion. From the tons of comments on your articles, I guess I'm not the only one getting all of the leisure right here! Preserve up the good perform.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Who is to say that some of the "fakes" on your list does not help? All you have seemed to accomplish is to say that it has not been proved by the fda or studied. Do you know how many medicines, immunization additives, pain treatments have either not been approved by the fda for the use given, not studied on humans, or studied on children, it is just given. Why? Because supposedly the good surpasses the evils, OR it has been done for a number of years. Without studies how do we even know what these evils are, how am I to be a an educated consumer?

Yet the bad rap goes to the herbal products that have been used to treat different conditions by the medical professionals of the day for hundreds or thousands of years. I would rather trust time proven methods in compared to knew medicines that came from who knows where, made from who knows what, that's full range of side affects is speculative at best.

Question is, who is going to fund the studies on natural medicines? It has been explained to me that no one will because it can't be marketed, they can't put a patent on something that grows in the backyard. If its not going to make them money then its not worth testing. at best there has been some studies on certain herbs to be used in conjunction with a synthetic drug. This was patented.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

"Who is to say that some of the "fakes" on your list does not help?"

Those who've studied cancer quackery, using research studies and clinical observation. Bloodroot for instance has been talked about previously in this forum. Caustic bloodroot salves burn away normal and diseased skin indiscriminately and can fail to eradicate microscopic tumor extensions, leaving you disfigured and at risk of recurrent or metastatic cancer. Essiac tea has never been shown to cure cancer and knowledgeable herbalists shy away from it.

"Do you know how many medicines, immunization additives, pain treatments have either not been approved by the fda for the use given, not studied on humans, or studied on children, it is just given. Why? Because supposedly the good surpasses the evils, OR it has been done for a number of years."

Lots of health quackery has been around for a long time. In China, the idea that consuming the preserved parts of dead relatives cured disease, has existed for hundreds or even thousands of years. Should that "therapy" get a pass because it's ancient?

"Question is, who is going to fund the studies on natural medicines? It has been explained to me that no one will because it can't be marketed, they can't put a patent on something that grows in the backyard. If its not going to make them money then its not worth testing."

Drug companies fund studies on "natural medicines" all the time. Examples of cancer drugs derived from plants include taxol and vincristine. These sorts of drugs are constantly being studied, tested and patented and more are available all the time. Beyond the fact that they make money for drug companies, there's a built-in self-interest in developing them. This may come as a surprise to you, but drug company execs, researchers and government employees (and their families) all get cancer and other diseases just like the rest of us. They'd love for there to be more and better cures.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

It's such a shame that people are out pedaling these fake cures. If we simply lived balanced lives, that would go far towards reducing the chances of having cancer. And if we do have the misfortune of getting cancer, I would still expect cures to come from Epidemiologists and other related experts rather than from these wellness quacks.

Here is a link that might be useful: Epidemiologist


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

  • Posted by jolj 7b/8a-S.C.USA (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 17, 12 at 1:41

If anyone can prove these "Fake Cures" are real.
That is they cure 50% of the cancers out there, then why are there not studies to prove them?
You can not tell me that the big bad drug companies would not jump at a cure to sale.
I am not a Dr. or herbalist, just a common folk.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

big pharma can't make any money from alternative cures, that is why there are no studies.

they have a vested interest in keeping folks sick so they buy the medicines big pharmaceutical companies manufacture.

anytime you wonder about something like this remember to follow the money!


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

So, no one connected to Big Pharma (researchers, other employees, executives etc.) ever gets cancer, or has relatives or friends who do? Do you believe all of them are sociopaths who don't care if they and their loved ones live or die, and so they deliberately suppress cancer cures?

Have you really thought about this?


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

extensively. and have worked in both industries.

decisions like this are made by upper management and i have no way of knowing what their personal psychology is or the choices they make for their own health care. i imagine they seek out the best whether its alternative or mainstream for their own use, it'd be the human thing to do, we want the best for ourselves and our families.

i don't want to be rude eric_oh but i have followed this forum for awhile now and would rather not engage with you personally and directly on any question. because i separate myself from negative folks doesn't mean i don't like them, it just means i like myself more. thanks for understanding.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

As you wish, but you did choose to post in a thread I started, and forum guidelines do not support demands by anyone that posters not respond to them.

"decisions like this are made by upper management and i have no way of knowing what their personal psychology is or the choices they make for their own health care. i imagine they seek out the best whether its alternative or mainstream for their own use, it'd be the human thing to do, we want the best for ourselves and our families."

So, first you said Big Pharma wants to keep people sick to make money, but now you suggest that upper management wants the best for themselves and their families. I agree with that statement - but how do you reconcile it with the belief that these people suppress cancer cures for money? They'd be condemning themselves and their families to death.

As far as them seeking out alternative cures en masse (and in secret), the conspiracy theorists would surely have uncovered the story by now if it were true.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

unless a person has been living under a rock they understand that corporations rip the public off for the sake of the almightly dollar all the time. read about it in the daily news.

individuals often make different choices for themselves than they do for others.

this is not a secret conspiracy, its well known that big pharma operates like this. and not just in the u.s. big pharma eu style is egregious too.

human nature is not rocket surgery

done. if you wanna argue the point do it with someone else.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

6 years ago I was diagnosed with bladder cancer. Shortly after diagnosis, I had a dream about the burdock root.
Afterwards, I went to the local health food store to ask for help with my cancer. The advise I was given was Essiac Tea, which one of the ingredients is burdock root. I took the tea for a long time after diagnosis. I had two initial surgeries to remove the primary tumor and "residual" tumor, but no surgeries since then. I have not had a return of bladder cancer, though my Doctor says it will come back someday. Cancer is like that.

I can't attribute my "cure" to any one thing. My bladder was also assaulted with a serum of diluted tuberculosis bacteria, many times over! My guess is that the cancer was not as aggressive as was subjectively determined by pathologists, however, I do not discount my dream, nor the story behind Essiac Tea.

I'm not saying that it is a "cure." I just know my own story.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Here's more on how modified TB bacilli (BCG) are used to treat bladder cancer.

And more on essiac tea.

Thankfully, the previous poster used proven methods to eradicate her bladder cancer, in addition to using essiac tea.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

rosemary o,

so glad you're doing well, celebrate each day!


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

truth be known, shouldn't doctors be paid on an incentive basis, i.e., if the treatment is effacious, then he gets paid, if not, just bare expenses gets reimbursed by the patient. You would be surprised to see how many doctors would move from the upper class to below the middle class in income.
btw, all lawyers should be compensated in the same way.
you should be paid for performance, not the label of your profession!!!


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

  • Posted by cacye Denver,CO (My Page) on
    Tue, Jun 5, 12 at 6:28

Both my parents died from cancer. I don't know which was worse: dad who let medicine suck everything from him--the radiation , the chemo, only to die three years later in horrendous pain; or mom, who just decided to die. Say what you will, cancer is not medically predictable or medically treatable if the docdors won't see it and treat it. Mom know she was sick and tried to get it looked at for over A YEAR before any doctors took her seriously. By then, her brain tumor was inoperable. Doctors are lazy. They say get things looked at soon, but the themselves won't look at a lot of things until its too late. It is no wonder that patients turn to other things for help.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Cayce:

I feel for you. I, too, lost my dad in the hands of the modern medicos. Here's the kicker: At the time, I was in the Naval Medical Corps during the Vietnam thing. There wasn't a thing that I nor they could do to keep him from dying at the age of 63.

Modern medicine doesn't have the means nor the know-how to cure disease.

theherbalist
charlie


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

"Modern medicine doesn't have the means nor the know-how to cure disease."

So Charlie, if you suddenly developed severe crushing chest pain, what Chinese herbs would you take?

I was recently re-reading one of my Euell Gibbons books to find a serviceberry recipe* and found Gibbons' insights on herbal and mainstream medical care. Of course, his emphasis was on using herbs for food and medicine, but he also made clear that we'd be foolish not to combine herbal remedies with mainstream treatments. His message unfortunately has not reached some participants in this forum.

*My wife makes terrific serviceberry muffins. We've had a bumper crop of berries this year (they are reportedly high in iron, as well as being very tasty).

Here is a link that might be useful: Cancer death rates continue to decline


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Eric:

You're using one of the oldest approaches to convincing arguments. You're using exaggeration. That's a very good attempt on your part.

But believe me when I tell you that there are worse things than death. And your scenario isn't realistic in my case. I would sooner go out in the woods and die than to rely on the poor skills of a modern medico. They're the highest form of quackery civilization has ever experienced. So-called modern medicine is actually in the dark ages of the healing arts.

By the way, Euell Gibbons was NOT a professional herbalist. He just made a good name for himself and became popular especially on the cereal commercials ("Tastes like wild hickory nuts.")

I admire you for your credulity.

Charles
theherbalist


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Congratulations on being immune to heart attacks and other disorders where proper medical attention is lifesaving. But not all of us are content to "go out in the woods and die" to make a point about disdain for modern medicine.

As for Euell Gibbons, I respect his practical knowledge and wisdom about combining herbal usage with mainstream medicine. He may not have been a "professional herbalist" - but what entitles you to that designation, Mr. Benghauser? I've seen it stated that you went to furniture refinishing school, have a flooring company and sell mobile homes, which is nice, but doesn't seem to relate to prescribing herbal treatments.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Charlie, it's swell that you have a career in flooring. But since this is an herbalism forum and you were sneering at Euell Gibbons (who's written extensively on herbalism and natural foods and has provided good practical advice on herbs and health), it's reasonable to ask what your training and expertise in herbalism is. The advice you've given here thus far raises red flags.

Anyone who's been on this forum awhile knows I'm an M.D. (pathologist) with an interest in medicinal herbs. That doesn't make me a "professional" as regards herbalism, but my training (and background over a dozen years or more on this board) does help me evaluate health advice and claims made for herbs and supplements (and the people who promote them).


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Eric:

Doesn't "MD" stand for mad dog?

I wouldn't give you two cents for the medical degree. I have no respect for that field.

And you have what? A dozen years of criticizing anyone who doesn't meet your standards? Don't judge, Eric.

Charlie
theherbalist


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

  • Posted by cacye Denver,CO (My Page) on
    Fri, Jun 22, 12 at 1:38

In physiology I learned that everyone makes anywhere from 100,000 or so to 400,000 or so cancer cells A DAY. Your immune system kills them if they no longer kill themselves. Therefore, what makes your immune system better probably helps. Many herbs do this. What needs to be understood more is that because of the TH1 and TH2 energy pathways, different herbs work for different people. This needs more study. Diet has an effect as well, read the China Study. Those of you who have cancer, do what you can to live, regardless of what the medical community says if they didn't bother to find your problem until it was too late. I have known many people who went to doctor after doctor who found nothing until they were so sick they were dying. This is not uncommon, unfortunately.


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

"In physiology I learned that everyone makes anywhere from 100,000 or so to 400,000 or so cancer cells A DAY."

This is a common claim on alt med sites, but I've never seen evidence to back it up. The misunderstanding seems to relate to the fact that cells in the body are constantly wearing out, developing chromosomal defects etc. and are removed by normal body physiologic mechanisms - but these are not "cancer" cells until they start to divide uncontrollably and form a tumor. Your body doesn't need help from herbs to carry out its immune functions, few if any herbs have been found to enhance immunity in human beings, and if they did we'd have to be concerned about nonspecific hyperimmunity leading to autoimmune diseases.

http://www.cancer.org/acs/groups/cid/documents/webcontent/003042-pdf.pdf

"I have known many people who went to doctor after doctor who found nothing until they were so sick they were dying. This is not uncommon, unfortunately."

What is the rate of cancer detection by alternative practitioners? What early detection systems do they have to rival (for example) mammography and colonoscopy in the diagnosis of breast and colon cancers?


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Eric, are you gay?


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

Oh dear. Another cancer thread again? Is it really so necessary to bring these things up?


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RE: Fake Cancer Cures - Update

This thread is six (6) years old, and was dormant for over two years until someone decided to make a "contribution".

Was it really necessary to revive the thread for that purpose, or to lament that it was started six years ago?

To add something that may be of actual interest to readers, here's an article on reality vs. hype in promotion of cannabis as a cancer cure.


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