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My child has enlarged adenoids

Posted by amadeus (My Page) on
Thu, Nov 2, 06 at 19:32

For the last year my 2.5 yr old daughter has had chronic ear infections so we were referred to a specialist in pediatric otolaryngology. He found that she has enlarged adenoids that are keeping fluid from properly draining from the ear.
His solution is to a)remove the adenoids and b)put drain tubes in her ears for 10 months.
As a parent my instinct tells me to take his solution as a last alternative. I asked him what the alternatives are and his response was "other than not treating it there is no other alternative". What bothers me is that he has no idea what is causing it. So to me, his approach is like throwing a stone in the dark.
So now Im in research mode looking for other ways to resolve the the issue. Im looking for recommendations on what direction I should go. What kind of doctor should I seek out? What kind of treatments are availabe whether its homeopathic, herbal, or nutrition?
Thank you for any help.
Joshua


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

One of the complications of enlarged adenoids is recurrent ear infections. From this site:

"Having your child's adenoids removed is especially important when repeated infections lead to sinus and ear infections. Badly swollen adenoids can interfere with ear pressure and fluid movement, which can sometimes lead to hearing loss. Therefore, kids whose infected adenoids cause frequent earaches and fluid buildup may need to get an adenoidectomy as well as ear tube surgery."

So delays in treatment due to ineffective remedies such as homeopathic drugs could lead to hearing loss and problems associated with airway blockage.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

So, once adenoids are swollen they never go down? I remember when I was a kid when tonsils were yanked out at the slightest provocation too.
My questions are, what causes adenoids to swell, can they go down and can you prevent all the ear infections by keeping fluid out of the ears?
I really don't know, which is why I am asking.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Adenoids tend to shrink after early childhood years, though they may become (or remain) enlarged in adults, which is why they are sometimes removed to treat sleep apnea (enlarged adenoids can cause airway obstruction, a factor identified in sleep apnea).

Adenoids are composed mostly of lymphoid tissue and swell because they are part of the immune system chain for processing and destroying infectious agents (ones that get into the mouth and/or are inhaled).

In this case, the doctor believes that the adenoid enlargement is preventing drainage of fluid from the ears and that this promotes repeated ear infections. I can understand a parent being concerned about a recommendation for surgery (and maybe a second opinion would be reassuring), but I don't know of any nutritional or herbal remedies that could be expected to shrink adenoids and prevent recurrent ear infections that potentially could damage a child's hearing.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

It's true that enlarged adenoids can lead to fluid retention in the ears. However, if you haven't already tried some of these steps, you might consider them before the surgery date is set. Have you investigated all causes of allergies? Do you have pets? Have you tried elimination diets to see if your daughter is allergic to something she is eating? Not all allergies cause hives. She may have an allergy that is causing a reaction where her adenoids and sinus linings swell. Dairy is often a culprit. You might try eliminating all dairy for 1 month to see if there is an improvement. Other things to watch for is MSG (monosodium glutamate) and is in so much food, not just Chinese. Double check any snack foods and crackers, processed foods, etc. as they OFTEN contain MSG. Also, avoid aspartame (NutraSweet)and that is also in tons of things - many yogurts as well. Then, be cautious in case she has something like dust mite allergies. Vacuum like there is no tomorrow and wash her bed linens every other day. The lamp shade in her bedroom may need to be changed, curtains washed, etc. These efforts may be enough to reduce the inflammation she is having. It certainly is worth the effort to try. Good luck.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

As was mentioned in another recent discussion here of ear infections, food allergies are considered very unlikely to be a cause of this problem. As far as environmental factors that lead to increased ear infections, being around smokers and large numbers of susceptible children (i.e. in day care settings) are recognized risk factors.

Adenoids do tend to shrink eventually in older children. The situation here is that a specialist in pediatric ear, nose and throat problems has identified a curable problem that could lead to hearing loss. It's up to the parent in the OP to decide whether taking time to chase down phantom issues is worth the risk to the child.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Well, I'd always get a second opinion before diving into surgery.
As I am suffering from side affects considered VERY UNLIKELY (I hear this term a lot before being told that, welp, in my case, it is likely) Just because it is UNLIKELY, doesn't mean that it's not the case. I had a great doctor once who found out once after twisting some AMA bigwigs' arms that yes, even though only ONE person was known to have my problem, it DID exist and I had it. 'Unlikely' has become a disposable term for me. Since this isn't exactly a life threatening problem, I don't see why trying allergies first would be a problem.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Well, here's a story... As a young child, I had earaches all the time! I missed loads of school and hated the meds I had to take. Finally when I was 8, the MD said to get my tonsils and adenoids out... well it was done, over in two days, and to this day - 50 yrs later!!! I have never had another earache (and hardly any colds)!


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RE: My child's enlarged adenoids

You know, your letter is bothering me so much I have to write again. I cannot fathom a father who'd take advice from strangers on the internet about home remedies for what is a no-brainer medical problem long understood by MD's and so easily taken care of by a hugely safe procedure that so many, many children have had over time! I just find it amazing, and even reprehensible. It's one thing to chance something like that on yourself, but for your child?


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

What Lucy is telling you is the equivalent of clipping off a child's finger when they have an infection on their finger as enlarged adenoids are only an infection in the adenoids that can be easily remedied by non-allopathic treatments. Even worse is that the adenoids and tonsils are part of the immune system for protecting young children until they are five!!! Something has lowered your child's immune response and that has allowed for germs to attack her adenoids (the first line of defense for a child's immune system). They are enlarged because they are trying to eliminate the germs that come into her system when she is breathing. Most important in all of this is what are you feeding to your child (i.e. is it organic and does she have any allergic reactions to foods), what environment she plays in, what products do you use to bathe her and put on her skin. These things which enter your child's body lowers their pH level that creates an environment for germs to attack the body leading to all sorts of illnesses including enlarged adenoids. First you need to understand how the human body works (especially the importance of pH plays in keeping us healthy) and second what you can do to bring her body back into balance which will then take care of the problem with the adenoids and the chronic ear infections (possibly with the help of an herbal remedy). Two books that I would recommend are "The Battle for Health Is Over pH" by Gary Tunsky and "Herbal Home Health Care" by Dr. John R. Christopher. Once you have this information I think you will be in a better position to treat it, as you will understand better the source of the problem, without possibly traumatising your child with surgery as Lucy recommends.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

The analogy between lopping off a finger and removing adenoids doesn't make sense - mainly because adenoids are not vital as a defense against infection.

As mentioned before, it's important not to overestimate the role of allergies in a child's having enlarged adenoids (when allergies do occur, they're far more likely to involve dust or such environmental sources as stuffed animals, pillows, comforters etc., not food). Chronic upper respiratory tract infections are seen as the major reasons that adenoids enlarge.

Body pH is maintained in a very narrow range by the body's physiologic mechanisms; foods and cosmetic products do not affect this.

Finally, surgical removal of tonsils and adenoids is done considerably less these days, common indications being numerous repeated infections or breathing problems. The surgery is mostly an outpatient procedure and the aftereffects (i.e. sore throat) usually are over with within a week. For parents, it's a matter of choosing between having children suffer the possibly serious effects of adenoid enlargement (hearing loss, time lost from school and discomfort from repeated infections and dental problems) or the brief "trauma" of surgery.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I certainly can see someone trying to find something to try before resorting to surgery. I mean, there certainly are excessive c-sections done (such an EASY operation! Just do it! Better than hours of labor!) And if a person has fibroids, remove the ovaries too, you don't need them!(this I have personal experience with) So... knowing that excessive surgeries are performed and excessive antibiotics given, why NOT look for an alternative first? course, it's not good to question authority... that means that you don't think that doctors know everything!


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I can see someone looking for alternatives also, and one decent option in that situation is to get a second medical opinion (i.e. from a pediatrician with expertise in infectious disease and allergy).

As I mentioned before, tonsil and adenoid surgeries are done less often now than they were in the past, and the basic indications relate to protecting the child from worse problems in the future (hearing loss, dental problems, endless infections etc.). What's concerning is the idea that a parent would put his/her child at risk by undergoing an extensive trial of various alternative/Internet remedies that have no relationship to enlarged adenoids and little to no chance of doing any good.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Your statement, "Body pH is maintained in a very narrow range by the body's physiologic mechanisms; foods and cosmetic products do not affect this" is flawed. And even more so is your remark about food and cosmetic based allergies. First in relation to food, if you are eating foods that are filled with toxins (i.e. all the chemicals that they put in foods to change the taste, or for longer shelf life, etc) or generally acidic like meats, dairy products, sweets, etc your body is forced to use its buffer of alkaline materials to flush this from your system. Your body depends on having alkaline materials in order to flush any materials that after it has oxidized what you have eaten it cannot use. That material is acidic by nature. There isn’t enough space to provide you with the general chemistry of it here but read "Reverse Aging" by Sang Wang if you would like to know more. Once this buffer is used up, your body starts stealing alkaline materials from your bones and other parts of your body in order to maintain your blood in the narrow pH around 7.3. If this strategy fails to consistently maintain your blood at this level, it starts to push acidic materials to non vital parts of your body (i.e. like your joints leading to a build up uric acid that leads to arthritis) finally when this fails there is no other strategy left so your cells that depending upon what area of your body maintaining a certain equilibrium for regeneration (and need the right environment of which pH is an indicator) either die off or become cancerous. As for the allergies, it's only necessary to weaken the immune response in general. Your body is not oxidizing the substance you have eaten and unable to break it down and properly absorb it thus becoming even worse organic waste that requires the use of alkaline materials to flush from your body leading to the process described earlier. Once the body is more acidic, germs that your immune system could normally fight off easily find a hospitable environment (i.e. like mosquities are always in stagnant water, but never in fresh water because the conditions for its survival do not exist) to create all variety of infections including enlarged adenoids as one of the main entry points for germs into your body is through your nose and with a hospitable environment forces the immune system to work harder. The key to all diseases even so-called chronic diseases is too much acidic waste in your body. If you maintain your pH at the optimum level of 7.3 and eat foods, use healthy products for your skin (your primary interface with the environment), breath clean air and live in a stress free way, you will stay healthy and not get sick. You would do well to read the first book that I mentioned about pH. Your analysis is flawed. I speak from experience with my daughter.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Thurstjo - I do believe you believe Sang Wang's ideas here are right and good, but your daughter may just have recovered (from what?) anyway - people do. Because the stuff you wrote (I guess from SW's ideas) is truly gibberish scientifically and I think you should investigate some other ideas before adopting these wholesale.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"Your statement, "Body pH is maintained in a very narrow range by the body's physiologic mechanisms; foods and cosmetic products do not affect this" is flawed."

It's standard knowledge in medicine. Here's an introduction to the subject.

Now if you ate a really big dose of bicarbonate you might at least temporarily cause harm by altering your body's pH (acid-base balance). But I was referring to a reasonable healthy diet and use of common cosmetics, which don't cause any of the dire consequences you refer to. People typically don't display excess acidity (acidosis) unless they're seriously ill from one of a number of causes (including some respiratory diseases) or have taken certain kinds of poison. It doesn't happen because you've eaten commercial prepared foods. And it certainly doesn't have anything to do with why kids' adenoids get too big.

"The key to all diseases even so-called chronic diseases is too much acidic waste in your body. If you maintain your pH at the optimum level of 7.3 and eat foods, use healthy products for your skin (your primary interface with the environment), breath clean air and live in a stress free way, you will stay healthy and not get sick."

I agree with you that avoiding stress and having clean air to breathe are of importance in staying healthy. People don't have to worry about their body's pH though - the body does a fine job of maintaining the normal level of around 7.4 on its own.
It's tempting to think that there's some Holy Grail for curing all diseases (it's a common theme in alternative medicine), but things aren't so simple in real life.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

You know... I was watching some science show where the CDC was desperately trying to figure out the vector for the hanta virus... while the Navajo shaman had it figured out... mice... before the CDC figured it out. Probably the CDC pooh-poohed that too. Though I am not a believer in Sang Wang's theory, sometimes alternative medicines can come to the same conclusion as western science.... I am wondering why Eric and lucy are in here... just to stir things up a bit? I will warn you, if you haven't noticed yet, MY middle of the road opinion is not popular here... so your pro Western medicine approach is probably less popular... and probably ignored. I don't think you are helping... if that's your intent.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Heathen -
The CDC and the US Public Health Service did NOT pooh-pooh the Navajo elders. They very delicately (because of the strong death taboo in that tribe) interviewed them to see what was different about that epidemic year.

It was the RAIN. The elders didn't connect it to mice, but did recall a similar epidemic decades earlier when there was also heavy rain.

Eric and Lucy are here to provide the other side of the DISCUSSION ... this is not automatically pro-herbs, nor anti herbs.

But in the OP's case ... removal of the adenoids for repeated infections is about the only reason they do it in children.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Thanks, lazygardens.

In addition to posting here, I am also a member of an anti-healthfraud discussion list. Many of the members have a highly skeptical and sometimes caustic opinion of herbal remedies in general, so my defense of some herbal drugs and the research studies that support them is not all that popular over there. I take the critiques from that side in the same spirit as those from the pro-herbal/anti-mainstream medicine side in this forum --- if they are evidence-based and add to my and others' knowledge (and don't depend on personal attacks), fine.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I'm not knocking alternative meds any more than I knock someone's religion, ESP or anything else that's can't be 'proven' scientifically, and if something works for you and you really stay better, and don't develop side effects, terrific. All I get upset about is people dosing children real illnesses with something strangers on this machine tell them about, with no idea of whether or not their child could react very seriously to the potions. In fact I see it as on a par with abuse. It's one thing for an adult to choose someone's sister's husband's 'remedy' for a skin problem, another to foist the same thing on a child - in your ignorance and quite possibly to his/her detriment.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

All health revolves around how well your body gets rid of these organic waste products from your interaction (food, cosmetics, air, etc) with your environment. PH is an indicator of how well your body is disposing of wastes and the general well-being of your body. I was off a bit with my pH indication. (My understanding is that range for blood is between 7.30 – 7.45 - sorry for the error eric). Even with a so-called "reasonable diet", foods that your body are unable to absorb (i.e. allergic foods) and cosmetics have an acidic effect on your body. If you are not getting enough alkaline materials from your environment (including your diet or from highly alkaline water), which the majority of the population is not, you don't have enough alkaline materials to neutralize and eliminate the acidic waste products in your body. Once you don't have enough alkaline materials due to poor diet and overexposure to chemical and environmental toxins the body's inherent buffers kick in to try and neutralize acids in your system;
1. Increase oxygenation - taking carbonic dioxide out of the carbonic acids making the blood more alkaline;
2. Utilize amino acid reserves - cysteine, taurine, glutathione and methionine from protein digestion and pull them into the blood thus the need for high quality proteins in your diet;
3. Utilizing high pH body fluids - lymph and saliva thus the need to keep the body properly hydrated (avoiding coffee, alcohol, carbonated drinks and high sodium foods;
4. Pulling high pH Electrolytes from Bones, Teeth and Muscles - taking calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium and vital trace minerals thus the need for ionic or plant based minerals in your diet;
5. Filtering Acids through the Body's Elimination Routes - dispersion of excess acids through the filtration and elimination systems of skin, urinary tract, colon, and respiratory system thus the need to exercise (i.e. sweat), drink high pH water, keep the colon cleansed, increase respiration, purify the liver and kidneys;
6. Manufacture high pH Bicarbonate Ions - via CO2, diffusing them into the blood plasma to perform neutralization;
7. Pushing excess acids to outer extremities - If still not eliminated the body will push the excess acids and toxins into the outer extremities as a storage bin away from the vital organs. Examples of low priority storage areas are wrists (carpel tunnel syndrome), knees (osteoarthritis), feet and toes (gout), skin (dermatitis and eczema), in the joints and fingers (rheumatoid arthritis) and tissues (fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue and other degenerative diseases);
8. Dumping Acids into the blood and vital organs - After non vital organs are filled, excess acid is dumped into the blood that then is transferred into the vital organs through circulation. At this point the body will start to manifest serious disease conditions such as blood disorders, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, debilitating arthritis and/or a host of chronic degenerative diseases.
This toxic load destroys cells and damages your DNA, overloads the overloads the filtration systems, routes, cells and immune system leading to degenerative disease and premature death. Depending on what is the weakest organ in the chain of organs for storage, that is were the toxins will be transferred. Note how the targeted organ for acid deposition correlates with the descriptive label of cellular malfunction used by medical science. If acid storage is around the pancreatic beta cells for producing insulin the label is diabetes mellitus. If acid toxins accumulate in the colon, you will exhibit symptoms of what is called diverticulitis, Crohn's disease, leaky gut, dysbiosis, constipation or colon cancer. If acid toxins accumulate around the myelin sheathing of the nerves, it will be either Multiple Sclerosis or ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease). If its around the nerve fibers, it's Guillain-Barré or myasthenia gravis. Finally if it is around the cells that produce dopamine its called Parkinson's disease. Note that all can be cured (unless the organs has broken down completely and needs to be replaced) by eliminating the acids from your body via following an alkaline diet, increasing oxygen, exercising, and cleaning your vital liver, colon and kidneys. As for minor ailments or infections (cellular malfunction), these are your body telling you that are out of balance since otherwise your immune system would deal with them without you noticing it. I would say focus your assumptions (which based on what you have written leads me to think that you believe the Pasteur is sacrosanct). Change your assumptions and your model of health will change. Do some research on Pasteur and Antoine Béchamp. I think that you will open yourself up to a new world that will allow for you and your family to have healthy and enriching lives. If my comments previously have offended either lucy or eric, you have my sincerest apologies.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Sorry to add to my posting. My focus is on having a model of health (as you may not be aware of but we all have in relation to health) that is consistent across all diseases. I do not look for silver bullets, I focused first on understanding how our body works and how we get ill by going back to understand Pasteur and that led me to Antoine Béchamp who by reading his book and many others including those already mentioned lead me to a different model of health. Once I had the model, then I applied it to my daughter's problem of enlarged adenoids, i.e. eliminating certain foods from her diet and a natural remedy. The result speaks for itself.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Rather than repeating myself on the actual role of pH, and the lack of evidence for a "model of health...that is consistent across all diseases", I suggest that anyone wanting to follow up on these theories use Google to search for reliable sites that list quality references and are not out to sell you products. Examples are www.nccam.nih.gov, www.cdc.gov, www.quackwatch.org and many medical university websites. Look for studies validating a treatment in a large number of cases, rather than individual testimonials for therapies and products.

Only with adequate research and not reliance on what unknown people advise in this forum, can you make an informed decision on what therapy is effective, and what the potential risks are of bypassing such therapy in order to try a variety of unproven treatments.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Like HRTs? Can the medical community MAKE UP IT's MIND? Take HRT's, don't take them... sounds like the first directive, to take HRT's was an UNPROVEN TREATMENT! *gasp* Sounds like bad science to me! Or the medicine on the market that's suddenly taken off? Would those be UNPROVEN treatments? I suppose, it's much better to trust mainstream unproven medicine than unproven herbalism?
Like I said... I am not a believer in Mr. Wang... but a lot of herbalism that's proven effective has been passed down for generations by word of mouth.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I'm a big fan of herbal remedies, health maintenance so medicine is not an issue, etc. As a mother I would pursue alternatives to surgery too.

Dunno if it helps, but I had ear infections as a child, they were terrible, and when I was 8 I had my adenoids removed. The next day I went home and I haven't had a problem since.

Now there may be some key physical or metaphysical use for adenoids that I don't know about, but so far I have not stumbled upon it.

Best,
PJ


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Heathen - you've actually proven my point here yourself! Yes, HRT's have now been found to cause (sometimes) worse problems than loss of estrogen in menopause, but it WAS proven scientifically in controlled studies, and the reason it took so long is because the 'problems' (cardiac and certain cancers) can take many years to manifest themselves, and because they are so common (whether you're on HRT's or not), science had to prove the connection between the HRT's and e.g. cardiac problems, not just assume it, but doctors never stopped researching the drugs (which women demanded so strongly) and did come up with solid answers, not speculation. Research today may be looked on as faulty in the future, but science is doing its best with what's available today, and that's all that can be done.


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I have found THIS article
And yet, consumers are somewhat justified in their comfort with botanicals and other supplements. Far fewer people suffer adverse reactions to herbs than to pharmaceutical drugs. There’s currently no mandatory adverse event reporting system for supplements or nonprescription drugs, so monitoring the number of harmful effects is challenging. However, a study published in The Lancet found that there were only a few hundred calls in one year to U.S. poison control centers involving probable adverse events of dietary supplements. In contrast, another study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, found that there were more than 200,000 adverse reactions to pharmaceutical drugs reported by hospitals in one year, and half of the reactions were fatal


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

What's the article?

Wherever it's from, the conclusions it reaches are hard to justify regarding herbs/supplements and pharmaceuticals. Apart from the lack of reporting of adverse events for supplements, they are taken less commonly than prescription drugs and mostly by people who do not have serious and life-threatening illnesses (the sicker you are, the more likely a drug can have a negative impact). And when you consider that many supplements do not contain the active ingredients or have the effects advertised for them, it's easy to see how prescription drugs (which cannot be approved without demonstrated effectiveness) come with more side effects. In general, the more power a drug has to influence body chemistry, the more likely it also is to be associated with some risk of an adverse reaction.

But the view that there should be an adversarial relationship between alt and mainstream medicine misses the point, I think. We stand to benefit the most when mainstream and the best of alternative medicine complement each other. Let's concentrate on highlighting the remedies that do work and have the greatest chance of helping people.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Sorry gents. Eric wants to present himself as some sort of authority but he is, as is all of us, only expressing a point of view based on his model of health and medicine that is different from mine. Note he never challenged what I said instead he tried to dismiss it. I would be interested for him to summarise as I did, how humans become ill and how this relates to enlarged adenoids. In my view, If you want to understand fully about pH, first learn the history and the theory underlying it - Pleomorphism - came about, vs the theory of monomorphism (from Pasteur) and how they relate to pH. Read about Antoine Béchamp, Pasteur and then read about present day doctors such as Dr. Robert Young, author of the "pH Miracle". As for the institutions that eric mentions, please do talk to them also. Ask them the same questions. Hearsay, when someone presents themselves as an authority, but is incapable of explaining how they came to that conclusion is a waste of time. Make sure that the model that they provide you is self-consistent (as scientists are obliged to do in other sciences where they should be able to fit all diseases within it just as relativity theory can still be used to explain Newtonian physics). Above all base your decision on science. According to eric, pH plays a somewhat minor role in your health. According to me, it plays a major role. The hidden assumptions of accepting what eric says is that you will end up in most cases dependent on drug companies most of your life to stay healthy as any time you are sick you will run to a doctor to give a something that in almost every case will suppress the symptom of whatever illness you have but never address the underlying cause and the side effects of which will leave you in a worse state. The hidden assumptions of accepting what I say is that you are always in control of your health and in most cases, simple changes in your diet, and flushing your body of acidic toxins will address the underlying cause of your illneess and keep you healthy at a fraction of the cost!!! My daughter is healthy, still has her adenoids and she's not had the trauma of surgery. If my daughter or myself had an accident, I would not hesitate to use an allopathic doctor as I feel that this type of medicine serves me and my family best in this situation as the cause of my condition is the accident, but for any other illness, based on the model that I have developed from my studies, allows me to get at the underlying cause, the testimonials I have read and my own experience in applying it with my daughter, I know where I stand. Examine the science, make notes, ask questions from a wide range of people from all different scientific and medical backgrounds as well as understand the motivations people have for expressing a particular point of view and decide for yourself! Merry Christmas!!!

Here is a link that might be useful: pH Miracle site including testimonials


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Yes, that's pretty miraculous stuff - from a guy who claims that red blood cells are "transformed" into bacteria and vice versa (a belief that, like his sweeping claims for pH and health, has no validity) and whose website is big on trying to sell us stuff. Here's what one anti-health fraud website has to say about Dr. Young:

"Robert O. Young, author of The pH Miracle, The pH Miracle for Diabetes, and The pH Miracle for Weight Loss, claims that health and weight control depend primarily on proper balance between an alkaline and acid environment that can be optimized by eating certain foods. These claims are false [7].Young offers educational retreats that include a private blood cell analysis and "nutritional consultation" at his 45-acre estate in Valley Center, California. In 1996, under a plea bargain, Young pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of attempted practice of medicine without a license and was promised that the charge would be dismissed if he stayed out of trouble for 18 months. Young claimed that he had looked at blood samples from two women and simply gave them nutritional advice [8]. The blood test he advocates (live-cell analysis) has no scientific validity [9]. Young's "credentials" include doctoral degrees in nutrition, science, and naturopathy from the American Holistic College of Nutrition. His Web site claims that he "has been widely recognized as one of the top research scientists in the world," and his book states that he "has gained national recognition for his research into diabetes, cancer, leukemia, and AIDS." Yet he, too, has had nothing published in a recognized scientific journal."

As mentioned (and described in the link I provided earlier) the causes and consequences of enlarged adenoids are well understood on the basis of medical knowledge, not personal opinion. Here's more on the subject.

thurstjo said: "Examine the science, make notes, ask questions from a wide range of people from all different scientific and medical backgrounds as well as understand the motivations people have for expressing a particular point of view and decide for yourself!"

I agree.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

And here's what Gabe Mirkin M.D. (who is board-certified in pediatrics and pediatric immunology in addition to hosting a popular syndicated radio program) has to say about acid-base balance and disease.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Eric - do you get the feeling you're not going to convert Thurs. anytime soon? Somehow rational thinking just doesn't cut it sometimes!


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I'm not really out to convert anybody - as thurstjo says, look at the science and who's presenting claims, then decide for yourself.

Anyway, Merry Xmas. :)

e.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

So, lucy... you came here to convert people away from herbalism to Western meds? Good luck! Most people left Western medical philosophy for a reason. I should probably list some of the side affects that I have gotten from various meds that I have taken in the last 10 years...
One made me pass kidney stones every day! Instead of taking me off that one, they just handed me a bottle of vicodins! Excuse me? Some of them had MULTIPLE godawful side affects. One gave me neuropathy AND lipidostrophy AND made me enter into early menopause (temporarily) Some made me wake up screaming obscenities! And this is a KNOWN side affect! You tell me how these meds are better than herbs? I told my physician... that's it.. If I die from going off my meds, so be it, at least I will have a quality of life, and of course the physician of the moment decided that I was 'just depressed' and prescribed an anti-depressant that gave me double vision.... so, I got a new doc. After one has had to make a quality of life decision, and has come out the other side alive and well.... somehow it diminishes Western Medicine's importance in my life.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

My only beef is with people who want to put their CHILDREN on unproven inconsistent (and unresearched) doses of something or other that they've heard of from some strangers on the web. That's all. PS - I'd change your MD - that's not normal (though anyone can have kidney stones at some point in their lives)!


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I especially enjoyed this comment from Quackwatch, "The blood test he advocates (live-cell analysis) has no scientific validity". Given that blood is the most important part of the body its important to look at blood in both its dried and live state as each gives a different perspective on your health. (Note in Germany for example a live blood test is required in a consultation). In a live blood analysis it is not uncommon for blood cells transform themselves into bacteria and fungi, especially with patients that have cancer, as most blood cells die off but others, trying to survive in an anaerobic environment evolves into organisms that can survive in these environments. As for the practicing medicine charge leveled against Dr. Young, please note that in the US, FDA mandates that only a drug can cure you of any illness. So if you had scurvy and someone gave you advice to take vitamin C or an advertisement says that vitamin C will cure you of scurvy than the FDA can sue them and seize their assets for practicing medicine without a license!!! I am not aware of all the details of the case, but I note that non-allopathic doctors will use terms such as "helping the body to heal itself" or "reverse a condition" in order to avoid being sued by the FDA (who remember is funded by the major drug companies) Dr. Young has documented cases of using his diet for reversing diabetes, cancer, leukemia, and AIDS. Of course for the medical establishment this is a major threat as they have spent billions and have billions to protect in keeping conventional treatments in people's minds as they way to treat these illnesses. Finally as for the medical studies, one would need to know what medical journals quackwatch is speaking of and who funds them to make a decision as to why Dr. Young's work has been not been published in them. As for Dr. Mirkin that you mentioned in the other link, note that he is consistent with what I said in terms of how your body functions (it tries to maintain your vital organs in its proper pH range. Your body does what it needs to maintain your blood pH between 7.30 – 7.45 as your body does what is required to all your vital organs in its proper range. The organic and inorganic materials needed to do this is and to help your body to neutralise are what I am talking about. What he doesn't mention or misses is in terms of eliminating waste products after metabolism, without alkaline food and water, they would be fatal if they pass through you organs and for this you body needs alkaline materials in order to neutralise them. Your colon, liver and kidney need these materials to be able to properly flush waste products from your body. When these materials start lacking in your diet and activities, all the buffering processes that I mentioned before kick in. When you measure your urine pH or saliva pH, it gives you an indication of how well your body is functioning. If it is not functioning well, cellular malfunction sets in and we become ill. As for when Dr. Mirkin says, "Promoters of these products claim that cancer cells cannot live in an alkaline environment and that is true, but neither can any of the other cells in your body", last time I checked your blood cells need to be in the alkaline (above 7.0) environment!?! As for quackwatch, they seem intent on discrediting everything that is not allopathic (see California Supreme Court , Barrett v. Rosenthal decision on Nov. 20, 2006 Case Number S122953) or (http://www.quackpotwatch.org). They basically function as an arm of the Federation of States Medical Boards whose policy statement is enlightening as to what they think of "alternative medicines" (http://www.fsmb.org). That's their choice also. My choice based on my studies on health is to go down the naturalist path. If you want to know more, read Antoine Béchamp's "The Blood and its Third Anatomical Element"; "Rethinking Pasteur's Germ Theory: How to Maintain Your Optimal Health" by Nancy Appleton; "Béchamp or Pasteur? A Lost Chapter in the History of Biology" by Ethel Douglas Hume; "The Cancer Cure That Worked: Fifty Years of Suppression" by Barry Lynes (About Royal Raymond Rife); "The Detox Book: How to Detoxify Your Body to Improve Your Health, Stop Disease, and Reverse Aging" by Bruce Fife. There are many others such as Dr. Richard Schulze or Dr. John Christopher who as the others I have mentioned have different researched viewpoint, but consistent with the model of health that I expressed here, from what eric or lucy are expressing (which I assume is that surgery is the preferred way of dealing with enlarged adenoids). And note that they have been solving the problem of enlarged adenoids, applying the principles expressed in this model, in a simple manner for many years without surgery as again is the case with my daughter.

Here is a link that might be useful: Site dedicated to the work of Antoine Béchamp


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Responding briefly to just a few things not covered earlier:

Neither Germany nor any other country requires the performance of "live cell analysis", which has no demonstrated validity in medicine.

The FDA does not mandate that "only a drug can cure you of any illness". The FDA says that promoters of products that claim to treat disease (whether herbs, supplements or pharmaceuticals) have to show that their products actually are effective. The FDA, like other government agencies, is funded by the taxpayers (not by drug companies).

Antoine Bechamp represents "a lost chapter in the history of biology" because his theories (including the claim that germs don't cause disease) were discredited more than a century ago.

I don't know what all this stuff has to do with enlarged adenoids. I have not said that "surgery is the preferred way of dealing with enlarged adenoids". If the enlargement is causing repeated infections and physicians think there is a risk of other problems (such as hearing loss), then strong consideration needs to be given to surgical removal, as no herbal, homeopathic or nutritional remedies have been shown to be effective in shrinking adenoids.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Let me respond.
My information about Germany using 'live blood analysis - a DIAD EcoMicroscopy procedure using a darkfield microscope to see the ecological factors for a patients distress in their blood) comes from a German doctor who happens to be a friend. Where did you get your information because maybe you know more about German medical procedures and practices than my friend or then again maybe my friend doesn't know about procedures in his own country! The question is why are you, based on who you quoted, do you accept the opinion of a delisted doctor like Stephen Barrett (founder and maintainer of quackwatch) who has nothing better to do than to go around trying discredit non-allopathic doctors?
As for your statement about the FDA, you need to do a little research since in 1992, congress authorized the FDA to collect funds directly from the drug manufacturers. Since then the approval process has been structured to favor large drug companies through significant increases in things like user fees for filing applications for medical devices and biologics along with already existing drug related filings. You will also find that the number of things labelled as a disease has significantly increased since then. Effectively pulling any sort of treatment for any issue related to health, whether physical or psychological, under the FDA control. Since only patented devices or treatments can afford to pay the user fees and trial costs to pass for FDA approval, effectively they have mandated that only drugs can cure any illness.

As for Antoine Béchamp, please provide me with a link to any site or book or anything that shows that his work and not Pasteur has been discredited?

As for you final comment, I have presented a model of health along with sufficient references so that anyone willing to do a bit of research show that except in cases of accidents or extreme circumstances allows for an individual to maintain or recover their health including in the case of a child like my own having enlarged adenoids while avoiding surgery that would traumatise the child and compromise the immune system. You stated nothing except recommending that the father who started this forum question traumatise his daughter with surgery! There are many herbal, homeopathic or nutritional remedies that are based on the model that I presented that allows for one to eliminate enlarged adenoids without surgery. Finally, an important part of this model its link with allergies as foods, cosmetics and environment that one has an allergic reaction to (such as in the case of my daughter milk, wheat, gluten, eggs) causes an increase in the IgG antibody levels in persons body taxing the immune system. In the case of children where the adenoids and tonsils are the first line of defence against airborne germs, the immune system works even harder leading to enlarged adenoids in the case of my daughter. Eliminating these foods from one's diet along with the herbal, homeopathic or nutritional remedy to treat the infection in the adenoids resolved the problem. In any herbal remedy book one aspect treating adenoids is eliminating what is called mucus forming foods (i.e. dairy products, meats, eggs, sugar and wheat). This is consistent with the facts of my daughter's situation and the treatment. Improve your health and immune system through elimination of allergic foods and boosting the pH, and treat the infection in the adenoids with one of another natural remedies.

Here is a link that might be useful: Learn about the FDA


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by saying that the FDA is "funded by the major drug companies". Just about any government agency you can name collects administrative fees for filing applications, but that is likely a drop in the bucket when it comes to funding the activities of a large government agency that depends on Congressional appropriations.

Re Bechamp, all you have to do is consult any textbook of microbiology used in university or medical school classes, to know that the germ theory of disease (which Bechamp rejected) remains the foundation of clinical microbiology. (I don't see any containers of "Bechampized" milk on the supermarket shelves :)

What exactly do you mean by the statement that Dr. Barrett, the founder of Quackwatch is a "delisted doctor"? What list are you referring to?

As to your other claims, I'd be interested to see your evidence that "live blood cell analysis" is mandatory in Germany (such as an online reference to health regulations), or any clinical studies showing that dietary changes or attempts to change body pH are useful in treating enlarged adenoids.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

One correction: I find that user fees paid to the FDA by those seeking approval for new products have become
an important source
of funding for the agency, approaching the amounts received through Congressional appropriations.

An interesting review on user fees and their non-effect on the speed of drug approval.

Of course, the user fee requirements affect everyone submitting applications to the FDA for drug approval - except for the multibillion dollar supplement industry, which skates around requirements by pretending that its products are not really drugs, and so avoids paying fees.

Back to adenoids, hopefully.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

eric Oh,
Years ago, they also used to remove the Thymus glands from infants because MD's saw that they were much larger in infants then in adults. Thank God they finally figured it out that the Thymus glands were larger because they were busy manufacturing T-cells for the infant's developing immune system. Appendix removal was also routine with any abdominal surgery. This is virtually non-existent these days because it is understood the Appendix is made of lymphoid tissue. So are the Tonsils and the Adenoids. Why would surgery be a first option? Cut it out has been the motto for years, but luckily that is starting to change a bit. Non-invasive treatment first is the way to go in my book, and herbs and supplements are a good start, as long as you understand that there are risks, albeit very small risks. Supplements are in fact not considered drugs, because the FDA and the Drug manufacturers keep it that way. It is illegal, for those who don't know this, for supplements to claim they treat any disease. This was championed by Big Pharm as an attempt to try to corner the market on "disease". Let's be honest here. I am in the health care business, and Big Pharm is ALL about money. They will do what they can to prevent anybody from affecting their bottom line. Here is an excellent book that presents various examples of how big Pharm and the FDA cooperate with one another - "Overdosed America - the broken promise of American Medicine", by John Abramson, MD. What supplements do not have is a long list of deaths and side affects as do these laboratory made pharmaceuticals that address only symptoms, not causes. Are supplements 100% safe? No. Do they have numerous and potentially severe and life threatening side affects like Drugs? For the most part, no. Drug companies cannot patent naturally occurring substances such as vitamin C, or Vitamin E. They can manufacture synthetic vitamins that are potentially toxic to the body, such as synthetic Vitamin E (D-L Alpha Tocopherol - the L stands for Laboratory) found in a lot of lower quality supplements. The bottom line is, that any substance can have a side effect on the body. Take too much Vitamin C, and you get diarrhea, for example. Vitamins have enjoyed a long and very safe trial since their inception. Big Pharm would LOVE to be able to regulate all supplements, and force consumers who want to take supplements to obtain weak supplements, and by prescription only. If the Codex rules are harmonized by Congress with the rest of the WTO (World Trade Organization)countries, supplementation in this country will be changed forever. Then, the Hundreds of Billions drug industry will have even more power, and enjoy even bigger profits. Herbs and Supplements are effective. They are safe. They have enjoyed much lower rates of complications than drugs, which try to eliminate a symptom, yet provide you with another or many other symptoms in return - just watch these ridiculous drug commercials that show how just taking their drug can help with problem A, but may cause Problems B,C,D,E,F, and G as a result. health doesn't come in the form of a manufactured chemical. I personally prefer organic food grade vitamins and organic, minimally processed herbs. Talking to an herbalist, a Homeopathic Doctor, or doing honest research on line can go a long way in preventing surgical procedures that may be unnecessary, such as the removal of Immune tissues such as adenoids or tonsils. The problem is, a lot of people don't give these herbs or supplements enough time to work, or they don't follow through with them. Cutting out something can be so much quicker, easier, and convenient for all involved. Such is our world in the 21st Century....


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

You say that herbs and supplements are effective and safe. Even if this was an accurate generalization, none have been shown effective and safe for treating this child's enlarged adenoids, which are causing repeated infections and threatening potential hearing loss.

As to your other claims, there are too many to go into without totally hijacking this discussion, but this deserves a response:

"Supplements are in fact not considered drugs, because the FDA and the Drug manufacturers keep it that way."

Supplements are not considered drugs (and as a result are largely unregulated) but this is not a result of action by the FDA and pharmaceutical companies. The reason is that politically connected supplement marketers aided by key lawmakers such as Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) and Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) have succeeded in passing legislation that allows the multibillion dollar supplement industry to avoid regulation, putting consumers at risk.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Luckily the Supplement industry has at least two politicians in their corner, and a Democrat and a Republican at that(according to you). Supplements are not considered drugs for various reasons, but the main ones revolve around only DRUGS being able to treat, cure, or prevent a disease - Since you seem so against supplementation, you may not have read what is on the side of every supplement sold in the U.S. In order to be a drug, you must go through the timely (and yes, expensive) process set up by the Government and the FDA. No wonder Big Pharm is against naturally existing vitamins and minerals being taken for prevention and yes, even health problems. Should everybody throw out weight-bearing exercise and Calcium and Magnesium supplements to sprint towards Actonel for osteoporosis? Actonel (according to studies) has been shown only to increase the cortical bone mass, but does not increase the mass of the central spongy matrix, which is very responsible for bone strength. Yet, this has become probably the best selling medication for osteoporosis. Outcomes of studies are only as good as who funds them. Talk about your political connections. The Drug industry likely has the market cornered on that. Once again, I refer you to the Overdosed book by John Abramson, MD. No, supplementations are not nearly as regulated as pharmaceuticals, but I have a suspicion if they were causing even 1/100th of the side effects, that would change in a hurry. Regardless, swollen adenoids can effectively be treated by methods other than removal, and maybe taking more steps to find out why adenoids swell in children would actually be a good start. Excising these tissues because the causitive reasons are unkown is outdated. Today's children are exposed to more chemicals in food, water, air, and their environment in general than ever before. Is it any wonder their bodies are more sensitized? Prevention and practicing good hygiene is key in today's world.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"...swollen adenoids can effectively be treated by methods other than removal"

How?


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

eric oh,
Anything that controls inflammation, such as Omega-3 fatty acids, Curcumin, and Boswellia, to name a few, can help. I would recommend those, as well as anything that can have an adaptogenic effect on the body, such as Ashwaghanda, an ayurvedic herb with thousands of years of safe and effective use. Anecdotal studies have shown this. Now, I don't of any specific scientific studies that show that Ice reduces swelling from a swollen ankle, but I am sure most people who have tried ice have had decent results. Remember, scientific studies require lots of funding to be undertaken.
There are many studies to be found on the effectiveness of the above supplements if you dig enough. They won't be the first on the list in JAMA, or NEJM. I have effectively treated ear infections in my child with Fish oils, garlic oil in the ear (antibacterial properties), and Chiropractic adjustments. I have no scientific study showing it worked, only the results from a firsthand perspective.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"There are many studies to be found on the effectiveness of the above supplements if you dig enough"

Let us know if you find one that demonstrates that any of them shrink enlarged adenoids. Most parents would not want to put their children at risk of repeated infections and hearing loss on the basis of unreliable testimonials.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

eric oh,
which unreliable testimonials are the ones you are referring to? Is anecdotal evidence not "scientific" enough for you? Does it take both a success story using alternative methods AND a scientific study to convince you? I am not trying to convince you or anybody that natural supplements can help with swollen adenoids. I am simply saying there are alternatives to cutting out lymphoid tissues, and alternatives to pharmaceuticals with several side effects. I believe in a step by step approach that uses the most non-invasive methods first, and that may include using supplements and herbs. If a parent is putting their child at risk for repeated infections and hearing loss (hearing loss is seen in extreme cases, and very low percentage of the cases at that) then they are either unknowingly feeding their child foods that are causing inflammation, unknowingly exposing their child to repeated environmental allergens, or the child is likely exposed to repeated allergens elsewhere, to name a few. Adenoids don't just swell up in children as a natural process of being a child. It is part of the immune system overreacting to a foreign substance. It is your choice to have a Doctor cut out body parts to relieve symptoms. It is my choice to use other methods. I am simply advocating becoming familiar with non-surgical and non-pharmaceutical methods, whether that be food, supplements, herbs, etc. Parents have to make their own choices, but at least make informed ones before cutting out body parts or agreeing to put your child on a drug because it is the easy thing to do. One good study on inflammation, in general, is written by Dr. Mark Percival, and yes, he even has references! Take a Look up the following web address, and you can get an idea of inflammation and its role in the human body:

http://www.acudoc.com/Pain and Inflammation.PDF

Does it state that it specifically reduces adenoids? NO. Inflammation is part of the same process, wherever it may take place in the body. Anybody interested in more can find it all online. Once again, you have to know where to dig.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

In addition to my above post, eric oh, I have a question with regards to your first response on swollen adenoids -

"So delays in treatment due to ineffective remedies such as homeopathic drugs could lead to hearing loss and problems associated with airway blockage."

what studies show that homeopathic remedies are ineffective?


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"I am not trying to convince you or anybody that natural supplements can help with swollen adenoids."

I thought that finding relief for this condition was the point of this thread.

If you want to debate what constitutes reliable health information and whether supplements should replace mainstream medicine, you're invited to start a thread on that subject.

As to your last question:

More reading for you including literature references.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

The "point" was to have people at least consider and to use alternative therapies if they have an interest in a non-invasive approach first. I am absolutely not against medical intervention if it is necessary. I am also not advocating the replacement of mainstream medicine by supplements. I am ultimately for prevention and I support alternative approaches that are effective, regardless of what quackwatch says. I have seen alternative therapies work firsthand, and will continue to see them work. Anecdotal evidence, eric oh. By the way, who or what makes quackwatch the authority on what health care choices work in this country? The U.S. doesn't even crack the top 15 list of healthiest countries, regardless of our "superior" mainstream health care system, which is the costliest in the world. That is very SAD. Now, in the emergency care department, we are at the top. Furthermore, I am also saying to anyone who has sickness, or sick children, to not throw alternative options out the window just because you say you have found a MD or another medically or pharmaceutically-oriented person or entity who thinks surgery or pharmaceuticals are the end-all be-all. I cannot convince anybody to do anything they don't want to. Like I said before, I am an advocate of INFORMED decisions, based on both alternative and mainstream choices that are available.

Secondly, I had asked for studies (I meant non-biased studies) on homeopathy, not opinions and/or medically funded "studies" from anti-alternative, quackwatch-like entities. I could easily just have asked the Republicans how they feel about the effectiveness of the Democrats, and I would get the same sort of answer. I am very curious as to what your medical-oriented opinion is of accupuncture, which outdates our "modern medicine" by several thousands of years. It also is very effective, and has little or no side effects. There is something to be said about staying power.....

FYI - article on US ranking among healthiest nations:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/25/health/main504582.shtml


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"Like I said before, I am an advocate of INFORMED decisions"

We agree. Which is why I earlier suggested that the original poster seek out a second opinion regarding surgery, and also mentioned lifestyle changes (avoiding smoking and daycare settings which can predispose to recurrent infections) which might be helpful.

Acupuncture, homeopathy and the general state of health in America are all interesting topics and worth separate discussions (if related to herbalism, which is what the forum is all about). But the mother who started this discussion wanted specific advice on how to deal with her child's problem, so it'd be best if we stuck with what's been shown to be effective in such cases.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

The thing is Eric, I am not sure if you are seeing this. I think that Jsrdc tried to explain it to you, but maybe he was a little subtle ie the Republican/Democrat allusion. People that come here to this forum have already made up their minds. They've made a decision to use Alternative medicine. Now, granted, I myself am a moderate, thinking that some alternative medicines are from La la land, but still, they came here with alternative medicine in mind. I understand with Lucy... she's very young, but you appear to be older... so here's a lecture on human nature. You are having no more affect in here than I would if I went to an AMA convention and preached mullein oil for earaches. I'd get laughed out of the building. Instead, what you are doing here is making people upset, if they wanted a western medicine opinion, they'd go to webmd.com or something. What Lucy appears to be doing is totally counterintuitive, she is making people DIG IN THEIR HEELS and feel totally glad they are anti-western medicine. At first I had the mistaken opinion that you were a moderate like myself... but now, you've made it clear that you are some crusader for Western medicine. That's like when Christians force their religion on non believers.... they hardly want to hear it. You could consider yourself like a Christian, and those of us in here of another religion... we like OUR religion and probably are not going to change, like you will not convert to our religion... so, knowing that, why do you continue? Just to upset people and drive them to a forum where you can't go? In fact, I have seen some cases where you may have driven them even farther into what I consider La-la land... so I'd reconsider your direction in this forum, that is, if your purpose is not just to irritate people.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Ha ha! Well my dear, chances are I am a lot older than you and probably most of the people on this forum, which is why my decades of working in big university teaching hospitals in large cities won't allow me to sit and watch people (most likely in their 20's or 30's) ask strangers what their children should take when they are sick. That has been about my only problem with this place, and if you or any other adult wants to take something completely on faith (or even ringing endorsements) that's entirely up to you. Just don't do it to children!


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Once again, eric oh, what has shown to be effective doesn't mean it is only found in a medical journal. An informed decisions involves gathering information from ALL perspectives, not just medical ones, and then making the decision based on what the Parent feels is the right decision. I am simply trying to shed a little light on what you are denouncing based on your Medical beliefs.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

heathen, I consider myself a moderate, although we define the terms differently.

To me, a moderate is someone who views herbal medicine as complementary to mainstream medicine. I'm not going to make assumptions as to what everyone who visits this forum wants, but there are evidently a lot of people who are interested in exploring herbs to treat certain problems, but are not antagonistic in principle to mainstream medicine. They just want to find something that works and is relatively safe and inexpensive.

There are a number of people who have regularly contributed to this forum, among them daisyduckworth, Judy_Ont, lazygardens and me who know enough about herbs to respect them for their good (and occasionally bad) properties, and when to recommend that a health professional be consulted. We've talked about valid herbal options (like feverfew for migraine) and advised against dangerous and ineffective ones (such as bloodroot salve for burning off skin tumors).
There's a lot of hype in the marketing of supplements and dealers who come in here disguised as regular posters to urge us to buy one thing or another. Being skeptical about outlandish claims is what protects our health and finances (the same goes for mainstream medical treatments).

It doesn't help to respond to questions about a remedy with personal attacks, or to suggest that certain posters aren't welcome because they don't enthusiastically embrace every product or personal testimonial that appears in this forum. If you want an environment where no one is ever allowed to question a claim, there are forums outside of GardenWeb that are tailored to this philosophy. You might be happier at one of these.

I don't mind exchanging views with people who think differently. What's not appreciated by many of us are personal attacks or general diatribes against health care providers, which distract us from trying to help people with a particular problem - in this case, swollen adenoids.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Boy Eric, you sure are stubborn! As far as personal attacks? I wasn't attacking, I was informing you of my opinion of the general feeling in here. I just don't see any results in what you do except to drive people away. If people actually posted, "Please, I am asking about herbs, but heavens! cite instances where Western medicines say they don't work" THEN I'd think that your services would be truly appreciated. The problem is, that most people who come here don't trust western science, so you continuing to push it really turns SOME people off. As far as I know, the topic of this forum is HERBALISM, not Whatever Herb that Eric Feels Actually Works". I am HIGHLY aware that herbs are medicine, and have seen what interactions can do. BUT I cannot find ONE thread where the original poster wasn't almost upset with your input.... doesn't that mean anything to you? Luckily, there are forums for people to resort to where people who cause unhappiness can be sent on their merry way. And apparently, that's where people have to go to get away from people who "just want to help" against all odds! It's like the people in organic forums who go there to just HELP people realize that inorganic farming is the best way to go. The funny thing is, I think you are making people more firmly feel that herbs are better than Western science! So, I guess in that way, you are doing people a favor here.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

There have been many threads where I and the other individuals I mentioned have helped guide posters towards useful and safe remedies, and have been thanked for it.

I'm sorry you personally see the forum as a vehicle for rejecting mainstream medicine rather than viewing herbalism and mainstream medicine as complementary. I regret that you prefer to attack others rather than discuss ideas. If you feel compelled to continue this harangue, please take it to e-mail. Or better yet, start a thread on what you think should be allowed in the forum. I will not respond further to personal attacks here, as it's unfair to the original poster and to anyone who comes into this thread looking for information about adenoids.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Heathen1, you are absolutely right.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I have to agree with artulip as well. Eric oh, being that this is gardenweb.com, it would behoove you or anybody else to stick with the context of the website. Maybe you have it confused with GardenMDweb.com. People on these sites have alternative mindsets, and to continually barrage people with medical data in the form of scientific studies when they have questions about alternatives may just be out of place. People are not asking if Dr. Bob's snake oil is effective. They are asking about effective alternatives, and maybe these people aren't quite as concerned about a scientific study that you so desperately need. With thousands of years of effective and safe use, herbs and even supplements can help people who don't want to resort to immediate surgery. Do you think MD's would excise adenoids if they really knew the cause of the enlargement? I would hope they wouldn't. Bodies are not designed with extra or unnecessary parts in my opinion. As useless as you may feel adenoids are, they have their place and function in the body, and cutting them out to stop symptoms isn't the best option in my opinion, unless absolutely needed.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I'm pretty sure you guys have lost the mom anyway. Hearing loss from frequent ear infections is not rare. It is common. Happens all the time. most likely the child has constant allergies causing drainage to accumulate in the adenoids. i would rather live without my adenoids then my hearing.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Thanks, amazon for getting the discussion back on track and focusing on what's most important - a child's health.

It's one thing for adults to try out untested and discredited remedies, another matter to experiment on one's children.

I don't know if the original poster is still following this thread - but we tend to forget that a lot of people read along without actively participating in the discussion (many times a Google search on a health topic will bring up current or old threads from this forum). These folks are not necessarily hostile to science or committed to some dogmatic health ideology, but want to hear what the issues are and what safe and effective herbal remedies are worth trying.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

JSRDC - Do you really think MD's remove adenoids WITHOUT knowing 100% why they're enlarged? Incredible! I wonder if at least part of the answer to your distorted thinking doesn't lie in the fact that you're equating the random trial and error method of assessing herbal meds with what traditional medicine does - and therefore imagine that MD's just sort of stumble on their knowledge incidentally, and are as subject to wrongness as (some) herbalists? Have you ever read up to date medical journals and seen the depths and spread of research worldwide into even the most minute of elements existing in any tiny part of either the body, or some chemical, or therapy of any kind? Vast bodies of literature build on previously researched ones, looking at every conceivable atom of information obtained in the most up-to-date laboratories and through thousands of conferences and seminars held all over the world each year, with enormous input from every discipline and doctor around, and when a consensus on a particular issue is reached at some point, it's STILL not just accepted for posterity, but continuously 'upgraded' as new information comes along. There's an enormous number of specialists (MD's, lab techs, lab results, PhD's, students, nurses, etc.) of every kind inputting their contribution to every little issue over years, and testing is done in stringently monitored steps under government surveillance at all stages to be sure no harm is done along the way. However, people are not machines, and therefore it happens that some time, somewhere, something can go wrong even after all the above has taken place, but the statistical rarity of those wrongs is hugely outnumbered by the 'rights', and everyone learns (and we benefit) by those exacting steps having been followed. I'm all for looking into alternative ways of helping people (why not?), but I'm also afraid of the word-of-mouth information which they so often depend on (alone) that are used to promote them to every-one (who in some tiny way is different from every-one else), but which herbal medicine so rarely really researches, preferring to take Aunt Mabel's husband's uncle's word that something he tried once worked ... and therefore it must be good for everyone else's ailments, regardless of who they are or what's really wrong with them, or even the fact that the uncle's ailment may well have resolved in spite of the remedy, as opposed to because of it. Until alternatives are looked at in the same precise and fastidiously documented way traditional medicines are, I'm going to keep trying to stop children from being potential victims.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Yes, Lucy, I do believe adenoids are removed by Doctors in many children who have repeated ear infections, nasal probelms, etc., without knowing 100% why the adenoids are enlarged. I am not against excising them when it is necessary, as I said before. I do believe that a lot of Doctors are more concerned with reducing symptoms. If that wasn't the case, more Doctors would be focusing on prevention, diet, and lifestyle in their practices rather than promoting drugs and surgery. I am glad you have so much faith in the pharmaceutical arena. A lot of people do not. Yes, I have read up to date medical journals, even thoug it is not my favorite subject. It is hard for me to believe anything these journals purport when studies found in such journals are funded by the very entity or people who stand to benefit from these studies. In other words, there is a lot of bias in these journals. It is amazing that some people take these journals to be gospel. It is ALL THEORY. It is still not fully understood as to exactly why water can enter the cells of the body when cholesterol and lipids make up a part of the hydrophobic cell membrane - See Guyton's textbook of Physiology. Also, I would encourage reading John Abramson's(a Medical Doctor) "Overdosed America", and Marcia Angell's book "the truth about the drug companies". In case you don't know who Marcia Angell is, she was editor in chief of New England Journal of Medicine for nearly two decades, and she has a perfect insider's view of what you are referring to. She happens to have a different belief (based on first hand knowledge) on how the pharmacuetical industries conduct themselves. Read the parts on how the pharmaceutical companies spend more on marketing and administration than they do on R&D, which most people really believe constitutes the majority of their spending (no less what they would prefer people to believe). I tend to believe somebody with her credentials and position. Look, I respect your opinion, I respect eric oh's opinion - we just happen to disagree. I believe in a less invasive approach first, you and eric oh seemingly believe differently. Ok, so can we agree to disagree? Lastly, I do not believe people are so dependent on word of mouth information via the internet. I believe people take this information as a chance to further explore what they see on this forum. I have never, nor will I ever recommend anyone to not seek medical care for a condition. Once again, I am not against medicine, but I am for alternatives, and a non-invasive approach first. It appears we disagree on this, and that is fine. I hope the OP was spurred to at least look at alternatives, or seek a second and third opinion if need be. Children have also had their hearing affected negatively with placing tubes in the ears via permanent scarring due to it. I also have children, and would not want to jeaopardize their health. My alternative approach has served them well with regards to their health and well being to this point. I have taken them to the pediatrician for well visits and sickness. It has turned out to be a good partnership thus far.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I am a living example that Doctors really know very little. I have HIV... and I have seen with my very own eyes that doctors are shooting in the dark a LOT of the time. Hey, we'll try this... it's worked a couple of times, it might work for you. They have NO IDEA why I am alive, against all odds, and don't have AIDS... not in over 20 some odd years... I am a walking example that Doctors are very trained in the ART of diagnosis and the rest is a crap shoot... and it's really sad, but truly, most doctors are just normal guys who's daddy paid their way through medical school. Daddy said that you either have to be a lawyer or a doctor... go hence! You've got to be KIDDING if you think that a doctor knows everything..... (ever heard of malpractice?) specially one who's not a specialist. We can also talk about the high rate of drug addiction in the medical profession.... But... my whole point is, I guess that Lucy and Eric just intend to spread unhappiness... they can't convert anyone, so they just want to spread unhappiness. Since they won't listen to our pleas, maybe we should just ignore them?


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Heathen, there are large groups of people with HIV (and no AIDS) in the world and doctors have shown (many of) them to have certain genetic patterns which apparently protect them from the full blown disease. It's not necessarily a giant mystery, just an interesting quirk - which is part of why medicine is so fascinating to people who go into it! Some of it is a crap shoot, of course it is, but that's no reason not to go further and try to find the answers - it's every reason to do so! Without it, an awful lot of us wouldn't be alive to have the 'luxury' of arguing here - we'd be too busy pushing up daisies;


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Amadeus... it's been a while. What have you decided to do?
http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/pa/pa_tonsilsu_hhg.htm

It's a shame, and I think this whole thread is evidence of it, that the art of healing has become a business (and education for that matter) - it has turned thinking and caring into something profitable and not entirely wholesome.

Surgery has it's place, I appreciate that modern surgery is much kinder than surgery of yore. I appreciate many modern medical breakthroughs, but I've had harmful drugs prescribed, and I've had a child damaged by doctors' decisions in the past. It's not an easy decision. I'm sorry your little girl is in pain.

I have adenoid problems, but I've opted to not have surgery. If it worsens again at some point, I may reconsider.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Hi, I am sorry to hear about your daughter going through such a hard time. I have a son, he is 2 years old. He has a very bad problem of swollen adenoids and tonsils. The slightest cold, or virus irritates it to the point where he can't sleep all night due to sleep apnea and he looses so much wieght. He keeps turning blue while he is sleeping and then startles awake to catch his breath. I cannot sleep in fear that one of the times, he won;t be able to get his breath back. After repeated visits to the pediatrician, she finally sent me to an ENT specialist. I tried to explain to him how serious his problem is but he seemed to dismiss it saying the child is too young for surgery so he can't so anything??? I changed my speicalist, this one says the only solution is surgery, but since he is too young, he wants to do a sleep study to see how serious the problem is, and then go ahead with the surgery, if his oxygen level is harmful to his brain and heart. He was also given steroids for the swelling by his pediatrician. I started doing some research on the internet. I can't put a 2 year old under anesthesia, it can't be good for him. The thing I don't understand is, why don't the doctors try to find the root of the problem? Why does it always has to be surgery or meds for life, which cause more problems with thier side effects and then more meds for that. When I was doing my research someone recomended this site to me and I just sat their in shock. I did not know how harmful steroids were. I knew they were harmful, but I didn't know they can temporarily stop or slow down a childs rate of growth. They can cause arthiritis and osteoperosis in the long run. I think thats a bigger danger, then trying to find a natural way to treat your child, and I don;t know how a doctor could prescribe that to anyone, let alone a 2 year old?? I have lost all faith in the doctors now. I found my self a very educated person in homepathy, and have started treating my son with homeopathic medicine, which by the way has no side effects. My son has been struggling with his breathing for the past month. I have been giving him the homeopathic medicine for 1 week now. I have seen very good improvement. I am so happy that there is a natural healthy way to treat this. I have a cousin who had real bad tonsil problems and was also told to have them taken out when she was a child. She went through a couple of months of homeopathic treatments and to this day(she is 23 now) she has not had any problems with her tonsils. That is the right way to CURE. Without surgery, with out toxins and harmful antibiotics, which further ruin your immune system. Here is a website which has some info on how harmful some of these common drugs are that are prescribed so easily to everyone. I hope you find it helpful and I hope and pray for your daughter to get well soon. Take care.

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/children.htm

Sarah


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I can see why you were alarmed at what you saw on the site to which you've linked. You'll be reassured to know that the information on that site is inaccurate and/or misleading, as whoever runs it has cherry-picked bits of data to fit preconceived notions about health, without bothering to reveal the whole picture.

As for the supposed dangers of steroids, the "wellness cafe" site exaggerates and distorts them. Take the growth reduction issue, for example. According to the National Institutes of Health re inhaled steroids in children with asthma:

"Wrist x-rays taken at the end of the study suggest that the adult height of these children will be the same as that of the children taking nedocromil or placebo. (A second study in the October 12, 2000 NEJM, which followed children with asthma into adulthood, found that the children with asthma who received long-term treatment with budesonide attained normal adult height.)

From what you're saying, the pediatrician wanted to put your child on a short course of steroids to control breathing problems prior to possible surgery. This could be lifesaving, given the serious apnea and breathing difficulties you've described. The great majority of potentially detrimental effects of steroids are with long-term use, i.e. osteoporosis.

Physicians do understand the basis of swollen adenoids and tonsils. What we don't have is a panacea to prevent the infections that lead to them. Sometimes surgery is the answer to relieve the misery of breathing trouble and recurrent infections.

I hope you will reconsider leaving your child's health in the hands of a homeopathic practitioner, given the extent of your son's problems and the lack of any evidence that homeopathy can shrink adenoids.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Seeing with my own eyes, that people with very serious problems CAN be cured with homepathy is evidence enough for me. And the the exageration you are talking about, how can you say it's exagerated when they have proof of real people and pictures right there. As of the steroids, my son was given those for 5 days, twice daily. His condition got a little better, but was not fixed. A week later, he was worse again and the doctor said he cannot be given a whole course of 5 days of steriods again so soon. I asked her, is there nothing at all she can do, and she said no, just wait for the sleep study and what the ent says. So you are telling me, I just sit back and watch my son's health deteriorate and do nothing, while the doctors just take there time scheduling and doing thier own buiness, waste my time calling nurses and wait for them to call me back so they could tell me to use a humidifier to help him breathe???? And how in the world can you tell people to keep away from homeopaths when you have no proof that it DOESN'T work?? My son is proof that it does work and is working, and if you want, I could give you names and addresses of people who can testify, that it does work and HAS worked for them.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I've already pointed out one gross distortion on the website to which you linked. Other misstatements warn against vaccines, mysterious "toxins" and other false threats while attacking remedies that really have been proven to work in clinical testing.

Steroids were never meant to "fix" your son's condition, but to temporarily help his breathing (the same for the humidifier you mention). Given the breathing problems you describe, close monitoring and eventually surgical removal of his swollen tonsils and adenoids may be recommended. Homeopathic "drugs", which basically amount to expensive water, are not likely to cause side effects, but neither will they do any good.

From one of the latest studies on homeopathy in children:

"CONCLUSION: The evidence from rigorous clinical trials of any type of therapeutic or preventive intervention testing homeopathy for childhood and adolescence ailments is not convincing enough for recommendations in any condition."

It's hard to convince a parent who wants to believe that an alternative and allegedly safer treatment is working, but again - please look beyond testimonials and research this further for your child's sake.

Here is a link that might be useful: The reality behind homeopathy


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I don't have the time or the energy to sit here and argue with you. I did not come here to argue or get involved in this war that is going on here, I just posted so I could be of some help to the original poster because I know how it feels to have a small child going through this. If you are so against this eric, i don't understand why you are even on this forum or site?? To confuse people maybe? Anyways, I didn't ask for your opinion or arguements, I will do what I think is best for my child. He is the world to me, and I will NEVER do anything that will bring harm to him. If the original poster wants to know what I am giving my son to help him avoid surgery, I will be more than happy to help. I hope and pray everyone's children to be happy and healthy, they are the joys of our lives. Take care.

Sarah


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I have a close friend who as a child suffered with swollen tonsils and adenoids, had repeated infections and a choking incident while eating (due to the obstruction), and suffered with all this for well over a year because her mother was set against surgery. Once she had the tonsils and adenoids out the infections lessened dramatically and she could eat and breathe more easily. And that's part of the reason I'm concerned about this issue.

There is no "war" going on here, just discussion of what treatment is best for the child described in the opening post. As to homeopathy, it is not the same thing as herbalism (which is what this forum is all about). Homeopathy does not really involve herbalism at all, since its drugs do not contain active herbal ingredients.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Why is everyone so set against surgery? This isn't the Dark Ages and thousands and thousands of people (often in far more dire straits than a fit young person with enlarged adenoids!) undergo extensive and complex procedures every day, all day, all over the world and are vastly improved by it. Of course there are exceptions (just as there are with people taking any kind of medicines), but there's no reason to be afraid of surgery - just think how carefully doctors inform us of any risks beforehand after all (even if cynics think it's to protect themselves against lawsuits!), and I'd sure as heck rather take a 2-3% risk of complications in a hospital full of 'antidotes', than take some harmless-at-best and often very harmful-at-worst unproven, herbal 'alternative'. NOTHING is risk free, nothing at all, if only because every one of us is different to begin with and no one can predict 100% how things will work, but risks are hugely less (and benefits much greater and proven) with traditional medicine today - which does NOT mean alternative meds shouldn't be continued to be explored and investigated. Just don't do it on your kids.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I worked in medicine and will someday go back to medicine. I find it hard to believe that turning blue and choking is less dangerous than surgery.
No Dr.'s have not got every answer and every disease process figured out, if they ever did mother nature would present a new one.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. If you are relying on herbs and your kid is still ill then you are making his/her life miserable. if they herbs help and the child is happy and comfy then stick with it. Just know that many herrbs also have long term side effects, just like prescription meds.


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Parents' forum

I found an interesting online forum in which parents of children with this problem have discussed treatment options and outcomes. Both surgery and homeopathy are discussed.

These are all personal stories/testimonials in one form or another, but make interesting reading as a supplement to the medical websites linked to previously.

Here is a link that might be useful: Berkeley parents' network


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Just wanted to reiterate something - My T&A was done at age 8 over 50 yrs ago (and the procedure had been considered to be 'routine' at that time for years) for recurrent ear infections, and not only have I never had one since, but the whole thing went off like a piece of cake. It was SO great not to be sick all the time!


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Here is my final posting as relates to my daughter's problem with enlarged adenoids that has been treated and now is completely gone. She now sleeps silently and is a bundle of energy with no problems breathing. Following up as to why she showed latent allergies or food intolerances (i.e. meaning IgG - Immunoglobulin G - antibodies not IgE - Immunoglobulin E - antibodies which are the sort that cause the release of chemicals such as histamine that can cause a range of symptoms including acute allergic reactions) to a high number of foods (wheat, gluten, dairy, eggs, tuna, tomatoes), we saw a nutritionist who indicated that my daughter might have a leaky gut. She asked us if my daughter had received antibiotics when she was younger. It turned out that she had received antibiotics the day she was born because of the risk of infection since my wife's water broke two days before she was born. We were given a supplement to take during a month and since completing a month on these supplements my daughter is now sleeping soundly. She also can eat small quantities of the foods (wheat, gluten, dairy, eggs, tuna, tomatoes) she has the highest level of intolerances without it causing a problem. The one day that she ate alot of these foods we noticed that night that she was snoring but only slightly. Note that if we had an operation to remove her adenoids, the source of the problem would have still been there weakening her immune system and transfering responsibility to intercept bacteria coming in through the nose to the lymph nodes in the neck. She would not have improved. During the whole period we have seen allopathic doctors, Ear Nose and Throat specialists, homeopaths and nutritionists. The normal doctors had to be convinced to even let me see an ENT and the ENT recommended doing nothing or operating to take out her adenoids and tonsils if it worsened. They dismissed the idea that it could be related to allergies or food intolerances and even questioned the validity of the food intolerance test although the lab is ISO quality management certified and has the approval of Allergy UK the leading UK charity on allergies for its test. He also presented me with the theory that the adenoids were enlarged because my daughter's organs were growing too fast for her head and neck!!! The homeopath explained that there was something that was weaking her immune system and causing her adenoids to work harder weakening them and making them susceptible to infection, the nutritionist recommended checking her for allergies, the changes in her diet by eliminating processed foods and diagnosed the problem with leaky gut. With any illness, focus on the source of the problem, not the symptoms. Hope the information is helpful to those prepared to listen.

For heathen1, If you permit me to recommend a book to you it is "The Detox Book" by Bruce Fife. It will start you on the path to understand how your body functions which is something I recommend for everyone.

For those interested, know that not all supplements are the same. Synthetic supplements are often combined with fillers such as sugar. Note that these supplements often pass through the body intact. Your body cannot absorb them.
Bioavailable supplements are those derived from natural sources such as fruits, vegetables, herbs, etc. They are easily absorbed into the body because they include a syngistic host of other vitamins and phytochemicals - such as flavonoids - that activate and support the beneficial qualities of the vitamins and minerals. Phytochemicals are "plant chemicals" that have been shown to have antioxidant and other health promoting effects. Many of these phytochemicals have not been identified nor studied. Note that if someone tells you about a study indicating the ineffectiveness of supplements get a copy of the study. In all cases, the researchers conducting the study either used synthetic supplements or isolated the vitamin or mineral from the phytochemicals that render them bioavailable to a human being. These sort of things go on all the time and pass for science because people don't often read the source but develop their opinion based on the summary.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

A few things -

There are many practitioners of various kinds who call themselves "nutritionists" or offer advice on the subject, but either have no training in nutrition, an unrelated degree or a certificate from a mail-order college. Someone who diagnoses a "latent food allergy" and "leaky gut" in a child (purportedly due to antibiotics received as an infant) is promoting pseudoscience and cannot be considered reliable. Food allergies or processed foods have not been shown to be linked to enlarged adenoids.

As to supplements, whether they have value or not depends on whether there is an active ingredient(s) that delivers a health benefit and whether that ingredient is present in the supplement (as the industry is poorly regulated, levels of active ingredients vary widely between products). The presence of inert fillers is not an issue. When dealers say that certain supplements are better because they are "synergistic" or "natural", it's a marketing ploy, typically used to get consumers to purchase more expensive products that are generally no better or even worse than cheaper alternatives.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"The presence of inert fillers is not an issue. When dealers say that certain supplements are better because they are "synergistic" or "natural", it's a marketing ploy, typically used to get consumers to purchase more expensive products that are generally no better or even worse than cheaper alternatives"
Well, I can't agree more with THIS statement! :o) Nowadays, one has to CHECK when a product in the store says 'organic'....is it really?
I am going on the pegylated interferon treatment in a week, it's a study to see if they can raise the cure rate in co-infected people with the Hep C strain of 1a. They are raising the ribaviron dose... so I am SURE that I, the QUEEN of side affects will be interested in detoxing. And I am very well aware of real 'nutrition' and a lot of BS out there. I already subscribe to a small farm for food boxes of veggies that I KNOW are organic... I will probably try much harder to be 'all natural' and 'organic' in order to avoid any possible side affects... I have seen a few from the interferon...a friend had Bell's Palsy and my BF got anemia really badly. I am always trying to be open minded, yet very aware of a lot of BS out there.
I am glad that the adenoid problem is solved. :o) Good for you! Irregardless of whatever snake oil is out there, if it worked, it worked.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Thurstjo,

I am so glad you have had success with your daughter, and following what you felt was the appropriate way for you and your family. What is most important is that your daughter is getting well. I hope your daughter continues to excel.
(If it would have been necessary surgery that helped your daughter, that would have been OK as well).

Eric oh and Lucy are still so full of stamina! That anecdotal evidence just keeps coming back to throw a monkey wrench right into the scientific arena. Could it be that the scientific just hasn't yet caught up to the anecdotal in this case?

Eric oh:

"There are many practitioners of various kinds who call themselves "nutritionists" or offer advice on the subject, but either have no training in nutrition, an unrelated degree or a certificate from a mail-order college. Someone who diagnoses a "latent food allergy" and "leaky gut" in a child (purportedly due to antibiotics received as an infant) is promoting pseudoscience and cannot be considered reliable. Food allergies or processed foods have not been shown to be linked to enlarged adenoids".

Food allergies or processed foods however HAVE been shown to be linked to celiac disease and many other inflammatory conditions the digestive system/intestinal tract. Having said that, the digestive system is considered to be a large percentage of the immune system (just like the adenoids and the tonsils, and any other lymphatic tissue in the body are immune system tissues - is it too far fetched to think that the same inflammation could happen first in the adenoids or tonsils, since whatever potential allergens have to pass by these tissues first before reaching the lungs or the digestive system? - makes some sense to me).

Many of those practitioners you mentioned above, Eric oh, have MD behind their names. Since nutrition still isn't a hot topic in Med school, a lot of MD's leave school with little to no information or tools on how to adress nutritional needs in their patients.

Some MD's do decide to increase their knowledge of the immune system and specialize in gastroenterology or immunology, such as Dr.Ken Fine of Enterolabs. He happens to know very much what he is talking about, and is an MD to boot, eric oh. He is one of the leaders in testing for celiac disease and other sensitivities, and I would recommend his lab to anyone wanting to undergo testing for celiac disease or related conditions - enterolab.com, which is out of Texas.

To clarify - practitioners don't just automatically diagnose their patients with latent food allergy or a leaky gut disorder. They take a good history (hopefully) and they request lab tests from the many labs that are available across the US. The lab test results are then used to verify or possibly request other tests for further information. Besides, these labs don't profit from results that provide identification of allergens. You may have to get tested a second or a third time, but I would bet it is still a lot less expensive than what surgery would cost.

A Doctor may say "eat less sugar", or "exercise more" to their patients as an example of their nutritional and fitness prowess learned in med school, like my father's MD says to him. It has to extend far beyond that. Of course MD's don't believe in diet-related issues that can cause disease or allergies if they don't get the information in the curriculum while training to be an MD. Nutritionists and dietitians do, however, get this information needed to understand how diet can affect our bodies, both positively and negatively.

These are not "pseudoscience issues" - the leaky gut tests and latent food allergy tests that are in mainstream medicine and used by many professionals. It is only in the past few years that celiac disease/gluten sensitivity has been actually understood. Up until recently, an individual who had celiac disease/gluten sensitivity had an average time of diagnosis of ten years. It was not understood by the doctors in the U.S. Yet, in Italy and other European countries, celiac has an accurate diagnosis time of 3-4 weeks. Now, I have gluten sensitivity, and can tell you from personal experience, no surgery or drug will help what I have, and it took close to ten years to finally figure it out. It is a hypersensitivity that starts with ingesting proteins that are antigenic to the small intestine. Inflammation results, and if continual bombardment of gluten in the diet continues, the intestines and your immune system begin to act abnormally. Symptoms and a whole host of diseases can and will follow if steps are not taken to eliminate gluten completely in the diet. IgG (specifically anti-gliadin and tissue transglutaminase)testing is used routinely for this. Matter of fact, Quest Labs(which I believe is nationwide, and is very routinely used in the Northeast)has a delayed-sensitivity test, and also has a test genetically for gluten sensitivity. I am not saying every lab is reliable. Using a highly respected lab with a good longstanding reputation would likely be he best bet.

Lastly, Lucy - "why is everyone against surgery" and your last line in that same thread "Just don't do it on your kids". Thurstjo's thread just explained how she was able to find success without the need for surgery - is that anti-surgery? I have stated in my posts that surgery should be an option, but used when it is necessary. Does that make me against surgery? I would say that your line of "just don't do it on your kids" is just as applicable for surgery as it is, in your opinion, for homeopathy and other treatments you feel are not effective.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

There's lots of stamina out there. :)

Enterolabs' website contains dubious, unsupported claims about the significance of anti-gluten antibodies, which it blames for diabetes and arthritis among other things. There's also a bogus statement about Candida causing Crohn's disease.

They offer expensive test panels for things like antigliadin antibodies to supposedly detect gluten sensitivity. The problem is, these tests may scare parents into expensive followup and diets, but are actually meaningless. From a May 2006 paper in the European Journal of Gastroenterology:

BACKGROUND: We previously investigated the prevalence of asymptomatic celiac disease in 3004 healthy children and 4313 adult blood donors by screening for IgA and IgG class antigliadin antibodies (AGA) and IgA class anti-endomysial antibodies (EmA). In none of the 162 exclusive AGA-positive adults and in only one of the 117 exclusive AGA-positive children could celiac disease be diagnosed....Sixty-nine adults and 47 children returned for follow-up. In 26 (37.7%) cases of the 69 adults formerly tested AGA-positive, AGA were still detectable after an average period of 3.7 years. In 21 (44.7%) cases of 47 formerly AGA-positive children, AGA were still detectable after an average period of 4.3 years...There were no significant abnormalities in the laboratory results or any clinical signs of enteropathy. The appearance of AGA has to be interpreted as a non-specific immunomodulation phenomenon, confirming the low specificity of AGA as a serologic marker for celiac disease.

In other words, a positive result in a test like the one provided by Enterolabs is meaningless in itself.

The claims made about gluten sensitivity appear to be just another attempt to link one cause to a huge variety of illnesses. Other believers cite Candida, "parasites", "leaky gut", unnamed toxins etc. It's just not that simple.

Whenever you see the claim that "nutrition isn't taught in med school", what it really means is "physicians don't believe the half-baked nutrition ideas I'm promoting/selling".

You're always going to find people who believe that anecdotes are trustworthy, and that if they do X and Y happens, X must have caused Y. Other reasons for Y are ignored or dismissed.

Meantime there's no sense in chasing after "leaky gut" and other purported causes of swollen adenoids. As pointed out previously, some cases don't need surgery and these may abate eventually. Serious problems need professional attention, not useless supplements and bogus treatments.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Here is the link to a study commissioned by Allergy UK, the leading medical charity for people with allergies, food intolerance and chemical sensitivity, carried out with 5286 subjects reporting a wide range of chronic medical conditions, who had taken a food-specific IgG enzyme-linked immunosorbant assay (ELISA) blood test.

Questionnaires, issued three months after the results, were analysed to investigate the effect of eliminating the foods identified by the test. To check for response bias, a separate group of patients who had not responded were interviewed by telephone. The analysis and reporting of the data was carried out at the University of York.

75.8% of patients who rigorously followed the diet had a noticeable improvement in their condition. 68.2% of patients who benefited from following then recommendations felt the benefit within three weeks. Those who reported more than one condition were more likely to report noticeable improvement. 81.5% of those that dieted rigorously and reported three or more co-morbidities showed noticeable improvement in their condition. For those who dieted rigorously and reported high benefit, 92.3% noticed a return of symptoms on reintroduction of the offending foods.
http://www.yorktest.com/downloads/Testing_Times_Report.pdf

Here is another one:
A total of 150 outpatients with IBS were randomised to receive, for three months, either a diet excluding all foods to which they had raised IgG antibodies (enzyme linked immunosorbant assay test) or a sham diet excluding the same number of foods but not those to which they had antibodies.

After 12 weeks, the true diet resulted in a 10% greater reduction in symptom score than the sham diet (mean difference 39 (95% confidence intervals (CI) 5–72); p = 0.024) with this value increasing to 26% in fully compliant patients (difference 98 (95% CI 52–144); p,0.001). Global rating also significantly improved in the true diet group as a whole (p = 0.048, NNT= 9) and even more in compliant patients (p = 0.006, NNT= 2.5). All other outcomes showed trends favouring the true diet. Relaxing the diet led to a
24% greater deterioration in symptoms in those on the true diet (difference 52 (95% CI 18–88); p = 0.003).
Conclusion: Food elimination based on IgG antibodies may be effective in reducing IBS symptoms and is worthy of further biomedical research.
http://www.yorktest.com/downloads/Gut paper.pdf


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Neither of those food testing reports has anything to do with adenoids, so they're not applicable to the situation of the mother who started this discussion.

Both of the reports you cite are based on patients' self-perceptions of how they felt after going on certain diets. In the first one (apparently unpublished, not surprisingly) people with unidentified "chronic conditions" supposedly noticed improvement after eliminating certain foods from their diet. The authors themselves note that this was not a randomized, controlled trial, so not much can be concluded. Eliminating different foods to which they didn't have IgG antibodies might have had the same effect, since creating an expectation that a diet change will help you could well make someone think they're better over a short-term.

The other study (of irritable bowel syndrome) has a similar problem - no reproduceable clinical measurement of a change in condition, just notoriously inaccurate self-reports (and patients who changed their diets but didn't eliminate the "offending" foods thought they were feeling somewhat better too).

It's no wonder that food testing labs see these claims as a bonanza for their business - but until physicians see a measurable, reproduceable change in patient condition after dietary changes based on these tests, all the hype will be just that - hype without substance.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Eric oh,

Common sense dictates how the adenoid connection could be related to the ingestion of certain foods followed by an inflammatory or histamine reaction - refer back to my last thread.

Enterolab isn't claiming a celiac disease diganosis based solely on Anti-gliadin antibody testing. They also look at fecal fat absorption, fecal transglutaminase, and to pinpoint even further, they test genetically to find out if the patient has the genes that predispose that individual to celiac disease - you may have missed that part on the website?

Enterolab also goes the extra step in understanding that individual tests can result in a false positive, and they also are of the understanding that the immune system and digestive system can be very dynamic - testing during a specific time of day can produce different results. You cited a SINGLE study that explains very little. The study doesn't even say how it is that THEY confirm celiac disease. In addition, a lot of "asymptomatic" people develop symptoms of celiac decades later or even longer. Asymptomatic doesn't equal health - it only means no noticeable symptoms. Celiac disease isn't like a flu or cold. Individuals are sensitized every time gluten is ingested, and with gluten being in just about everything imaginable, it is no wonder people can be shown to be have anti-gliadin antibodies years later. You are well out of your element in this discussion, eric oh. I for one haven't heard of a single Doctor to this point who disputes that Celiac disease exists. It is an auto-immune disorder that can lead to malnutrition, which can in turn lead to a whole list of other conditions. That is why other systems can be affected by the condition progressing over time. It has been understood and tested in Europe for decades, and is thankfully becoming more understood in the United states. What next, eric oh - auto-immune disorders are phantom disorders?

"Whenever you see the claim that "nutrition isn't taught in med school", what it really means is "physicians don't believe the half-baked nutrition ideas I'm promoting/selling".

This is a cop-out statement. The majority of Doctors know very little about nutrition - this is well understood. Some MD's decided to specialize in it later on, as I mentioned in my previous thread. Quite a few MD's also have blinders on with regards to what they are not taught in Med school, or what doesn't fit into the medical paradigm. That is the truth of the matter. Click on Dr. Fine's curriculum vitae - his credentials and experience FAR outweigh your opinion of his lab and his credibility.

"They offer expensive test panels for things like antigliadin antibodies to supposedly detect gluten sensitivity. The problem is, these tests may scare parents into expensive followup and diets, but are actually meaningless:.

Once again, I believe you are mistaken. Firstly, what constitutes inexpensive testing? Secondly, How do these tests "scare" patients into "expensive, follow-up tests? He recommends undergoing testing a year later while on a gluten-free diet to monitor the body's level of sensitivity at that time. How is that considered meaningless"? How is this different from following up on liver enzymes while on lipitor, or following up with an MRI after undergoing cancer therapy to monitor tumor size? In actuality, I have found the diet to not only be less expensive, but much healthier collectively. Quite a few things that contain gluten also contain refined empty carbs, preservatives, artificial colors, fillers, and are just generally unhealthy. Since I have direct experience and improvement with the diet for several years, your opinion is only your opinion, and it holds very little water with me.

I would ask that you please start another thread if you want to futher debate this specific topic.

Lastly, I don't think you didn't read the following essay, listed under the "research and education" link on the Enterolab website - Early Diagnosis Of Gluten Sensitivity: Before the Villi are Gone - it talks specifically about the anti-gliadin antibody test being negative.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Lab tests alone are not sufficient for a diagnosis of celiac disease. A good physical examination and a duodenal (small intestinal) biopsy are part of the workup. From this site:

"Endomysial antibodies and anti-tissue transglutaminase antibodies are highly reliable in diagnosing celiac disease. An individual with abnormally elevated endomysial and anti-tissue transglutaminase antibodies has a greater than 95% chance of having celiac disease. Anti-gliadin antibodies are less reliable and have a high false positive rate. Thus a person with an abnormally elevated anti-gliadin antibody level does not necessarily have celiac disease. Nevertheless, anti-gliadin antibody levels are useful in monitoring the response to treatment because anti-gliadin antibody levels usually begin to fall within several months of successful treatment of celiac disease with a gluten free diet.

I'd steer clear if any lab that makes dubious claims about its testing (including the one that Candida causes Crohn's disease). It's also worthwhile to ask if any of the practitioners (alternative or otherwise) who funnel specimens to these labs for testing have a financial stake in the lab.

It is by no means "well understood" that physicians know very little about nutrition. For example, treating specific diseases including malabsorption syndromes (one of these, celiac disease, has been recognized for a long time in the U.S.) requires knowledge of an appropriate diet. This sort of training begins in medical school and continues during residency training and practice. High fiber, low fat and low salt diets are often recommended in the appropriate setting. Specific disorders linked to a nutritional deficiency (thankfully much less common now in this country) are also studied. What is also well understood is that many wild and wacky claims are made about vitamins, phytochemicals and glyconutrients (to name a few) by people who are ill-trained, and who cover for the lack of research backing their claims by explaining that "well, doctors just don't know about this".

"Common sense" is very shaky ground on which to stand when it comes to a supposed connection between swollen adenoids and "certain foods". There is a large graveyard of scientific ideas that sounded plausible at first, but never panned out when tested. Until there's some concrete evidence, it makes no sense for a parent to invest hundreds or thousands of dollars on inappropriate tests and to place a child on a long-term restrictive diet, when there are proven methods for dealing with enlarged adenoids that cause serious symptoms.

I don't mind if you want to respond here further, but it does seem that this discussion has mostly gotten away from adenoids, so you may want to start another thread on nutrition and herbs.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

A biopsy is the standard way to test for celiac disease, whatever else may or may not be done, and responsible MD's even suggest you NOT try elimination diets prior to doing so as they may interfere with the diagnosis depending on the individual circumstances existing (which variable have you eliminated recently) at the time of the biopsy. Most of the other stuff is just fuzzy thinking and not proven.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Here's another study on the unreliability of stool tests (like the ones Enterolab offers) in diagnosing celiac disease.

"Both stool tests were negative in most cases of coeliac disease and hence are not reliable as screening tests. We have validated these stool tests against the accepted diagnostic "gold standard" for coeliac disease. In many European countries, validation of a diagnostic test in the target population is not required before commercialisation, or diagnostic tests are marketed for years without any evaluation. Many paediatric gastroenterologists share our experience of receiving referrals with a request to do endoscopy on the basis of a positive stool test result. Even worse, children have been started on a gluten-free diet on the basis of positive stool test results alone."

So, some parents are pursuing restrictive diets and invasive procedures for their children on the basis of these unreliable tests. While this study specifically looked at celiac disease, you wonder how many misguided parents are putting their children through similar useless therapy and workup in the case of enlarged adenoids and other problems.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Eric oh,

Once again, you are very much out of your element with regards to Celiac. You are hardly an expert on what constitutes reliable testing and what doesn't. You read some literature and then decide what best fits your line of thinking. First, you jump on Enterolab, saying that anti-gliadin antibody testing is inaccurate (even though Enterolab testing goes far beyond using one test for a diagnosis - you will see my argument below. Once again, they include screening for genetic predisposition of gluten sensitivity - funny, I didn't see any argument by you denouncing that - likely because you haven't been able to find any literature out there that would support your denouncing of genetic testing - much to your chagrin, I am sure). In addition, the study you cited two threads ago states the following:

"Endomysial antibodies and anti-tissue transglutaminase antibodies are highly reliable in diagnosing Celiac disease. An individual with abnormally elevated endomysial and anti-tissue transglutaminase antibodies has a greater than 95% chance of having Celiac disease."

I had several Doctor appointments, "good" physical exams, yet made no progress before I decided to seek out a specialized lab for specific tests. Since Enterolab uses not only anti-gliadin antibody, fecal stool analysis, and genetic screening for gluten sensitivity in addition to the transglutaminase test mentioned above, you are either just being argumentative (which is possible) or you have shot yourself in the foot by not reading the full spectrum of testing Enterolab provides. You bash Enterolab for using "unreliable" tests, then you cite medicineNet.com as having a reliable transglutaminase test(also used by Enterolab) as part of their diagnosing methods - that is a blow to your credibility, Eric oh...

There is also such a thing as being senstitive to gluten, yet not having a "classical" diagnosis of Celiac disease. I am an example of that. It is akin to someone having a mild reaction to a substance, while another person has a full-blown anyphylactic reaction to the same substance. A diagnosis of Celiac does not have to be made in order for someone to have an immune response to gluten. Biopsies are not the end-all be-all indicators of Celiac disease. Celiac Patients have areas of normal intestinal tissue scattered among areas of affected tissue. Some people may never even show villous atrophy of the small intestine. This is not a cut and dry disease by any means - rarely anything is cut and dry with regards to the body. Should these people with negative biopsy resume a glutenous diet, endure the symptoms, and continue doing harm to their bodies because the Doctor says they are fine? Doctors can easily biopsy a normal area of small intestine and claim Celiac doesn't exist when in fact it may. There may be only mild sensitivity that may not be exhibited by way of symptoms, and the presence of a positive biopsy may not be found for many years, or found at all.

I could likely find an objection to just about any study out there with regards to health related issues. Once again, Eric oh, you find a study that parallels your beliefs, post it, and then expect me and/or others to believe it to be gospel.

Eric oh's quote:

"So, some parents are pursuing restrictive diets and invasive procedures for their children on the basis of these unreliable tests. While this study specifically looked at Celiac disease, you wonder how many misguided parents are putting their children through similar useless therapy and workup in the case of enlarged adenoids and other problems".

When you have a child (or an adult for that matter) who is experiencing bloating, loose stools, pain, and a host of other symptoms, you are suggesting to do what? A biopsy? Is that your only reliable Celiac screening? And if that biopsy is negative, then what? Surgery? Steroids? What other reliable tests would you recommend with your knowledge of what are useless tests, other than the aforementioned tissue transglutaminase test? Or better yet, maybe you could learn a thing or two from a friend of mine who's nutritionally sound Doctor recommended eating a lighter diet of pasta after having stomach pain, bloating, and loose stools (not gluten-free pasta) and ended up in the hospital for days after having a severe attack - that prompted the testing that confirmed his celiac, using testing similar to Enterolab, and not a biopsy of the small intestine.

And lastly, Eric oh, with regards to how you feel about the Md's and their nutrition training - I said that Physicians leave school with little to no training, and here is a survey that supports this:

Survey of Nutrition Education in U.S. Medical Schools – An Instructor-Based Analysis - out of 88 Medical Schools surveyed in the U.S., 82 offered 21-30 hours of nutritional education, 37 of the 88 offered 20 hours or less, and one school offered none at all. When you have individuals outside of Medical School who have 30 hours of nutritional training (which is less than half of the hours needed for an associates degree) they are then equal in nutritional training to an MD, according to this survey. That constitutes little nutritional education. Physicians don't believe in the "half-baked" ideas being promoted or sold because likely because they don't know any better due to their lack of education in nutrition.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I've presented multiple examples of tests offered by Enterolab which are considered unreliable according to published studies. The company website appears to encourage patients to order these and other expensive tests on their own (tests for celiac disease are usually ordered by gastroenterologists, who know which ones are accurate and can determine if testing is needed in the first place). Enterolab's website contains unproven statements about the causes of diseases including Crohn's disease and microscopic colitis (which Enterolab labels as an autoimmune disease - the true cause is not known). Based on generally accepted figures, it grossly exaggerates the incidence of sensitivity to gluten and other dietary proteins. Testimonials get a prominent place instead of links to research studies.
In the light of this, saying that some of their testing is valid is hardly a glowing endorsement.

Accurate information on celiac disease and other nutritional disorders is available online (the PubMed searchable database of scientific publications is a good place to start). I've linked to a couple of these studies.

Where exactly does your survey on nutrition education come from? And speaking of education, do professionals in the field of nutrition (i.e. those with graduate degrees from accredited schools) share the opinion that "food allergies and processed foods" are responsible for "many inflammatory conditions" of the digestive tract and for enlarged adenoids? That would be news to the scientific community.



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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Eric oh, you stated the following:

"I've presented multiple examples of tests offered by Enterolab which are considered unreliable according to published studies."

Published studies from where or what journals? You see, we could go round and round with what "your" journals say, what these say, what those say. Regardless of what the journals of your choice may say, there will almost always be contradicting studies or anectodal evidence that says otherwise. A prime example is a "major published study" on how vitamin E (HOPE TOO study, 3/2005) has no effect against cancer or heart disease, yet you turn around and read how this study is being challenged by researchers around the country who claim the study lacks the adequate research - (http://www.news-medical.net/?id=8501) It was challenged because "numerous other studies with much larger patient populations have shown significant cardiovascular benefits from vitamin E supplementation and its role as an effective and safe part of a healthy lifestyle among average consumers". If you were on the no vitamin E bandwagon, I guess that would have knocked any argument you may have had on its backside.

The only test you ultimately have any argument with regards to Enterolab's testing is the anti-gliadin antibody test. All you have done is presented a single study that says it is unreliable. I wonder what the financial interests are of who or what entity that funded that particular study? I am confident I would be able to find many other studies that do find it reliable. You have not presented nor do you have any argument with regards to tissue transglutaminase (we have gone over this already), fecal fat absorption, or the genetic testing they use. If it wasn't for Enterolab, I would not have known what was going on with my digestive system. The Doctors certainly had no answers for me, and it only took 10 years to finally start getting some answers. The first Doctor I went to see for it literally had to ask me what tests I wanted to order for Celiac disease, since he had no idea of what Celiac disease was - this was in 2002.

Enterolab uses valid tests, and produces testimonials from people who have seen actual improvements(not "scientific" enough for you, apparently) while on a strict gluten-free diet. That goes far beyond eliminating oats, wheat, barley and rye. You have to be an avid label reader and weed through all the food and additive descriptions, modified food starches, natural additives, so on and so on to truly be on a gluten free diet. Vinegar can only be ingested if distilled, due to most vinegars being made from grains. Most alcohol also contains gluten, unless distilled, and preferably from non-grain sources.

Once again, you are out of your element with regards to celiac disease.

"Where exactly does your survey on nutrition education come from? And speaking of education, do professionals in the field of nutrition (i.e. those with graduate degrees from accredited schools) share the opinion that "food allergies and processed foods" are responsible for "many inflammatory conditions" of the digestive tract and for enlarged adenoids? That would be news to the scientific community."

That came from the following web address:

www.med-ed-online.org/res00023.htm

What surprises me the most is that in light of how little nutrition these Medical students actually receive, the conclusion of the article states:

"Our findings indicate that nutrition education is an integral part of the curriculum for the majority of US medical schools surveyed. A number of medical schools have chosen to incorporate nutrition education into already established basic science and clinical courses".

It just goes to show you that "integral" is a very subjective term.

"food allergies and processed foods" are responsible for "many inflammatory conditions" of the digestive tract and for enlarged adenoids? That would be news to the scientific community."

Well, start the presses. Even though no specific study I can find (nor care to devote my important time by trying to find)has been done on the diet/adenoid connection, but many articles and much information exists with regards to nutrition and inflammation of the digestive tract with ingestion of processed foods such as refined flours. Type in refined foods and inflammation while on google, and read yourself silly. No study has been done on how lemon juice makes your lips pucker, but I personally don't need a scientific study to validate it for me to believe it - common sense dictates it is so. You won't find nearly as many studies by "journals" on how this connection exists. Since there is no money for pharmaceutical companies or other entities involved with treating digestive disorders (other than by dietary changes), journals will be few and far between. As you said:

"It's also worthwhile to ask if any of the practitioners (alternative or otherwise) who funnel specimens to these labs for testing have a financial stake in the lab."

Lastly, if people have successfully treated their child's adenoid problems with methods other than what mainstream medicine offers or believes, I would like to have that information available to me as a possible option for either myself and my children. Thurstjo was able to find an alternative option that worked, and you are still trying to find a way to downplay the method by which it worked.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Hi, you're absolutely right about one thing (at least!) and that's that medical students are given next to no information about nutrition - it all seems to be leff up to the dieticians to deal with, and that's wrong. Funnily enough, I went to the 'top' dietician once at the largest teaching hospital in a very large city only to have her try and tell me there are no eggs in mayonnaise! However, that does not mean ALL graduate, certified(?) dieticians are ignorant, and seen from 'this' side of the fence, when it comes to medicine, I will not go by testimonials, which are rife with misunderstandings on the part of the patient, and not followed up long term to see results over time. Likewise, you fling off studies in journals as not being of value, and won't devote your time to looking for scientific studies on things, so completely devalue your own arguments - if you can't refute scientific studies properly, how can you expect to be respected for your beliefs? Don't forget that in an overwhelming percentage of all illnesses, patients get better regardless of what's done or not done, otherwise the species wouldn't be around to argue about any of it, so testimonials alone become relatively meaningless. However properly carried out studies with controls, etc., PROVE (as is meant in the strictest mathematical/scientific sense) whether or not treatments are effective, and no testimonials are needed to convince anyone of anything - numbers don't lie. By their physiologic nature, adenoids are a type of tissue that react to stressors in a certain way, and are just not subject to alteration by diet, though if diet incidentally improves overall health, and stressors are removed, then possibly inflammation will recede - of course that does make sense, but if someone suffers recurrent problems with their adenoids that don't respond to general care, they are removed, and the problems don't recur. That can't be said of every organ in the body - obviously you wouldn't be much good if they were all removed routinely, but if something just isn't getting better with the best of known and proven medical care, removal is often the best way to go, as long as the vast majority of patients are known to recover quickly and be able to get on with their lives. Diet should play a large part, maybe a larger part in medicine, and there's a real revolution going on now to further that branch of science, but until you can show me scientifically that a particular course of action by diet alone (and I do mean incorporating any 'natural' type of thing you can take orally) is proven by rigorous testing and follow-up in thousands of cases to be effective and safe for the majority of patients with the same PROVEN diagnosis, in other words that you can track every aspect of that, plus the treatment and follow-up in each case, I'll stick to science for my wellbeing, and not messily thrown together, unproven methods from people with their own agendas (selling concoctions based on testimonials).


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Lucy 5, I was wondering when you were going to chime in =). It seems you and Eric oh have a disagreement on Doctors and their understanding of nutrition - that surprises me that you two disagree on anything. That nutritionist you mentioned was obviously mistaken, but there are many brands of mayonnaise that do not contain eggs. I won't, however, throw all nutritionists into a category and dismiss them all because of a mistake by one.

I don't fling off studies in journals as being of no value, however I am definitely skeptical when Eric oh brings up one or two scientific studies that refute an alternative choice or treatment whose results should be able to speak for themselves. This is Gardenweb.com after all. Does this mean that all alternative treatments work? Absolutely not. There are treatments that work that can't be scientifically validated, but these should not be thrown under the bus because of it. It has only been in the past two or three decades that science was able to find a way to validate the effects of accupuncture. Prior to that, it was considered hocus pocus, placebo, and many other descriptive terms that considered it to be unscientific. There is also no scientific basis for how placebos work, but it doesn't mean they don't work or are ineffective. It means that scientifically they can't be explained, because they don't fit into the scientific model. Just because a report or study may be found in a journal, and considered "scientific", doesn't mean they are absolute by any means. There are so many variables that can't be accounted for in a laboratory. If you choose to believe what each and every "scientific" study says, you will find studies contradicting studies (see my last thread on vitamin E as an example). Eric oh found a way to contradict himself by posting what tests he felt ARE considered valid in diagnosing Celiac, one of several which is used by Enterolab (the dubious, unreliable lab - yeah, that one). That is where I have an issue with some of these scientific studies. Not all studies are false, not all are true, not all studies agree, but which ones to believe and not to believe can depend a lot on your belief system and your background. Eric Oh looks at these posts, and if he disagrees, finds a study or report to back up his position. Anybody can do the same.

Like you stated, "Don't forget that in an overwhelming percentage of all illnesses, patients get better regardless of what's done or not done, otherwise the species wouldn't be around to argue about any of it, so testimonials alone become relatively meaningless". How does this statement fit into the scientific model? Placebo?

We agree on the following statement you made:

"By their physiologic nature, adenoids are a type of tissue that react to stressors in a certain way, and are just not subject to alteration by diet, though if diet incidentally improves overall health, and stressors are removed, then possibly inflammation will recede - of course that does make sense, but if someone suffers recurrent problems with their adenoids that don't respond to general care, they are removed, and the problems don't recur".

Can't diet can be considered a main stressor? Since eating refined foods can cause inflammation in the digestive tract, it stands to be a possibility that adenoids can also be affected by diet, since the adenoids and digestive tract are related by both being considered parts of the immune system. That is where my common sense argument comes into play, whether it can be scientifically validated or not. Since diet is a common variable among everybody in our population, it deserves to be among the most studied variables of disease. The problem is in today's world, suppresion or removal of symptoms is focused upon to a much larger degree than diet is. It is called a "healthcare" system, but in fact it is sickness care that our insurance companies agree to provide.

I have NEVER said surgery was not an option. I did say I felt it should be used when necessary. If it got to the point where my daughter couldn't breathe, was turning blue, and had not responded to any less invasive therapies, her adenoids would be surgically removed.

Lastly, it is obviously your choice to stick to science for your wellbeing. There is nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't make it wrong for people to choose to follow other "alternative" methods that science either doesn't understand, condone, or can't fit into the scientific model. Thurstjo's daughter found an alternative approach worked for her, yet thurstjo isn't saying throw medicine, surgery, or science out of the window. Neither is thurstjo saying that everybody should seek out her method. To qoute Thurstjo:

"They dismissed the idea that it could be related to allergies or food intolerances and even questioned the validity of the food intolerance test although the lab is ISO quality management certified and has the approval of Allergy UK the leading UK charity on allergies for its test. He also presented me with the theory that the adenoids were enlarged because my daughter's organs were growing too fast for her head and neck!!!"

That is a prime example of "scientific" blinders at work. The Doctors just can't fit diet into their scientific model of medicine because they either don't believe it, aren't taught it, or both. I wonder how scientific the theory of "adenoids being enlarged because the daughter's organs were growing too fast for her head and neck".

One last quote by Thurstjo:
"The homeopath explained that there was something that was weakening her immune system and causing her adenoids to work harder, weakening them and making them susceptible to infection. The nutritionist recommended checking her for allergies, the changes in her diet by eliminating processed foods and diagnosed the problem of leaky gut. With any illness, focus on the source of the problem, not the symptoms. Hope the information is helpful to those prepared to listen".

Now I can't speak for anybody else, but this is a common sense approach to anybody who holds diet as a very possible cause of health problems. Along with Thurstjo, I hope Thurstjo's case was helpful to those prepared to listen.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"Eric, you stated the following:
"I've presented multiple examples of tests offered by Enterolab which are considered unreliable according to published studies."

Published studies from where or what journals?"

The British Medical Journal and European Journal of Gastroenterology, both cited in previous posts.

"You see, we could go round and round with what "your" journals say, what these say, what those say."

Well, let's look again at what "your" journal says:

""Our findings indicate that nutrition education is an integral part of the curriculum for the majority of US medical schools surveyed. A number of medical schools have chosen to incorporate nutrition education into already established basic science and clinical courses".

So while you quoted that study to support your proposition that physicians are ignorant about nutrition, the article's conclusions are opposite to what you claimed. (I'm not sure what lucy is getting at with her comment about doctors not knowing about nutrition, as she cites only an argument with a dietician (dieticians are not physicians)).

I think your frustration with scientific research stems from a misunderstanding about how it works. Often treatments or drugs that are initially felt to be promising do not pan out in large-scale or better-conducted studies. Medicine (and science in general) is always being re-evaluated and faulty ideas discarded. Vitamin E research is a good example - a major study has cast substantial doubt that vitamin E supplementation will prevent heart disease, refuting earlier reports (all this work also offers an interesting counterpoint to those who claim that researchers won't test "natural" remedies and supplements since they aren't patentable - vitamin E cannot be patented, but it's been heavily studied).

To quote you again:

"...no specific study I can find (nor care to devote my important time by trying to find)has been done on the diet/adenoid connection..."

I'm glad you recognize the lack of evidence for this claim.

I appreciate the importance of your time, by the way. This is not the first occasion on which I've exchanged long postings with people, who eventually resorted to attempted insults like "You must have lots of time on your hands." It's a good indicator that they've run out of facts to support their position.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Eric oh,
So, are you disputing the nutrition article's data, but agreeing with the conclusion? Just about anybody (apparently Lucy is included here) who reads this article can see that out the several years of Medical school and thousands of hours of study involved, 21-30 hours of nutrition education is a mere drop in the bucket. The article's conclusion is, like I said before, what is most surprising. I already knew that quite a few MD's know very little about nutrition. I simply pointed out the raw data of the report - I never said I agreed with the conclusion. The conclusion is a prime example of what constitutes a belief, among some, that these limited hours of nutrition constitute an "integral" part of the curriculum. I strongly disagree.

In addition, this isn't "my" article. It is a raw data report, outside of anything that needs to be "scientific", that shows how little nutrition schooling MD's actually receive. It is OK to say you are mistaken on this topic, Eric oh. I won't tell anybody.

The BMJ also cites a study how testing for tissue trangslutaminase can be used without the need for a routine biopsy - Results: No cases of coeliac disease were missed by the pre-endoscopy testing algorithm.

Link - http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/334/7596/729

This is a scientific study, out of the BMJ, that supports tissue trangslutaminase testing. Once again, I could find a study that supports my case as easily as a study that supports your case. Is this study less scientific than the ones you have found?

Dr. Fine of Enterolab is a Gastroenterologist, not trained in Europe, but right here in the US. He is one of the limited amount of MD's who DO understand nutrition and its role in disease. You certainly don't have to agree with his testing, but to say his methods are "dubious and unsupported" because of the "testing" he uses is unscientific. The BMJ article mentioned above seems to contradict what you have said by pointing out tissue transglutaminase is, in fact, reliable.

I can't argue the lack of scientific claim for adenoid/diet connection by backing it with scientific studies. Because scientific studies of it may not exist doesn't mean it isn't a good possibility. Studies DO exist, once again, for the inflammatory conditions within the bowels caused by certain dietary factors, such as wheat and other grains. The European Journal of Gastroenterology gives the following description of Celiac disease - "Celiac disease is an inflammatory disorder in which certain peptides from wheat and related grains trigger and maintain an immune reaction in the small intestine". That specifically states wheat causes inflammation, and causes an immune response in the small intestine. This is straight out of the journal you quoted from in your last thread.

Link - http://www.eurojgh.com/pt/re/ejgh/abstract.00042737-200703000-00010.htm

To quote you once again, Eric oh:

"And speaking of education, do professionals in the field of nutrition (i.e. those with graduate degrees from accredited schools) share the opinion that "food allergies and processed foods" are responsible for "many inflammatory conditions" of the digestive tract and for enlarged adenoids? That would be news to the scientific community."

Not only is in not news for professionals in nutrition, it apparently isn't news for the EJG, apparently, that Celiac disease, which is an inflammatory condition associated with an immune response/allergy by the small intestine. It isn't a huge leap in my mind that other immune tissues, such as the adenoids, may be affected by the same substances that affect the the same body tissues in a different location.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I've addressed most of this before, but I'll summarize it for you one more time.

Swollen adenoids have not been connected to food sensitivities, but are a common reaction to infection. If symptoms are severe enough (i.e. interference with breathing), surgical removal can provide dramatic relief. No supplements or restrictive diet regimens have been shown to help children with this problem.

People seeking lab tests to deal with possible digestive diseases might want to be careful dealing with labs that offer useless tests and which make unsubstantiated claims about the causes of disease.

The idea that a large constellation of diseases results from food sensitivities is unsupported by medical knowledge and research.

Lastly, I am not taking issue with the paper you quoted regarding medical school nutrition education (the one finding that nutrition is an integral part of schooling). It'd be interesting to see exactly how course hours are measured. For instance, the biochemistry course offered during core training (and which covers the body's metabolic pathways in great detail) probably includes at least double the 25-30 hours mentioned in the study. And then there's all the didactic and practical education acquired later in med school, residency training and practice as physicians learn the role of nutrition in dealing with many conditions commonly encountered in practice (diabetes, heart disease, obesity, kidney disorders and critical illnesses requiring parenteral nutrition to name just a few).
One area in which physician knowledge may be deficient is nutrition quackery. It's difficult to keep up with all the bogus theories and promotions which flood the Internet, print media, TV and radio. But it's part of the physician's job to advise patients on what is sound science and what isn't.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I said this plain and simple in my last post - I specifically stated "I can't argue the lack of scientific claim for adenoid/diet connection by backing it with scientific studies". Why you are repeating yourself on this I don't know. It still doesn't mean they are NOT linked, and anectdotal evidence (Thurstjo's daughter) shows they very well may be. Because scientific studies of it may not exist, it still doesn't mean it isn't a good possibility. You likely cannot prove they are not linked.

To quote you again, Eric oh:
"People seeking lab tests to deal with possible digestive diseases might want to be careful dealing with labs that offer useless tests and which make unsubstantiated claims about the causes of disease".

You still haven't proven what constitutes "useless". I will mention (again) that I showed you a study and provided a link from the BMJ that showed tranglutaminase testing IS, in fact, validated by a scientific journal you yourself have quoted from. Enterolab uses that test among others. I haven't seen any sort of proof from you that any of the other tests (other than the antigliadin antibody test, which like the Vitamin E study may be inadequate research) may be "useless". Dr. Fine is a board certified Gastroenterologist with 18 years of experience. His expertise, knowledge, and position far outweigh what you believe are unsubstantiated claims and useless testing procedures in my mind. Below is a link to his curriculum vitae for your viewing pleasure:

www.enterolab.com/StaticPages/Frame_Cirrculum.htm

I am glad to hear you are not taking issue with regards to nutrition. That is a pretty cut and dry article. I guess it is your way of saying "ok, so they don't have as much nutrition training as I thought". Don't worry, I still won't tell anybody. And by the way, biochemistry obviously entails so much more than metabolic pathways, and it doesn't necessarily address the differences between good and poor nutrition. I do agree that there are a lot of bogus nutrition claims out there. However, having said that, it doesn't mean that all of the products available are not effective, whether scientifically supported or not. If a MD doesn't know about a specific product, it is a little presumptuous to downplay it simply because it doesn't exist in a scientific journal. I do agree it is part of the MD's job to help the Patient navigate through what is a large sea of nutritional products. You never hear on TV to "ask your doctor about Vitamin C, fish oil, or acidophilus". What you do hear, however, is to "ask your doctor about drug A or drug B". Pharmaceutical companies continually bombard people on TV, internet, media and Radio. I can't watch TV or flip through most magazines without seeing something about a drug and how it will improve my life or my body - and most ads show big smiles or running through meadows, and some even show people doing yoga! No pharmaceutical is 100% safe, and many people end up with health problems due to them. Because they are in scientific journals, do you overlook all the side effects and injuries caused by them?

until next time.....


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Hi again (& again!).. just wanted to comment on what jsrdc said about placebo's... why they work is a mystery, etc. Why they 'work' is because (when used by trad doctors, anyway) there was never much wrong with the patient to begin with, only the patient won't believe it and demands medicine, so the MD's give placebos ("First, do no harm") which allows the patient to feel 'treated' and therefore symptoms go away (as they were never really there to begin with).


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I don't know if a Patient with specific symptoms or conditions would enjoy hearing that there "isn't much wrong with them anyway". Placebo is a real phenomenon that can't be explained scientifically. Theories are out there, but no definitive explanation exists. In one study in the BMJ, the conclusion stated that "placebo effects seem to be malleable and depend on the behaviors embedded in medical rituals"

Link - http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/bmj.38726.603310.55v1

I feel it is a poorly understood mind-body effect that is different for people based on beliefs that are specific to the Patient's country of residence, experiences, and who or what they feel is able to heal them. Just my opinion....


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

ha ha ha Lucy always cracks me up.
okay... I googled "Why Placebos work" and got several articles from mainstream sources. It always pays to do even a little research.

The Christians Science Monitor's article

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0407/p13s01-stss.html

The American Cancer Society's viewpoint...
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_2_1x_How_Placebos_Work.asp

And Science News
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_5_159/ai_71352469


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"The personal belief that a treatment will be effective can actually lead to the perception of improvement. The mind can have a direct effect on the physical sensations we feel in our bodies. People who think they will feel better are more likely to feel better. Suggestions by physicians that the treatment will work may also influence expectations for improvement."
The above is from the article cited by you from the Cancer Society. If you read the last two sentences again, the meaning is almost exactly the same as what I was trying to get across. I should also mention that my ideas are not dreamed up, but are the results of long years working for many doctors, most of whom love to teach as they talk, and their ideas on the subject are/were classical. There's a place for placebos, but don't confuse them with actual treatments formulated to attack specific pathogens.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

To clarify use of placebos (the equivalent of sugar pills) in medical practice:

This is not routine or universally accepted as ethical behavior by physicians. Cite. Placebos may be used in clinical trials of new drugs, where some patients get the drug and others don't - but participants know ahead of time that they may not get the active drug. To be approved for use, new drugs have to be substantially more effective than the placebo.

The placebo effect is not something that can be counted on to extend long-term. This probably explains why people switch frequently between "alternative" therapies, always pursuing the next "big thing" but remaining unsatisfied. You have to consider the seriousness of the underlying condition and the effects of the placebo. In cases of cancer, for instance, the patient might temporarily feel better taking a placebo, even while the underlying disease is spreading.

And placebos are not harmless - there are documented cases of serious side effects including organ failure (part of that mysterious "mind-body connection"). To get back to the subject of this thread - placing a child with enlarged adenoids on a severely restrictive diet when there's no demonstrable benefit is not innocuous. The parents may think an unsatisfying or nutritionally unacceptable diet has to be maintained for life - and the child is the ultimate victim.

Placebos are not the answer to chronic health problems.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

As far as I remember, no one was advocating the use of placebos as cures, but that if someone thinks something is working... it just might be working.
The one thing that I learned as I have gotten older is that 'facts' are not finite... that we really know so little. The one thing that I have seen with a lot of doctors of Western Medicine is that they think that everything they've learned is a FACT. Even though every day, the news is filled with stories of how they were wrong.
Combined with the fact that a lot of medicines came from plants in the wild, although well refined, it seems to me that the smart doctor would be open minded to herbalism. Though I am well aware that Snake Oil salesmen are rampant, closing one's mind to alternative therapies, specially ones that have been used for millenia, seems rather silly. I know that a lot of quite intelligent people have a hard time questioning what they were told as 'facts', those with an open and questioning mind, seem to me to be the actual 'intelligent' doctors.
I'd think with age should come acceptance that one doesn't know everything, yet in the medical profession, age seems to lead to more of a stubbornness, and a thinking that they know everything. I have actually found that some younger docs are more open to alternative therapies. I guess that 'older and wiser' doesn't really apply in the medical field.
Some people feel comfortable shutting off their brains and being told what to do... others find this frightening. I guess that's why some people gravitate towards the doctors who 'know everything' and the others gravitate towards more open minded 'wholistic' healers.
It SEEMS to me that a herbalism forum would be filled with people trying to gravitate towards more 'wholistic' healing, and when people come in and insist that western medicine is the only way, it frightens the more open-minded freethinkers. Obviously, as some have spoken up, this is not so, and I am learning every day.
To me, it's a shame that more doctors are unable to open their minds and maybe learn something that they weren't taught in medical school, but as Lucy always illustrates, it's not common... it's sad.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I should have clarified.. placebos are used in patients who have real diseases (as well as those that don't), but the objective is still the same - to allow the patient to feel they are being treated, and therefore to actually feel better because they relax and believe in the 'medicine'. However, "no one was advocating the use of placebos as cures, but that if someone thinks something is working... it just might be working." The placebos? "Working"? I don't think so - not in the sense you apparently mean it. Inert filler (rather than actual sugar) is not likely to 'work' on a real disease any time soon.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"The one thing that I have seen with a lot of doctors of Western Medicine is that they think that everything they've learned is a FACT. Even though every day, the news is filled with stories of how they were wrong."

It's worth noting that challenges to accepted theories in evidence-based mainstream medicine come from...researchers and practitioners involved in mainstream medicine. It's part of the healthy debate and willingness to accept change that exists in our scientific community.
This affects use of pharmaceuticals such as cox-2 inhibitors (which provide good pain relief but may increase the risk of heart problems) and the use of herbal drugs. For instance, black cohosh has enjoyed some vogue in mainstream medicine (a major OB-GYN organization stated it had value in treating menopausal symptoms). Then a new comprehensive study found it was not useful - which is prompting reappraisal of black cohosh's place in therapy.

This is the sort of open discussion we need. When we demand good evidence for drugs and treatments (as opposed to undocumented claims and testimonials) we have a much better chance of winding up with effective therapy - not perfect, but the best available. This also means a willingness to question ancient traditions in the light of modern experience and research - something many alt med advocates have been unwilling to do.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Heathen 1,

I couldn't agree more with your last post. It was eloquent and to the point. No one was advocating placebos to "cure" anything. I personally believe "cure" is such a misnomer. The only thing that can "cure", if you will, is the triad of the body-mind-spirit (not necessarily in that order). This triad is ultimately responsible for the healing, not the drug, herb, medicine, etc. These agents only facilitate the healing process. Western medicine looks for health to come from outside of the body - what it can give the body from the outside-in to restore health or stop symptoms. Along these same lines is why, in my opinion, placebo has an effect, whether short or long term. The mind obviously plays a part, as sugar or water pills are not effective for health conditions. The belief that Patients are receiving powerful "medicine" kick-starts some process we can't fully understand. As Lucy pointed out, "People who think they will feel better are more likely to feel better". Placebo, as Eric oh stated, may even produce a negative effect on the body, but this is likely a rare occurrence. I am not sure why the ethics of placebo surfaced in your last post, Eric oh. Nobody has questioned ethics with regards to placebo or administering placebos by Physicians.

Eric oh, you stated the following in your last post:

"placing a child with enlarged adenoids on a severely restrictive diet when there's no demonstrable benefit is not innocuous. The parents may think an unsatisfying or nutritionally unacceptable diet has to be maintained for life - and the child is the ultimate victim."

Cutting out refined foods was a subject of debate in earlier posts, specifically with Thurstjo's daughter. Nowhere was it stated that anybody with swollen adenoids absolutely had to go on a "severely restricted diet". I think most people with an intact common sense would agree that processed foods are not healthy. It certainly has been linked by some to the overwhelming increases in diabetic and cardiovascular disease in the West. Stripping foods of their fiber and naturally occurring vitamins and co-factors, then adding dyes, fillers, artificial colors and flavors, and then top it off by sometimes re-adding synthetic and/or low quality vitamins just can't make for a "healthy" food. Now, not all processed foods undergo that process, but a lot of them do. This doesn't even address the possibilities of what effects genetically modified foods have on the body - these are becoming utilized more and more in a lot of the grains and other foods grown in this country. Now this IS a question of ethics that I would like to bring up - there are no current laws that I know of requiring growers of genetically modified foods to list these in the ingredients of the foods that contain them. People are ingesting these engineered foods without their knowledge. We should at least have the right to know whether these engineered ingredients are in the foods we eat by way of mandatory labeling. The effects these engineered foods may have on our bodies by modifying naturally occurring foods is likely not what nature intended. It is a crap shoot as to how a body would react to an engineered protein (that doesn't even exist in nature) being ingested by the body.

Children with food allergies (whether you give food allergies credence or not) ARE recommended to stop eating the foods that show a positive test and believed to be contributing to the allergies and/or sensitivities in their systems. This absolutely doesn't mean they have to follow this elimination diet for life such as a Celiac diet. These potentially allergenic foods can and are recommended to be re-introduced after the system recovers and is working properly to see whether or not the symptoms of allergy return. Celiac disease is a different issue. Since Celiac disease has no medical treatment, eliminating all gluten in the diet is what is recommended by health professionals, dietitians, and nutritionists who have a good understanding of the condition. I still don't consider it a huge leap in thinking that other potentially allergic conditions can be affected positively by eliminating potential dietary causes. Why would a child be considered a victim of a nutritionally unacceptable diet by eliminating foods that may be creating allergic symptoms along with unhealthy refined foods? Would it be better to excise either swollen adenoids, tonsils or intestines and then continue to provide foods that potentially have allergic consequences which may contribute to future health problems?


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Previous posts in this thread have singled out a variety of foods and ingredients (meats, dairy, "inorganic" food, aspartame and now processed foods) as suspect for causing enlarged adenoids, in the absense of any compelling evidence that they're to blame.

Serious food allergies (to peanuts and shellfish, for example) do not just up and vanish on a restrictive diet, and it can be extremely dangerous to re-introduce them "after the system recovers", whatever is meant by that. Knowing this, it's easy to see how a parent who is wrongly convinced that her child is allergic to common, everyday foods might mandate a highly restrictive diet long-term to "protect" the child (even if it's unsatisfying or nutritionally deficient).

At least that's what my common sense tells me. And you can't argue with common sense, right? ;)


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

We are not talking about the anaphylactic-type food allergies, Eric oh - Common sense SHOULD dictate the difference. Milk is an everyday common food. Soy is an everyday common food. Peanuts are an everyday common food. All of these are considered to be potential allergens and are among the top of the list of common allergens. My Children's pediatrician recommended we don't give cow's milk to our children before the age of one to avoid developing an allergy to the proteins contained in it. Is this an example of being wrongly convinced to avoid this food? It seems like common sense to me. Of course even common sense apparently is subjective, as well as "long term". We are talking about months, not a lifetime avoidance. Read up more on food allergies for a better understanding, and not just journals that dismiss it.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"Of course even common sense apparently is subjective..."

Exactly.

Hundreds of years ago it was "common sense" that mysterious vapors and evil spirits transmitted disease, and it was considered nonsensical for doctors to bother washing their hands.

We've learned that common sense is also commonly wrong.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I think you may be confusing what is referred to as common knowledge with common sense. Common sense refers to something that relates to prudent and sound judgement. Common knowledge refers to something that most people believe to be, but doesn't necesarrily make it so. Common sense would serve to differentiate anaphylactic allergy and food allergy. Common knowledge would be the belief that "mysterious vapors and evil spirits transmitted disease, and it was considered nonsensical for doctors to bother washing their hands." It would be common knowledge that is commonly wrong.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"I think you may be confusing what is referred to as common knowledge with common sense."

You appear to define common sense as "something I believe". And you think that your brand of "common sense" trumps scientific evidence (or in this case, the lack of it). So there really isn't anything left to discuss. Let us know if you come across any objective documentation that food restriction cures enlarged adenoids.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

No, it was stated clearly - Common sense relates to sound and prudent judgement - not what only I believe. I never said my opinion (which IS what I believe) trumps scientific evidence. I simply don't let scientific evidence dictate my entire belief system, as scientific "evidence" can have opposing results - that is common sense. Nothing is absolute. We have been over this before. If you choose to have scientific evidence be your one and only model of thought, that is your choice. Let me know if you come across any objective studies that prove food restriction ISN'T effective for enlarged adenoids.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

The basic mechanism by which science functions is that people propose theories, and supply evidence to back their claims. If the evidence is compelling enough (and especially if experimental results can be repeated by others), the theory (or in medicine, the drug, treatment, or proposed cause of illness) is accepted.

What does not happen is that someone proposes a theory and then says "Prove me wrong!". This goes counter to the spirit of scientific inquiry as well as being impractical (insufficient resources and time exist to chase down every wild claim, especially those based on feelings and personal prejudices). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary documentation.

So if someone alleges that a miracle herb cures cancer with no side effects, or that mysterious food allergies cause adenoids to swell, it's incumbent on that person to demonstrate that the claims are true.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Well, yet again, I find another "scientific" study that refutes the information in one of your earlier threads. You stated: "One of the complications of enlarged adenoids is recurrent ear infections. From this site:" (kidshealth.org)
Apparently, one of the scientific journals you like to quote says otherwise. The link is below for your edification:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/328/7438/487

Which study is more "scientific"? What does your common sense tell you?

Let's move on.

To quote you further from 5 posts earlier:
"The one thing that I have seen with a lot of doctors of Western Medicine is that they think that everything they've learned is a FACT. Even though every day, the news is filled with stories of how they were wrong." (Heathen 1)

your response:

"It's worth noting that challenges to accepted theories in evidence-based mainstream medicine come from...researchers and practitioners involved in mainstream medicine. It's part of the healthy debate and willingness to accept change that exists in our scientific community".

Diet doesn't deserve a role in those changes? I never said I could prove that food allergies causes adenoids to swell, but it certainly is NOT out of the realm of possibility. Since diet is a common factor among all humans, it deserves (once again) to be considered.

In direct response to your last post on the "basic mechanism by which science functions":

Thurstjo's daughter had "compelling evidence" (in at least my mind and certainly Thurstjo's mind) by the eradication of her symptoms ("She now sleeps silently and is a bundle of energy with no problems breathing") This fulfills part one of your basic mechanism by which science functions. This isn't the only success story a nutritionist has had on planet earth with swollen adenoids or tonsils. That would fulfill the "experimental results repeated by others" section, or part two of your basic mechanism model. The "theory is accepted" in my mind and Thurstjo's mind, and I would bet her success story would cause others to at least consider taking their children to a nutritionist or other alternative practitioner before having the adenoids removed. The success of Thurstjo's daughter "demonstrates that the claim is true".

You have agreed that adenoidectomy (along with Lucy - who had the procedure performed) can be an effective way to treat symptoms associated with inflammation of adenoids.

I don't recall you ever actually providing a study that scientifically backs up adenoidectomy as an effective treatment. Wouldn't it would be extremely silly, however, since it has been shown (on an anecdotal basis - OH NO!!!) to be an effective way of eradicating symptoms. It is so obvious that it isn't necessary for you to "demonstrate that the claims are true" when someone who you regularly agree with on this forum has had success (among many others) with this method.

How does adenoidectomy in Lucy (which eradicated her symptoms) differ from Thurstjo's success in treating her Daughter (other than by method and sparing of the adenoids, of course)? Neither of the two methods have been supported by any "scientific studies" provided by anybody on any thread with regards to this topic, but the anecdotal evidence is compelling enough in both cases, the results have been repeated in both cases, and so the treatment should then be accepted in both cases.

You, however, are only accepting adenoidectomy as an effective treatment when both treatments fulfilled your description of the "basic mechanism by which science functions". How does the method used by Thurstjo fulfill the "basic mechanism by which science functions" any less than Lucy with her adenoidectomy? You aren't in violation of your own description, are you?


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

The difference is that my MD proposed surgery BECAUSE he was well aware my ear problems were most likely caused by either my inflamed tonsils and/or adenoids, following many years of study on the subject, backed up by thousands of other proven correlations between the two, not because his sister-in-law thought it might work because her best friend's teacher saw testimonials somewhere the year before. Yes, I 'testified' to how well things went with me, but would argue against anyone else doing it (surgery) on that basis unless it was also done as a result of proper scientific research, by accredited MD's, and not some guy with a diploma with a fancy sounding name of some school, from another guy who's real good at making them look impressive!


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

In response to jsrdc: my common sense tells me first to review what the original poster told us about her child:

"For the last year my 2.5 yr old daughter has had chronic ear infections (bolding added) so we were referred to a specialist in pediatric otolaryngology. He found that she has enlarged adenoids that are keeping fluid from properly draining from the ear.
His solution is to a)remove the adenoids and b)put drain tubes in her ears for 10 months."

From the scientific journal article to which you just linked:

"Adenoidectomy may benefit the middle ear by removing a source of infection from the nasopharynx and has been shown to be helpful in children over 4 years of age with chronic otitis media (ear infections) with effusion."

Here's an article that provides comprehensive recommendations for dealing with otitis media in a wider range of kids, including ones as young as the child mentioned in the opening post. It cites surgical removal of the adenoids as appropriate treatment if there is obstruction or chronic inflammation of the adenoids - and the pediatric ENT specialist mentioned in the opening post found both of these conditions present in this child.

So the suggested treatment is appropriate. As I suggested earlier, the child's mom might want to seek a second opinion on whether surgery is necessary.

Note that the practice guidelines do not suggest withdrawing foods from the child's diet as an experiment to see if that helps with the swollen adenoids and ear infections. They further mention the need to carefully screen the child for hearing loss and developmental problems - which could worsen if parents ignore effective treatment to experiment with diet changes suggested by an anonymous poster on the Internet.

And no, a testimonial does not "fulfill...one of (my) basic mechanism by which science functions." Testimonials are not reliable by themselves as to whether a treatment is effective. If there is good scientific documentation that a treatment works, it may be useful to hear about people's experiences with that therapy (which is why I linked earlier in this thread to the Berkeley parents' network - oddly, I don't see you citing the parents' positive testimonials about how adenoid surgery helped their children).


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Lucy,

I am not saying your adenoidectomy wasn't justified. ONCE AGAIN, and I have said this countless times - I am NOT against removal of adenoids IF it is NECESSARY. According to you Lucy, the MD still wasn't 100% sure as to the cause of your ear problems. You stated "my MD proposed surgery because he was well aware my ear problems were most likely caused by either my inflamed tonsils and/or adenoids" - MOST LIKELY caused by either inflamed tonsils and/or adenoids. Why they don't address the CAUSE of the inflamed tonsils and/or adenoids instead of removal is a major point of contention with me and others on this site.

Thurtsjo's daughter was taken to a nutritionist who had SUCCESS with her adenoid condition WITHOUT the need for surgery. I don't see how this nutritionist fits into the category of "not some guy with a diploma with a fancy sounding name of some school, from another guy who's real good at making them look impressive!" Why is it any less credible in her case? Because she DIDN'T have the adenoids removed? Removal would have been OK with you, right? Why is it NOT OK that she had success with an alternative method? I can understand if she had exhausted all other methods and then turned to surgery as a final option. Since it was a nutritionist (one who specializes in nutrition) who helped with the recovery (along with a lab with ISO quality management certification and the approval of Allergy UK, which is the leading UK charity on allergies for its test) and supplements given based on the nutritionist's training, that isn't as credible as an MD (one who specializes in drugs and/or surgery) who wanted to excise the adenoids or put tubes in her daughters ears for 10 months? Where is the Patients best interests in that? I, for one as a parent, would weigh the option of recovery from surgery, possible complications of surgery and anesthesia, complications from 10 months of tubes and how it would affect the child's home life, social activities, etc. I would then factor in the complications from taking my child to a nutritionist and/or Homeopath and/or other practitioners to see if other primary factors were actually contributing to the swollen adenoids/tonsils in the first place. That may be considered going against the "scientific" grain in the opinion of others, but that is what I would choose to do (and apparently that is what Thurstjo chose to do and had wonderful success with the outcome).

Eric oh:

Did you happen to miss the CONCLUSION in the study I cited before from the BMJ? Here it is in case you did:

Conclusions:Adenoidectomy, as the first surgical treatment of children aged 10 to 24 months with recurrent acute otitis media, is not effective in preventing further episodes. It cannot be recommended as the primary method of prophylaxis.

You take one line from the INTRODUCTION section of that article and spotlight it as though that is the conclusion of the study. Now I am not a professional journal reader, but I would venture to say it is "unscientific" to take a line from the introduction and flaunt as if it is the conclusion of the study. In addition the line you did quote says that adenoidectomy "may" benefit the middle ear. It is not conclusive.

You then cite another study from pubmed that talks about ear infections, and that in that study (since you are in to one-liners) it clearly states with regards to adenoids: "Adenoidectomy should not be performed unless a distinct indication exists (nasal obstruction, chronic adenoiditis"). Nowhere in the original post did it say anything about amadeus's daughter having CHRONIC adenoiditis. The original post talked only about chronic ear infections, but the actual cause of the ear infection was never discussed. How does you know with full clarity that that Amadeus's daughter had CHRONIC adenoiditis? You don't.

Lucy's story is, in fact, a testimonial. Based on your quote of how "Testimonials are not reliable by themselves as to whether a treatment is effective", that would leave Lucy's success as nothing more than anecdotal evidence. I have never argued that removal of adenoids or tonsils isn't successful at reducing or eradicating symptoms. It just never addressed the cause of the problem. It only addressed the symptoms.

To quote you Eric oh:
"Note that the practice guidelines do not suggest withdrawing foods from the child's diet as an experiment to see if that helps with the swollen adenoids and ear infections. They further mention the need to carefully screen the child for hearing loss and developmental problems - which could worsen if parents ignore effective treatment to experiment with diet changes suggested by an anonymous poster on the Internet."

Of course practice guidelines don't suggest withdrawing foods from the diet as a possible CAUSE of the adenoids and ear infections. It still doesn't prove it isn't a cause. It only proves that they don't believe it to be an effective option. Did you happen to forget the study on nutrition and MD's? You know, the one in which you stated "Lastly, I am not taking issue with the paper you quoted regarding medical school nutrition education (the one finding that nutrition is an integral part of schooling)" I would expect the guidelines to be astute enough to focus on the methods that support the majority of the training the MD's receive in school.

Common sense (haha) dictates that there is no good reason for an MD to follow a course of treatment in nutrition that composes only 21-30 hours in overall education while in Medical school. Leaving that to the nutritionists, who specialize more in nutrition, is a more prudent option.

The bottom line is this, Eric oh:

Based on your posts, You and Lucy appear to be in the camp that believes (in the case of inflamed adenoids and/or tonsils) in the removal of such tissues based on the eradication of symptoms. This is based on what you feel constitutes "scientific" evidence and case studies who have performed the same procedure in the past. Anything else is not scientific and not therefore dangerous or not validated. Correct me if I am wrong in this description.

I and others are in the camp that the CAUSE of the adenoid and/or tonsil inflammation should be investigated before excision of these lymphoid tissues is performed. One way to do this is to look into choosing a nutritionist and/or other alternative practitioner to investigate the bigger picture of overall health of the body by assessing potential allergies to foods or other substances.

If you don't like what you see in our camp, don't look at ours, and by all means choose to stay in yours. It doesn't mean our camp doesn't exist. It doesn't mean our camp is less effective than yours. It only means you don't agree with the basis of our camp. That is your choice.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

jsrdc The article you cite concludes that acute otitis media is not helped by adenoidectomy together with ear tubes. The mother who began this thread specifically stated that her child has chronic ear infections. The article you cite specifically mentions that adenoidectomy has been found helpful in chronic ear infections. Therefore it supports my conclusions.

Regarding whether the child in question has chronic adenoiditis, it's a logical conclusion based on the mother's description. Big, swollen adenoids and tonsils typically get that way from repeated infections and reflect a chronic state of inflammation - not a one-time acute event. Obstruction from chronic adenoidal enlargement is a potential indication for surgery to avoid hearing loss and breathing problems.

As far as being in a "camp", I'll happily acknowledge being on the side of evidence-based medicine, whether herbal, "alternative" or mainstream.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Well, Eric oh, your very first thread in this forum states, and I quote (again):

"One of the complications of enlarged adenoids is RECURRENT ear infections. From this site:"

The study I mentioned that opposes the study you referenced in your first thread is entitled "Adenoidectomy versus chemoprophylaxis and placebo for RECURRENT acute otitis media in children aged under 2 years: randomised controlled trial"

Recurrent acute otitis media is interchangeable with chronic otitis media. This article isn't pointing out an isolated case of acute otitis media, but RECURRENT cases. Don't be so bold as to change the title of the study OR the conclusion just so it fits into your argument. That is unscientific, and it goes against any form of common sense, to say the least. Do your best to get your argument in line with the actual language you use. It affects your credibility when they oppose each other.

Since recurrent is a synonym for chronic, the BJM study still opposes your kidshealth.org study. And I ask you again, which is more scientific as well as which is more evidence-based? Are you still standing by the reference in your first thread? If so, it just goes to further prove that evidence-based studies can and do oppose each other.

To quote you again from your most recent thread, Eric oh:

"jsrdc The article you cite specifically mentions that adenoidectomy has been found helpful in chronic ear infections. Therefore it supports my conclusions."

This is incorrect. What the article SPECIFICALLY states is the following (which is once again not in the conclusion, but in the introduction of the article):

"Adenoidectomy may benefit the middle ear by removing a source of infection from the nasopharynx and has been shown to be helpful in children over 4 years of age with chronic otitis media with effusion"

The child in the first post is 2 1/2 years of age, not over 4 years of age - can you cite a study for children aged between 2 1/2 to 4 years old with this condition? MD's would likely reference a journal study they plan to use to support their choice of treatment that is closest in age parameters to the Patient being treated. That would be a logical conclusion, and you do support logical conclusions, right?

Since you have established yourself to be in the evidence-based medicine camp, which is completely fine, I would like to point out the following, which is from wikipedia with regards to "Evidence-based medicine":

"The types of trials considered "gold standard" (i.e. randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trials) may be expensive, so that funding sources play a role in what gets investigated. For example, public authorities may tend to fund preventive medicine studies to improve public health as a whole, while pharmaceutical companies fund studies intended to demonstrate the efficacy and safety of particular drugs".

ALL of the sources you have provided studies from in any thread are very medically-oriented studies in which no nutritional-based studies would be found. Bias in funding equates to what gets published. This still doesn't mean nutrition doesn't have a valid role in inflammation or disease (whether it is related to swollen adenoids or not).

Further information on evidence-based medicine, again from wikipedia:

"The studies that are published in medical journals may not be representative of all the studies that are completed on a given topic (published and unpublished) or may be misleading due to conflicts of interest (i.e. publication bias).[7]"

This is evidenced by different journals ending up with different conclusions for similar studies.

I am not disputing gold standard or evidence-based medicine. But I won't throw out alternative treatments because gold standard treatments or quackwatch feels they are useless. It is akin to me pointing you to read the American Journal of Nutrition with regards to how effective Celebrex is for joint pain - that would be a useless suggestion.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I think a point has been missed here, or at least gone around to make others, and that is that infections, whether chronic or acute, are a factor of bacteria growing out of control and causing inflammation. I have yet to come across any scientific evidence that nutrition plays any part in bacteria multiplying, most certainly not in the majority of aerobic infections that are attacked and killed by antibiotics such as penicillin. There may be a link in cases of anaerobic bacteria, with growth emerging from organic, food-based fungi, and treated with gram-negative antibiotics, but the usual culprits in the above arguments are gram-positive, aerobic (air-borne) and contagion (passed on by touch) based, making the rounds of day care centres and schools notorious for being 'homes' for them. Anaerobic infections such as salmonella are often seen in people who have eaten, e.g. salads left open to the sun in summer, but those bacteria do not cause adenoid inflammation.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"Chronic" otitis media is sometimes referred to as recurrent otitis media. But "acute" and "chronic" otitis media are not the same thing, though the BMJ study jsrdc cites blurs the definitions a bit. For more on what the difference is between acute and chronic otitis media, check out this National Institutes of Health website.

jsrds, I suggest you go back and look at that BMJ article again, as it does not say what you think it does. As well, please refer to the comprehensive pediatric practice guidelines I linked to, which clearly indicate that surgical adenoidectomy is appropriate treatment for the type of adenoidal enlargement described in the child whose treatment we have been discussing.

A great deal of scientific research has been done on nutrition, including its role in certain medical conditions (do a PubMed online search and you'll be deluged with literature citations). An enormous amount of work has been done on vitamins alone.

I'm a little puzzled. First you quote a scientific article when you think it backs your position (which it doesn't), and then you condemn scientific research in general as a tool of Big Pharma (though the great majority of medical research does not involve testing pharmaceuticals).

You seem to be trying to have it both ways. ;)


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Eric oh,
I fully understand the differences between acute and chronic. Much to your disliking, I do possess common sense. Having said that, recurrent episodes of acute otitis media, or recurrent otitis media are very interchangeable. It is (obviously) stated as recurrent when it occurs more than once. Acute otitis media is a SINGLE episode. However, recurrent episodes of otitis media (referred to specifically as "recurrent acute otitis media" in the BMJ article) is the crux of the article. To further clarify it for you, the same NIH website you quoted in your last thread states the following:

The term "acute" refers to a short and painful episode. An ear infection that lasts a long time or comes and goes is called chronic otitis media.

Recurrent is the term you specifically used in your first thread - did you actually mean chronic and misunderstand the term recurrent? If so, it is OK to admit the misnomer. I won't tell anybody. The original poster described her daughter to be suffering from "chronic ear infections", so I think your intent by using "recurrent" is clear.

Since "chronic" is BOTH an infection that lasts a long time AND one that comes and goes (this again, is according to the NIH article you posted) the BMJ study DOES actually fit into the "chronic description - see the following:

The BMJ article is based on the following criteria:
"To be eligible, the child had to have experienced at least three acute episodes during the previous six months". Is three episodes of what they call "acute recurrent otitis media" in a 6 month period not considered to be an infection that comes and goes? This is why they referred to it as recurrent acute otitis media - they could have easily stated it to be recurrent otitis media. It is the same thing. Are you possibly the one who is mistaken on this article, and just not able to accept that it opposes an article you earlier quoted - both of which are in "scientific" journals? That is what is sounds like to me.

Secondly, I have NEVER disputed (nor needed to) what the "comprehensive pediatric practice guidelines" say. I would have guessed without ever reading it that it is common procedure to surgically remove adenoids. I think you are still failing to understand that this is Gardenweb.com, not the comprehensive pediatric guidelines website. People on this site are still open to alternative therapies, regardless of how many medical studies, guidelines, or journals you may use in your quest.

I only quote scientific articles that have opposed a specific view or conclusion that you have quoted in the past. This has been done to show a lack of consistencies among different journals that happen to study the same topic.

I don't condemn scientific research in general, nor do I condemn it as a tool of Big pharm - I was simply and specifically quoting a wikipedia page on evidence-based medicine, in which YOU have stated you are a proponent. Once again, there is nothing wrong with that. I simply have found articles or studies that challenge what you have quoted, and then you feel inclined to incorrectly point out that what I have found is "my" opinion. It is specifically designed to help you get it that NOTHING is absolute, even in the evidence-based medicine world. Having explained that, it sure shoots down your observation that " I seem to be trying to have it both ways". =0


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"Secondly, I have NEVER disputed (nor needed to) what the "comprehensive pediatric practice guidelines" say."

Really? Didn't you just spend your last several posts attempting to interpret a journal article as showing that adenoidectomy is not effective in chronic ear infections?

"I think you are still failing to understand that this is Gardenweb.com, not the comprehensive pediatric guidelines website. People on this site are still open to alternative therapies, regardless of how many medical studies, guidelines, or journals you may use in your quest."

Sounds like you're trying to have it both ways again. It's OK for you to quote a journal article to try to prove a point, but not for me?

Sure, visitors to this forum generally want to find out about herbal drugs as opposed to mainstream medications. Lots of people want their herbal treatments to be evidence-based, meaning that their effectiveness and safety have been demonstrated in clinical trials. There will always be those content to accept testimonials and unproven claims that fit in with their way of thinking, and they are free to tune out what they don't want to hear.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Eric oh, You really are attempting to sidestep the most recently debated issue - is the BMJ article indicated or not for chronic ear infections? I believe it is, and I also believe you now realize it, otherwise you would have posted a further argument in your last thread. It is OK to say you are incorrect. If I am incorrect, I have no reservations about being up front about it, and I will gladly admit my mistakes. You have shown an aversion to say you are mistaken on two occasions now. Are you in politics, by chance?

Secondly, I personally have never disputed the pediatric guidelines. The BMJ article may have conflicting information with regards to those guidelines. I referenced that particular article in response to your "recurrent" ear infections thread. If that goes against the pediatric guidelines, you may want to be very careful in which sources you quote, and think about quoting a journal in the future that doesn't conflict with your earlier statements. I don't write the journals, I just quote them

Now, to quote you, Eric oh:
"Really? Didn't you just spend your last several posts attempting to interpret a journal article as showing that adenoidectomy is not effective in chronic ear infections?"

I didn't "attempt" to show it wasn't effective - I made a clear and concise argument with regards to what the conclusion stated - what I DIDN'T do is take a line from the introduction and try to use it as part of the conclusion. Your attempts to dispute that particular BMJ article have obviously stopped, and for good reason.

Thirdly, it is OK for ANY of us to quote a journal, not just myself, and certainly not just you. Consistency is the only point of contention I have with regards to journals you may quote, and as you have read, I have found inconsistencies. Because I point them out doesn't equate me wanting to "have it both ways".

Lastly, I wouldn't be surprised if many have tuned you out, and many likely have tuned me out. I don't take it personally. If I am wrong, I will gladly admit it. If I have offended anyone, please understand it is not personal. This is a debate where freedom of speech is allowed, to discuss alternative methods of healing, and to provoke thought among the Gardenweb members.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I am not posting "further arguments" because it would be repetitive.

Anyone who wants to form an opinion on valid therapy for enlarged adenoids now has ample resources to consult.

With regard to further pointless personal interchange, count me among those now tuning out.

Best of luck in your endeavors.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Same to you with your endeavors - I am sorry to hear that you feel our exchanges are pointless. It wasn't many threads ago that you stated "This is the sort of open discussion we need". I guess that stamina is fading ;)


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

A note on that website states that its "information" is not intended to diagnose or treat any disease.

So, better save your money than buy useless supplements.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Hello agaain, eric oh - to clarify your above statement for anybody not familiar with that particular statement, ANY supplement that does not have a drug status or is not reviewed by the FDA is required to state the following:

"This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease".

Here is the reference:

Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 21, Volume 2]
[Revised as of April 1, 2004]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 21CFR101.93]

A bottle of Garlic tablets have to state the same. It doesn't make garlic a useless supplement.


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It's a wonder product - or it isn't

Well, let's see.

The poster in question is telling mom that the miracle carb product is "a new discovery in wellness", that the daughter's body will "heal and regenerate itself", and that the product will have a "GLOBAL IMPACT on dis-ease" (whatever "dis-ease" might refer to), and will make a "world of difference".

Given all that, it's kind of disconcerting to see the miracle carb promoters telling us in fine print that the product isn't actually intended to treat anything (!). This is typical use of a loophole allowed by Congress, where supplement dealers can make general claims for a product without having to do any of the work necessary to show the product is effective for any purpose. Even if they cross the line and start claiming their product works on arthritis, cancer or swollen adenoids, it may be months or years before the FDA takes action, by which time the supplement dealer can be in Rio enjoying an extended beach holiday.

So it's buyer beware - and in this case there's nothing to back up the grandiose promises.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Buyer beware applies to anything, including food, cars, pharmaceuticals, and yes, even "special carbs". Even though drugs are regulated by the FDA, you still put your well being at risk and end up trading current symptoms for other symptoms (sometimes more symptoms, and usually worse)by taking any of the countless number of prescription drugs. Just take a look at the side effects on ANY medication, including aspirin or other "safe" OTC medications. Buyer beware applies the pharmaceuticals and any other entity, even if it is regulated. Ulitmately, you are missing my point, eric oh. I am not advocating taking special carbs. I am pointing out that ANY supplement that is not regulated by the FDA by law has to state their product is not intended to diagnose or treat disease, NOT just the special carbs. Secondly, the body is what does all of the healing - the life force. Drugs certainly don't heal, and special carbs don't heal either. The body heals and regenerates under the right conditions. Let's not confuse that by any means. Lastly, that supplement dealer who ends up in Rio may just be having dinner with a Pharmaceutical CFO whose company peddles "legal" drugs that still end up hurting and even killing thousands of people every year regardless of their regulation.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"Buyer beware applies to anything, including food, cars, pharmaceuticals"

Agreed.

"Even though drugs are regulated by the FDA, you still put your well being at risk "

What you get with a regulated drug is something that has to be shown to effectively treat a condition, and a chance to make an intelligent decision about whether the benefits justify the cost and potential side effects. What you get by "treating" swollen adenoids with Wonder Carbs is no demonstrated benefit at all, a waste of money, and the likelihood of watching your child suffer with continued infections and the potential for hearing loss and other problems.

"Secondly, the body is what does all of the healing - the life force"

In that case we shouldn't be messing around with drugs or supplements. Trouble is, not all "life forces" (including bacteria and viruses) are beneficial, and we can use a nudge in the right direction through proper care.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

What you "get" with regulated drugs are "regulated" chemicals created by a pharmaceutical company which in turn, is "regulated" by the FDA. Even with regulation, the risk of harm is still there. We know this already. There are no denying the side effects that come with these drugs. People make "intelligent" decisions all the time with regards to drugs, and some lose their lives as a result. Some get more side effects. Some get "relief" due to suppression of symptoms. Drugs don't cure anything. Anybody who says otherwise, I beg to differ. Since glyconutrients are already found naturally in known healthy foods, are they then useless if you eat the healthy foods (Goji, seaweed, echinacea, and aloe) that contain them? I believe the poster who advocated looking into glyconutrients isn't claiming them to be a cure for swollen adenoids. Give the body what it needs to heal, remove the resistance that is causing the problem in the first place, and watch the body heal itself. That is the life force I was referring to - not pathogenic bacteria and viruses, although some bacteria are beneficial to the body, such as the probiotics (acidophilus, bifdium). The body isn't given enough credit to heal itself. Do we really need drugs to be healthy? No. And what "nudges in the right direction through proper care" are acceptable? I am glad to see your stamina has returned, eric oh.....


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I'm not sure what drugs, regulated or not, have to do with the original poster's request - since no drug was being considered to manage this child's adenoidal enlargement. The option being considered was surgical - which would remove the source of the problem.

Those of us advising the mom in this thread to consider only therapy of proven value have not made statements about whether supplements are good or bad in general, just that they have no demonstrated effectiveness for swollen adenoids.

Several posters have used this thread as a platform for their ideas on pH, food allergies, Wonder Carbs, the Evils of We$tern Medicine etc.

"Drugs don't cure anything. Anybody who says otherwise, I beg to differ."

You could take this up with Lance Armstrong. Or any of the many cancer patients (including thousands of children with leukemia) cured by modern therapy. Or someone whose life-threatening infection was conquered by antibiotics. But you'd probably claim the outcomes in all these and many other cases were due to "life force".


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Lets put these cancer drugs you mention to the test, eric oh. Let's take 5 lifeless bodies, all who unfortunately perished from cancer, and inject them all with these modern cancer drugs. Let's see how many of these bodies then become cancer-free. Better yet, let's take any single body who was overcome by a major infection, give that body some antibiotics, and let's see if the infection that overcame the body goes away. What is missing here is the life force. Lance Armstrong was and is an amazing athlete in amazing shape. His chances of beating cancer when he was diagnosed were arguably better than most. I am not denying his cancer drugs helped him to beat the cancer, but none of it is possible without the inherent force in the body that supports life. So, yes, outcomes in ALL cases of healing are central to having life force to begin with. I challenge you to find a single Doctor in his or her right mind who would disagree with this.

To quote you eric oh - "I'm not sure what drugs, regulated or not, have to do with the original poster's request".

You have argued from day one how alternatives to drugs are "useless" or "ineffective". Yet, if a medical treatment such as antibiotics (drug) was brought up, you either supported or had no quarrel with such, because it it either mainstream or found in a journal. You yourself have been supportive of such from day one, so that particular statement is in direct conflict with your previous threads.

Body pH, food allergies, and other conditions can reduce the resistance of the body's immune system. That can lead to a whole host of conditions, including ear infections and swollen adenoids related to ear infections. Can adenoid enlargement be due to a virus, or bacterial infection? OF course. Can it be due to other things that precipitate the infection? Yes. The bottom line is alternative therapies work, such as homeopathy and such as acupuncture. Diet should be the first thing addressed in my opinion, as your digestive system is a large part of your immunity, and since the food you eat daily interfaces with your digestive system. Then begin digging deeper once the potential dietary issues have been dealt with.

To further quote you eric oh - "Those of us advising the mom in this thread to consider only therapy of proven value have not made statements about whether supplements are good or bad in general, just that they have no demonstrated effectiveness for swollen adenoids".

You have repeatedly assessed alternative therapies including supplements to be "useless", "harmful", or that they are "putting your child at risk". That sure sounds to me that you have made your argument for supplements being "bad", at least in regards to swollen adenoids or ear infections.

I just hope the final outcome for all of this back and forth banter has been the child with the swollen adenoids has had success, and that his/her condition was resolved without having to cut out immune system tissues as a way of getting rid of the symptoms. Ultimately, the child's well being, regardless of your belief system is the most important aspect of all of this, in my opinion. Peace out.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Regarding "life force", I absolutely agree that a person has to be alive to be successfully treated for any condition. :)

You're also right that I've pointed out that supplements are useless for a child with enlarged adenoids. So, for the most part, are prescription drugs. So are homeopathy, acupuncture and any number of things which well-intentioned but misinformed people promote on the basis of personal philosophy and undocumented testimonials.

I too hope this child got the help she needed, without a lengthy period of time wasted exploring "alternative" treatments. As I mentioned before, someone close to me underwent a long period of misery with enlarged tonsils and adenoids as a child while her mother dithered over surgery, which fixed the problem.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Let's not forget Thurstjo, who posted earlier and had success with her daughter's adenoid problem. If you recall, it was with the help of the "useless" nutritionist and homeopathic Doctor, much to the dismay of her MD's. Would her success be considered "a lengthy period of time wasted", or perhaps time well spent by avoiding cutting out specialized immune system tissues? Why would you consider that success story an undocumented testimonial? I also wonder if the person's Mother you know who had the adenoid problems looked into diet and other alternative methods before choosing surgery for her daughter. Surgery certainly stopped the symptoms. If you have no adenoids, there won't be swelling of those tissues once exposed to stress (bacteria, viruses, allergies, etc.) If that particular person had tried acupuncture or supplements, and it had worked for her, would you still be calling those particular methods useless?


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

"Why would you consider that success story an undocumented testimonial?"

Because that's exactly what it is.

In a long thread like this you often find testimonials from various people for a whole slew of treatments, both pro and con. Each person may believe they know the one true way. Or they've never tried the therapy in question but want to promote a particular health philosophy. Or they're attempting to sell something. There's no way to tell.

"Quacks often use case histories, testimonials, and subjective evidence to justify their exaggerated claims...Testimonial evidence is by definition biased and unreliable. Scientists report their studies in reputable journals, where their work is reviewed and evaluated by other scientists prior to publication. Controlled experiments that can be confirmed by repeating the study are the best way to document the truth of the information."

Relying on testimonials for health care information is bound to steer you wrong.

More on why people fall for testimonials.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Call it what you want, play the semantics game - when you box yourself into a particular paradigm, you miss a lot of the stuff on the "outside". Thurstjo's daughter had success, and you refuse to give it any credit. That is OK - regardless of what you think, the outcome of her success speaks for itself. The countless others who have used similar methods with success know the value the efficacy as well. When the science eventually catches up to the "how" with regards to alternative therapies working, then hopefully some progress will be made - instead of just dismissing them because they are out of the box, then even more progress can be made. I believe this is a competition thing. Not all therapies work, whether scientific or not. But, because one may choose to not always "drink the koolade" of scientific study, you are branded either a quack or your method is ineffective. That might be a bit extreme on the part of science. Sticking with the chronic ear infection topic, here are some examples of the scientific community and the uncertainty involved with some of the "scientific" methods on dealing with chronic ear infections:

Medical Herbalism: Clinical Articles and Case Studies

Doing nothing may actually be more effective than surgery. In one study, children with congestion in both ears had a tube implanted in only one ear. The untreated ear had fewer subsequent infections than the treated one. A 1989 study showed that the surgery offered no advantage over doing nothing in terms of duration of the disease, recurrence of disease, subsequent surgery, or hearing loss after twelve months, even for patients with serious initial hearing loss.

Routine removal of adenoids, practiced by many surgeons, has no beneficial effect on the accumulation of fluid in the middle ear and consequent hearing loss.

Most children receiving the operation continue to get ear infections.

The operation may have to be repeated, about 30% of the time, according to one study, and more than 50% in children under two years old.

Chronic fluid in the ear and accompanying hearing loss tends to improve spontaneously. A study shows improvement without treatment in more than 80% of children, with 50% returning to near normal.

Treatment for allergies or food sensitivities may solve the problem.

Minor delay in speech development due to chronic hearing impairment is not likely to have long-term consequences. Some physicians inappropriately warn parents that the hearing loss will lead to learning disabilities.

Placement of tubes causes permanent scarring of the eardrums in about half of patients.

Serious complications, such as meningitis or brain abscess, are rare, and the operation does not apparently reduce such complications. A Scottish study found that in the twenty years between 1966 and 1986, these complications remained stable, even though the frequency of the ear tube operation increased sixty-fold.

Children spontaneously outgrow chronic ear problems, usually by about age seven. The adenoids naturally reduce in size, and as the skull becomes longer and higher with normal growth, the eustachian tube becomes more vertical and drains more easily.

The immediate benefit of the surgery is immediate improvement of hearing and reduction of pain. To a child with fluid in the ears, a normal conversational voice sounds like a soft whisper. To compensate, the child amy turn up the television sound unusually high, or may not hear the teacher well in school. Sometimes the parents think the child is ignoring them. A few weeks after the operation the hearing usually returns to normal. The tubes also relieve the main cause of pain—pressure in the middle ear. Many ear specialists recommend surgery if an ear infection persists for more than thirty days, but others wait six months in most cases, with medical supervision, until it is clear that hearing impairment is continuing.

The dangers of surgery are those inherent in general anesthesia. Adverse reactions to anesthesia affect about one child in three. The most common is simple nausea after surgery, but reactions are life-threatening in about one child in a thousand. Antibiotic therapy also has risks. About one patient in ten develop allergies to antibiotics. Bactrim, an antibiotic commonly used to treat ear infections, can produce more than sixty kinds of side effects. Some, although rare, are potentially fatal.

The link to the above information: http://medherb.com/Therapeutics/Pediatrics_-_Chronic_childhood_ear_infections.htm


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

It's interesting that the author of your article damning medical treatments (a naturopath?) is eager to point out that childhood ear infections and related problems may improve spontaneously. But when it comes to posting anecdotes about selected patients, he's convinced that his tinctures and diet recommendations must have been effective and not the result of spontaneous improvement. :)

This again is why anecdotes and testimonials can't take the place of well-conducted clinical trials. Anyone who refers to science as "drinking the koolade" and doesn't see the value of following the rules of evidence will never be convinced.

Parents who want the best for their kids will research the issue and make their own decisions.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

eric oh - the material I referenced is citing raw stats from clinical articles, NOT the author's opinion. Below that raw data, he also goes on to recommend both common and safe herbs and remedies,such as vitamin C, echinacea, garlic oil, muellein oil (a nice fit for gardenweb.com). Any problem with Vit.C or garlic? They work very well for lots of things, and have unlimited documented uses, which are both effective and safe. The case studies he documents BELOW the article I referenced must be to what you are referring when you state it is the author's opinion.

Sorry to inform you, but evidence shows that the ear infections do, in some cases, resolve spontaneously (life force, perhaps?) It has served me and others well to question even the most "scientific" studies - as we have discussed many times before, there are always interests at stake. "Drinking the koolade" was meant as a metaphor signifying how some blindly follow what is supposed to be status quo in the scientific community. If you choose to blindly follow, and be one of the herd, that is your choice. I couldn't agree with you more when you stated that "Parents who want the best for their kids will research the issue and make their own decisions". The only issue here is that you denounce those decisions when they don't fit into your idea of what works or what is effective.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

As you are mischaracterizing my statements and arguing with things I have not said, it is probably best to refer you back to my previous two posts.

I'd be happy to discuss any documented studies showing a role for diet, supplements or trust in "life force" for relieving the misery of a child with chronically swollen adenoids and frequent ear infections.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Eric Oh, and Lucy too-
Did you even READ the original posters questions? HE (you've repeatedly refered to him as the child's Mother...) was seeking suggestions for his RESEARCH for alternatives to surgery. He does not indicate that whatever is recommended here is what he will automatically try. Sometimes when you are seeking answers, you need some idea what questions to ask. You two are awfully eager to jump in and discourage anyone from looking into alternatives that might be found on this forum (HERBALISM) in case you've forgotten. I agree wholeheartedly with Heathen. I invariably reach a point when reading a thread like this where I simply start skipping your replies. I come here because I am interested in Herbalism and would like to learn more, as well as converse with others who share that interest. I'm not stupid, and I don't take everything I read as the gospel truth, including your tedious lists of research funded by the not so reliable (in my humble opinion) FDA and Medical community. I truly do appreciate it if someone tells me an Herb I'm interested in is toxic, though I am also aware that any Herb that is truly effective has the potential to be toxic if not used properly. I am a firm believer in 2nd opinions if what your Doctor recommends doesn't feel right to you- I still have a healthy functioning ovary after a hysterectomy because I fired my first Doctor and found one who was willing to listen to, and answer all my questions and concerns. I know it won't do any good to ask you guys to back off, but at least re-read the original post. I've copied it and tacked it on this message, although I'm afraid you lost Joshua's attention. You may have noticed that he hasn't replied. I sincerely hope he found some answers that were helpful to him and that his daughter is better. Kathy


For the last year my 2.5 yr old daughter has had chronic ear infections so we were referred to a specialist in pediatric otolaryngology. He found that she has enlarged adenoids that are keeping fluid from properly draining from the ear.
His solution is to a)remove the adenoids and b)put drain tubes in her ears for 10 months.
As a parent my instinct tells me to take his solution as a last alternative. I asked him what the alternatives are and his response was "other than not treating it there is no other alternative". What bothers me is that he has no idea what is causing it. So to me, his approach is like throwing a stone in the dark.
So now Im in research mode looking for other ways to resolve the the issue. Im looking for recommendations on what direction I should go. What kind of doctor should I seek out? What kind of treatments are availabe whether its homeopathic, herbal, or nutrition?
Thank you for any help.
Joshua


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I and others have posted information to help the original poster make a decision (father, not mother as you noted, though that doesn't affect the advice given). For instance, he was puzzled about the cause for his daughter's condition, and I posted information and a helpful link to explain it and the suggested treatment.

tasymo: "Did you even READ the original posters questions?...I invariably reach a point when reading a thread like this where I simply start skipping your replies...I am a firm believer in 2nd opinions if what your Doctor recommends doesn't feel right to you...I know it won't do any good to ask you guys to back off, but at least re-read the original post."

Apparently you skipped over this reply of mine earlier in the thread, one of two occasions where I suggested the original poster might benefit from a second opinion: "I can understand a parent being concerned about a recommendation for surgery (and maybe a second opinion would be reassuring), but I don't know of any nutritional or herbal remedies that could be expected to shrink adenoids and prevent recurrent ear infections that potentially could damage a child's hearing."

It's certainly any poster's privilege not to read or respond to comments with which they disagree, but if you feel the need to make personal attacks, it helps to check first on what the other poster actually said.


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Eric, I don't believe what I said was a personal attack. I don't know enough about you to do that. I simply stating what I feel. This forum is supposed to be a place to discuss HERBALISM, not a place to discourage folks from exploring it.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Kathy (tasymo) - we are in complete agreement, to start with.
You see, it is eric oh's Modis operandi to denounce any treatment that he feels isn't scientific, isn't found in a journal of his liking, or doesn't have effectiveness. For whatever reason, it isn't enough for only HIM to believe strongly in what he feels is right - he can't help but to spread his "gospel" to the others (regardless of whether or not others want to hear it), even when he is way off base with regards to where he spreads that gospel - gardenweb.com in this instance. Then, when somebody calls him out on it, he goes on the defensive and begins to claim he was personally attacked. I have witnessed it for some time. I believe his intentions are good, just very misplaced, and not popular by any means in this forum. Why he isn't choosing to spend his time on medical forums, or quackwatch forums is a surprise to me - he would fit in extremely well, bashing herbs and alternatives with those of that ilk. Maybe it is his mission to convert all of us here on gardenweb.com - it won't happen.

Just like his last thread to me - he stated:

"As you are mischaracterizing my statements and arguing with things I have not said, it is probably best to refer you back to my previous two posts.

I would now like to respond to that. You stated the following three posts ago, eric oh:

"It's interesting that the author of your article damning medical treatments(a naturopath?) is eager to point out that childhood ear infections and related problems may improve spontaneously.

To quote you again, eric oh: "As you are mischaracterizing my statements and arguing with things I have not said, it is probably best to refer you back to my previous two posts".

I have not mischaracterized you or anyone on this site.

Once again, it is not "my" article. I found an article with raw data, posted a thread showing the raw data from the article, and you then accuse the author of "damning medical treatments" by referring to the case studies in which you did not agree. The data is not based upon the opinion of myself or the author trying to "damn medical treatments". That is specifically what I referred to when I stated "it is not the opinion of the author".

In those case studies, he is successful using methods other than medicine, and he reports what has worked. If you disagree with the case studies, so be it. It won't change the fact that he had success using alternative methods, regardless of your beliefs in alternative therapies.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

It'd be nice if we could disagree on the safety or effectiveness of a particular treatment without resorting to personal attacks on whoever we might disagree with. Ad hominem tactics should have no place here.

The forum is explicitly for the discussion of using herbs for medicinal purposes. It has never been about unqualified praise for every form of alternative medicine and denunciation of all mainstream/evidence-based medicine. While there are numerous herbs about which I've had favorable things to say over the years (including St. John's wort, black cohosh and feverfew), there are herbal remedies that are ineffective and/or dangerous, and can legitimately be questioned (and yes, jsrdc, I do consider ineffectiveness as a reason to criticize a treatment).

We have regular posters here who believe in the concept of complementary medicine (combining the best of herbal and mainstream treatments) and they add a lot to the discussions. If anybody would prefer a forum geared to unquestioning acceptance all types of alt med, attacks on any favorable mention of mainstream medicine, abuse and banning of all who feel differently, plus lots of advertisers and fake testimonials, e-mail me and I'll recommend some sites for you.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Thanks Jsrdc, for the back up! It is very frustrating to read through a thread like this and to constantly have to wade through reams of "case studies" and such. I suspect many people give up and log off. I'm here looking for personal experiences of Folks who utilize the very real medicinal value of Herbs, especially the people who grow and prepare their own. Yes, Lucy. The very "word of mouth" you so vigorously decry. I know how to use Google. If I hear about something here that I'd like to further investigate, it's not difficult to locate plenty of documention of case studies involving those herbs. How those studies are funded puts a huge dent in their believability, however. Our World does not naturally have pills and scalpels scattered across it, but it does have Herbs, flourishing without Human intervention. I sincerely believe they are here for a very good reason. Kathy


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Eric oh,
It certainly is not breaking news to me that you consider effectiveness a reason to criticize a treatment. The core issue is more that your particular idea of "effectiveness" is narrowed and viewed with blinders. You have criticized the effectiveness of virtually every alternative method I and others have mentioned - acupuncture, homeopathy, food allergy testing, pH, etc. You have no qualms when it comes to criticizing, but when the criticism boomerangs back to you, you cry foul, and claim ad hominem tactics are at work. What is the old saying? If you can dish it out, you better darn well be able to take it in return.

Yes, there are posters who are interested in the best of both mainstream and herbalism on this site. There are also posters who are more interested in alternative methods, including herbalism and other forms of holistic approaches. I believe that is why they are on gardenweb.com in the first place. The latter really isn't in need nor do they deserve a constant barrage of adjectives denouncing anything that doesn't have a journal reference or pharmaceutical study attached to it. Give people a little more credit than that. There are loads of people who are very intelligent and have common sense who don't happen to read JMPT or NEJM to validate their health choices. I would bet most people on this forum have enough intelligence to be able to navigate through the multitude of both the helpful and harmful options available.

The original poster wanted advice on what types of doctors to seek out, and what treatments were available - all of this AFTER seeking a medical opinion and being told there was "no other alternative". Why is it that you are inclined to shoot down the very advice these people are asking for simply because you don't agree with it. Why not allow the original poster to make their own decision for their own child, based on ALL of the information presented?


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

I think the point (or one of them) here is that you (or anyone) can come up with a 1,000 'alternatives' to a problem of any kind, but if none of them are proven to work, and one works just about every single time, who's wearing the blinders? There is a place for pursuing other avenues for answers when nothing has been shown to work, and/or someone is dying (or at least suffering) from a problem that hasn't responded to anything yet (and the diagnosis may be in question to begin with), but beating a dead horse on principal because you can is pretty dumb as far as I'm concerned. What works is adenoidectomy. Period. What also works is antibiotics and tubes for inner ear infections that every second kid under 5 seems to get routinely, and what doesn't work, and often (at best) delays proper treatment, and at worst actually makes things worse, is a slew of unproven, testimonial/word of mouth based, untested and inconsistently formulated herbal and/or other alternative 'cures'. It's soo time to get past this and go on to something else!


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Lucy,
Has anybody questioned that tubes or adenoidectomy will work at eliminating symptoms some of the time? What has been the crux of many debates here is that people have been looking for ALTERNATIVES to this from day one. Thurstjo had success with her daughters case. Because you and eric oh don't believe homeopathy works for this doesn't change the outcome of success. Should thurstjo's daughter go ahead and have tubes inserted and have the adenoids removed because you and eric oh don't believe her avenue has solved the problem? It sure seems to me that you and eric oh have been beating a dead horse on YOUR principals. Bottom line - you and eric oh sure seem to think any opinion on this subject that doesn't parallel yours is plain wrong. Blinders are worn by whom?

This is from the J Am Board Fam Pract 14(6):474-476, 2001
© 2001 American Board of Family Practice

There have been numerous studies in the medical literature reporting the ineffectiveness of antibiotics as treatment for ear infections

Recent evidence has thrown into question the use of antibiotics and the length of treatment, if prescribed. The growing worldwide development of multidrug-resistant bacteria, the uncertainty of diagnosis, and that up to one third of cases of AOM are viral in origin 12 have made popular a wait-and-see approach to the initial prescription of antibiotics, especially in many European countries. In several randomized clinical trials, antibiotics provided only a small benefit. 13-15 In a meta-analysis of more than 2000 children with AOM, ear pain resolved spontaneously without antibiotics in two thirds by 24 hours and in 80% by day 7.

More raw data - Tympanostomy tube insertion is the first choice for surgical intervention. Approximately 20 - 50% of children who undergo this procedure may have OME relapse and require additional surgery. (Univ of Maryland Medical Center)

So, up to 50% of the time, ear infection with fluid re-occurs. Effectiveness of your preferred method sure is questionable here.

Since a good deal of infections are viral, lucy, antibiotics are useless. If they are bacterial, the bacteria may die from the antibiotics, unless of course the bacteria have become resistant from the overuse of antibiotics for many years.

Maybe you and eric oh should think about dismounting from the medical high horse and understand your type of mainstream medical thinking just isn't as popular as you may think it is here on gardenweb.com

I agree to disagree - let's get past this and move on.


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

So are you saying we should surgically remove the portion of the immune system that is working the hardest to eliminate the root cause of the problem and ignore said cause of the problem, hoping no further symptoms appear?


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RE: My child has enlarged adenoids

Hi Joshua, I'm sure by now you have come to a conclusion on how to treat your child's problems, but in case you haven't, I wanted to post my experience with this situation. My 2 yr old daughter just had her tubes, tonsils and adenoids done.
I, like you, would rather treat health issues in a homeopathic way, so I did some research. I found out quit a bit on the subject.
First, I found out that ear infections are one of the most common symptoms of enlarged adenoids. Other symptoms are snoring, sinus infections, and obstructive sleep apnea. (Central sleep apnea has nothing to do with adenoids and is caused by the brain malfunctioning.)
Next, I found that there have been numerous studies done proving that, although our tonsils and adenoids are a part of our immune system, they actually play little to no part in actually "fighting" infection, and when removed have little or no impact on the way our body fights infection. In my experience, I have found that antibiotics cause more damage to our bodies than this somewhat minor surgery does. My oldest daughter suffered from "unknown" infections (possibly throat and/or sinus?), and was treated with antibiotics alot when she was younger. As a result, her teeth are de-calcified and without any enamel! Another issue we have found with her being prescribed antibiotics, is that her body, over the years, has become overrun with yeast and fungus, which, (if you do some in-depth research)causes ADHD symptoms! We are currently trying to regain her bodies natural state of harmony by getting rid of the yeast and fungus, but its a long hard road! After her adeniod/tonsilectomy she hasn't had any more "infections".
Like you I wondered if there was a homeopathic or nutritional "cure" to this problem. I researched natural anti-inflammatories (fish oil and vitamin E,etc.)to reduce swelling and immune boosters (vitamin C, etc.)to prevent infection. I used them on my younger daughter and found only little improvement. I also tried to restrict problematic foods like gluten and milk. Gluten restriction showed little improvement in her overall health but milk restriction showed a tremendous improvement! I wanted learn why this was and if restricting milk was going to cause health issues like bone growth and tooth disease. What I found out alarmed me!
First, children stop producing the enzyme required to break down HUMAN milk between ages 2-3, which could be why more children at this age develop ear infections. Next, I found out that ONLY bovine calves produce an enzyme to break down cows milk to get the calcium and vitamin D out of it and that no matter how hard our bodies try we CANNOT break down and use cows milk as a source of vitamin D or calcium. In fact, by drinking cows milk we actually deplete our bodies of this and are better off receiving it from green leafy vegetables. Also, saturated fats and hormones received by cows milk/dairy products actually cause inflammation and increased mucus production in our bodies, thus possibly contributing to enlarged adenoids and tonsils. (If you get a chance read "The China Study" and "Perfect Health: The Natural Way", very informative!)
Finally, I found that some children, like mine, are just genetically predisposed to enlarged adenoids and tonsils. In these cases, you can try all you want, but the size of these glands will only increase as will the problems associated with them. As in my younger daughters case, removal was really the only way to correct her problems. I tried all of these things and researched everything I could possibly think of in order to help her, but I realized, this is just one of the many issues we are going to have to deal with because of her genetic/metabolic disorder.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you have tried other avenues like restricting dairy with no prevail and if the majority of research points toward the removal being a success, why make your child suffer through the pain of infections? If there's even a small possibility of a permanent solution, why not do it?


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