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Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavior

Posted by purpleinopp 8b AL (My Page) on
Fri, Jun 8, 12 at 12:06

After a few years of allowing heart leaf Philodendron to climb up and be wound a couple feet up a Dracaena tree trunk, it started making much bigger leaves. Although I really wanted to continue this situation and monitor the "maturity," this pot got blown around a few times and the trunk most of the vine was growing on was damaged and lost, I had to trim a lot of the vine away to get control over this pot while repotting, so it's kind of starting over. I've been keeping it more controlled the past year, so I can leave the more mature parts during the next repot. There are still a few of the old roots that go various amounts of inches down from the vine to the soil, and many new ones are making their descent.

Most Philos are epiphiteic or hemiepiphetic, a small number are terrestrial. I'm still not sure which type heart-leaf is, and there seems to be several almost identical plants, or synonyms, not sure. So not sure which my plant is, or that the discrepancies would matter in regard to which type it is.

"Secondary hemiepiphytes don't always start their lives close to a tree. For these philodendrons, what happens is that the plant will grow with long internodes along the ground until a tree is found. They find a suitable tree by means of growing towards darker areas such as the dark shadow of a tree. This trait is called scototropism. After a tree has been found, the scototropic behavior stops and the philodendron switches to a phototropic growth habit and the internodes shorten and thicken. Usually, however, philodendrons germinate on trees." - Wiki Philodendron article.

What? Germinate? Anyone ever have HL Philo flowers? Other Philo flowers? I know they look like Caladium or peace lily flowers but have never seen one in person.

Just like Monsteras, this sentence in the Wiki entry for Monstera deliciosa, "Wild seedlings grow towards the darkest area they can find until they find a tree trunk, then start to grow up towards the light, creeping up the tree." Never had one of these, they're always expensive. How strange, plants growing AWAY from the light. Makes sense though if the mission is to find a trunk to climb. Fascinating. Anyone noticed this? I move plants way too often to notice this from Philos.

Thought I knew about Syngoniums until I read the other day how they change dramatically upon maturity, changing leaf shape AND type! Not clear if dangling would induce this, or if it needs to be supported climbing? Who has a plant like this?

Then there's Hedera helix which also is supposed to completely change leaves if it makes it to the top of a tree in the right climate. Anyone ever have a potted specimen that "changed into maturity?"

Someone posted pic of an older Pothos on a support earlier this week and I noticed now big the leaves were on it. Made me wonder if being on the support was the reason for the exceptionally big leaves. Seems like similar stuff.

I'm going to start doing more with growing this stuff UP instead of dangling down. Please share your thoughts and experiences in this realm.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Hi Purple,

When I first saw Philodendron (scandens/heart-shape) and Pothos growing upright, actually on trunks of palm trees,(conservatory) their huge leaves drew my attention. I thought both were different species.

Long ago I read, 'plant book,' growing either plant upright, staked, will produce larger leaves. It was then I realized these two plants were not different species. A light bulb popped in my head. lol, but I was was unsuccessful growing either staked.

Most of the time, the stake would fall out of soil.

That darn wind! :) How much larger did Philo leaves get opposed to average size...hanging?

HD sometimes sells Pothos on a foot-long piece of bark. Leaves are approximately 3-5 times larger, but, unless the vine is constantly trimmed to the height of the bark, where would it go? Only option is to unwind the vine, and replace w/taller bark.

Don't know if Pothos are terrestrial or hemiepiphyte. Good question.

I had a Monstera, 'Split-Leaf,' that flowered once, but never produced fruit. Flowers are insigificant, 'looks', but I was very very happy!
Yep, flowers resembled Peace Lily.

Nope, can't say I ever had/noticed a plant heading opposite light.
Normally, lower light plants, 'ferns,' wilt, instead of turning away from sun.

There was a discussion about plants changing shape, here on House Plant Forum a couple months ago.
The plant mentioned was Hedera/Ivy.
Didn't know Syngoniums changed, too. Wonder what they look like??

What will you use to grow upright? Toni


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Crap, oops, sorry, I messed up the Syngonium link above. Trying again.

The Philo leaves were twice as big as the others, about 7".

I plan to use a lot of things as supports, whatever's handy... tomato cage comes to mind, maybe painted green, since I have some already.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I allowed a piece of "Golden Pothos" to grow up my Podocarpus bush. Foliage is now about 1' x 1.5'.
Randy

Here is a link that might be useful: Climber


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

My Philodendron squamiferum & Philodendron 69686 have both flowered. Nothing much to say about them, a typical aroid spathe. I have read that philodendron scandens (Heart Leafs) are a sterile species and don't flower but I don't know if that's true or not.

Philodendron scandens (heart-shape) and Pothos (Epipremnum aureum) are not the same speicies but E aureum is sometimes sold as a heart leaf Philo. All Philodendrons are native to the new world and Epipremnum are native to the south pacific and asia. they are more closely related to Monstera then to Philodendron. Epipremnum are considered epiphytes.

Almost all aroids change from their juvenile form to a mature form as they grow. The leaves grow larger and many also change shape. Often they change so much that many have been misidentified in the juvenile form which is part of the reason that many aroids are known by more then one name. If you keep pruning new growth off of the plant they will not grow into a mature from. If you can get a cutting of mature growth and root it, it will usually continue in the mature from

Syngonium will also change as they mature but most of the time people don't give them something to climb so they stay small. They usually look similar to Philodendrons as they get larger.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Randy, that's awesome! Love the color of those leaves. Can you take another pic with something in it for scale?

dellis, thanks for the interesting info. I used to have a Syngonium that hung down a few feet but never changed leaves. It faded away in a dark apartment unfortunately.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Here you go. Was in a hurry due to rain. Notice the new foliage is trying to revert.

Randy

Image Hosting by PictureTrail.com


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Here is a picture of my 'Marble Queen' pothos before the hard freeze of Dec. 2009. It was over 20 ft. up the pecan tree. The Monstera had just started to climb.

Jim


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I've several Golden Pothos which are 15 to 20 metres up in the trees. They have huge leaves and send down long runners to the ground. These runners then go across the ground to other trees which they begin to climb. They do take over.

Syngonium is a bit of a curse. You can't get rid of it and it just smothers trees. The juvenile leaves are pretty much heart shaped but the mature leaves are palmate. When you try to clear an area of syngonium any bits of root that get left behind grow into new plants. That's what makes them so impossible to get rid of. That and the fact if you throw them in the compost they just keep growing. I put them in bags in a deep freeze for about a week (just to make sure).

Many philos are vining epiphytes and not too rampant. I have P. lacerum which grows fairly large and looks nice in trees without really smothering them. Another is P. erubescens Red Emerald. Epipremnum pinnatum is another good one that climbs well without becoming too over bearing. There's quite a lot out there.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Sigh. Tropicbreeze, I fantasize about living in a place where "house plants" need to be controlled from taking over...! Probably not as exiting as it sounds, though, just sounds like more fun than seeing what a little vine might do on a tomato cage!

Randy, that's incredible, what a beautiful leaf! Love the color!

bossjim, that's one of the prettiest spots I've ever seen in TX! And what a vine - wow!

Thanks to you both for sharing these pics!

Found another page with interesting info & great pics of Syngoniums from Australian government.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Beautiful plant pics. What a difference between growing in a pot opposed to climbing a tree, outdoors. I'm green. lol.

Purple, I guess we'd have to move further south, way further for me, lol, before growing Pothos/Philos like those in Fl. Boo hoo. :)

Do all viney Philodendron grow larger leaves when climbing a tree, etc?

Randi, is the leaf you're holding a Golden Pothos?
Your garden is lovely. I like the idea of brick opposed to grass. Much neater, less chance of insects, 'eg, ANTS,' and no mowing. lol. Terrific. Toni


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Every day I see loads of Hedera helix in its mature form, mainly on the sidewalls of the freeway. It can look very different--in some cases I thought it was a different plant entirely until I took a closer look.

It depends primarily on available sunlight and age, but if growing below trees will behave more or less as you've described in Philodendron (I don't know about scototropism, but I wouldn't be shocked if it does home in on trees, given that it's known for destroying them in some areas).

From this to this

Here is a link that might be useful: County H. helix page


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Interesting pics, hex. Pics on the WWW are about as close as I want to get to that ivy except the pretty variegated one in a pot. (Yes, I'm mentally scheming about what it can grow UP instead of dangle down...)

This vine used to be mostly on a different, larger trunk. After a drastic repot last spring and loss of that trunk this winter, this is the climbing situation at present.

The smallest, original-size leaves (but of course not the actual same leaves still on the plant after 17 years!) are still around.

The current largest leaves.

This particular philo doesn't use this tree in any way except for support, and I have to guide the vines to go higher. Some of the older aerial roots were almost 3 feet from where they left the vine down to the soil.

I don't know if one could obtain maturity on such a short support, or any support of a small enough size to be brought inside for winter, or for what plants, or if I won't accidentally break something in a bad place trying to repot in the future... But the bigGER leaves are cool, if that's all that happens, and finding out by doing sounds like a blast. The pics & anecdotes are inspiring too!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Yep it's a "Golden Pothos". Proper name is Epipremnum aureum (Scindapsis) aurea.

Randy


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Well this discussion (and repotting/trimming the tree my vine was growing with) has inspired me to see what happens to this Philo like this:

There's still a bucket'o'vines that I haven't got anywhere to put at the moment.

When I started unwinding and untangling this, it was like it was multiplying in my hands. It took a couple hours to sort it all out, then select the pieces with the biggest leaves to put in the above pots. There was a surprisingly, shockingly TINY amount of roots supporting all of the foliage.

Also snapped some pics of sweet potato vine's different leaves. The first two are from plants in the ground that came back from last year. The third pic is from a cutting taken last Nov and overwintered. Interestingly, both indoor and outdoor plants started by growing heart-shaped leaves this spring, but 2-4x as big on the outdoor plants.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Sweet Potatoes, Ipomoea batatas, come in a range of leaf shapes and colours. Green, of course, but also black/purple and yellow. The yellow is often used in street/park plantings.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Here's yesterday's new experiment with giving a Philo ('Micans' from EA in this case) something to climb on. Obviously this is a tiny little guy, just got it. Small enough to use one of the shelves from the broken cart mentioned above, bent into kind of a square.

Would love to see any vine plants out there growing on supports of any type.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

In the first episode of the seriously watchable Private Life of Plants, David Attenborough shows us a monstera fruit falling to the ground from up high. Then seeds germinate and the plant grows along the ground, just a pale stem with a tiny tip. If after say 6 feet it hasnt found a tree it dies. But if its lucky it changes behaviour and starts to grow up the tree (Geotropism takes over)
Then the first leaf opens and the plant can begin to make food for itself, and up it goes. To start with the leaves are simple, pothos like, but eventually they take on the form we know and love.
Fascinating!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

As I thought the first time I read that, I think so after reading it again today, agreed, Larry, fascinating!

This Philo has started dropping aerial roots really fast since being wound around this support a few months ago. I've got to find something taller next spring, ceilings in here are 8 ft...


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Hex..don't know if you're around..in the link you posted, it looks like Ivy flowered.
Do Hedera's bloom?

Purple...your Philo is green, healthy and tall. What will you use next spring when it's taller?

There's difference size plastic, bamboo or moss poles to consider.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Bamboo is a great idea. That stuff's everywhere, and I think there's a few canes laying by the back fence that I'd forgotten about. No reason to wait until spring to stick a few in the pot. Obviously if I snag some, the statute of limitations for making fishing poles out of those has expired. Haha!

Yes, mature ivy blooms. That's why it's invasive.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Staked vines continue to go crazy inside. This one has attached itself to the wall.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile

The aerial root in the middle is the one that's stuck on the wall. I think it's helped by resting itself on the door jamb.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

What a great thread--lots of information and beautiful, inspiring pictures. Purple, that's a cool update (if in a slightly scary, feed-me-Seymor kind of way ;) ). Will you leave the root attached to the wall?

I've wondered, for a while, now, what, exactly, causes vining aroids to "mature." Is it the direction (growing UP vs. growing in a level or downward direction), or is it the formation of aerial roots and the additional moisture and nutrients these provide? (Or a combination of growth direction and aerial-root formation, or something else?) Do those of you who grow these in containers, as houseplants, see larger leaves just by growing the plants up a support, or do your plants all have aerial roots, as well, that rooted into the support or into the ground?

I live in a place that has cathedral ceilings with north-facing skylights. I dream about getting some really tall poles or supports (that's challenge #1--where to find or build something like that, and get it home/into my living space) and growing various aroids up to my ceiling. Other challenges: how to maintain such an arrangement. I live in the middle of the city and a lot of dust and stuff blows in my windows. I don't know how I'd clean the leaves of plants growing 15 ft up. And repotting...?

The farthest I've gone with this vision is to grow Philo 'Bloody Mary' on my open staircase. I placed the pot at the top of the staircase and the plant's growing downward, not very enthusiastically, though. After reading this thread, I got the idea to put the pot on the floor and tie the vines UP the railings. We'll see what happens.

I'd love to know how much--if any--damage those roots would do to an interior wall (she said with a dangerous gleam in her eye...that would be easier to maintain than a plant on a giant totem...)

Having finally, after several failed attempts, managed to root some cuttings of my Scindapsus pictus, I want to try them on a totem since this plant is a "shingler."

Amanda


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Occasionally these vines will attach to the outside walls during the summer and the spots they leave are visible but I wouldn't say it damaged the wall. But I've never left one where it shouldn't be for longer than a couple months, and am only speaking for this particular heart-leaf Philo.

I'm not going to leave that root or plant there, should be going outside in a couple weeks. I've been watching it, it's done that within the past week. If I wasn't too lazy to get a chair so I could reach it and loop it back down, it wouldn't be creeping toward the door. Smart plant, wants to get back outside.

If you had a big bad vine attached to stuff, I think you could repot it in place. It would just take 2 people, one to hold the plant up a bit while the other knocks off the old soil and slides the new pot under it. Love your plan to grow UP the stairs instead of down. Makes sense for a plant to be more enthusiastic about its' chances of reaching a treetop, so more vigorous about growing up. That's why, I think, the dangling Pothos never make bigger leaves. There are pics of Pothos on moss poles only 3-4 ft. tall with much bigger leaves than a regular hanging plant.

Not sure the same triggers are required for all vines to produce mature leaves. May not be possible for all vines "in captivity." I do know that attaching to the tiny trunk of a Dracaena tree for a few years caused heart-leaf Philo to make MUCH bigger leaves. Not even sure if that's all this Philo can do. Sure is fun to watch it though.

Toni, your bamboo idea is super! There are several canes laying by the fence, about 10-12 feet I think. Just need to make short enough to fit inside. Awesome idea.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

So you're not gonna let the philo take the wall...hmmmmm...if I may suggest giving it something else to secure itself to in place of the wall. Perhaps a peice of plywood or something that you could hang from a nail. I can assure you that the growth that occurs beyond that point will be much larger.

Keep us informed please!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Amanda;
Most Vineing Aroids will grow in their juvenile form until they can grow upwards for a while. They are looking for light, in nature they tend to germinate in shaded places and as they grow they usually first grow towards darkness as in the base of a tree and then climb up. As they grow the leaves will take on the mature form get larger and when they get to a location with suitable light they will start really getting big. Sometimes 3 or 4 feet across or more.

The aerial roots do hold the plants to whatever they're climbing and do provide nutrients to the upper portions of the plant, whether they are necessary for mature growth though? I'm not sure, I've seen very large epiprenums and philodendrons attached to concrete with only a few roots reaching the soil. Some people cut them off but I train them down to the soil.

Danny


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Asleep, although I can't describe how anxious I am to see those big leaves, everybody has to go outside for summer because I just can't stand dealing with them inside non-stop. The 5-gallon bucket will hopefully allow this plant to go for a few years without disturbance, at least at the roots. I love your plywood idea though, generally, the idea of something bigger, fatter than bamboo. The oak branches and little white wire thing are already completely overwhelmed.

Really hope asarumgreenpanda does her experiment and stays in touch with updates, I'm all ate up with anxious expectations now. Hey, forgot to say yesterday, let me know if you need some material. I have at least half a dozen pots of this stuff besides the 2 really big climbing experiment ones.

Found another of these vines in a hanging basket attached to the wall this morning too. Spring, please get here soon, this is starting to creep me out...

Now to get Pothos and Syngonium going like this...


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Asleep, that's a great idea. You made me think of cork boards, as well. I'll look for something like that to hang on the wall and grow aroids on.

Danny, thank you for the information, on this and other threads. Your pictures are truly inspiring--beautiful plants and such an inviting jungle.

If I had more space, I'd try an experiment, growing several plants and treating the aerial roots on each in a different manner. Not enough room here, though.

Purple, your plants look like they're ready to take over the world--how wonderful.Thanks so much for the offer of material. It's too cold here, still. (In fact, I feel like your vines, climbing the walls in my eagerness for spring.) I'd be happy to trade things in a couple of months.

But, um, *which* experiment? I dream up at least one each hour during winter. :) I appreciate the encouragement, in any case.

Here's day one of one experiment. I chopped off about 1/2 of this Philo 'Bloody Mary' (at least I believe that's what it is) and twist-tied it to my stair railing. Looks a straggly mess, I know. I'm hoping to be able to post some good 'after' pictures.

I potted up most of the 'Bloody Mary' cuttings, and stuck them, as well as a pot of P. 'Pink Princess' cuttings, on the other corner of the newel post in the photo. I'll get them twist-tied up the railings as they grow--or that's my plan.

I did not mean to take over your thread, Purple, and can start another one, if you think that would be better.

Amanda


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Ahhhh yes! CORKBOARD!!
Precisely the idea!
Amanda,..that would look much cooler than a shoddy ole piece of plywood!
Good thinking!

Anyhoo purp,the idea was that you would be able to take the plant outside board and all...not too sure how well I communicated that. :)


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Ooh, take the board outside. Well, duh, you probably did communicate that, not your fault if I'm having a senior moment. Cork board is a great idea. Do we still have that stuff around (from the 70's?) LOL!

Amanda, I love your contribution! Of course you can start another thread if you want, but hope you'll post updates here too. This is exactly the kind of experiment I was hoping people would discuss and be inspired to try, although I didn't expect to be so jealous of an INDOOR space. Awesome space, experiment, plant!!

Philo 'Micans' baby is slowly getting started up this tiny home-made trellis. ("Before pic" is upthread, Oct. 19 '12.)


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I don't think this Callisia is technically a vine, really a ground cover, but treating it like a vine is making it start to go nuts. Started winding it about a month ago and don't know if the pic shows it yet or not, but almost every node is starting to send a new shoot. It absolutely does not do that so fast (if at all) on the surface or dangling. Apparently it really "likes" this. (Shown with Easter cactus "blooms," finished opening but still pretty hanging there...)


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

  • Posted by dsws none (My Page) on
    Thu, Feb 14, 13 at 16:05

I have my vine (called a philodendron by the person who gave it to me, but I think it's actually epipremnum) just starting up some cheap lath from Home Depot. If it does well, I imagine having a wall-in-front-of-the-wall all made of lath.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Oh! Isn't this thread fun? So I'm currently rooting my new philo cuttings and deciding where new and old will start to go. I want to grow up as well. I want bigger leaves!

I also want a monstera deliciosa and a monstera obliqua to fall out of the sky into my lap, but I guess we don't always get what we want.

I love the idea of covering the walls with philos. i imagine it would take many years, but with a lattice or some kind of form you could totally do it. Then wall of foliage could be inside.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

These small Philos are just one of those plants that want to stay alive. I have one that I do everything wrong with.

it's in a 4 liter bucket and I water it once a week with a liter of water and you can see by the stains, I just let it evaporate without draining it but I believe it is using most of the water since it is gone within a day or two, faster than water just sitting out usually evaporates.

It also is on a shelf that is directly over a kiln that runs between 1000f and 1500f a day or two a week so every now and then it gets a little cooked. Most of the vines are between 6 and 8 feet long but a couple are around 12 feet long. The leaves are rarely over 2-1/2 -3-1/2", Maybe once it is grow up the windows it'll grow bigger leaves.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Purple, I've never seen Callisia grow like that. Amazing. I'm also looking forward to seeing epipremnum-lattice walls, and hearing updates. Great idea, dsws. And Julianna, let us know when it starts raining aroids! :) I'll be along with a bucket to collect a few. Danny, I agree about the little philos. I have one in my office that seems to thrive against all odds. Yours adds so much to that studio area. What a refreshing picture.

I found an older thread with some inspiring photos and information from Steve Lucas:

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Golden pothos' thread


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I will! The moment it starts raining aroids, I am sure quite a few of us will be out! The other option is free gifts from the nurseries. That is my other magical hope. LOL! If only there was some for trade. Hope springs eternal!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

  • Posted by dsws none (My Page) on
    Fri, Feb 15, 13 at 16:34

I'm pretty sure it's been posted in other threads, but exotic rainforest has a nice page showing mature pothos (epipremnum) leaves.

Here is a link that might be useful: Exotic Rainforest pothos page


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Nice! I'm getting more and more excited about this. haha!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio


fascinating article, thanks! of course, i have a golden pothos , is there anybody who doesn't? mine been going on for 16 years now - with repeated cutting of course. i thought it was best to start with new stems. now i'm going to save the old stubs in a sep control pot to see if leaves will get larger.
so another experiment: one has rooted in my ficus lyrata and is a few feet by now looping in the pot - i prompty hooked it around the trunk up. now the leaves are about 4.5" . i'd love to see if they increase in a year!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Petrushka, I"d love to see a picture of the golden pothos in your F. lyrata.

So, I went cork hunting today. I found quite a few options--cork tiles (made to put on a wall), a 2'x4' roll of the stuff, little 8" square trivets that I'll also attach to the wall. I'm excited to try this experiment. Because I'm sort-of commitment-phobic when it comes to permanent accessorizing--I like to be able to move things around--I decided to attach the cork to the walls with strong velcro. That way, I can take them down if I need to, or move them slightly if I want to repot to a larger pot. I hope that will work.

Now I'm placing aroids along the walls. I decided which wall to grow my 'Pink Princess' Philo on, and I I've settled a big 'Marble Queen' Epipremnum. There are a bunch of others...I'll take pictures when I figure it out and get everybody placed.

Amanda


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

This place has all kinds of cork, They even have sheets of natural cork bark.

http://www.corkstore.com/

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.corkstore.com/

This post was edited by dellis326 on Sat, Feb 16, 13 at 21:27


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Oh, Amanda, I am looking forward to those pics! I actually was Epipremnum-free for the past few years (not by choice). Purple graciously sent me some Epipremnum aureum it looks like. Very nice! I am hoping to get some marble queen eventually. You could also attach plywood to the wall and the cork to the wood-- like a vertical garden.

Oh and this would be another option. I ran across this link the other day.

Here is a link that might be useful: plant wall


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Some time ago I did a thread on how rampant and large Golden Pothos can get.: You might find that interesting.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pothos,


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

And another I did on other vining aroids, also including Golden Pothos.

Here is a link that might be useful: No rambling roses here


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Wow, there are some amazing cork options--and that is quite a hydro-wall. Thanks, Danny and Julianna. I'm not at that level of commitment, yet, but it's all inspiring.

Tropicbreeze, your photos are always a treat; thanks for linking to the threads. I especially loved the P. erubescens--that's one of my favorite plants--and the P. tenue--another of my favorites.

I am wondering how much depth I should allow for my Monstera deliciosa. In other words, if it climbs up cork attached to a wall, how much will it stick out from the wall, do you think?

Amanda


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I remember an epi that I had seen years ago that had fallen off someone's porch and had snuck up on a tree and had gone to climbing it without being noticed for quite a while by the looks of it. It had managed to get about a dozen feet up and the leaves looked to have gotten maybe a little more than a foot in diameter.

Meanwhile the ones in my room have required a redirect when I caught them trying to grab hold of the walls. Tempting as it is to let them have their way or provide tghem with a support I instead sent them back across the fishing lines,chains,wire hooks,etc that sprawl the ceiling area. Once I get a camera that will do the job well enough to do it justice I will have to post pics.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Yes, I have caught more Philo vines stuck to the wall. Fascinating reading about everyone's ideas and projects!!!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Yes! The beginnings of an indoor forest!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

  • Posted by dsws none (My Page) on
    Sun, Feb 24, 13 at 20:38

If I were putting cork on a wall, I would worry about moisture and mold behind the cork. I don't know whether it's an actual problem or not, though.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

That is why at minimum, i'd actually mount it to something else and then mount that something else to the wall with spacers to leave an air space.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

amanda my GP strand winding on ficus is so obscured by big ficus leaves - there is nothing to see. now, if it grows a large leaf suddenly, i'll post:).
i searched for some pics of GP in the pot on a bark where you can see the leaf size increase. found this.
now i wonder, would this happen in sub-tropical/commercial conditions/deep south? or can i get smth like this by positioning it in western window?


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

That plant has been sculpted, they don't grow that way on their own. A west window may be too intense for a pothos.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

well, i put it in spring for a couple of months 3 ' from western window, on the northern side - so it would get lowest western light. and then in summer moved 7 ' from the window, same side. it simulates dapled light in my estimation - i have 9' fl to ceiling windows - 10' wide . so lots of light, but the neighboring hi-rises interfere, so it's not continuous. GP just loved it. i am planning to revitalise 2 more plants this way.
what do you mean by sculpted? and how is it done?


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

dellis, i am not sure if you read all the posts above, i looked thru a lot of info on the web too. all indicates that when you put GP on a post to climb, it increases leaf size very quickly. purple posted a link to older thread - where smbody had it only on a 12" stake and leaf size increased to 8".
so then it would seem that 'they do grow this way' and it is possible to grow 4' totem with much larger leaves on top.
i am looking into setting up a pole. found this in uk :
http://www.johnstowngardencentre.ie/moss-pole-plant-supports/mosspolepd.aspx
i think i can easily make it from pvc tube and sheeted cocofiber stapled to form a tube. then you can also extend it later with another tube. or wire 2-3 tubes together.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

petrushka: I was referring to the density of the plant pictured from your link, Not to the size of the leaves. Yes, they can get huge with the right conditions. This one pictured must have many vines wrapped around the post. It would depend on what the post is made like but if you keep tying the vines around it, they will either root into it or need to be tied to it (or tied until rooted) you will get that sort of density but usually you'll have more vine and roots showing through the leaves.

I like your idea using a PVC tube but that stuff might be hard to staple through. You might find it easier to glue it on with aquarium cement or tie it with a black nylon cord.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

but of course i would wrap/train many vines not just one to wind around. i stuff as many vines as would fit in a pot. i read that 15-35 is common.
i already figured out how to staple: cut a piece of cocofiber to overlap by an inch around pole. then with utility knife cut a line of about 1.5" -2"cuts vertically .5 " of long edge. wrap cocomat around pole, holding with lowtack tape cut edge on top. then pushing the reg office stapler thru cut opening and catching both edges in stapler - shoot the staple or two. go along thru the length of the pole. i think matting does not have to be that tight, it's stiff and wont' slide anyway. i am thinking now how to stabilize sev poles together :). may be with pvc joints. and cutting poles at 6" staggered heights for a pretty look and also so i can lengthen them later inobtrusively and to maintain strength.
think, you can set up the whole sculpture flat or not and secure it the wall even for philos. or screw in two large hooks into the ceiling , make a ladder like structure, hang it on hooks.the plant will have to be on a stand so you could pop it out of the pot for xplanting and have room on the bottom to work.
whaddayah think of that?
am thinking a narrow tripod of long bamboo stakes could be wrapped with cocomat too, and inserted in the pot .
i take it would be best if roots have smth to latch on to, some fiber that you can spray with fertilizer solution and keep moist.
not just a hard stake/pole/ladder/etc.
i want those huge leaves! at least an 8"! 12" would be really exciting.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

So I've been thinking about it, and I have a space on the other side of some book shelves in an alcove that I am thinking about dropping a long/big/maybe just big pot and planting my various aroids in it for climbing. It's by a north window. At the moment, my aroids are in the window area, doing great. But they would have this whole wall to cover a few feet back from the window until it became too dim. It could be an experiment. I'm really wanting to spur some mature growth.

Has anyone done well with getting mature leaf form inside?


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Hey all

Quick question:
Anyone here actually know just how big the philo scandens leaves get once mature? Having never seen one I'm kinda in the dark here.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Hey all

Quick question:
Anyone here actually know just how big the philo scandens leaves get once mature? Having never seen one I'm kinda in the dark here.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Pics of mature forms of P. scandens/hederaceum are rare. I LOVE the pics and info on this page. This Philo is a little more than halfway down.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

That is the most awesome page! I love it! I saw my NOID philos on there too.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Thanks for that Purp! :)

They look pretty big in the pic. Kinda hard to tell just HOW big though,yaknow?


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

found this rope setup with boat cleats and hooks - might work for a trellis against the wall or on patio.
purple, you could do this on your porch with just 1 horizontal low rail or pole. and it could be removed for winter.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Fantastic! I do some of that with fishing line.

Asleep, yes, I agree.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Next big question:

Same as above only in regard to scindapsus pictus.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Wish I had some info. Never had Scindapsis until I got a few cuttings in trade very recently...


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Just imagine a pictus with enormous leaves.

Makes me all tingly! lol


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I have smth interesting to report: old stub branched like crasy on small rooted cutting of 'golden pothos'.
so when we discussed how 'golden pothos' likes to be staked and increases it's leaf size, I actually tied up an old cane with only 2 leaves that I was trying to revive to a bamboo skewer back in end of feb. and forgot about it. now I was shuffling stuff around and saw that it sprouted like 7 BUDS, 3 of which are unfurling the small leaves - so that is about 2 months in warm dappled western sunlight. very small plant. but this is the first time that I managed to branch a stub in such a multitude!. usually it's just a leaf on the end, and may be it branches once. I used to throw out all old stubs when I replant and just root the ends.
now I am starting to THINK!
already tied up sev branches to skewers and now will wait to see if that was just a fluke, or plant really reacts this way!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

it happened again. a month ago I stuck 6 long wooden skewers in a pot with anemic golden pothos that had old canes and sparse leaves. bound them chain-like on top with rubber elastics and used wire strips to attach canes to it - just barely 8" on the bottom. and it's happening again: canes sprouted multiple shoots on the bottom!
so when you have an old plant - cut canes to 1 foot and bind them to stakes - in sev weeks they should sprout multiple branches. it's a nice way to rejuve the plant without having to repot. also this should produce bigger leaves eventually.
now I took my robust hanging golden pothos in 1 gal nursery pot (about 16 canes in there) and created a pole structure with bamboo stakes. it's 3 feet high. it looked pretty good hanging, but of course I stripped quite a lot of leaves while handling it.
now I want to see if it'll thicken up by the end of summer.
I also trimmed all the ends of canes.
this is what it looks like now: it will be getting sev hours of early morning light all summer.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Here's a GP runner that's dropped about 10 to12 metres without touching ground but it's still trying to reach across to the next tree.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Petrushka-- exciting! I hope you get the bigger leaves!

Tropicbreezent-- very cool!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Me too, Petruska! I'll post pics of Pothos (Epipremnum) soon.

After a year, these trellised vines are filling in solidly (from guiding vines up/down/in/out.) I've trimmed many pieces off to share with others also.

5-gallon bucket pot with metal trellis and oak branches.

Other, smaller pot.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

purple did you notice leaves getting bigger on top?
my canes are uneven, one or two are old and fat - they have 6" leaves (and they seem to be getting bigger), while others are just 4".
I am thinking of doing the following:
cut a long fat cane with biggest leaves (6"), curl it on a circle sev times and root in sep pot all by itself: it should then start sprouting new branches all over. then i'll train it vertically on stakes. I hope since the older leaves are big, all the new ones will be bigger too.
what do you think?
my column is filling in - got some big leaves there too. am thinking of pulling the stakes and untangling it. want to wrap cocofiber matting around stakes. i'll then attach canes on the outside with butterfly (orchid) clips to the canes - so I don't have to wind them around poles. then I can mist the whole thing and canes should grow roots into cocomat.
and get big fat leaves!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Here's an update on the 2 tiny trellis vines. The Brasil seems a happier plant in general, at least with my care, and I've taken cuttings of both to share, so they may not have increased in size to what some might expect. The Micans always seems sunburned or pale, going to try dappled light under a tree for it next summer. Strange little vine.

Petruska, I've pondered your question about bigger leaves a few times. I'm starting to think lack of disturbance is a big factor, which goes against my proclivity to repot so often. For vines like these, that may be counter-productive, even if the pot is full of roots, if one's goal is bigger leaves. There were some really big leaves, comparatively, on the cuttings I used to start the bigger trellis planters last June. So far, there are no new leaves anywhere near as big as the older, original, already-big ones. Barely over a year is hardly enough time to draw any conclusions, but I'm going to NOT repot some vines as a basis for future comparison, observation. For those I don't want to disturb, I will still probably need to pull them up undisturbed and add more soil to the bottom. Otherwise, the pot will eventually be empty of anything but roots from the decomposable mix I make/use. Other than that, I want to leave some as alone as possible, at the roots. Kind of makes sense, I think. Pruning roots results in new growth, we want old growth, and vines replace lost roots constantly as needed.

Filling in - definitely. I've taken cuttings of both big pots (of regular heart-leaf Philo on trellises) many times. Even so, I'm re-winding some of them into a 3rd and 4th layer, going to the top, back to the bottom, around, back again, etc... so tangled I don't think curiosity about unwinding to see just how long will ever happen. Just trying to keep from squashing any of the leaves as I direct the vines, which would defeat the whole purpose.

You described your Pothos plan well. I do think it would work great! Not sure clips would be needed for long. Have you been able to get started yet?

Instead of putting some of the same pics twice, I just put some pics of aerial roots on some of the plants discussed here, in here.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Yaknow something Purp..?
...It occurres to me that if you were to prune just above a node that has a secure hold with it's aerials,perhaps the new growth that would start up as the new leader might just come back bigger. It's like once the plant knows it has a good hold,THAT'S when it starts to perform in the manner that is desired.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

well, i did not want to cut off my stem with largest leaves yet, but it got REALLY long and leaves ARE still big. so i coiled it midway and stuck the coils into moist sphagnum and covered with plastic. it had aerial roots already quite big. now after a few weeks they are rooted in sphagnum. i still don't want to cut it. i am going to notch the cane in a few places near nodes with growing roots and wait to see if wound will induce it to produce a new shoots from the nodes.
when i finally cut the main stem - it'll still have a good foot with half a dozen large leaves on it. then i'll be waiting to harvest more large leaves from it (IF they come).
i know, that leaves on new nodes will be small at first, but since the cane is VERY thick and oldish, they should soon get larger.
and yes, after i attached the canes to even miniature 6" stakes they started growing and getting bigger, i think. and definitely branching much better. it knows it has support!
and by the way , on that 'fat' cane the newer leaves are not that big, but they continue to grow as they mature!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Excellent experiment, Petruska, sending good vibes!! That's a way/thing I haven't done, go figure!

It seems that the fatter the stem, the bigger the leaves at that part.

Asleep, I have done some of that very recently (and if memory serves, I sent you some Philo cuttings? If so, at least one was probably pretty fat?) I think I did the cuttings around mid-late Aug, in water until packed for moving around.

This pic (which will be the 2nd one below) is from 9/15, showing the response of one fairly fat stem. Right away, a new tip *at* the closest node to cut, followed soon after by another tip at the node below. Now that there's a bit more progress, I'll have DH help me with a pic that hopefully shows the size of the leaves at the point the vine was cut, and what's coming out now.

Petruska's notion of convincing the sides to grow while the tip is still attached has me quite curious! I did cut just the newest leaf off of some tips while I was taking much longer cuttings of as much as 6 solid feet of vine. We will soon see what size offshoots start offshooting.

Uh, I don't remember what I was trying to find on google, but this pic belonging to unknown entity sure caught my attention. Gotta show this to DH, he could make that. This looks 1-sided, which it need NOT be, and also doesn't need to have just one kind of plant, or be inside, oh wow... The cords are probably for some kind of light, which looks totally unnecessary in that awesome room, but who knows what dark corner that guy is moving it to. Looks like a uniform shirt, is he the official Philo positioner, or what?


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

ROFL@ official philo positioner, Purple! That looks like an excellent set up though for a mobile screen of plants or even a permanent set up for a living room (well or outside-- like you said-- anywhere!) And I think if you had it perpendicular to a strong light source (like maybe a south-facing sliding glass door) you could rotate it and have growth on both sides. Oh that is just the best image. No idea what you were googling (maybe living walls?) but I am glad you were doing it and found that!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

LOL, girl, IKR! It made my head spin, I pasted the image URL here & closed the window, dizzy with ideas.

Really though, Philo positioner look alliterative, but Philo filler suits the ear better. Thinking Philo philosopher, Philo phyto-assurer, or Philo philanthropist would be best...?

Forgot to mention about my 'cut-results' pic I just posted, see how fast the 2nd leaf is following the 1st? A lot of them did that, I thought some were bifurcated at first.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Hmm yes, something ph-ph will be the best! I like your experiments. I never did end up making the wall of foliage, but I thought that it should wait since I'd just have to take it down. We ended up signing a 6 month lease and it looks like in May or June we'll be out which is crazyyyy.

I need to send you an e-mail. I've got some stuff for you, and I thought we could slowly work something out!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

  • Posted by dsws none (My Page) on
    Mon, Oct 7, 13 at 12:40

I had an idea the other day: get some thick polyester string, knit a tube an inch or two in diameter, and fill it with perlite. Then hang it from a ceiling or the top of a window, and run a vine up it. That way the vine can be vertical (so it thinks it's growing up a tree) and have something to root in (so it thinks it's found some nice moss and duff on top of the branches of a large tree). Water with a continuous slow drip from the top, at a rate so that a little excess water flows into a container at the bottom.

It may be that a certain length of vertical growth is what's necessary for mature leaves. (I don't actually know, of course.) If that's how it works in a particular species, let it grow to the top of the available space, chop off the bottom half, and re-hang it with a new section of perlite-tube above for it to keep growing onto. Then repeat until the vine has been growing upward for fifty meters or whatever it takes to convince it that it's climbed high enough.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

that is a pretty neat idea. i think some landscape fabric would be better to hold perlite - just sew a tube and stuff with large perlite.
may be even coir matting rolled up ? i think it wets even better. not sure which would be easier to work with . the roots would embed in it - so when you cut off the bottom, it's not a problem at all. hmm-m. but dripping water into it from the top is better with some kind of auto-drip set-up. like for a green wall. or at least in tiled room - could drip all over the floor.

This post was edited by petrushka on Mon, Oct 7, 13 at 16:04


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

  • Posted by dsws none (My Page) on
    Mon, Oct 7, 13 at 15:09

Landscape fabric sounds like an improvement: the fabric is pre-made so it's quicker and easier, and a fixed-size mesh is less likely to lose any of the perlite than stretchy knitting would be. I'm not sure which would look nicer, though.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

J, look forward to your email!

They sell rolls of various gauges of wire mesh at BBS's, hardware stores. 1/4" holes might be too big, I'd probably get 1/8", so roots could go through, perlite would stay in. It might be necessary to use paper clips, stapler, twist ties from bread bag, something to hold it in a tube, but if it comes in a roll, it would probably already really want to be in that shape anyway, not hard to handle at all.

Is the motivation behind this setup to encourage climbing, or for the nodes to grow root systems? After seeing aerial roots attach to painted walls, plaster walls, painted metal & aluminum siding, various types of dead wood, live tree trunks, this kind of effort doesn't seem to be necessary to aid vines in climbing.

Also, maybe I'm thinking a wrong way, or just not getting what was said, but if it gets cut, how will it know how far it has come?

Yada, yada... I do a lot of things other people doubt too, that often turn out really cool. So although I just expressed doubts, I'd encourage you to do that, Dsws, if it woud be enjoyable for you, and would love to see what happens from any/all experiments!

And this gives me the idea to nail a 'skirt' of pieces of this stuff around 2 mature tree trunks here, with just 1 little nail each, to make sure if the trunks keep growing wider still that they are not girdled. Interesting decorations could happen then... sweet potato or rex Begonia vine, Tradescantia zebrina and/or fluminensis could get a few feet up a trunk between frosts, cuttings of potted plants donated to yard decorating... It could also be added to porch/carport/mailbox/flag posts that are too fat/smooth for some vines to climb. Oh my... yeah!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

  • Posted by dsws none (My Page) on
    Mon, Oct 7, 13 at 20:06

"if it gets cut, how will it know how far it has come?"

For some kinds of plants (I think), it takes a certain number of phytomers before they'll be mature. If you grow them from cuttings, they remember what phytomer they were on. I think I've read that some of these vines want to flower only at the top of a very tall tree; if they're in a small tree, they want to send down shoots to go find another tree. So I speculate that they might start a counter when they start climbing, and then decrement or even reset it when they descend. So they would stay immature if you train them up and down, and then up and down again, but they would mature if you keep growing them up.

"Is the motivation behind this setup to encourage climbing, or for the nodes to grow root systems?"

It's for the nodes to grow root systems capable of absorbing all the water and nutrients the plant needs. On a huge ancient tree in a rainforest, the branches are covered with debris and epiphytes: enough soil-like stuff for quite an adequate root system. If it's climbing up some aluminum siding, I assume the roots are mostly just for support.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I suppose you can take it further and build a sculpture out of intertwining perlite tubes . and suspend it on hooks from the rafters/ceiling/tree,etc. and train sev vines on each, obscuring the tubes. sort of like strangler figs, but without the actual tree. sometimes people have columns in weird places. so these tubes could be attached around with vines twining. and some kind of circular planter around the bottom . could make a real showstopper.
and no, for now am not planning to do it;) ..but in the future I might:).


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

You know. I forgot how wonderful these plants are and how easy!

So I went out and bought a few because of you all!

Very nice plants..I love the red in your Purple!

MIke


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

  • Posted by dsws none (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 9, 13 at 10:10

One thing I want to do is let a vine grow downward for a few feet from a hanging pot, then turn it upside down, to try to see whether the new growth is affected by the current orientation of the rest of the vine, or by the orientation it grew in.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Thanks, Mike. I want to see pics of any experiments people try! Here's what's going on with these plants...

The one I mentioned attached to the siding:

I pulled the tip out from under...

The one that had 2 oak branches now has 1 oak branch. I used everything on the other branch as cuttings to share/swap recently.

The other pot has a couple Coleus at the bottom and it looks like something peed on the Alocasia. Some sunburn on the bottom leaves, the sun is really reaching far into the porch lately. In profile, you can see how compact/tightly wound it is. Fun to lay with, to keep the tips from sticking out.

Will eventually be able to compare how this burgundy Philo does as a climber vs. its' twins in a hanging pot.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

  • Posted by dsws none (My Page) on
    Fri, Oct 18, 13 at 16:06

I got a wad of Spanish moss from the dollar store, wrapped it in cloth scraps, and hung it with the bottom stuck in a cup of water. I'm hoping that either the moss of the cloth will wick water up enough to stay moist enough for roots to get some water, and convince the vine it's growing as an epiphyte: make it forget about its roots in the pot (which I assume it thinks are at ground level).


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Fascinating theory and experiment! Please let us know. Sending good vibes!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I expect that the Spanish moss will rot. Long fiber (sheet) Sphagnum moss would be a great option for this experiment.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

  • Posted by dsws none (My Page) on
    Mon, Oct 21, 13 at 12:10

I don't really expect the Spanish-moss setup to last. It's just what was handy.

Meanwhile, I just found an article saying that the mustard-family weed Arabidopsis (commonly used as an experimental plant) also has a juvenile-vs-mature difference in its leaves, and that endogenous sugar is a developmental cue. http://elife.elifesciences.org/content/2/e00269


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

  • Posted by dsws none (My Page) on
    Fri, Nov 22, 13 at 15:12

The plant shown above is getting smaller leaves, even though it's growing upward. It's starved for light. It's continuing to grow little black root-dots on its stem, whereas the cutting that's hanging down has only the pair of brownish root-beginnings at the node on its four new segments, and absolutely no visible root-dots on the internodes. The stem of the hanging one is a lot thinner, whereas stem of the one trained upward is getting slightly thinner. The new leaves of the climbing one are still variegated, but less so than the previous leaves; the new leaves of the hanging one have completely lost variegation. The oldest two leaves of the climbing one have died.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

starved for light? why don't you open the blinds then?
i rooted my monster epi vine in sphag, then notched the trunk above the node, waited a few weeks for the buds to develop and then lopped off half - about 3'? and choopped off a few segments with 1-2 leaves only. no new leaves yet.
but the bottom half has produced 2 very fat buds already that should sprout soon.
i was on vac and saw gigantic epipremnum climbing on fish-tail palms. and also just mounted on small dry-trunks in the ground. they had clearly smaller but fairly large leaves on the bottom, with 18" large split leaves on top - on only 4' of trunk! so apparently this can happen quite fast. just the vine itself needs to be mature. the ones in the palms clearly were there for years and were 1-1.5" in diameter.
so now i intend to keep growing and cutting my thickest vine to get sev. going for the totem next year.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

  • Posted by dsws none (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 23, 13 at 1:21

The blinds aren't lowered all the way to the bottom: only the highest few leaves are shaded by them. The main reason the plant is light-starved is that it's winter and the window faces a small courtyard rather than getting good sunlight. If I open the blinds any farther, I'll be looking into the window across the courtyard.

At the previous apartment I had lights on a timer. I need to dig them out of wherever I put them when we moved here.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

purple,
i keep looking at your white plastic coated metal supports for philo. what the heck is it? it has 3 sides! is it some basket? it can't be a shelf with 3 sides? very curious!
and how did you position it in the bucket? it has to be fairly solid. did you do it at repot? is it dug in deep in the pot?


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

In my very last pic is a shelf of what used to be a cart. In the pic above is one of the sides. In the last pic, the 'Brasil' was already growing on the 'trellis' and I added everything else when I repotted. About 4 'rungs' are under the soil. That 'pot' is a trash can with holes in the bottom.

Here's one that's not been bent into a column shape. They sell carts that look just like this one at WM, so that's prob where my gramma got it. It was in her house when she went to a nursing home a few years ago. I used it to sort sock doing laundry, then my son broke it, 'riding it' around the house. The pieces looked like good trellises to me, metal. I think the coating might be vinyl.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Other angle. I didn't look at the price when breezed by them at the store, but might be worth it for 2 large and 4 small trellises. You're on your own about what to do with the casters. (Planter platform-on-wheels, for easier in/out transitions?) Unassembled in a box, you wouldn't have to break yours first - LOL!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

the one that i likes looks like it was bent into a circle - this seems to be quite a useful shape, sturdy too. and could be wrapped with matting. did you bend this one?

Here is a link that might be useful: this is the one that i like most


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Yes, well DH did. It looked like pic from yesterday until he did that. I had him leave it open just enough to reach my hand in there to guide vines, remove any dead leaves/cataphylls. It is extremely sturdy, as far as a trellis goes. The wind blows hard here sometimes but those don't wiggle. My only complaint is that they are not taller. More trellises should be 'fatter,' not just poles or sticks.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Have DH bend a few more and secure 'em to something(two by four maybe?) so that one is positioned right above the next.
Occurs to me as well that if you lined the inside with coir you could make the sturdiest moss-pole on the block.

The mind wanders. :)


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Hey, Asleep - glad you woke up! True 'dat! I like the open-ness of this but that would be more the look most people seem to like. Philo roots will attach to this just fine. (Pics above somewhere.) What about other, similar 'junk' objects? The grates from grills/ovens/refrigerators? A dude with some tools would know how/be able to bend them... that part's not my area. I just bring the junk & describe the needed alteration. Have bird cages been mentioned here? They used to be like a freebie, but they've become expensive antiques lately. That's something I'd like to find at tha thrift store, I'd pop that tag!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Oh yeah bird cages would be sweet,but if I had one I just couldn't see tearing it up (not too sure if you even implied that) to make something else out of it unless it was already broken beyond repair.

Somehow I'd see an intact one going to some other type of arrangement where vines wouldn't be in and then right back out again on their way up which is what they need to get bigger ...or so it would seem.

Thanks for the warm wake up.
It was a good nap. :)


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Are these cool pics or what?! And these, and some person I don't know's Flickr pic:

The pot with the multiple species in the white pot in my last pic is kind of frozen in time but I did just put a pic of it in here today, if interested.

P. 'Micans' is probably the fastest growing plant at my house at the moment. When it came inside, it really started movin'. The orange spots are an interesting feature the camera put there. Not at all that pronounced in person. It's about time to secure each of these vines into position, headed back down.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Oh, way cool! Can you imagine having that in your living room?


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I went to Florida, where I got to see some epipremnum growing feral. Once it decides to go up a tree, the huge leaves and thick stem start pretty much from ground level. So my image of it needing to do some climbing before transition was wrong.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

they won't go feral unless there is a trunk to climb on and the light is very good - fl shade is much brighter then any sunny window. plus they get 85% + humidity at all times and temps in the 80s. it's been my experience that a lot of true tropicals don't grow really well until the temps hit 80s and humidity is above 85%.
i cut off my 'larger leaves' vine and splt it into sev sections.
it all budded and is growing, but necessarily the newer leaves are smaller, but i hope that they will enlarge with time.
i also carefully observed 'the native vines in the ground' in fl and yucatan,mex - leaves are clearly juvie on the bottom and quickly increase in size up the trunk.
i will make a coir totem this spring 'for active support'.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Today, I think I just have questions to throw out there, to ponder, maybe spark more curiosity. I wonder how much of an effect being moved has on plants that go in/out for weather. Can they ever feel secure/comfortable enough to break free?

Unless I'm forgetting something above or elsewhere, don't think I've ever seen a pic of an often-moved plant that's grown mature form leaves in a pot. But once in a while somebody posts one, with something like, 'what is this strange old plant sitting undisturbed forever on the exercise equipment we got 5 years ago?' So we know it can happen but those trying to make it happen sure are fussing with their plants a lot, myself absolutely included.

It seems the one common denominator may be being undisturbed? I'm thinking I should try an unconventional approach, NOT repotting some Syngonium or Epipremnum for a much longer time than I would normally let any plant go. It's already been 18 months that some heart-leaf Philo has been in a 5-gallon bucket with metal trellis. So that's a candidate too but I have to keep hacking away at it, which causes even more growth tips when I do, so IDK. There's too much bulk/mass to just keep winding them up/down/around. Crowding may hinder maturity? No idea.

If I do pot something with the intention of leaving it alone for years, it will be ONE vine.

The one problem I can predict is that the soil should disappear before 3 years have passed, from decomposition and erosion. I wonder if vines pulled up just so more soil can be added at the bottom (otherwise undisturbed) would feel/notice they've been disturbed? Roots protruding from drain holes are another issue. Does cutting then off constitute disturbance - to a vine, any vine, all vines?

Does anyone have any updates on vine experiments mentioned above?

Hopefully some really young people will develop some curiosity and get started.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I didn't get very good pictures of the epipremnum I saw in Florida. In particular, none clearly show the nearly all-or-nothing transition from little houseplant-type leaves to foot-and-a-half pinnatifid leaves.

If you want to leave a pot alone for years, it seems as though the thing to do is use sand for most of it, and just add some organic matter on the surface, which can be replaced as it decays by sprinkling a little on top.

My plant that's being forced to climb is continuing much as it was: still producing small leaves, but still producing root primordia on the internodes. The hanging one, likewise, is still producing small leaves and no root primordia on the internodes, only the two at each node.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Pardon me, but pls say what you mean by "root primordia". Thx.

Never mind, I looked it up, thx anyway.

This post was edited by pirate_girl on Fri, Jan 10, 14 at 15:21


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

On/in the ground, a predominance of sand drains/dries quickly. In a pot, a predominance of sand with compost on top would soon become airless, deadly mud. I've read to not do it, then done it to see for myself, and now wouldn't do it, or read such suggestion without saying so. Tiny particles in a pot cause problems, impeding the drainage, filling all of the tiny air pockets.

I appreciate the suggestion though. You noticed I didn't have one for a pot one doesn't intend to repot for years.

Cool pic! I bet you had a blast seeing that.

This is Epipremnum vine I saw in New Orleans. Itty-bitty leaves are visible at the bottom. We were able to get pretty close to this and see it well, but I couldn't understand the transition either, looking right at it. Is that how you felt looking at the FL plant?

It kinda seems like part of it just decides, "I can get to the top of this tree" and starts the plant version of 'running' up it. Knowing what it's going to look like unfortunately (or fortunately as the case may be since it's so hard to see) won't help instigate such to happen.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

i've seen a lot of these planted in hotels in yucatan in atriums. so they are in skimpy layer of soil, trained on 2-3" diameter posts - just rough cut pieces of trunk about 5-6' high. the vines are used as ground cover and so some climb up the post - at the bottom reg size, by the time they get to 5' they are already beginning to split and are quite large - dinner plate size. light is very bright with sev hours of sun thru the glassed roof. very humid and warm - 80 to 85F year round. i took pics pretty close ...will post later. am on diff laptop now.
also i did see pics on the net - people in south fl growing them in large pots on a patio - so outside and warm and humid most year. and they did have giant split leaves on top. can't locate the site, but will try later.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

double post

This post was edited by petrushka on Fri, Jan 10, 14 at 18:42


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I was imagining very coarse sand, as large as it takes to guarantee aeration. Maybe I should say fine gravel instead.

Specifically, here's what I'm imagining: Use a 5-gallon pot, or even larger if it's convenient. Get a thin-walled tube an inch or two in diameter and not as long as the pot is tall. (I'm imagining a rolled up sheet of newspaper, but whatever's handy.) Set it vertically in the pot. Fill it with fine sand, barely fine enough that it would stay wet and airless if you used it for the whole pot. Fill around it with coarse sand, coarse enough to have aeration but not so coarse that the fine sand all flows through the gaps. (If necessary, use two concentric tubes, with different grades of sand.) Lift the tube out, disturbing the sand as little as possible. Then fill the last couple inches with the same fine sand plus a trace of organic matter, maybe ten parts sand to one part peat-mud. Add organic matter to the top only enough to replace what's lost to decay. The idea is to have a wick that won't decay, pulling enough water out of the 10:1 sand and peat-mud so that it's aerated too. Rotted peat-mud that makes it through the fine-sand layer and into the coarse majority of the pot should wash out into the drip tray instead of sticking around as suffocating muck. This whole idea does depend on running copious amounts of water through fairly often, to rinse away any organic matter that makes it into the coarse layer.

If even that turns into deadly mud, how about coarse sand with no organic matter at all, and just water it more often?


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I pulled that 10% out of nowhere, and only after I posted did I decide to check if it's reasonable. Wikipedia says that close-packing of spheres fills 74% of the space. So if the sand grains were close to round and the organic particles were small, having 10% organic matter would leave 14/24= ~58% of the space available for air and water. Air space has to be connected in order to actually let the water out and air in, so depending on the particle size and the height of the wick-sand column (which should determine the water potential immediately after initial drainage), I think something less than 10% organic matter is called for. Maybe 5%.

The organic matter is there for ion exchange and water retention, so that the water and fertilizer hangs around long enough for the plant to use it. There is something that does that, and doesn't decay: clay. Its microscopic surface area is huge, so a little goes a long way. Of course, clay is very effective indeed at clogging a soil so it can't get air. Maybe something like 0.5% clay could be used, instead of the 5% organic matter? Then the question is how to keep the clay from washing out. My thought is to mix in the 0.5% clay suspended just enough water to completely wet the sand, and then let it dry very, very thoroughly. The diminishing water should retreat into the finest crevices where grains are in contact, pulling the clay with it. That should both help keep the clay from washing out, and help clear the larger spaces so air can get through.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

why such attachment to sand? scoria is far superior, absorbs excess water and releases it slowly. wicks well too.
can use diff sizes: more coarse on bottom.
not sure i understand the idea of pouring sand thru the tube. are you trying to make a draining well? in wet clay soils they use drainage pits/ditches that are deep and filled with rocks/gravel. you could use netted tube (from bag of onions?) to put inside the filler tube, then fill it up with gravel like you described: tube goes all the way to the bottom in ctr of pot. the netting holds it from migration, the gravel dries the middle and funnels water down.
but why not just use exoticrainforest 'jungle mix' formula?
i increase perlite to 40% for self-watering wicks. and put all tropicals in it.
i did notice that epipremnum loves long fibre sphag - roots readily in it. i just fill the 6" pot with it and let it grow for a year, then pot up in jungle mix without disturbing the roots. AND pile some LF sphag on top as mulch.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Sand, perlite, scoria, crushed granite: anything that's all rock so that it doesn't decay.

The purpose of the tube of sand is to make a wick, to pull the excess water downward. That way the surface layers can be fairly absorbent but still stay aerated.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Are links cool? Because I think y'all might want to check these out. It's behind a paywall, but it looks like it might provide some interesting info. We've been trying to induce this in pothos in the greenhouse. It seems like the key is all in the roots, as you guys have been getting at.

Here is a link that might be useful: Thigmomorphogenesis in Climbing... [Aroids]


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

i only read the summary...
you mean : it's all in the aerial roots? ...getting attached to the tree trunk?
so what is the size of the pot you are using? did the leaves increase in size yet? how fast? and by how much?
we need to know! and pics if you have any :)

This post was edited by petrushka on Sat, Jan 11, 14 at 21:45


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

When my plant was growing thicker stem and larger leaves, it was sort of wedged into the corner between the pieces of lath I had it attached to. Contact may have been what made it do so.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

so i am back from miami, fl and have lots of pics of mature epipremnum - pretty clear that once it's on a tree trunk the leaves increase very fast and at about 6'-10' they start splitting already.
also saw the vines with huge leaves trailing down and leaves decreasing just as fast - within 6' down they get small.
they have lots of them in the trees all over miami in coral gables and in south miami near fairchild gardens and even downtown/financial area.
on this pic you see clearly the increase within 5' off the ground.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

here's one up in the tree -very high up


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

this is a pic of mature syngonium, the arrow leaves on the bottom are juvies - also at about 5-6' they break into multiples.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

these are syngonium infloresences - very mature vine, up at 12' approx. not that clear to see, but the leaves have 7 lobes and are gigantic , like a total span of 18".
all of the above just 1 block away from brickell ave - financial/residential hi-rise area, within 10min walk from the hotel.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

and this is just a nice shot of brickell ave hi-rises from south miami ave, where those vines grow.
i was 'epiphytic' on the 50fl for a while there...:)


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I think it's more than just the vines being up against an object and producing aerial roots that makes the leaves grow larger. There's also got to be more sun. That's what happens naturally when the vines reach up through rainforest canopy and are exposed. Gaps in the canopy can let shafts of direct sunlight get lower, but it's in the tops that you get the largest leaves.

This photo shows large leaves on vines at the same height as small leaves on other vines in more shade. The large leaves are 65 cms long, the small leaves adjacent them are 25 cms long. The stem on the large leafed vine is 5 cms diameter and goes up 20 metres high in the tree.

gw n 140211 01

Here a vine has grown about 2 metres up a tree stump and produced larger leaves, 40 cms long. It had a lot of sun. Once it ran out of stump it kept growing but the leaves at the end were reduced to 12 cms. Once they hang, the leaves diminish dramatically.

gw n 140211 06


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

here's my version of size decreasing rapidly.
i def think that outdoor conditions of very high humidity, high temps in the 80s and very high dappled light are a must. and in home conditions can only be achieved in pots standing on lanai/patio,etc in semi-tropical conditions.
i never put my epi on the balcony before (tight space), but this summer i'll put it out in very bright shade to see what happens.
also i think that just stakes is not enough - it has to be bark/trunk like surface that gets moist and stays moist.
will need to get some bark covered posts.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

There's a restaurant near home that has a pair of rather impressive epipremnums. They're next to large south-facing windows, facing on a relatively open intersection, so they get more light than is typical. They also have larger pots than houseplants usually get, but not huge: maybe a little under 5 gallons. The vine winds around the pot several times before going up the wall. They're held to the wall with packing tape, of all things, not adhering on their own. The food was ok. Maybe I'll eat there again and remember to bring the camera.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

LOL and I hope so! I'd like to see that.

Look at this oddity. Mature Syngonium, but it's not a big plant at all.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Purple-- did you see the post I tagged you in on my FB wall? Glorious mature epi leaves in the Angawi house in Jeddah...


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

i think the oddity is a cutting of mature syngonium, it's just barely past the juvie state - the leaves are still very much arrow like, but beginning to split.
i took a cutting of a mature syngonium with sev multi-lobed leaves (5 lobes) - it was a branch off the main vine. i am rooting it now. am very curious if it will produce a juvie leaf when it starts growing? or will it retain a multi-split leaf? we shall see!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

That's what I think Petruska. Your cutting sounds cool! I've been trying to get such a piece since this discussion has been going. Occasionally someone in FL will post in NTP about their 'weedy vine' but none of them have been willing to put a piece in a box & ship to me, at my expense of course. Did you get your cutting when you were in FL?

Juliana, saw it yesterday since you mentioned it here and I knew to go find it. "WOW" isn't quite enough of a comment for that!! Did you visit that place?

I don't get on FB every day and have joined a bunch of plant groups. Although I have notices turned off for all of them, the posts are showing up on my home page (and notices page) in huge amounts & now I can't find the personal stuff there (the few posts that aren't just re-shared pics/jokes. I wish people would be a little more discriminating when sharing non-original things, it's like email used to be 15 years ago, just a bunch of forwards.) Anyway, I'm not sure what to do about it...? I want to see the groups when I have time, but not mixed with my actual friend stuff, and don't want to unfriend the few people who have this problem since they really are friends. If anybody reading this has any suggestions to PM to me, I'd be grateful for your efforts!


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Hey Purple! Yeah I haven't seen that in person-- KSA doesn't give out tourist visas, and so I've never been other than at the border by accident.

Re: FB, your "home" is your feed. Your wall is if you click on your name at the top. So everything you've subscribed to and friends you receive notifications from are on your feed. If you want to see where people actually tagged you on their walls or in pics, just go to your wall. As far as people being annoying, you just go to their page and click on following to stop following them and it should take them out of your feed. Or so that's how I think they changed it.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

yep, i got my cutting in miami by the roadside. it scrambles on everything and it does look very weedy. except when it gets really big! the leaves fan out in semi-circles - i kinda like that a lot. here's what the main vine looked like on a tree - sort of strange variegation on it. usually it's just plain solid green.
mine rooted, but no growth yet.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Not actually variegation, the plant is a bit sick. Unless it's just an old leaf starting senescence.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Good close-up of the mature leaf. Sounds like you had a blast playing with the weeds in FL! LOL! Isn't this form the 'most mature?'

The more I think about the plant posted that pic in NTP, (I linked here Tue, Feb 25, 14 at 11:31,) I'm more curious. I *think* its' leaves are mid-stage, between juvenile and the one Petrushka just showed in close-up? Is that person's plant the tip of a vine? Did someone climb a tree to get it? Cut it lower and pull it down?

I may have missed this above, but how did you 'harvest' your piece, Petrushka? How high up was it? Did you climb up like Tarzan? How many could you have gotten? Can you show us a pic?

If bought, I'm wondering how multitudes of such pieces would come to be in pots... harvesting? Propagating? Looks like it's in ground dirt too, not store-bought peat... so probably repotted by the person who posted the pic, but new enough that it looks like it hasn't changed at all since being potted as a cutting. We've all seen thousands of Syngs for sale, but a little mature cutting like that? Anyone? Not me.

It also begs the question Petruska should be able to help answer soon (and why I've been trying to lay hands on a cutting of mature growth of Syngonium in particular.) We've been discussing how vines go from juvenile to mature, but what happens in reverse, when one starts with mature growth? Will it make new basal growth? Will it start a vine of mature leaves?

J, TY. I thought turning notifications off for the groups would stop the posts on 'home.' It's clogging up that page making the real, personal stuff hard to find. I think you're right about that being the only way to deal with the overposting-people though. I can't spend so much time scrolling through all that stuff just in case they do post something personal, and have never found a setting to block 'shares.'

Thought I put a pic of this Syngonium we saw in New Orleans last April but I can't find it here. Might as well include with this post.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

purple,this last pic IS the syngonium vine :). mostly triple leaves, and some 5ers on top. i copied and re-cropped for close-up. on the bottom you can see a single arrow and triples.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

nope, i didn't have to climb - i broke off the branching tip with aerial roots off the main wooded trunk. it was about 3' off the ground. the vine does brunch often, but if you want a really huge multiple, they are on top 8-10' - so need a ladder for that!
here's another shot of how quickly the leaves change on the same vine: arrowhead folds at the tips and flares out, then a triple leaf forms. then it starts flaring on the 2 side leaves,etc.
this is just at eye level: 3-5 feet off the ground, that white chunk of stone? on the bottom is at the roots.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

P- yeah, I wish I could block shares! Now they have made it impossible to even block specific posts for eternity. keep popping back up each time I leave the feed. Ugh.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

so here's my cutting - the vine piece is burried, it's about 5" piece with 8 leaves.
this mottling looks unhealthy to me too, we'll see what happens when i give it some nutes - if it goes away or not.
so long as it is not some virus...i'm ok.
the whole plant does look quite weedy to me, but, hey, it's a curiosity for the time being.
the largest most recent leaf is about 7" by 8" wide, they seem to get bigger towards the top. all my leaves have 5 lobes and some have a beginning of 2 more: 2 little 'horns' on ends.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

Petrushka-- awesome! And yeah it looks a bit like iron deficiency or something, I see what you mean.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

i looked more at purple's pic and at mine: they are both syngoniums, but the split leaves look sort of different: purple's lobes sort of burst from the middle, while the plants that i've posted above in various pics def have this semi-circle arced effect, stretched sideways sort of.
on some other pics of mine i can make out may be up to 9 lobes on the very top. they remind me of manta rays :) with those 2 little leaflets at the edge.
i'd be curious to see 'mature leaves' on those variegated syngoniums that they sell. i read that variegation diminishes, but they don't loose it totally, do they?


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

saw this on ebay - the seller says if you want large leaves it has to go into 5 gal pot, when fills the pot, increase the size:). the rest as was discussed: pole, very good light, warmth.
pics 1-3 are not for sale, but still they say you'll get 11"x14" largest leaf. not bad, but pricey.

Here is a link that might be useful: huge epi for sale

This post was edited by petrushka on Sat, Mar 8, 14 at 18:00


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I wonder how much epipremnum needs to send its roots deep, versus how much the roots need to spread horizontally, in order to have the leaves and stems get big.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I think that Ebay seller is selling more hyperbole than plant. If you can't create the right conditions for the plant then you'll end up with small plant leaves regardless of paying that price for his "rare, giant, Hawaiian". It's the conditions on the island that made them grow like weeds since they were first planted there, not a varietal difference. You need to replicate the conditions if you want the same results.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

agreed. but at least IF you have the conditions, you don't have to start from scratch.
i clipped my supervine with largest leaves (only 5"x6", but all leaves on it are much larger then on other vines) - it grew last summer from 1' to 6' in 6" pot!
curious that it started wooding up. for now sev young leaves (newly developed shoots) are reg size, but i still hope that they will increase by fall. somehow on this vine older leaves continue to grow and increase in size too!
i will repot sev large leaved vines into a bigger pot in summer.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

I am glad I found this thread. I love all the pics. I have been wanting to try to get a pothos or philo to climb for a while. I finally gathered the supplies. My plan for the climbing pole is to use a dowel rod, surrounded by oasis foam just a little bigger diameter than the dowel rod, surrounded by a layer of sphagnum moss, surrounded by coco fiber basket liner. Think this will work/stay moist?
I also have some cuttings rooting to plant outside this summer to see if I can get a vine to climb a tree.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

well, we are almost to the max posts, so i wanted to update on my mature syngonium progress.
i have 2 new leaves of 'mature form' AND also some variegation near veins - that's totally unexpected!
so i have 5 leaves and 2 little 'horns' at the ends, just like other mature leaves.
when i took the cutting, the last very young leaf got mangled in xfer , so i cut it off, but left the stalk (where the new leaf develops) - so the 1st leaf was def formed BEFORE i took the cutting. now the 2nd? i am not sure - may be it was already formed inside there too?
so i'll have to wait for a few more to be sure.
but so far i am happy - i fed it well, so new leaves are dark green, the older leaves are slowly decaying one by one. but that's normal.
now the big question is - when do i trim the vine?
i think i'll grow may be 10 leaves , so i can trim it and root again and then see what will come out.
and then of course i am afraid that after the trim the young immature leaves start popping.
but that will be end of summer, not sooner.
so, the leaves on the left are new. they have a little hard time unfurling, so they some spots and tears.
they are folded in a very interesting 'origami' fashion. next time i'll take pics as they unfold to show you.


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RE: Vines, mature vs. juvenile transformations, epiphitic behavio

here's a close up of the leaf for detail of variegation.


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