Here's a copy of world-renowned Doctor Nick Christians' instructions for the use of Corn Gluten Meal (CGM) as a preemergent herbicide. Dr. Christians discovered the preemergent qualities of CGM. Thank you Dr. Christians!

From:
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&sit e=&q=cache:GKgkaWn2MY0J:http://www.7springsfarm.com/HOWTOUSECORNGLUTEN MEAL.pdf+nick+christians+corn+gluten+meal&ct=clnk

HOW TO USE CORN GLUTEN MEAL

NICK CHRISTIANS

Iowa State University

Corn gluten meal works by inhibiting the root formation of germinating plants. It generally does not inhibit the roots of mature plants or transplants until your [sic] reach very high rates (80 pounds/1000 ft2 or higher). It should be applied before germination of the weeds. The weed will germinate and usually forms a shoot, but does not form a root. After germination, a short drying period is needed to kill the plants that have germinated but have not formed a root. Timing is critical. If it is too wet during germination, the plants will recover and form a root. (This is also true of chemical preemergence herbicides).

It is preemergence only, there is no postemergence effect on established weeds. In fact, it makes a great fertilizer for germinated weeds.

If it does not rain in 5 days of application, water it in with approximately 0.25 inches of water. Then leave a drying period after germination.

It will usually work for about 5 to 6 weeks following germination.

[ZoysiaSod's Note: Not sure but maybe Dr. Christians meant to say "following application"--not "following germination?" Or maybe he absolutely meant to say "following germination." It's hard to say. Consider the following passage from Paul Tukey's Organic Lawn Care Manual (Page 179), especially the sentence I highlighted below:

"....[CGM] must be on the ground two to three weeks prior to the expected germination of the target weed. For crabgrass in the North, that date can vary from early April to early May, whenever the forsythia and daffodils begin to bloom. For crabgrass in the South, the product should be applied around mid-March, when the flowers open on dogwood trees. If your target weeds generally emerge in different seasons from crabgrass, corn gluten may be also be [sic] utilized at other times of the year....The product inhibits seed germination of all types and therefore cannot be used within six weeks of overseeding a lawn. That means that in any given spring or fall, you will usually decide not to apply corn gluten but rather to spread new grass seed."

Now consider this quote from David Mellor's Lawn Bible:

"[CGM] should be applied four to six weeks before the time the seeds germinate."

By the way, Mellor's statement differs slightly from Tukey's "two to three weeks prior."

So these three authors raise two different questions in my mind.]

Back to Dr. Christians, the discoverer:

Rates will vary depending on crop and target weed. I generally recommend 20 lbs product per 1000 ft2. This provides about 1 lb [sic: 2 lbs?] of nitrogen per 1000 ft2. Some crops that are grown in rows can be treated in bands in the row and weeds can be tilled between rows. This makes it more economical to use in crop production. Test the material at rates from 10 lbs/1000 ft2 in 10 pound increments to as high as 80 lbs/1000 ft2.

It does not work well with seeded garden crops unless they are seeded deeply (radishes seem to be the exception and there may be others). Transplants or mature plants generally work well. Some producers put down a band, work it into the upper inch of soil, and then put the transplant in the band.

In garden and crop production, growers generally work out their own system, depending on their understanding of the crop they are growing and the weeds they are trying to control.

The material is generally about 10% nitrogen by weight. One hundred pounds has 10 lbs of nitrogen. [ZoysiaSod's note: "That's why I used 'sic' above after 1 lb."]

The nitrogen will release slowly over a 3 to 4 month period after application.

I have to tell you I'm more swayed by Dr. Christians, David Mellor, Paul Tukey, and the many others I've read who say CGM works well as a preemergent herbicide.

Of course, you gotta get the timing right--which may have been hard for you to do? :-P

You obviously didn't have a good experience the time you tried it, but countless others have :-)

Simply saying it's worthless doesn't convince me. Thousands or millions use CGM as an herbicide judging from its annual sales.

Sounds like CGM proponents have several fail safe excuses to explain the lack of results people have with CGM as a pre emergent. Handy.

And if I recall correctly, your horrible herbicide experience was caused by 100%, straight up user error. Do you blame the hammer when you hit yourself on the finger?

My bad experience with 2,4-D was due to poor instructions on the bottle. Here is the original thread:

"Purple Nutsedge versus Zoysia" thread

I think your problem with me is that I'm using YOUR logic to argue the other side of the coin.

That CGM is certified organically grown, right? LOL!

You've simply mentioned that it's worthless, and left it at that.

So tell us what happened, if you want. Why don't you like it? Otherwise, I guess I'll have to believe the professor and the two book authors :-)

Last season I applied 20 pounds per 1,000 every month from March through October. That's 160 pounds per 1,000 over the season. I have as many weeds this spring as ever. There is no way I missed the timing.

My experience is considered an anecdote by the scientific community; however, the collection of anecdotes is what these forums are all about. I like to call it, experiential evidence.

I am much more swayed by texas-weed than by your authors. Over the many years he's been on this forum he's earned his guru wings. He's probably spent more time on a tractor on the grass than all your authors have spent in their grass. Nick Christians research indicates the value of CGM is unpredictable at best. At least that's the way I remember it - been a long time. Paul Tukey makes some glaring mis-statements about lawn care in his writing. You cannot write a book about lawns that assumes all grasses need the same care and treatment. When you come to these forums asking about zoysia issues, we do not reply with solutions that only pertain to rye grass. That is why it is so important to know where you live and what kind of grass you have. TW and I are moderators on another forum where you cannot register without filling in your location and type of grass. And just because we happen to be moderators on the same forum does not mean we always agree. My remarks here are more a defense of gurus than of co-moderators. As for Mellor, I don't know if he is the author of the same Lawn Bible that has been quoted here many times. If so I dismissed that book/author so long ago I can't remember the details. Probably the same reason I don't care for Tukey's writing.

This forum gets plenty of testimonials raving about the advice provided. I'd say most of the kudos are directed at TW for his Bermuda Bible. I don't recall anyone every saying, 'don't listen to TW, he doesn't know what he's talking about.' He might sound like a curmudgeon at times, but you need to listen to him. More people have successful lawns now since he came to the forums.

I did not think you were being hard on me, and if I did, I could careless because I do not know you. It's the internet, and I do not allow folks to get under my skin.

But your question is fair enough. I base my comment on about 35 years of personal use, reports of others who have tried to use it, and with the exception of ISU who owns all the patent rights to CGM as organic fertilizer, there is no credible 3rd party testing agency or university study to substantiate ISU claims.

I haven't looked into this in depth, but I did quickly find the following scientific (not anecdotal) study from the University of Missouri--Columbia and Andrews University that supports the original Iowa State research:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=cache:J ja0PuqpHSEJ:http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/16326/1/IND4375894 6.pdf+validate+corn+gluten+Christians&ct=clnk

The last sentence in the abstract reads:

"Results suggest that natural plant products such as CGM and semolina flour alone and formulated with selected DRB may be important components for weed management considerations in sustainable agriculture."

Here are a few sentences from the Results section of the *scientific* research study:

"Both corn gluten meal and liquid G2-11 suspensions reduced green foxtail seed germination to about 55% of germination noted in the absence of amendments."

Later in the Results section, the scientists who are NOT affiliated with CGM patent-holding Iowa State University, but instead affiliated with the University of Missouri--Columbia and Andrews University write:

"CGM severely inhibited wheat root growth in fine sandy loam (Figure 1). In contrast, strain G2-11 and CGM reduced wheat root growth equally in silt loam."

And:

" With velvetleaf, CGM was more effective than G2-11 in reducing root growth in silt loam but not in fine sandy loam (Figure 3). The majority of velvetleaf roots (88%) grown in fine sandy loam was less than 5 mm long in the presence of CGM compared to 8% of roots in the absence of CGM. Abnormal velvetleaf root morphology such as browning, severe twisting, and tissue softening was noted in plants growing in CGM-amended soil. CGM inhibited green foxtail root growth greater than G2-11 in both soils; roots averaged 1.4 and 3.3 mm in fine sandy loam and silt loam, respectively."

Here's the Abstract (summary) of the study:

Deleterious rhizobacteria (DRB) suppress weed growth in field tests and are considered potential weed biological control agents. This study compared the relative inhibitory action of the DRB Pseudomonas fluorescens strain G2-11 in different formulations, corn gluten meal (CGM), and semolina flour, toward wheat (Triticum aestivum L.), green foxtail (Setaria viridis (L.) Beauv.), and velvetleaf (Abutilon theophrasti Medik) seeds and seedlings in soil assays. Strain G2-11 successfully established in semolina flour as an inoculum formulation but was incompatible with CGM presumably because of antibacterial factors present. The effect of DRB and plant products on seed germination and plant growth were influenced by soil, with the strongest effects seen in fine sandy loam. Semolina flour alone reduced root growth of all target plants except for velvetleaf in silt loam. Green foxtail seed germination was greatly reduced by strain G2-11. With the exception of wheat seedling growth, strain G2-11 enhanced growth-suppressive qualities of semolina flour. Results suggest that natural plant products such as CGM and semolina flour alone and formulated with selected DRB may be important components for weed management considerations in sustainable agriculture.

Communications in Soil Science and Plant Analysis, 36: 1289�"1299, 2005

I use to use CGM. Not because of its herbicide effect, because it was cheap. However being on a farm I did not buy it as a fertilizer in bags with ISU stamp on the bag. I bought it in bulk delivered to the farm as livestock feed for $100/ton or 2000 pounds worth. If bought in the 50 pound bags as fertilizer, $100 would get you about 100 to 150 pounds at today's prices.

With all that said, I no longer live in TX and my Son has the house and does not use CGM, he uses a urea product for fertilizer and Dimension herbicide and and the lawn has never looked better. He even keeps up the golf green in the yard, and today it plays like a USGA putting green. But I must admit he has more time to put into than I did and cheap/free child labor to do the work everyday.

My neighbor had lots of foxtail weeds in his front yard last year. I pulled quite a few of them before they got into my yard.

But to be honest with you Texas-weed, I may not use corn gluten meal this year as a preemergent. I might use it, but I'm leaning against it. Corn is just too expensive nowadays ever since that ludicrous corn ethanol gasoline program that Big Agra bribed (sorry, I mean convinced) Congress to support.

I'll probably just plant cool season grass seeds in some bare spots and fertilize with alfalfa meal. Like you said, used to be corn was cheap. But no more.

David Mellor in The Lawn Bible writes:

"Using corn gluten meal can reduce crabgrass 50 to 60 percent in the first year and up to 98 percent the second year."

I'd say a reduction of 50 percent in the first year is significant.

Mellor also writes, "The major advantage to using corn gluten is that it is completely harmless to humans, pets, and other vegetation."

Here's a poignant quote from a Fairfax County government page at http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/nvswcd/newsletter/weedfreelawns.htm">http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/nvswcd/newsletter/weedfreelawns.htm:

"Unfortunately, many of the synthetic chemicals we add to keep our lawns lush are not good for our families, or the environment. Many chemical weed and feeds contain herbicides that have been linked to increased rates of cancer in people and pets. The use of chemical fertilizers and herbicides by residential homeowners, including many of us in Fairfax County, is one cause of deteriorating water quality in the Chesapeake Bay.

What can we do to keep our lawns, our families and the Bay healthy? The answer may be to use corn gluten! In the 1980’s Iowa State University turf grass researcher, Dr. Nick Christians, discovered the natural weed and feed capability of corn gluten meal, a protein-rich by-product of corn processing. Commonly sold as feed material for livestock and pets, corn gluten meal contains 10 percent slow-release nitrogen by weight, making it a natural fertilizer. In turf grass experiments with corn gluten, however, Christians observed a startling pattern. Turf plots where corn gluten had been applied seemed also to have fewer weeds! Corn gluten, Christians determined, contains amino acids that actually prevent seed germination, making it a natural pre-emergent herbicide."

The following is a passage from another *scientific* study. This one from Montana State University. The study appeared in the journal Grounds Maintenance, Volume 35, Issue 6.

"Corn is not the only grain from which gluten--a combination of two proteins--can be derived, however. Wheat also is a significant source. Researchers from Montana State University recently conducted a study to better define wheat gluten's herbicidal properties.

The researchers, Dr. Robert Gough and Ron Carlstrom, tested wheat gluten meal on 17 weed species. Depending on the rate used, germination was reduced by 50 percent or more in 12 of the 17 species. Particularly sensitive species included leafy spurge, pigweed, shepherd's purse, henbit, quackgrass, annual bluegrass, Canada thistle and orchardgrass.

[Tiemco, these are all common weeds in home lawns, my friend :-) ]

If this laboratory performance translates to field tests, wheat gluten will hold great promise as a practical weed control. In these experiments, wheat gluten meal provided control similar to corn gluten meal at just one-third the rate. This is significant because the high rates (compared to synthetic herbicides) required for corn gluten meal are responsible for its relatively high cost. And this cost is difficult to reduce because the price of gluten, which is derived from grain, is controlled by commodity markets. If wheat gluten is effective at lower rates, it could result in a significant new choice for turf managers interested natural organic controls.

Here's the link: http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail?sid=fca7cbe0-5408-44b8-813f-3814 141bb665%40sessionmgr11&vid=1&hid=12&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZQ%3d%3 d#db=bth&AN=3308649

Here are some facts:

The state of Iowa number 1 economic product (money generator) is CORN.

ISU largest educational program is Corn Agriculture.

Iowas number one priority is marketing corn products, all corn products including CGM which is a waste product, especially from Ethanol production.

Any reasonable person can clearly conclude Iowa is heavily biased on CORN. They have to be without corn it would be called Michigan and with Ghost Towns.

One thing that really ticks me off is the GREEN MOVEMENT and the Employment Prevention Agency. If they had their way most of the people on the planet earth should be exterminated.

One of the things that made the USA the super power it is today is its agricultural and petroleum production. Without it we would be a very hungry desperate 3rd World country like Africa. Without the so called dangerous chemicals, most of which come from petroleum, we would starve to death. The benefits far outweigh the negatives. Take away the Petroleum and Agriculture industry in the USA and you wipe out the economy and 60% of government revenue Agriculture and petroleum are the golden egg laying gooses in the USA. There would be no USA without them. That is exactly what the Green Mafia and Employment Prevention Agency want for our country.

OK I will get off my soap box now.

Sorry.

Or discount any real world experience or research that says CGM sucks as a pre emergent?

You are making really great emotional arguments, but when handed facts to the contrary of your emotions, you discount them and start thinking people are being mean to you. LOL!

You put tons of weight on the research you WANT to hear, and none on facts and research you don't want to hear.

Any real pre emergent, not CGM, CAN rid your lawn of all annual weeds in one season.

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/gardening/corn-gluten-meal-did-not-pr event-weeds-germinating-osu-study

Or this one:

http://organic.kysu.edu/CGM.shtml

The fact of the matter is CGM does have some preemergent effects, but this has been known now for decades. The problem is timing is critical with CGM, rates and costs are high, and control is almost never complete, nor reliable. Perhaps someone will someday focus on the peptides in CGM that are responsible for preemergence, and synthesize those, but until then there are much better options on the market today.

You're making an assumption here, which you do a lot in your debating style :-)

You and I don't know the reason. We don't even know if wheat gluten has been even tried in field tests since 2000--which is only a decade ago.

Field tests and all research requires a funding source. I don't think the Green Mafia (as Texas-weed likes to put it) has a lot of money to fund research.

And if we're going to bring up debate styles, this is where you stop talking turf and say I don't play well with others, or some other personal drivel.

I wonder how many people you've turned off organic lawn care. You are doing it no justice. Feel like we're being sold a bill of goods.

Uhh, we don't know if *wheat* gluten has never been field-tested. You'd have to do a literature search, or just search Google, which I'm tiring of today.

*Corn* gluten meal has been field-tested.

Grasshole, you're very boorish. My condolences to your family.

But on schedule, the personal attacks. LOL!

1. N/A

My biggest issue, as I have said before, with your authors is their authoritative approach but incomplete text. You cannot treat grass in Vail, Colorado the same way you treat it in Orlando, Fl, Maine, Seattle, or even Denver. There are far too many variables to make the blanket statements they claim will solve YOUR lawn problems.

If you want some other rabbits to chase, look up paramagnetism and sea salt (different searches).

Having said that, when I came into this forum, the main guy to bash was Jerry Baker. He had all these concoctions for your garden. They were based on soda pop, beer, dish soap, ammonia, and tobacco juice. All the gurus here thought he was a crack pot...harmless, but a crack pot. Well, lo and behold, the world is coming back to Jerry Baker's way of thinking. With the encouragement of some respected gurus, I've used sugar, beer, and soap on my lawn with some success.

Some studies are more rigorous, some take into account more factors, some are better designed, some have better methodology, some just have a random wrench thrown into the works that skews everything off--the list is endless for what can happen.

I would guess that if a literature review were done for all the scientific studies on CGM, that at least 4 out of 5 studies show that CGM works. The percentage may be even higher. Maybe a scientist has published such a review. Searching online will find it, if you're up for it.

Here's a study published in 2007 from Webber and Shrefler of the USDA and Oklahoma State University (also NOT patent-holding Iowa State) that shows positive results for CGM:

International Journal of Vegetable Science, Vol. 13(3) 2007

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=cache:O 04zAh7InKcJ:http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/20771/1/IND4409173 0.pdf+literature+review+corn+gluten+Christians&ct=clnk

The two researchers write in their Abstract (summary) of their findings:

"Corn gluten meal (CGM) may be used as a preemergent
or preplant-incorporated herbicide for organic weed control of young, developing or emerging weed seedlings. Unfortunately, CGM can also adversely impact seedling survival of certain direct-seeded vegetable crops....Field research was conducted in southeast Oklahoma (Lane, OK) to determine the phytotoxic impact of CGM application and incorporation methods on...

....CGM applications adversely affected seedling establishment of all direct-seeded vegetable crops. Injury and morality [sic] occurred prior to seedling emergence. In all but 2 isolated instances the lowest CGM rate significantly decreased seedling establishment....

Although all of the CGM applications rates significantly decreased seedling survival for these crops, the potential usefulness of CGM as an organic herbicide should encourage additional research to develop safer application methods for CGM."

[So they're saying CGM is hardcore stuff. They want to find a way to use it against weeds without it affecting nearby planted crops so much.]

I'm a newbie to lawn care--only learning about it for the past 8 months--so I'm thinking about using CGM for the first time next month. Unfortunately, the best pricing I'm finding online for a 40-pound bag of Bradfield Organics "Luscious Lawn" CGM is $46 to $49 shipped (from Amazon and from Morgan County Seeds.com: http://www.morgancountyseeds.com/Bradfield.html

If you walk into a local store, you might find a 40-pound bag of "Luscious Lawn" for $29 to $32.

Anyway you have a Zoysia lawn right?

So to use CGM as a per-emergence requires an application rate of 20 to 40 pounds per 1000/ft2. In terms of nitrogen that is 2 to 4 times over dose of nitrogen. Yep that will act as a per-emergence and burn most young weeds and grasses up.

If you have Zoysia, in your area requires only two fertilizer applications per year at a rate of 1-pound of nitrogen per 1000/ft2. Once when greened up, and again about 8 to weeks later If over fertilized, Zoysia will be subject to very heavy thatch, insect, fungal, and disease problems and open you up to a world of hurt.

So just 1 application of CGM at a rate appropriate for per-emergence application will be 2 to 4 times more nitrogen than your grass can handle. Not too mention the cost involved will cost you $40/1000/ft2 compared to about $5 using other products for both fertilizer and per-emergence that will not harm your grass and over dose it...

With that said go for it. You pays your money, and you take your chances.

There is NO evidence of pre- or post-emergence weed control.

It is INCONCEIVABLE that ANY government agency would register and support a herbicide with such a LOW LEVEL of efficacy.

At best, Corn Gluten Meal is a VERY WEAK HERBICIDE that MAY have some uses for do-it-yourself home-owner weed management.

Unfortunately, Corn Gluten Meal CANNOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY as a COMMERCIAL product for use in the PROFESSIONAL LAWN CARE INDUSTRY.

Most assuredly, NO government agency would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS consider registering this type of product for use in the AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY.

It appears as though some government agencies are using the PROFESSIONAL LAWN CARE INDUSTRY as the DUMPING-GROUND for BOGUS INFERIOR Green Alternative Pesticides.

Full effective control can only be attained with conventional pest control products, such as 2,4-D and other herbicides, which will provide a very high per cent kill of damaging weeds.

2,4-D has been used for the control of broad-leaved weeds in the Urban Landscape SINCE 1946.

2,4-D has a 65-YEAR UNBLEMISHED SAFETY RECORD regarding long-term risk to health.

For more information about Corn Gluten Meal, and other Green Alternative Pesticides, please go to the following links ...

http://pesticidetruths.com/toc/corn-gluten-meal-herbicide-dismal-failu re/

http://pesticidetruths.com/toc/green-alternatives-bogus-dismal-failure s/

WILLIAM H. GATHERCOLE AND NORAH G

NORAHG is the National Organization Responding Against HUJE that seek to harm the Green space industry.

NORAHG is a NATIONAL NON PROFIT NON PARTISAN organization that does not accept money from corporations or governments or trade associations, and represents NO VESTED INTERESTS WHATSOEVER.

NORAHG is dedicated to reporting the work of RESPECTED and HIGHLY RATED EXPERTS who promote ENVIRONMENTAL REALISM and PESTICIDE TRUTHS.

http://pesticidetruths.com/

You guys don't know what color the lines are painted in the middle of the road, do you?

Oh, did I mention pop corn. I read that pop corn will ....

This simply is NOT true. If I weren't polite, I'd just call it a lie. No offense :-)

You also wrote, "Full effective control can only be attained with conventional pest control products, such as 2,4-D and other herbicides, which will provide a very high per cent kill of damaging weeds."

This is funny. I see now you're not a liar; you're just a comedian :-)

Why would I ever use 2,4-D again? [chuckle]

Some weeds need to be sprayed 2 and 3 times with 2,4-D before they die. You spray them once, then a couple weeks later, you gotta spray them again--and then maybe even a third time after another two weeks, you'll have to spray them yet again. The weed chapter in the Scotts Lawns book is full of passages where they tell you you'll have to use herbicides two or three times to eventually kill weeds. (Many weed species are just hard to kill with herbicides.)

Why should I waste all my time spraying the same weeds multiple times with 2,4-D when I can simply pull them out in one fell swoop?

Yellow woodsorrel pulls out easily. So do Purslane and Spurge.

Last summer I used 2,4-D to spray yellow woodsorrel, the very common weed with the 3-lobed, heart-shaped leaves. The weed quickly yellowed; but recovered in a matter of 2 or 3 weeks. I thought to myself why should I spray it again, and possibly then again? I simply pulled it out.

I sprayed a purslane weed with 2,4-D last summer. The thing began drooping the next day. But after less than a week, the weed was standing tall and upright again. So I pulled it out. Pulling it out took a lot less time than using 2,4-D.

I pulled out lots of Dallisgrass last year along a fence line. Haven't seen it since. And I didn't poison my soil in the process of spraying 2,4-D or Roundup/glyphosphate. No beneficial bacteria, fungi, arthropods, and other creatures beneficial to the grass were killed.

Each weed is different in choosing the best way to attack it. Some weeds you can simply pull out in one fell-swoop. Other weeds like crabgrass and henbit can be controlled with a single spraying of 5-percent white distilled vinegar (available at your grocery store).

Boing water is a ruthless killer. Heat up a kettle, and you have heavy-duty weed control for your driveway, sidewalks, rock motes, and other places. You probably won't want to use boiling water in your lawn, because it will quickly kill your grass along with the weed.

A gas flame torch can also be used on weeds like dandelions that have a thick taproot. Pull out the dandelion, and then torch the top of its taproot; otherwise the dandelion will grow back from its taproot. (I don't know how well this works, because I haven't tried it yet--I'm having trouble finding my gas flame torch after moving to St. Louis last summer. It's somewhere in the unpacked stuff. Books I've read like The Organic Lawn Care Manual, however, have endorsed the flame torch method, but they didn't mention for which weeds it would be effective. My guess is it will work with dandelions. Be careful you don't burn your house down. If you're worried about it, just skip the torch. I haven't used it yet. Lots of weeds don't even have thick tap roots, so the torch isn't necessary for most weeds.

Using synthetic herbicides and synthetic fertilizers will poison your soil. They kill very helpful bacteria, fungi, and other creatures that your grass really needs. I'm no expert by any means, but the following is from my post in the Jamur Zoysia thread (You'll also want to read the Organic Lawn Care Manual and Teaming With Microbes):

If you want to keep your grass healthy, you won't use any artificial, synthetic fertilizer [or synthetic herbicides]. Those synthetic feritlizers are so salty, they'll kill the beneficial bacteria, fungi, and other microorganisms in the soil which grass normally relies on. And with those organisms in the soil dead, your zoysia will then become dependent on the synthetic fertilizer for food.

Grass depends on microorganisms **in the soil** to break down organic matter and produce the food the grass then eats.
But the synthetic fertilizers feed the grass roots directly, **bypassing the soil system.** The synthetic fertilizers also kill the microorganisms in the soil. So then the grass can't get its food from any other source other than the synthetic fertilizers. Synthetic fertilizer is like fast food. It's junk food. You want your grass eating good food, and it can't with the microorganisms in the soil dead.

If you want to fertilize your lawn, add some slow-release *Organic* fertilizer during zoysia's most active growing period, which is the summer. So near summer, maybe May or June, use a spreader to apply soybean meal, alfalfa meal, corn gluten meal, or other *Organic* fertilizer. Or you can apply compost too. In fact, you can go ahead and apply compost most anytime. Lots of beneficial bacteria, fungi, and organic matter in compost.

Your lawn isn't just the grass. Your lawn is the soil, the microorganisms in the soil, and the grass as a whole system :-)

You can't favor one over the other two. If you do, eventually they'll all suffer.

Hi Texas-weed, I'll reply to your post soon--a little later. My fingers are fingered-out right now :-)

Awfully similar rant styles, eh?

Try to make your posts useful, grasshole.

Dchall�s hands on experience (i.e. "20 pounds per 1,000 every month from March through October") is very telling. It is clear he gave it a good shot to work. I know enough from his past posts on this and other forums that he would be thrilled if CGM was really effective. He has been a lawn enthusiast and more specifically an organic lawn enthusiast for quite a while. I have also seen hands on reports from participants on other lawn care forums that have come to the same conclusion that CGM is not very effective. We can all Google stuff and read many different reports and studies and that is all good but I come to forums like this to see what experiences real people have in real lawns in the real world. Based on this evidence there is no way I could be persuaded to trust CGM on my lawn as a pre-emergent.

I don't know why Dchall_san_antonio's CGM regimen didn't work.

I think I recall reading Dchall_san_antonio saying he didn't use an Iowa State certified CGM product. So that could be part of it, as explained in a post found in the thread linked below.

All I can do is point to my November 21, 2011 post in the following thread that lists some reasons why CGM doesn't always work:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/lawns/msg11165130747.html

The thread is called Strawberry-like weed in lawn, in case the link ever breaks in the future.

Sorry but that is just plain silly. CGM is CGM, no matter how it is packaged.

Sorry, it's not silly :-) The web page linked below provides lots of really good, helpful information about the proper use of Corn Gluten Meal, including this excerpt:

"Labeling: "Corn gluten meal" sold as animal feed is not the same thing. It is not licensed by Iowa State, so the university is not compensated when you buy it; and it often does not contain the right protein concentration to achieve seed death. I have received many emails from listeners who thought they were getting a huge break on the price, only to discover they were simply feeding their emerging crabgrass.

"Products licensed by Iowa State will say something like "pre-emergent herbicide" on the label, have the correct protein concentration, and carry complete instructions for proper use. They are more expensive than animal feed CGM because they use a much higher quality gluten--which sells at a premium--and the manufacturer pays that fee to the university to fund research to find more cool stuff like this. By law, animal feed gluten cannot say anything about herbicidal effects and will not have directions for any weed-killing use. It also might not work--did I mention that?"

[End of quote]

Here is the link for the web page where I excerpted the 2 paragraphs above:

http://www.gardensalive.com/article.asp?ai=753

Any grain mill in the country can bag CGM and label it as FERTLIZER proving they purchase the Royalty rights from ISU to do so and pay ROYALTIES on each bag they sack up.

I know this for fact, the grain mill I do business with packages CGM and sold as Fertilizer. About 3 years ago I was going to have them make me a production run of CGM labeled as Catfish food and sell at 1/4 the price as the exact same bag as Fertlizer, the only difference was the label on the BAG.

So yeah if you have the notion their is a difference between a bag of CGM listed with ISU trademark and one labeled as Animal Feed go right ahead and buy the one with ISU stamped on it and pay 400% more for it. As PT Barnum said: There is a Sucker Born Every Minute.

I am 100% confident that texasweed and Mr. Hall know the difference and are not confusing the 2.

I remember reading a web page a couple months ago authored by Dr. Nick Christians, the professor who discovered CGM's preemergent qualities in the mid-1980's. The professor said on that page that many of the CGMs on the market today do not have the necessary protein concentrations.

They all have nitrogen, of course, but apparently not all have enough of the right proteins in the right amounts--whatever that means. I can't find the link to that page anymore. Maybe a chemist can lend a hand here.

Amended above post. I don't know if it matters.

No offense, Texas-weed, but you wrote:

"....the only difference between a bag of CGM marked as Animal Feed, and one marked as Fertlizer with a (ISU Patent Tradermark) is a 400% price difference..."

AND you wrote:

"Any grain mill in the country can bag CGM and label it as FERTLIZER [providing] they purchase the Royalty rights from ISU to do so..."

Sorry to point this out, Texas-weed (because I like you), but it's not bags of CGM marked as FERTILIZER that need to pay a royalty to Iowa State U. It's bags of CGM marked as weed killer or preemergent that have to pay the royalty.

Bradfield Organics markets CGM as fertilizer, so their price is cheaper than CGM marketed as preemergent weed killer.

More failsafe excuses for the CGM crowd.

One question. Is this YOUR lawn? Or your Mom and Dad's?

I just ask because I remember you mentioning your mom and her garden before.

There's not much you get right though.

Anyway, good on you for helping your parents out. I'll refrain from posting in your threads. Sorry I got under your skin.

CGM has been around forever. It is the proteinacious remains of the corn after grinding off all the carbohydrates for other uses. Since it was accumulating at alarming rates at the processing plants, it was dumped for years. Then it was dumped at feed lots for free just to get rid of it. Then the feed lots realized the value and started paying for it. It's used in animal feeds like dry dog and cat food, too. CGM is CGM. Corn gluten FEED is described at this link.

"Corn gluten 'feed' is often confused with corn gluten "meal." In contrast, the "meal" is high in bypass (ruminally undegradable) protein, while corn gluten feed has a high ruminally degradable protein fraction."

So the undegradable (or undigestible?) protein is the good stuff with the preemergent effect, whereas the ruminally degradable/digestible stuff doesn't have as good of a preemergent effect. (Ruminally: think ruminant and stomach, I suppose).

I don't know if radio show host McGrath got "Corn Gluten Feed" mixed up with "Corn Gluten Meal" or not, but in the quote from his web page I posted above, he did use the words "animal feed CGM".

Also, Texas-weed referred to animal feed as CGM too when he wrote, "the only difference between a bag of CGM marked as Animal Feed, and one marked as Fertlizer....is....cost."

And when he wrote, "So yeah if you have the notion their is a difference between a bag of CGM listed with ISU trademark and one labeled as Animal Feed go right ahead and buy the one with ISU stamped on it."

But judging from the PDF you provided, I guess there is a continuum of Corn Gluten products from the Animal Feed that has low concentrations of the Undigestible preemergent proteins to the Iowa State-certified CGM that has a high concentration of the Undigestible preemergent proteins. The Digestible proteins don't have much of a preemergent effect.

I guess the real question concerns the Corn Gluten in the middle of the continuum--in other words the Gluten that is not Animal Feed at one end AND NOT Iowa State-certified preemergent weed killer at the other end. This middle-of-the-road GLUTEN is sold as Grass Fertilizer and is probably "meal"--not "feed"--but can we say with certainty that this Grass Fertilizer CGM has the exact same percentage and concentration of the undigestible preemergent proteins as the Iowa State CGM? That's the question.

We now know, thanks to the pdf, that the feed does NOT have the same percentage as the Iowa State-certified stuff, but we don't know what the numbers are for the Grass Fertilizer-labeled stuff.

There does seem to be a continuum. Some brands of grass fertilizer CGM might have less than the Iowa State standard, and some might meet the standard, percentage-wise. We just don't know.

I would hope that the Bradfield Organics Grass Fertilizer does have the same percentage of the preemergent proteins that the Iowa State-certified brands do, but I can't say for sure, and I can't say that the other brands of Grass Fertilizer do either. Maybe they're all the same or maybe they vary greatly in the percentage of the good stuff according to the brand you happen to buy. Some companies might like to make a little higher margin, maybe.

However, we know for sure that the Iowa State-certified products like from "Espoma" and from "Concern" meet the standard.

I don't know if the Bradfield Organics "Grass Fertilizer" CGM (it's actually called their "Luscious Lawn" product) has the right type of proteins in the right concentration (I think at least 60 percent is necessary, according to a DirtDoctor thread), but I feel fairly confident it's as good as the certified preemergent brands because Paul Tukey mentions Bradfield Organics positively in the following article:

Corn Gluten Meal as weed control?

I went to BradfieldOrganics.com and clicked their "Find a Retailer" button. In Missouri, there are over 60 stores you can buy their 40-pound bag of "Luscious Lawn" CGM.

I called about 5 stores in the St. Louis metro area. Hummert in Earth City was cheapest at $26.50 for the 40-pound bag--probably from last season (4500 Earth City Expressway).

Fenton Feed Mill (412 Water Street in Fenton) had the next best price at $28.35, but she said it's definitely last year's CGM. OK Hatchery Feed & Garden Store in Kirkwood had the next best price at $39. One store wanted $44. (Damn, that old DirtDoctor thread had people buying 50-pound bags of CGM for $14.)

Also found out Bradfield Organics used to be a division of Saint Louis-based Purina before Nestle bought Purina. Bradfield Organics was spun off and is now part of Land O'Lakes of Saint Paul, Minnesota. Bradfield still has a large presence in Missouri with a mailing address in metro Saint Louis: Brentwood.

Do you think this $28 one-year-old CGM will be as effective as fresher CGM? They say not to use last year's grass seed because it will have a lower germination rate. I hope one-year-old CGM is as good as this year's CGM.

I found the link where the Iowa State professor says to buy wisely:

At http://www.hort.iastate.edu/directory/gettherealthing he says to "Get the real thing":

"In recent years, we have seen an increased substitution of corn gluten feed and distillers grain for real corn gluten meal. This is often sold at feed stores or local garden stores. These products are not the real thing. They are not corn gluten meal and they will not work. If you want real corn gluten meal, be sure that you are buying from a licensed dealer or someone who is carrying product from a licensed dealer."

I guess by licensed dealer, he means Iowa State University-certified dealers like Espoma, Concern, and W.O.W. I can't afford it. I guess I'll take my chances with Bradfield Organics Luscious Lawn. Or maybe I'll just save even more money, and buy the Bradfield Organics Luscious Lawn & Garden product which is alfalfa meal instead of Corn Gluten Meal. The alfalfa will probably have all the macronutrients and lots of micronutrients, whereas the CGM will probably just have one macronutrient (Nitrogen) and no micronutrients (you do get the preemergent proteins though).

CGM has been an animal feed for decades. It is synonymous with livestock feeding. Look at the graphic on the linked PDF to see where the various byproducts come from. I've never heard of cost being an issue with feeding CGM to livestock. When they buy for a feed lot they buy it by the truckload. They might get 5-10 cubic yards of it for $100. I might know someone to ask about that pricing.

CGF is a term for another byproduct. The way products are labeled in the plain brown bags, I'd be surprised if anyone made the mistake of buy CGF instead of CGM. They might make the mental mistake of confusing the two but the bags will be properly labeled. CGF has the bran and is soaked in the original wash water for the corn. Basically it is a less purified product with other products reincorporated into it. CGF probably makes an okay fertilizer. Apparently it does not work as a preemergent.

CGF is only rarely found in real life. I heard the warnings before I knew of the difference. The similarity of names is causing confusion in the organic user community but not in the organic research community.

Distillers grains will never be confused with anything because of the naming of the product. It is always called distiller's grains. Distillers grains make a decent organic fertilizer but the experience with it as a fertilizer is not that vast. It could be excellent if it retains the corn factor plus an added yeast factor. Don't know because I've never seen it.

I guess I'm suggesting you do not try to guess who has made mistakes in calling this or that product what it is. Assume everyone knows what they are talking about...at least on this topic. You have cleverly limited this subject to two aspects of corn without following the rest of the distractions leading astray. The consensus in the organic gardening community forums is that CGM makes an excellent fertilizer. In my opinion it is the best of all the grain based organics. Furthermore the consensus of the lawn forums is that CGM (the real stuff) makes a mediocre preemergent weed control product when you use it according to the label and get lucky with the timing. In fact it is so mediocre as to be considered worthless on that count. The outlier forum on the preemergent issue is the Dirt Doctor forums. Howard Garrett is on the radio every week proclaiming the virtue of CGM as a preemergent. He may have reasons for saying that week after week, but the repeated conclusion in the forums is that it does not control weeds like you think it will. Yes is suppresses some weed seeds but it is not the golden goose. It does not prevent weeds.

Here is quoted from his Website Dirt Doctor.

Substitute for Corn Gluten Meal June 2011 Update

Question: I know from one of your recent articles you are no longer a fan of corn gluten meal. What do you recommend to use as a substitute??? I agree with you that it is expensive and inconsistent. Any help that you can give us is sincerely appreciated.

Answer: Good question. I'll tell you what I use. In the Spring I apply zeolite at 40 lbs per 1000 sq ft. followed immediately with dry molasses at 20 lbs per 1000 sq ft. The zeolite holds and buffers nutrients that might be out of balance. Dry molasses provides nutrients and super stimulates beneficial microbes. Then I spray once a month with Garrett Juice Plus and Alpha Bio Thrive. If minor insect or disease pests pop up, I spray Bio Wash, do some hand weeding and vinegar spot spraying and occasionally treat problem weeds with Garden Weasel Crabgrass control.

Source: http://www.dirtdoctor.com/Corn-Gluten-Meal-Updated-Information-2011_vq 17.htm

I'm saddened to hear you didn't have a good experience with Corn Gluten Meal. You also mentioned needing to "get lucky with the timing." Getting lucky with the timing is true of all preemergent weed killers, whether you use organic or synthetic chemicals.

Here is a positive experience from Mr. Wayne Bengston of Cordelia, California (that's his real name as he provided it in his review on Amazon.com).

Mr. Bengston writes of the 25-pound bag of Espoma preemergent weed killer:

"This product is composed of 100% corn meal gluten. Corn meal gluten is a non-selective pre-emergent herbicide which also has naturally occuring nitrogen as well, so it makes it a great product to put on your lawn in the fall, BEFORE the weeds start growing.

Being a non-selective pre-emergent herbicide means that it keeps ALL seeds from germinating. This means that it needs to be applied to lawns that are already esablished, and care needs to be taken to not apply it where seeds have been planted which you want to grow.

As a fertilizer, corn meal gluten is rated at N-P-K ratio of 9-1-0, or 10% nitrogen by weight [or 9-0-0 or 10-0-0].

It should be applied at a rate of 20-40 lbs per 1,000 ft-sq. Rates above 80 lbs per ft-square will interfere with the growth of healty plants and grass, so don't go above 40. I used 20 and had good results.

Corn meal gluten is not 100% effective either. On first application, it is around 60% effective, but that goes up to a maximum of about 80% after multiple applications, about 4-6 weeks apart.

Corn meal gluten needs to be watered lightly after use and allowed to dry after, so don't apply it if rain is forecast before the lawn can dry.

It must also be said that if you already see weeds growing in your lawn, it is too late for this product, at least as a weed killer. It will still prevent more weeds from germinating, and it will fertilize the soil, as well as helping to make future applications more effective.

So, you will still see some weeds with this product, but because you are not damaging the soil, and are making your lawn healthier, there will be fewer weeds just due to the thicker grass.

Another thing to take note of is that this often can be found at feed stores and is finding its way into the nuseries and other places that carry lawn care products. It generally goes for half the price at sources other than Amazon... That said, if I can't find a local source, I will be purchasing it from Amazon again."
[End of review. Emphasis added.]

Amazon link for a bag of certified Espoma CGM

Amazon link for a bag of certified Concern CGM (interestingly, they also add the P and K macronutrients to this product--wonder if it has any micronutrients too?)

ZS you're saddened to hear that I did not have a positive experience? Hang around here long enough and you'll get tired of saying that. That's the point TW and I are trying to make. We've been here for a decade. In real life it is rare to find someone who has had a good experience with CGM as a preemergent. One problem with evaluating the effectiveness of CGM is that most people do not have a control plot that they do not use CGM on. Without a control, you cannot know how well the product is working. All I know is I used it at 20 pounds per 1,000 on a monthly basis for an entire season and I have weeds. Should I have used more? Should I have used it more frequently?

On the other hand, my experience with it as a fertilizer has been phenomenal.

Well, I don't know. but here's another positive, anecdotal review of CGM:

http://www.amazon.com/Concern-97185-Weed-Prevention-Plus/product-revie ws/B000R1JHXI/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy =bySubmissionDateDescending

But more important to me than the positive and negative anecdotes is the science. So I'll give CGM a try.

I ordered one 40-pound bag of alfalfa meal ($18--sheesh, why so much for alfalfa?) and one 40-pound bag of Corn Gluten Meal from Bradfield Organics. Both bags sold by Hummert International in Earth City.

Fenton Feed Mill

Valley Park Elevator

OK Hatchery Feed & Garden Store

The best price I could find was at Hummert International in Earth City.

Farmers on CraigsList are selling 50-pound bales of alfalfa hay for $7. Ahh, if I could only transform that hay into meal. But I guess I'd also be worried about weed seeds in the hay.

I don't think my neighbor next door ever had foxtail weeds in his front yard until after the lawn mowing company slit-seeded his front yard with cool season grasses AND layed brown straw as a mulch.

Maybe that brown straw was the culprit, because he got a shipload of weeds and foxtail afterwards.

Pacific Feed & Supply in Pacific, Missouri (554 East Osage) has a 50-pound bag of alfalfa pellets from Arco for 14.xx.

It's mostly used for feed, he said, so I hope he didn't actually mean to say they are the cubes instead of the pellets. Whatever it is, it's not OMRI-listed as organic like the Bradfield Organics Luscious Lawn & Garden alfalfa meal or pellets.

So you got your cubes, your meal, and your pellets. Now
we're getting somewhere.

Dickey Bub Farm & Home (I love that name) in Eureka has just the alfalfa cubes--50-pound bag for 12.99. I think the cubes might be too big to break down as quickly as the pellets? Not sure how well they'd work in a spreader (100 Hilltop Village Center Drive).

Diehl Feed on Tesson Ferry has 50-pound bags of alfalfa
pellets for $17.99. He didn't see a brandname on the bag.

Eureka Feed Station in Eureka (4 S. Central Ave.) has a 50-pound bag of alfalfa pellets for 13.50. Doesn't have Corn Gluten Meal, by the way. This is the winner, I think.

No matter where you are in the country, entering your zip code in the "Find A Dealer" field at PurinaMills.com will show lots of feed stores in your area.

Handy Feed & Grain (419 S Jefferson Street) in Millstadt, IL (across the river) sells the 50-pounder of alfalfa pellets for 12.75 (same price for meal).

Waterloo Feed & Pet Supply (401 WEST THIRD STREET in Waterloo, IL) has alfalfa for $xx.xx per 50-pound bag.

West County Feed & Supply (17050 MANCHESTER) has both the Dehy Mills alfalfa pellets and the alfalfa meal (powdery stuff) for $14.30 for 50-pound bags. They also have the alfalfa cubes to feed the animals.

Dehy Mills used to be called Mary Mills or Merry Mills--one or the other.

Sidenote: I was at Walmart today. Saw them putting out the lawn and garden stuff in the big indoor room that stocks seasonal items, like holiday stuff in December. I think today is their first day unpacking the lawn & garden items because very little was on the shelves, but lotsa workers unpacking boxes.

Did see huge 50-pound sacks of K-31 tall fescue. Was it being sold by Scotts? No. Was it being sold by Pendleton? No. It was being sold by the Midwestern States Fescue Association (their web site as printed on the sacks: www.ky31fescue.com.

Only $40.95 for 50 pounds of K31. Their turf type tall fescue has endophytes.

"Turf-type tall fescue, Festuca arundinacea. Simply known as tall fescue in many classifications, the phrase "turf type" has been added in recent years to differentiate the new cultivars from pasture grass. Tall fescues have been used on lawns since 'Kentucky-31' was plucked from a Kentucky farm in 1931. People, especially in the North, weren't all that happy with K-31's weak performance and coarse blades and might have written off tall fescues as an option."

"With the arrival of 'Rebel', 'Olympic', 'Houndog', and other cultivars in the 1970s, turf-type tall fescues began their migration toward popularity. Finer textured and denser than their predecessors, turf-type tall fescues offer great year-round color. They may tend to thin out during really hot, dry summers and will usually benefit from a late-summer overseeding. They may also winter-kill slightly in some of the coldest climates, but will usually bounce back when the weather warms."

"Tall fescues wear slightly better and are more tolerant of a wider range of soil conditions than other fescues. 'Endeavor' gets high marks for tolerating heat and humidity, and for its dark green color"
[End of quote]

I think of all the fescues, tall fescue is the best at handling the heat of the upper South, but I don't think even it does well in the hotter South.

www.ky31fescue.com.

The pictures are part of their animated .gif or .png on the homepage there.

Not to be confused with the Organic Lawn Care FAQ...because I disagree with some of what Tukey says in his website, blog, videos, and the manual. I think his blanket statements do not apply to gardeners from the south and even from the west. If he had written the Maine Organic Lawn Care Manual, I'd be more relaxed about it.

Quote from PenningtonSeed.com: "The Pennington Sunburst line offers a selection of premium, economically-priced grass seed products, including common varieties like Kentucky 31 Tall Fescue, Sahara Bermuda, Annual Ryegrass as well as highly seasonal varieties like Pensacola and Argentine Bahia grasses."

Here's a direct link to Pennington's "Premium Quality 99.9% Weed Free Kentucky 31 Tall Fescue and it's Penkoted.

Most of the yards in my neighborhood are about 4,100 square feet, but there are some yards that are half an acre. Half an acre is a lot of turf to cover.

I would guess some folks might want to seed inexpensive K-31 on much of that half acre, but leave 5,000 to 10,000 square feet close to the house for the higher quality fescues, whether tall or fine.

Of course, you and I both mean "Pennington" when we said "Pendleton."

Pennington also sells uncoated K-31. Would I plant K-31 in my small 4,100 square-foot yard? No. But I was happy to see a big box carry grass seed that wasn't either from Scotts or Pennington. The more competition, the better for the consumer.

Walmart is selling all those bags of K-31 to somebody. And every year I see K-31 in other big box stores too. So I guess those bags are going to buyers in more rural areas with large pastures, and maybe to suburban buyers with half an acre or even a full acre to care for.