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splitpoplarfarm

new lawn

jacob.morgan78
10 years ago

Hi, I just moved into our house a few months ago and I'm trying to grow something green (preferably grass) around it. I have about 30,000 square feet that are currently bare. It's your typical virginia clay soil and is a wet mess right now. I'm waiting for it to dry up so I can use a rake to get the roots, rocks, and larger clumps out from where it was rough graded.

My question is, how can I amend this clay soil to get it ready for seed? I'm planning on using a kentucky 31 seed. I've read about adding compost, coarse sand, and/or topsoil but I feel like this isn't very practical (at least the compost isn't) for 30,000 sq. ft.

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!!!!

Comments (8)

  • dchall_san_antonio
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    First of all, why Kentucky 31? Is it because your grandfather used it? ...because for the last few decades it has been considered to be a weed in modern turfgrass.

    What are you looking for in a yard? If it just has to hold the dust down, then K-31 will do it. If you want something that looks more normal and wears well, then you would want something with Kentucky bluegrass in it. If you want it to look green all year round but not necessarily wear well, then turf-type tall fescue. It depends on what you want.

    Your soil was ready for seed back when they graded it. Now is not the worst time of year to seed in Virginia, but you're moving into the worst time (late spring to summer). Spring seeded lawns are typically weedy because crabgrass is germinating right now, too. And by July they are often 100% crabgrass because turf type grasses don't develop strong roots for months - so they die in the heat. Crabgrass is developed by Mother Nature to fill all the voids in the summer heat, so you end up with all crabgrass by the end of July.

    If you want to do something now, you might seed with inexpensive seed and in the fall, do a full renovation. That's not as hard as it sounds.

    Compost is highly overrated in my opinion. Rodale started the compost movement in the 30s and nobody seemed to learn anything else until the late 90s. There is still a strong gravitational pull toward compost, but I am resisting it. I believe all you need to do is feed the microbes you already have with organic fertilizer, and the soil will continue to improve. If you decide to use compost, wait until after the grass is growing. Don't mix it into the soil. The grass roots and microbes will supply your soil with organic matter. If you ignore that and decide to mix it into the soil, the mixing rate is 10%. So to mix it into the top inch of soil, you only need 1/10 inch of compost. Note that 0.1 inches of compost is impossible to measure in real life, so there you go. That would be 9 cubic yards of compost for 30,000 square feet.

    One thing neither compost nor organic fertilizer will supply is micronutrients. If you want to amend your soil with something, micros are the thing to do. You can get your soil tested under most university programs, pay too much, and never learn what you need. Or you can spend $20 at Logan Labs in Ohio and get all you need. If you do that, let me know here and I will tell you how to find a forum where they read LL soil tests for people. LL tests are the only tests they read, so spend your money wisely. Oh and they read them for free, so I'm not selling anything.

  • jacob.morgan78
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OK, I'M WRITING IN ALL CAPS TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MY RESPONSES AND YOUR QUESTIONS/POST. NOT BECAUSE I'M YELLING :-) FIRST, THANK YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSE!!!

    First of all, why Kentucky 31? Is it because your grandfather used it? ...because for the last few decades it has been considered to be a weed in modern turfgrass.

    MAINLY BECAUSE I READ IT'S GOOD FOR CLAY AND GROWS WELL IN MY AREA AND NOT TOO EXPENSIVE.

    What are you looking for in a yard? If it just has to hold the dust down, then K-31 will do it. If you want something that looks more normal and wears well, then you would want something with Kentucky bluegrass in it. If you want it to look green all year round but not necessarily wear well, then turf-type tall fescue. It depends on what you want.

    I JUST WANT IT TO BE GREEN... CLOVER, CRABGRASS, WHATEVER :-) I DON'T NEED OR DESIRE A BASEBALL FIELD JUST SOMETHING MY KIDS CAN PLAY ON.

    Your soil was ready for seed back when they graded it. Now is not the worst time of year to seed in Virginia, but you're moving into the worst time (late spring to summer). Spring seeded lawns are typically weedy because crabgrass is germinating right now, too. And by July they are often 100% crabgrass because turf type grasses don't develop strong roots for months - so they die in the heat. Crabgrass is developed by Mother Nature to fill all the voids in the summer heat, so you end up with all crabgrass by the end of July.

    I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE SEEDED BY NOW BUT I NEED IT TO DRY UP SOME SO I CAN RAKE OUT THE JUNK (ROOTS, CLUMPS, ROCKS) BEFORE SEEDING. I DO PLAN ON INVESTING IN SOME GOOD SPRINKLERS AND TIMERS TO ENSURE THAT IT DOESN'T DRY OUT. HOPEFULLY THIS WILL HELP DURING THE HOT MONTHS. AND I DON'T MIND THE WEEDS TOO MUCH AS LONG AS THEY'RE NOT IN MY GARDEN.

    If you want to do something now, you might seed with inexpensive seed and in the fall, do a full renovation. That's not as hard as it sounds.

    THE KENTUCKY 31 IS ALREADY PRETTY INEXPENSIVE SO I'LL USE THAT AND PUT MONEY INTO IRRIGATION STUFF

    Compost is highly overrated in my opinion. Rodale started the compost movement in the 30s and nobody seemed to learn anything else until the late 90s. There is still a strong gravitational pull toward compost, but I am resisting it. I believe all you need to do is feed the microbes you already have with organic fertilizer, and the soil will continue to improve. If you decide to use compost, wait until after the grass is growing. Don't mix it into the soil. The grass roots and microbes will supply your soil with organic matter. If you ignore that and decide to mix it into the soil, the mixing rate is 10%. So to mix it into the top inch of soil, you only need 1/10 inch of compost. Note that 0.1 inches of compost is impossible to measure in real life, so there you go. That would be 9 cubic yards of compost for 30,000 square feet.

    SO YOU THINK JUST SEEDING ON TOP OF THE CLAY IS FINE AND THEN ADD ORGANIC FERTILIZER ALONG WITH MICROBES?

    One thing neither compost nor organic fertilizer will supply is micronutrients. If you want to amend your soil with something, micros are the thing to do. You can get your soil tested under most university programs, pay too much, and never learn what you need. Or you can spend $20 at Logan Labs in Ohio and get all you need. If you do that, let me know here and I will tell you how to find a forum where they read LL soil tests for people. LL tests are the only tests they read, so spend your money wisely. Oh and they read them for free, so I'm not selling anything.

    IS A SOIL TEST REQUIRED TO SUPPLY MICRONUTRIENTS? I WAS PLANNING ON TAKING A SAMPLE TO SOUTHERN STATES TO SEE IF I NEED LIME OR ANYTHING. I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN WHAT YOUR SPEAKING OF. LET ME KNOW WHAT TO DO!

    THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR GREAT RESPONSE AND GUIDANCE, I TRULY APPRECIATE IT!!!

  • beckyinrichmond
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm in Richmond VA. Last spring I seeded some bare areas where a tree was removed and nursed it along. The crabgrass overtook it. In August I sprayed Roundup over the whole back yard and planted tall fescue in early September. I put down lime and fertilized several times in the fall. It came in well. I'm going to put down preemergent Monday (rain/snow predicted for Tuesday, forsythia starting to bloom) so hopefully the crabgrass will be under control this year. I wonder if it would be just as well for you to let the crabgrass come in and be the lawn for the spring/summer and then you could plant your seed in the fall (use Roundup to kill the weeds first). The expense isn't just the seed; it's the water to keep the seed moist several times a day and the time fiddling with the water and hoses. If you're going to invest in an irrigation system, why not go for better seed too? Whatever you plant now will die in the summer heat and competition from crabgrass. But it will look nice for April-June if you want to do some seed now. September is when you should plant grass that will be permanent.

  • jacob.morgan78
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Do you think the new grass would die even if I continue to water through the hot months before sunrise?

  • beckyinrichmond
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The roots won't have time to develop much. A hot day with temperatures in upper 90s and 100s will sap the moisture out of the top inch of soil. What you're supposed to do with watering (after the grass has come in) is water deeply and infrequently (not a little bit every day) so that the top layer of soil dries out while there is moisture lower in the soil from the deeper watering. Your roots will likely be in that top inch of soil.

  • JannSM
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    beckybeck, Thanks so much for explaining what can happen when grassroots don't have enough time to develop deep roots before hot weather hits. I have a neighbor who planted grass in a bald spot in his lawn a couple of weeks ago. He has faithfully watered and it has sprouted. I knew it's hard to get grass to sprout at this time of year so I thought he was over the big hurdle, but now I realize he faces an even bigger challenge. We're in Raleigh NC and temperatures in the high 90 degrees F are predicted this week. So his grass remains in jeopardy. Perhaps the predicted high humidity and rain showers will help him out. I hope so. Until I read your comment I didn't understand this aspect of timing grass seed sowing. Much appreciated.

  • agrocoders
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In another post to say compost is irrelevant but then to mention organic fertilizer as sufficient is wrong when compost is simply organic fertilizer that you don't have to pay for.

    Thatch is compost. Mulching mowers is compost.

    Save the compost you make or buy for the flower beds, fruits, and nuts. A green grassy lawn is more a choice of the type grasses you pick properly for your soil and climate. Buy the mix that looks best for your soil and climate.

    Whenever I do a search for good lawn grasses for temperate regions I get Empire Zoysia or various Short Fescue mixes. I would be glad to here other recommendations though if they are competitive.

    As I or others aren't on my lawn much I'm going to try short fescues to minimize mowing and although they a borderline here in my zone if they take I am set.

    If not then I'll try something else. I do not want a lawn that I need to become as expert as a sports stadium or golf course ground crew or spend dollars annually on fertilizers and herbicides.

    But if you have a lawn without any flowers, shrubs, or trees I could understand taking up the lawn itself as a hobby. That Empire Zoysia Grass seems to be popular for that type lawn.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jacob,
    Since you are going with k-31, I would wait before spending money on a soil test. If you absolutely cannot get anything to grow, then do a soil test. Otherwise spending the money to tune up your soil micronutrients would be like putting a 4-barrel carburetor on a Volkswagen hoping it will turn into a Ferrari. K-31 is your limiting factor.

    Here is a picture of a Ferrari lawn. It is highly tuned soil with Elite Kentucky bluegrass on it.

    {{gwi:81154}}

    That guy (morpheuspa) spent the money for good seed and for annual soil tests. With every test he makes adjustments to the real micro nutrients like boron, and some others that are virtually never listed on fertilizer bags. He waters and mows weekly and, for that picture, he was fertilizing with organic fertilizer on a weekly basis. So that is the ultimate lawn compared to a really average Kentucky bluegrass lawn. Also Morph waters deeply once a week. I suspect the neighbors water shallow on a daily or more frequent basis. It also looks like they are mowing their lawn too low.