Midnight II has slightly better drought tolerance and disease resistance than Midnight. (But it has the same color)

I wondered the same thing too.

I've proven that midnight II is not immune to rust but it came back after a couple of immunox treatments and all that rabbit damage.

Thanks for the responses. I live near Charlotte, NC. I'm seriously thinking about overdseeding 100% KBG in the Fall. Overseeding is a yearly ritual with fescue in this area. I understand that the KBG will take a beating in the Summer, but so does fescue.

I want a blend of KBG variaties that has the very dark color as well as good transition zone performance. I understand this applies to Midnight/Midnight II. Do Blue Velvet and New Destiny fit that criteria? What about Barrister? What other variaties should be considered?

Thanks.

I don't think you'll be disappointed with a blend of Midnight and M.II. It's done well here just don't forget to water but let it dry out in between. Germination takes forever and I highly recommend using a straw blanket and seeding a little earlier than you would with tf.

I've got some Midnight in my fescue now. The Blue Velvet and Nu Destiny varieties mentioned above sound like they might be even better for the transition zone. They tested very high for color and transition zone performance.

Below is a great site with lots of good info on KBG and other grasses. I don't know how to link so copy and paste in the browser bar.

http://www.seedsuperstore.com/stat_sheets/default.asp

I looked at the table from the website link given. Am I correct that Midnight II KGB doesn't perform well when it is in shade?

Most KBGs aren't good in shade including Midnight II. According to the table, Moonlight seems to be a pretty good shade performer. It also is #1 rated for dark green color.

how many pounds of seed do I need for a 9,000 sqft lawn?

Thanks!

ajer16, I have a question for you. Earlier, you mentioned about the combination of "Midnight II, Blue Velvet, and New Destiny". Are you saying that with this kind of seed combinations, someone can achieve a quality similar to golf lawns? Are all 3 a KBG seed?

Thanks!

As the name suggests, midnight and midnight II are VERY similar grasses. Obviously, the II came second so it has some additional refinements. Unless you did DNA testing though, you probably won't notice much of a difference. The II fairs slightly better in most disease tests though.

As for overall testing, year after year, all the KBG does horribly in raleigh compared to tttf. Best of luck to you if you want to experiment, but I don't know anyone who would recommend it at more than a small portion of a grass blend for NC (unless you are up in the mountains.)

"Are you saying that with this kind of seed combinations, someone can achieve a quality similar to golf lawns?"

Perhaps the rough or fairway but not the greens. For the greens you would want to use something else like bentgrass that tolerates lower mowing heights better.

tarheel,

There's really no reason to blend Midnight II, NuDestiny, and Blue Velvet. I meant that any one of them would be a great choice in full sun--in a climate where KBG is adapted. Although I can't say I have experience growing KBG in the transition zone, I think Bill makes a good point about your summers being too rugged for KBG. Still, I'm like Quirky--I like to experiment with various sorts of turfgrasses--so it would be interesting to see what happens.

As I mentioned before, Midnight II has a noticeably finer texture than old Midnight, and its near clone Award. That's a big plus in my book.

These top-notch KBGs have performed pretty well in fairway trials with cutting heights of one-half to three-quarters of an inch.

A.J.

Quirky,

I'm sorry but I don't understand this post from you earlier.

"Perhaps the rough or fairway but not the greens."

So guys, since here in Chicago, our temperature sometimes goes above 95 and at full sun too, can I apply MII in all of the sunny areas in my lawn by fall? Or should I mix it with other seeds? If you are suggesting that I have it mix, what's that other seed then?

Please send me links of online store that I can buy this MII and other seeds. Oh, how many pounds do I need to buy for a 9,000 sqft lawn?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Chicago 95 is nothing like southern 95. It sounds silly, but when it is 95 in the day in the south, it tends to get down to around 85 at night. It is significantly rougher on cool season grass because they really don't get a break.

For chicago, midnight II would be a great grass choice for full sun.

As for the greens on golf courses, they are basically never a KBG. They needed to be kept much shorter than KBG will typically grow, so they use bent grass. Even the lowest growing KBG is taller than bentgrass.

What if I mix KBG MII with bentgrass, does that make any sense? I mean, will it be a champion mix for Chicago?

"Chicago 95 is nothing like southern 95. It sounds silly, but when it is 95 in the day in the south, it tends to get down to around 85 at night. It is significantly rougher on cool season grass because they really don't get a break."

Find me one night in the weather almanac from the past 10 years where the night time low was 85 in non-coastal-NC. This is just silliness already. The warm season in Chicago may be shorter and less humid but even chicago will have heat stress on cool season grasses in the summer. You will never concede that you can grow bluegrass in the south, will you?

Virtuocity-
What I mean is KBG is a nice lawn grass but it's not what they use on golf courses.... at least not the part of the golf course you're thinking of. You wouldn't want to mix the two KBG and bent together as their care regimens are quite different. The care regimen for bent may also be out of reach for the average homeowner with a large lawn. Lots of mowing, lots and lots and lots of watering, lots of feeding. But man it is so worth it.

Virtuosity,

Kentucky bluegrass is not only a good choice for a full-sun lawn in Chicagoland, it is the best choice by far. A good seeding rate for this species is 2 to 2.5 pounds per 1000 square feet. Summit Seed in Manteno, a bit south of you is an excellent outfit to deal with, and they carry Midnight II.

Forget the creeping bentgrass, unless you want to be a slave to your lawn, and spend a bundle of money in the process. Dr. Trey Rogers, a turfgrass professor at Michigan State, and the "Yard Doctor" on this site, told us at a field day seminar, "If somebody tells you they want to make a creeping bentgrass putting green in their yard, tell them to go lie down until the feeling passes."

A.J.

AJ,
Do you have Trey Rogers' book "Lawn Geek: Tips and Tricks for the Ultimate Turf From the Guru of Grass"? I was wondering if it is a good read. Saw mention of it in my local paper just today. Funny that you mention him because I didn't recognize his name.

"A good seeding rate for this species is 2 to 2.5 pounds per 1000 square feet."

Ah, that means, I just need at least 20 to 25 pounds of MII for a 10000 sqft area.

Is it bad if I order it now but put the seed in fall?

Oh, what about MII and Moonlight in shady areas, is it a very good combination?

By the way, I cannot visualize a 2.5 lbs seed for a 1000 sqft. Do you guys just estimate? And also, this fall, LOL, should I cut the existing KBG sod downto 1.5" then apply the MII?

"Is it bad if I order it now but put the seed in fall?"

That depends on how you plan to store them. If you keep the seeds cool and dry you should be fine, but if you let them get too hot or too humid, you'll have reduced germination.

I read somewhere (probably here) that a good rule of thumb is 100--that's a combined temperature (degrees F) and relative humidity. As long as you keep those below 100, you should be ok, so if it's 80 degrees and a relative humidity of 20, you're going to lose some germination. If it's 90 degrees but you're in the desert and the humidity is only 5%, you're probably ok.

Realistically, for most of the US, that means that you need to store the seed inside during the summer.

I read this link, http://www.turf.uiuc.edu/extension/ext-kbgfact.html

It mentions that it's good to have combination of seeds. Hmmm, looks like I want to do that route then. :)

Since I am in Illinois, and I want to have a lawn that is
- dark green
- low maintenance
- can be cut to as low as 2"
- full sun
- drought resistant
- and good in shady area

what combinations should I combine with Midnight II?

I found another combination :) What do you think about this folks? Looks like a good combination.

They call it Fairway Blues Kentucky bluegrass Blend.
http://www.arrowseed.com/turf/product.php?id=400836582

From the website.
Description: A blend of the best low mowing tolerant bluegrasses available. These varieties have excelled in the NTEP Trials at 1/2 inch cut. In addition to the excellent adaptation to short mowing heights this blend will have very dark green color, high density, and great disease resistance. This blend is an excellent choice for golf courses, fairways, primary rough, high maintenance sports turf, and premium home lawns. Seeding Rate: 2 to 3 lbs. per 1,000 sq. ft. Varieties may include: NuDestiny, America, Blue Velvet, Award and Midnight II Kentucky bluegrass.

That's a very good blend.

"You will never concede that you can grow bluegrass in the south, will you?"

I'll never conceed that KBG is well suited to central or eastern NC, if that is what you mean. There is a NTEP testing sight in Raleigh. Year after year, KBG does just horribly. Not just 1 or 2 kinds....all of them. The quality ratings are on a scale of 1 to 9 with 1 being dead and 9 being basically perfect. In IL, lots of the premium KBG's rate a 9 or very close during the prime growing season. In Raleigh, those same premium KBG's are down to 4, 3 or even lower by the end of summer. This isn't my opinion, it's repeated testing over years with dozens of different KBG's. They just don't do well here. More power to ya if you can get it to grow in your yard, but KBG just isn't suited for NC.

Sorry, don't have a weather almanac. I do have a electronic temperature gauge on my deck that records daily highs and lows in addition to current temps. At the height of summer, it routinely stays in the upper 70's and 80's. That might not match the official lows at the RDU airport, but then again, I'm trying to grow grass around my deck, not out on the tarmac.

I was able to talk to ArrowSeed. I asked about the Fairway Blue blend and price isn't really much expensive. She told me that for my 9500 sqft, I need 30 lbs.

Do you think guys that blend/mixture is perfect for my area(zone 5, IL)? I will be putting the seed on Fall though.

I am not sure about the central and eastern part of the state but I live in the west side of Asheville and I have bluegrass. It grows so good here that I have wondered if I did the right thing in planting it versus fescue. I have a brand new toro self-pace mower that truley struggled last summer to get thru it even at the highest setting. Last summer was hot and dry here but that grass just kept on going strong. I would say give it a try and good luck.

Ok Bill I know your trials up there have some pretty dismal scores allright. just don't go lumping everbody including the sweltering hot, low elevation, humid climate of the mid-atlantic in with the rest of "the south" for accuracy and confusion reasons.

Subywu,

Yes, I bought Dr. Rogers' book as soon as it came out--cuz I'm a lawn geek. It's not deep, dark science, but is a comprehensive guide to lawn care written in a folksy, conversational tone. There are lots of good tips and tricks in there, based upon the experiences of professional turfgrass managers.

Virtuosity,

That "Fairway Blend" looks excellent for a sunny lawn. I don't think it would be good for a moderately shady lawn, however. The only cultivar in there that is decent in shade is America, and that's a dated cultivar anyway. What is the price of the blend?

A.J.

ajer16, the price of the Fairway Blend from ArrowSeed for a 30 lbs is $112. Is the price too high?

I have a question regarding the definition of shady. In the turf realm, when we say shady, does it mean, all day it is shady? It's because, the shady area I meant was only shady during mornings and that is the northwest side. But in the afternoon, it is directly underneath the sun. Then on my south east side in the afternoon, it gets covered by the house's shadow. That is during summer. However, during winter, southeast side, southwest side are directly under the sun. The northwest now gets tons of shade from the house's shadow.

Virtuosity,

That's a good price. From your description, I think you have plenty of sun for an all-KBG lawn. Good luck, and keep that seedbed moist!

A.J.

ajer, what do you think about the seller's advice to me

From his email reply:

"Fairway Blues Blend would work very well in the Chicago area, providing an extremely high quality, disease resistant upgrade to your existing lawn. Overseeding an existing bluegrass lawn can be successful but remember the existing grass will compete strongly with the tender new seedlings. My suggestion for a renovation proceedure would be 1)to scalp (mow as short as possible) the existing turf, 2)remove the clippings, 3)power rake the lawn, 4)broadcast the Fairway Blues Blend, 5)power rake again, 6)roll or pack the lawn, 7)fertilize 8)then water."

Honestly, I don't want to rip the old grass. I don't want neighbors to think I am insane. :)

Also I didn't understand what he meant by step 6 which is "roll or pack the lawn".

What are your thought guys about the recommendation?

You don't need to rip out the old grass. What they mean is to mow it really short that way you don't have to mow it until the new grasslings are strong enough to handle that and also to let some sunlight in there to let the new grasslings take off. To "Roll" the seeds is to use a roller. I think that's typically done when you're starting with bare soil. It's definitely optional. Some people don't like to do it because the seeds might stick to the roller. I don't know why you would need to or want to power rake a second time but if you haven't power raked in while that may be beneficial before you spread the seed. Maybe somebody else can explain the logic behind doing it after you seed.

Do I still need to power rake if by fall, the sod is just 1 year old?

And also, I see some lawns near curbs, they are covered by the green like cloth material. What are they used for? My brain thinks it is used to cover the seed so that birds won't eat it or wind won't blow it. Am I correct? Do I also need to do that?

Of course KBG grows in Central NC. I have it in my yard, and it's 100% bluegrass - NO fescue. I'm less than 2 miles from RDU airport so I'm basically in Raleigh.

The fescue lawns don't fare much better than my bluegrass, and as you probably know, fescue is the best adapted grass in the transition zone and recomended by NC State.

By the way, I like to correct you by saying that do not generilize NC climate/weather as is varies dramaticaly from region to region.

KBG grows much better in the western parts of NC than in MANY part of Illinois, Chicago included.

I have a question about the NTEP trials. Take a look at the KBG trials for the Raleigh area HERE. Scroll to the very bottom. There it shows that they mow it at 1.1 to 1.5". When I look at the NTEP trials for TTTF in my area, they mow to 1.6 to 2". By mowing at these relatively low heights, could they be putting the grass at a disadvantage?

auteck,
You're right about Western NC. In the mountains, high temps usually top out in the high 80s. It's not unusual for night time temps to go down the low 50s. I went to App State. My first year there, I was amazed to wake up to the low 40s the first week of September.

yardbird,
They are absolutely putting the grass at a disadvantage. It calls into question the value of those trials. That's not a normal mowing height at all.

It's what they should be doing, guys. The NTEP has so many areas to navigate it's kinda hard to keep up, but you can't compare the ratings results on one page with what is considered "normal" because that's a relative word based on the viewer's needs and growing conditions, and we (homeowners) are not the only viewers. For example, turf managers of a golf course, for example, need performance ratings at low heights, so they offer the test ratings for Schedule A (very low cut), Schedule B (med. height), and Schedule C to satisfy the needs of both their patrons - the producers who submit varieties for testing and those who want to purchase. You might also notice the grass receives very little water, and there are other minimums.

Ok, Bill, you are wrong once again. KBG grows in NC. Those NTEP ratings do not reflect the true performance of KBG in Raleigh.

Like I said, I grow KBG in my neck of the woods, it does well here - even with record high temperatures. My grass still green and growing, I'm having to mow it once a week - even during extreme temps. There are several Sod Farms growing 100% KBG, more on the western part of the state.

Grubs are a problem, and some additional waterings when mother nature does not provide. Other than that, it grows here just fine.

In fact, I'll be curious if it grows further south (anyone from Jacksonville, FL?) That might be a strech...

And BTW, the average night time temperatures in Raleigh during July is 69F NOT mid 80's! This is NOT South Florida...

Cheers.

"Ok, Bill, you are wrong once again . . . "

This post seems a bit odd.

The last time Bill posted was in March. You posted back in July. So why are you jumping on Bill now for something said over 4 months ago?

So according to your logic, the more time it goes by the less wrong Bill is...

Or maybe I wasn't aware there's a time limit...

You make no sense. Bill said something and someone replied, insn't that what a forum is about...?

If you disagreed with him, why didn't you disagree when you replied before? And if it's the first time you're disagreeing, why is he wrong again?

That's why I said it seemed a bit odd.

This thread is quickly losing its helpfulness

Adaptability and possibility are two different concepts really. If we are to talk possibility, I've no doubt someone in Florida can experiment and report success growing Midnight/II, just as Quirky does in Georgia. I can grow Zoysia in Michigan, and it will return every year. But is that practical? Adaptability is much less a relative word if you're going to have to adjust maintenance practices, redefine turf quality, and redetermine morphological expressions. Midnight and no other can perform and express its traits and characteristics according to what is customarily expected if it's treated like a warm season type turfgrass and growing in soil structure, climate, and other conditions that are not conducive. It becomes something else though it yet lives and grows. And it becomes something else for the turf manager to commit to spending more in resources than the more adapted grass type requires. I submit Bill was right and has a fantastic tall fescue lawn and has tried growing bluegrass. He wasn't willing to irrigate the bluegrass more than his tall fescue demands of him, which is more adapted to his area.