Definitely looks like there is PR in there, but I think I see some KBG as well. It can be tough sometimes to tell in pics since scale and color are usually off. PR has a very glossy back side, more prominent veins, and generally a narrower tip. A freshly mowed lawn shouldn't be "shredded" as you described. Sounds like someone needs his blade sharpened.

The pic in the 1st March 22nd post looks a whole lot like Goose grass or Orchard grass to me...

The pic in the 3rd March 22nd post showing the stand of grass with the hairy stems is crabgrass....

You really ought to head over to one of the Grassy Weed identification sites and use the tool to figure out what those grassy weeds really are. The best way is to physically pull up several plants - roots and all, bring them in and sit there at the computer and identify....

Thanks

Goose grass. I've never heard of it, but looking at a picture, it looks similar.

I pulled up a good part of a fine fescue plant from a section of lawn that was untouched and still has the original grass. Does anyone know what type of fine fescue it might be? It seems to grow in bunches, but it had spread across the majority of the lawn in recent years before the redo.

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Thanks.

Hmmm... That looks like Poa trivialis to me..

It's extremely thin, and the blades are rolled. THere are veins if you look very closely, and no midrib.

Are you mowing your grass? If you have fine fescue it shouldn't be that long if it is mowed propery. Even if that was a good picture I think it would be near impossible for anyone to tell you what kind it FF it is from appearance. If it's spreading, it is creeping red as that is the only one that spreads via rhizomes. There are plenty of pics on the internet that you can reference.

http://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/Turfgrasses/Fescue_Fine.aspx

Question:

I notice lawns everywhere in my area starting to produce seed heads this past week, including mine. It's not just annual bluegrass...KBG, PR, TF, and fine fescue...all are producing seeds.

If I were to mow the lawn as normal next weekend, would the seeds likely be mature enough to help overseed the lawn? Or would they have to stay on there for a very long time to be of any use?

PS: The TTPR is looking pretty decent lately after mowing a couple of weeks.

No. The only seeds, of the grasses you mentioned, that are viable in such a short time are poa annua seeds. Cool season turfgrass seeds need to mature and harden into the summer.

I've got some areas that will likely be destroyed by heavy equipment, and I want to save and reuse them elsewhere to fill in a couple of thin spots. How can I cut some grass out of one area of the yard for transplantation to a diferrent area, without renting a gas powered sod cutter? Is there not a manual garden tool (some sort of knife) or combination of several tools that can be used to successfully cut out relatively small sections of turf for replanting elsewhere?

Today through Thursday, I am also seeking academic information on genetics and seletive breeding programs applied to turgrass, especially tall fescue and ryegrass, If anyone has any advice or knowledge of this topic, please don't hesitate to let me know.

There are hand sod cutters. They have a bent metal shaft attached to a kidney shaped blade that is sharpened all the way around. I've never seen one for sale, but my father has one that he inherited from his father.

Just wanted to update with some photos of the grass now that it is fully established. It's due to be mowed within the next couple of days.

No color adjustments were made. The turf type rye grass is beautiful and durable. There is still a little shade in the morning from neighbors' trees.

I had a scare several weeks ago when it hit 85 degrees and sunny for a week or so last month. I almost lost the rye grass down near the pavement due to heat stress. I had to water like crazy to keep it from dying; it did go dormant for a while. But after the last couple of weeks of rain, it's looking good again. I also almost lost the remaining fine fescue as well.

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You can see some annual rye that has germinated. I'm not overly concerned about it, but it's definitely there.

Wow! It is hard to believe this thread is still so active...and on topic, heh, heh.

I have a few questions that relate to the choices and to the original issue.

How are you watering? You talked about watering like crazy and at the beginning you said it needed a crazy amount of water. Can you be much more explicit about what crazy means? How often do you water and for how long? How do you adjust watering during the cool and warm seasons?

Your favorite grass is PR but you seem to be afraid of watering it. Do you really want to live in constant fear of your lawn dying? I have a house on the edge of the Texas desert. Parts of my lawn have not been irrigated since last October when I turned off the sprinkler system (seasonal rains came). I can say I have been lucky with the timing of the rains since then, but it is also a matter of selecting the right grass and watering properly when you do water.

You posted pictures on March 27 at 21:19. In the fifth picture down, at about 1/3 down from the top and 1/3 in from the left there is a seed head starting to form. That looks like poa annua to me. Compare that to tiemco's picture from Mar 15, 12 at 19:08.

The issue of spring seeding was addressed by John at Mar 21, 12 at 10:24. I hope that resolved that issue for you. If you want to seed and already have a lawn, wait until late summer as tiemco repeatedly said at the beginning.

Your soil test should be back by now. If you will post the results here, tiemco usually volunteers to read those for you and suggest very specific materials to tune up your soil. For some corrections to work you need to start now to get finished by the end of the season. Some corrections take several seasons, so the sooner you get that done the better.

If you want to improve the quality of your garden pictures, take the pictures only in the shade (cloudy days, under trees, early morning or late afternoon, or under a portable umbrella). There is too much contrast in full sun to get good garden pictures.

About the watering:

I was really busy and the hot weather we had for a week or two sneaked up on me. So by the time I got around to watering, the grass was already going dormant. It only took half a week of 85 degree weather plus the semi-drought we had been under for the month prior. Some of the rye near the pavement almost died out. Thankfully, the plants regenerated.

I had to water as thoroughly as possible without drowining everything. I water manually, using sprinklers and also hand-held sprayers to target certain areas I can't hit with teh sprinklers. It can be a lot or work.

The grass is just starting to show the earliest signs of wanting water this afternoon. It's going to rain tomorrow night, so it should survive.

I haven't been able to do the soil test yet. I have a coupon for a free pH test, so I am going to start there. I will be off next week, but I've been busy up through the end of this week, including tonight.

As for pictures: I'm actually a pro photographer, but I was just too lazy to wait for good light for a few pictures that are just going up online to show my lawn! I didn't think people were going to evaluate the quality of these pictures, so I slacked off. I metered for the shaded areas and let the highlights blow. I love the color of the shaded areas though. It's a wonderful green.

btw, the March 27th pictures...they're not my grass.

More on watering:

I know it's not the greatest idea to water in the middle of the afternoon in hot weather, but I had to do it, or the grass would have died out. Ditto for watering around sunset, but I had to it some days as well. I tried to time it so it would dry out at least partially though before night though.

I try not to water on 2 consecutive days, but if it's dormant and nearly dying, I have to. It had turned brown near the curb in fact.

Ideally I'd be watering in the morning, but that just isn't possible. Again, it's a bit of work, turning off the home filter system, moving around hoses and sprinklers, setting them up, adjusting the flow, setting the timer, and then going out, moving it and doing it again every 15-60 minutes, then handwatering certain places, etc. I've been just using a single sprinkler because I don't want to deal with a bunch of hoses all over the lawn.

When I water, I just go by eye and feel. I can tell roughly based on the look and feel of the grass and soil surface whether I've watered for the right duration.

I think also that a big part of the drying and heat stress issue is highly compacted soil. The soil was not graded properly prior to seeding; in fact, a Bobcat was used, and it really compacted the soil. All I can do is core aerate this fall prior to overseeding, I guess.

One thing you can do for better water penetration on soil is spray it with Baby Shampoo, or basic clear shampoo without a lot of additives, in a hose end sprayer (I use cheap VO5 or white rain, it works fine and your lawn smells great). I have some areas near the street that are the first to show drought stress. The areas are somewhat hydrophobic, water runs off them into the road, but after a few shampoo treatments I get much better penetration. Give it a try, it will cost you almost nothing. 3 oz. per gallon, or dilute it 100% and go 6 oz per gallon. After you shampoo the areas, give them a light watering to work it in a bit.

Watering midday when the weather is hot and dry isn't a huge problem, in fact it cools the grass down, but you don't want to do your major waterings at that time. Save that for morning before the sun rises.

tiemco,

Slowly but surely making progress. Just had a pH test done, and it was 6.0 in the important areas. Ideally we want it to be 7, right?

Most cool season turfgrasses prefer soil that is slightly acidic, 6.3-6.8 is good since it's very hard to hit a number exactly.

Getting back to watering, I'm guessing you don't know exactly how long you watered or how much you applied. You mentioned 15-60 minutes. Do you know how much your sprinkler can put out in that time? One hose type sprinkler cannot do much in an hour. A good way to measure is to put out some cat food cans. Time how long it takes to fill a can. That's how long you should be watering. Do that once every 2 weeks this time of year and gradually move toward once a week in the summer heat. Then in the cooler months ease back to watering once a month. Your grass does not need the water in the winter but the soil does.

I'm not at all worried about watering in the afternoon. I do it all the time. The only issue is evaporation, and as tiemco points out, if your goal is to cool the lawn, evaporation is what you want.

Bobcats cannot compact the soil unless the soil is saturated with water. They can't even make it hard. What they can do is help settle the soil to an extent by driving over it repeatedly. In other words, don't blame anything on the Bobcat. What was the Bobcat supposed to be doing? Grading? The problem with soil that will not accept moisture is a lack of fungal population. Baby shampoo seems to allow water to penetrate and the result lasts a good long time. Being a naturist I like to believe that having deep moisture for extended periods of time allows the fungi to repopulate. In any case I used shampoo last summer and my lawn is still very soft when watered.

Well, as an update: last week and the week before, we had a ton of rain. Unfortunately, this set off the red thread in many places. It invaded both the ryegrass and fine fescue. The bluegrass wasn't really affected. So now there are a bunch of brownish areas (probably 100 small areas) from where the red thread was a couple of weeks ago. The entire lawn was green before this! But it dried out pretty well today, considering it was around 80 and sunny. So in another couplf of weeks, the brown areas will hopefully be gone.

Now, there have been some trucks going parts of the lawn, and there's going to be a really heavy one (over 30 tons) coming. How should one mow in order to results in the least amount of lawn damage? Initially I was thinking to cut a little on the low side. But then I thought that maybe leaving it longer than normal would be better, because it would provide a cushion and maybe prevent much of the plants from being torn out. I was thinking that by leaving it longer in this way, then after the trucks are gone, I could then just rake everything up (to get rid of loose blades and unmat the ones that are still attached...and immediately follow with the mower, and mow a bit lower than normal to clean up the damage after. (This is ryegrass.) Advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

I would worry more about the truck leaving deep ruts in your yard. Personally I don't think mowing height will have any importance on what a 30 ton truck does to your grass.

What is the best way to get rid of tire tracks? Rototill the affected areas, rake and put new topsoil down before reseeding later this year?

If you know you have big trucks driving on your lawn, stop watering a week ahead. When the soil dries out it should get hard enough to support the weight of the trucks without hurting anything.

If you already have ruts, don't rototill or bring in any topsoil. Use what you have. Break it up. Take off the high spots and move them into the low spots. Once everything settles, you should not have any holes or hills.

Roger that. Thanks for the advice. Been raining like a storm lately (Tiemco can echo that). Hopefully enough of a chance for the soil to dry out before the trucks come back. First time it was dry enought that not much happened, thankfully. Keeping my fingers crossed.

In the meantime, I want to start thinking about grass selection (Tall Fescue and Kentucky Bluegrass) for some areas I'm going to redo later this year. Full soil test is something I'm going to do in the next few weeks, just haven't had the time yet.

As far as bluegrass, I'm looking for something that is not a compact type, and has medium to medium-coarse leaf texture, dense tillering and moderately aggressive rhizomic spreading habit habit, deep rooting, good disease resistance, dark to medium green color, upright growth habit, and can take both wet and dry spells. Full sun to partially shady in some areas. Two to three cultivars that I can purchase would be ideal, and then I can mix them. I need a good drought resistant cultivar or two in some areas. I dislike the look of the "compact" types though.

For tall fescue, I've had some great suggestions already. But if anyone has any other suggestions, let me know. I want something that has good density, spreads readily for fesuce, dark green, fine texture, and durable. A few drought prone areas here, too.

If it was only that easy Lawn Hobby. Picking cultivars isn't like a salad bar, where you can select individual traits for your "ideal" grass, you have to select from what's out there. Compact types are not dwarf types, the majority of KBG falls into compact classification, and they also produce some of the nicest cultivars. If you eliminate the compact types (compact, compact america, and compact midnight) then you will have a fairly short list to choose from. I'm not sure how you can say you dislike the looks of the compact types...have you visited the NTEP trial sites? Also drought tolerance refers to grass that does well in periods of no rain or irrigation, not sure how you can have some areas of drought and others of non drought. KBG by nature is not deep rooting, especially if you have hard or high clay soil. Off the top of my head, Bewitched is one you should be looking at, as it has shade tolerance, great color, medium texture, great drought tolerance, and good disease tolerance. There are others, but you will really have to scan the NTEP's to see which ones appeal most to you.

For TTTF I like Bullseye, as it has done very well in the NTEP's. I have experience with a few cultivars, and now that mine are a few years old, they do spread a bit. If you want one labeled as a "spreading" TTTF then take a look at the LS series (Firecracker, Titanium, and Spyder) as well as the SRP series of seed (Rhambler, Third Millenium, Traverse). Most tall fescue is pretty shade tolerant, but avoid the ones that tested poorly in the NTEP's. The info is all there, it's a great resource that cost a lot of money to do, but free for your use.

I was assuming that compact was basically similar to dwarf. That's how I've seen them advertised...for mowing two inches and lower. But you say compact doesn't really mean this. What exactly does it mean? This has got to be the most confusing term I've run into so far.

On the same theme, how can I use NTEP data to figure out the blade width of a cultivar. All it says is how a type ranks, but I don't know if a more "ideal" texture means finer blades or not. I've seen some KBG that is very fine and very low growing. I don't want that type. I have some right now are probably older cultivars, and they are nice and thick. Their blades are medium texture even on small plants that have rhizomed off of others. They are also medium to dark green.

What about the original midnight (non compact)? Is that something one can even purchase today? I believe when I was looking the other week, I came across Midnight, America, and Bewitched, as well as a few others that sounded good. So what you're recommending is agreeing with what I've come up with so far.

Is the LS on the Fescue something you have to look for (i.e. are there non-LS versions with the same names?). Wouldn't want to go the wrong direction!

tiemco,

See this page: http://www.bluegrasses.com/info/midnight.html
That is one that was confusing me about compact/dwarf.

I also came across Bedazzled, Dragon, Arc, Princeton 105, Moonshine, and SPF 30, in my research. Any opinions on any of these? not all seem to be listed in NTEP.

There are areas in the yeard that get flooded and stay wet for a while, and other areas that dry out quickly. Those are the drought prone areas in the heat of summer when there is no reain for a week or two.

Compact does not equal dwarf. Compact cultivars are used by the majority of people who value a beautiful KBG lawn, and they grow to normal lawn heights, and generally require weekly mowing during the spring and fall growing season, and in some cases biweekly mowings are necessary. Midnight is still a great cultivar that is used by many people. Midnight II is supposedly an improved version, but it's probably more about patent protection than anything else. Many people use Midnight even though there are better compact midnights on the market. It is cheaper than most seed because it is off patent and anyone can grow and sell it. I would probably stay away from it since it might be too dark for your TTTF, although Bewitched is on the dark side as well, but not like Midnight. You might want to skip the compact midnights altogether, but there are a few that aren't super dark.

Apparently you haven't looked at the NTEP KBG trials in depth, since there are categories that rate blade width, and growth habit (prostrate vs. upright).

Yes, look for Firecracker LS. I believe there was a Firecracker, but I haven't seen it for sale on any of the seed seller sites. Same thing goes for Rhambler SRP, 3rd Millenium SRP, etc. Don't expect a tremendous amount of spreading, but it does happen to a degree when the grass is mature.

Bedazzled is a good cultivar, although it is not as dark as some people would like and tends to wake up early in the season (which is not a bad thing, but it can get a jump on slower cultivars). Most of the other ones you mentioned are older, and have been testing in previous NTEP trials. They are OK, but have fallen out of favor since newer ones outperform them.

Grass is a plant, and it requires sun, water, fertlizer, and good soil. Take away one or more of those, and it won't do well. If you have areas that don't get rain for a week or two in the summer, then you should irrigate to prevent stress, and dormancy in the first year.

Very informative, tiemco. That clears up the terminology issue. Thanks. Midnight will most certainly be one of the two or three cultivars I select. I've heard a lot of good.

So far, I've spent a lot of time on TTTF on NTEP. I haven't spent much time on KBG yet. I didn't realize the rankings/categories were so different.

As for irrigation, of course...the idea being to water once per week if needed during lack of rain...and let the water really soak in rather than watering lightly; I know. Not planning to let anything go brown if I can help it!

Comprehensive soil testing is the next thing on the agenda. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.

Just want to say thanks to everyone for advice so far, especially tiemco. I'm at the point now where the front lawn finally looks good. Compare these photos to the ones from March 14th. It has really thickened up a lot since then. This is turf type PR. Hopefully it's as healthy as it looks.

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What is the general consensus on recuperative ability of cool season grasses completely covered with a layer (two inches or so) of soil? Since photo synthesis and air exchange can't take place anymore, does it die totally? Or is it likely that some of it will break through the surface and continue gorwing?

It's not recommended as most, if not all, of the grass will die.

Thanks.

Now, not sure if we can really generalize the different species like this, but I have a question...is there a particular cool season grass species that best tolerates extreme stress/abuse?

What I mean is: being mowed close and frequently with a dull blade (1.25 inch height every three days, even during the heat of summer) when planted in a drought-prone burn zone that is entirely surrounded by asphalt?

Now, I'm not planning to stress grass in that way. (I always mow 2.5 to 3 inches, and tend to water when needed.) But I have a potential application in mind where that type of tolerance might be useful. I just want to know hypothetically for now, if there is any particular species that would tolerate such a situation better than the others. I was thinking maybe one of the newer turf-type tall fescues. But they need to be cut much higher as I understand it. It seems some of the bluegrasses can tolerate close cutting, but I'm not sure about the heat from the asphalt. In my own experience with ryegrass, it does decently well near pavement if watered when needed, but it doesn't tolerate the stress of close mowing very well.

Basically I would like to know what one would plant if looking for the most durable, drought-resistant, abuse-tolerating species of the three. now, before I get cross-examined or laughed off the forum, I just want to say I'm totally serious about this question, as crazy as it might sound. (I have a potential situation in mind in which those characteristics can be very useful.)

Thanks.

First off, if you are going to mow your grass, you should use a sharp blade, especially on closely mowed turf. If you can't sharpen your blade, or refuse too, then that's just being lazy. As far as closely mowed turf, tall fescue is the worst choice. The lowest they go on the NTEP's is 1.6-2.0 inches. Both KBG and PR have cultivars that can tolerate low mowing. PR is used for fairways and tee's on some golf courses in the north, and almost exclusively when overseeding southern courses in the fall and winter. KBG also has cultivars that can be kept at fairway heights, and you have the benefit of spreading to fill in bare spots. NTEP tests for fairway heights, they call it Schedule A. The heights they cut each site is given in the beginning of the reports. Any time you maintain grass at low heights will require more attention and resources, there's really no such thing as a low maintenance cool season grass you can cut low.

Thank you for that. Confrimed what I thought. Again, I would not personally do that...but when I am away, I don't have full control over what actually happens in one specific area by the road. I'll look at schedule "A" recommended PR and KGB for that (small) area.

And I forgot to ask:

When a bunchgrass type of plant gets larger over time (such as in a place where some spaces have opened up), how does that influence its tolerance to such variables (e.g. close mowing) if at all?

Another question I have is in regards to collecting and utilizing using grass clippings (which are typically returned to the soil during mowing) as a covering when seeding in August. Is that feasible? I'd rather not use store-bought straw because of the weed seed inevitably in most of it, the cost, and the hassel. We're on a hill, and the seed will tend to wash away if I don't cover it a bit.

The problem with using grass clippings though is a major one. I don't know how to accumulate enough. I was thinking of starting to bag my grass clippings a month and a half before I start seeding to get enough. I was thinking I'd dry them out in the driveway for a few hours on a hot/sunny day. That's all well and good. But then there's a storage problem. Even if I could get enough, and dry it out, I have no place to store it all. If I were to put it into paper leaf bags, it would just get went when it rains. Also, I'm wondering if decomposition might still be unavoidable even if dried out thoroughly and kept dry.

Any idea on the feasibility of using grass clippings for said purpose, the feasability of avoiding decomposition during a month of storage, and how to keep it dry?

Thanks in advance!

It's not feasible. Save yourself a ton of trouble, go to Lesco/JDL, and buy yourself a few bales of shredded straw. It's relatively easy to spread, doesn't have to be removed, provides OM to your soil and some erosion control. You will get a few wheat plants, but they will be minimal, and won't return next year.

A thin layer of peat moss, thinly applied and lightly watered after application can be a good seed free cover.

Good advice.

Now I want to share with you all these two photos of the same area. The first photo was taken on March 14th:

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And the second photo was taken today of the same area:

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It's amazing what a little TLC can do...there was no reseeding done between when these two photos were taken. THere are still bare spots in this area, but it is much improved. And this was virtually all PR, no KBG to speak of!

Update:

Finally had time to do soil testing today. Just mailed it out.

Also started to Roundup some weedy areas.

In another week I'm going to off, and plan to start my late summer/early fall lawn rennovation projects...acquiring materials, etc.

In the meaintime, I want to start exploring places to purchase seed (TTTF and KBG). I haven't yet picked cultivars, but I would like to know who are the best, most reputable dealers from whom I can order the seed.

Thanks.

Well, I finally did it...overseeded the 10-month-old TTPR/KBG lawn with TTTF and KBG...and it worked! So it can be done...but read on to find out how I did it...I was quite careful due to what people on here had told me about the PR messing with the germination of other seed due to allelopathy.

I did this a little over a month ago now. I actually prefer the lawn consisting of a mixture of these three species, guess I'm odd since no one else here seems to like that three-way mix).

We're at ~4.5 weeks now. The existing PR thankfully did not prevent or delay germination of the new seed. The TTTF started to come up within 6 days, and was fully up in about 3 weeks time. The KBG just started coming up last week.

Perhaps it wored so well because the PR was only 10 months old. Or b/c it got heat stressed. Or b/c I mowed it to ~1.8 inches before hand on the last mowing before starting the project. I also thinned the lawn fairly drastically prior to over seeding, by utilizing heavy core aeration (three passes) and also verticutting (two passes). I brought up a lot of dead and living grass in the process.

I'm currently touching up the few spots that need it with a little extra seed.

Here are some photos of the project (same area plus or minus a foot or two) at the various stages for reference (I do consider it a successful outcome even if it was my first time doing it and I learned a lot!):

The top photo is the before photo, taken on 8/17/12. The middle photo is about ten days after overseeding, on 8/29/12. You can see the existing PR and KBG, and the TTTF was in the midst of germination, but is hard to see in the pic. And the bottom photo is from 9/21/12, taken right after the first mowing and application of starter fertilizer (I decided to hold off on the fertilizer until after germination so as to slow the growth of the existing grass to prevent it from overtaking the new grass. I'm glad I did this).

Here is what I used for overseeding:

-TTTF (approx 75% Firecracker LS and 25% Bullseye)
-KBG (approx 33% each of America, Bewitched, and Rugby II)
-A low amount of the existing TTPR seed blend (see below) was mixed with the fescue and KBG seed; I only used this in those areas that were really bare after the verticutting/raking. In this way, I created a uniform lawn in the bare spots that blended with the old grass.

(The existing lawn prior to overseeding was a blend of KBG and three cultivars of TTPR sourced from from Allied Seed: ASP6005, ASP6002, and ASP 6001.)

btw, something very interesting started to happen around the 2.5 week point...

The existing KBG started to spread as the new grass germinated. Between the new grass and the existing KBG, the lawn is looking fairly thick now (see bottom photo in previous post). I was surprised how quickly it is filling in...I brought up so much living grass with the machinery, and it was really sparse after. But not anymore...it almost looks like an established lawn! And the cool thing is that the percentages of the grass types shifted just as I was hoping...beforehand, it was about 70% ryegrass, 30% bluegrass. Now it's probably 35% bluegrass, 30% Fescue, and 35% Rye. Apparently, tearing up the soil mechanically stimulated the existing bluegrass to spread aggressively. I never would have expected that; it was an unintended benefit of the process. Very interesting.

Very nice results. I would attribute the KBG spreading more to the daily waterings and prime growing conditions more than anything else, but I suppose the power raking could stimulate some spread, and rhizomes only pop up in thin or bare areas for the most part.

Thanks tiemco. The results are of course due in part to the high quality seed, and the fact that I followed most of the advice you and others gave me...not to mention my deication with the watering. So thanks for that.