The old lawn didn't fair too well. It needed a crazy amount of water in the summer, and even so, the fine fescue would just shrivel up and turn brown in the hottest weeks. It also matted down when mowing. I have no idea how we got so much fine fescue over time...perhaps it was an aggressive type. It had basically taken over everything.

But the fine fescue is history now, thankfully. We reseeded from scratch (it was all dirt after the tree work) with mostly turf type Perennial Rye last fall. (We did have some soil brought in for the front yard.)

I am going to have to over seed this year, but am unsure whether I should try in the Spring, or just wait until late summer/early fall. (Especially since we're going to put pre-emergent crab grass control down next season).

And now that we have no more trees, I need grass that will stand up to heat/drought without watering every day. I know the Ryegrass is supposed to like sun, but I've also heard it can dry out in the summer. I want to over seed the sunniest areas with a turf type tall fescue and bluegrass blend that is suitable for my area. Here is what I'm looking for:

1. TTTF that can withstand heat/drought
2. Absolute finest texture possible in a TTTF (some seem pretty coarse compared to bluegrass; I'd like one with a blade width and texture that looks the most like bluegrass)
3. Preferably some spreading ability in the TTTF

Regarding #2 above: Is there any TTTF that has a blade width equal to or finer than unimproved, generic bluegrass? What about with a more pronounced midrib and with less of the saw tooth edge of K-31 and older turf type cultivars? because, let's face it, the old TTTF was just a mini K-31.

And in my bluegrass, I want:

1. Heat tolerance and traffic tolerance
2. Not as aggressive; don’t want it to kill off the rye and fescue, but it should still be able to recover well. I’d prefer upright growth to lateral growth though.
3. Blade width and texture not so important (it has to mix aesthetically well with the coarser TTTF, so I don't need or want elite cultivars with super fine blades).

Ideally, I'd find TTTF and Kentucky bluegrass that have the same blade width and nearly the same texture.

I know it's a lot...but I greatly appreciate any answers!

I am in Southern CT.

As for killing off and starting over...that is what we already did. The entire lawn was demolished in the late summer; it was just dirt after.

The TTPR is by no means established yet. It only got to about 2 inches in most spots before the winter. However, I noticed new blades just starting to come up this past week as it gets warmer.

I really would like to overseed the TTPR with KGB and TTTF. I've heard that it can work as long as the Rye is not too dense/established, which it not yet. I would like the grass to become balanced more in the favor of KGB and TTTF over time after several overseeds.

But I am also unsure as to whether pre-emergent crabgrass control will prevent a successfull spring overseed.

The question remains...spring or fall for overseeding?

"Do you really want to overseed a few times in order to get a lawn that is predominantly TTTF/KBG with some PR mixed in?"

Yes, and I do not mind overseeding several years in a row. Plus, while most of the year does have the TTPR now, there are some areas that have only bluegrass right now.

The reason I'm asking about the overseeding in spring, is because the ryegrass, which was just planted in October, is very thin right now, and I was thinking if I can catch it before it gets dense, and before it gets too warm, I might have a better shot at getting the other grasses to take. Then again, once pre-emergent goes down (which I think is really a necessity this year) I can't overseed for a while, right? Or is this not the case?

As I said, we already killed 75% in area of the yard off last fall. And it's not a tiny yard, so there was quite a bit of work involved in soil raking, spreading seed, and top dressing. It took weeks. Watering was the fun part. I really am opposed to started over AGAIN for the second year in a row. I'd rather rent a machine, do some overseeding this fall, see how it goes, and then repeat next year. Perhaps we made a poor decision going with primarily TTPR in our grass mix (75% TTPR / 25% KBG). But we have to live with it now. I just need to get some fescue and blue mixed in somehow for heat tolerance and regeneration ability.

Also: I've got at least one fairly large area that was not included in last fall's rennovation. It is currently a bunch of patches of bluegrass. I'd like to overseed with tall fescue alone in that area, as there is already enough blue (and no rye). This area gets full sun and always used to burn up. Any suggestions on what type of tall fescue would hold up best in that area? It's on a hill next to the driveway.

For TTTF: http://ntep.org/data/tf06/tf06_11-8/tf06_11-8.pdf
pages 45 (genetic color), 51 (leaf texture), 74 (Drought tol), and 94 (Summer stress). I am particularly impressed by Bullseye.
For KBG: http://ntep.org/data/kb05/kb05_11-10f/kb05_11-10f.pdf
pages 49 (color), 55 (leaf texture), 75 (% summer cover), 128 (summer stress). I would not pick the darkest green cultivars, as they might not be compatible with the TTTF.

Now, how do I go about the soil testing?

And as far as bluegrass goes, we currently have some blugrass in our lawn that is actually bluish green in color like the name suggests, has a pretty thick blade (1/8th inch), etc. Is this likely a regular, unimproved kentucky bluegrass? It's NOT orchardgrass (I have a clump or two of that as well). However, after having seen some of the improved bluegrasses, I have to say they look almost nothing alike. I guess grass has come a long way in recent years.

KBG isn't named bluegrass because of a bluish green color. It is named after the blue flowers it produces if left to grow to flowering height (remember this grass was named a long time ago, and now a lot of the improved cultivars seed without flowering). Some pictures of your bluegrass would help, but I thought you said you planted some KBG last year. Is the bluegrass you are looking at the stuff you planted or has it always been in your yard? Most elite KBG is dark green, with a few cultivars offering a bluish tint.

interesting about the namign of bluegrass.

I am going to have to have a good long look at those data sheets.

As for the bluegrass, there are sections of the backyard that have the existing combination of bluegrass and fine fescue that has been here right along. They were left untouched last summer. The bluegrass there is quite thick bladed. It's definitely bluegrass, as it has the boat-shaped tip, and is everywhere. But it's a green-blue color. It has a defined midrib, and each blade is folded at an approx 130 degree angle. It also sometimes gets infected by a white coating. Perhaps the plants got thicker when the lawn thinned out.

And I'm still trying to understand why our old lawn became mostly fine fescue over the years. Are there some types of fine fescue that tend to take over?

-ASP6001
-ASP6003
-ASP6006

Not sure if you're familiar with these.

I am a photographer; I can get a good picture of the grass. But I will likely have to wait for full green-up to do so.

Speaking of green-up, there was a just noticeable contrast between today and yesterday as far as new grass (rye) coming up.

And speaking of close-ups, can anyone point me an extreme close-up of a single blade of one of teh latest TTTF varieities? I'm curious what the texture will be like...if the veins will be much less pronounced than in K-31.

I do have some other photos.

This is the current state of the new TTPR. It only grew to an inch or so before the winter. Still pretty thin looking. Ground is compacted and needs a good core aeration next fall before overseeding:

Closeup:

This is the area near the driveway that mostly died off. You can see some KBG spreading to try to fill in. This is the area I want to overseed with only TTTF, and it needs to be able to tolerate full sun and drought. You can see the remmnants of crabgrass from last summer. I'm sure there are tons of seeds just waiting for the warmer weather. Hence the need for pre-emergent to stop the cycle:

Some K-31 that's growing in one area. I think it's ugly, but there isn't enough to bother me. This stuff survives heat stress like I don't know what! I'm not sure if the spreading in this area is considered tillering or rhizome spreading:

You can see how the leaves are rolled:

Man, is this stuff ever thick-bladed and veiny. I'd love to see a similar closeup of a blade of the newest, best TTTF for comparison:

How can it be annual bluegrass this time of year? This stuff stayed pretty green all winter. Would annual bluegrass behave like that? It also clearly spread over the fall and winter via rhizomes. Now, being new to all this, I still have trouble telling the difference between certain grasses, such as turf-type bluegrasses like Kentucky and the annual variety. I'll have to defer to you on this one, and perhaps get a better closeup at some point so you can verify what it is.

Yeah, soil test.

As far as the rye grass: I think it will get thicker this spring...but hopefully not so dense that I can't effectively overseed with KBG and TTTF in those areas.

I will try to get a closeup at some point. Would you be able to tell from that, even if there are no seed heads, or does that get kind of iffy? I have however seen that type of seed head in the past, so it's definitely possible there is some annual bluegrass mixed in. What was it that led you to beleive you were looking at annual bluegrass mixed into the ryegrass rather than Kentucky bluegrass?

Again, it's definitely possible, because some of the seed mixes used at various times, including one used by a lawn contractor (contractor's mix) the previous year in both of those areas, probably contained unnamed Kentucky bluegrass varieties. Even our TTPR mixture had 25% unnamed Kentucky Bluegrass in it. It's not a leap that there could have been a good bit of annual bluegrass in with the unnamed KBG seed (even though the weed seed content of that mix was very low).

Is annual bluegrass generally thinner balded than KBG?

I'm not going to go nuts over some annual bluegrass, as long as it blends decently with everything else, it's not a concern.

Thanks again, as always. Looking forward to a close-up of your Bullseye TTTF.

Trust me, it really doesn't blend with KBG or TTTF at all. The better your lawn gets, the more you hate it. It is a prolific seed producer, and the seeds are viable almost as soon as they appear, and can lay dormant for years. Later in the spring, they will fill your yard with white seedheads. It even seeds at the lowest mowing heights, I'm talking putting green heights. In fact some golf courses gave up fighting it and just let it take over their greens. Many great golf courses have poa putting greens, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, Oakmont, to name a few. My lawn isn't Bullseye, it's a blend of Firecracker LS, Faith, and Cochise IV.

I don't think that tall grass with the dime is KBG, it looks too thick, and has too many veins. The shorter stuff in the foreground looks more like KBG, but it could just be a younger version of the tall stuff.

The one I posted more recently http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii597/Lawn_Hobby/8025-1.jpg ...I was under assumption it's orchard grass. It, too, reminds me or wrigling green worms.

Well, hopefully all those clumps of bluegrass on the hill are not annual bluegrass. We'll know for sure once I take the closeups and post them here for you to look at. Hopefully tomorrow. I'm not optimistic though. I have a feeling you're right. But give me a chance to get a closer shot...

Here is a dime among the TTTF.

Here it is on top of the TTTF, the reflection off the dime obviously threw off the light meter in the camera.

Here are some blades next to a dime, taken inside:

Again, these blades will thicken up a bit, but nothing like K-31.

However, it's much smaller, finer textured, darker in color. I still think KBG is subjectively more attractive due to its shape, but TTTF will do when mixed with bluegrass. I could really use the durability in the areas that are the most dry. Yes, I know...soil test.

Now, just wondering...what does LS stand for or mean?

And in your opinion, and/or experience, what are the biggest relative advantages and disadvantages among Firecracker LS, Bullseye, Faith, and Cochise IV (I know you said you haven't tried the Bullseye yet, right?) And are there any other specific cultivars you haven't mentioned yet that you believe are good in the CT climate and/or have specific positive attributes?

Finally, how can I evaluate texture in the NTEP data so as to select for the finest blades and least prominent veins? I'm not sure what their subjective texture rating really means. Is it blade width? Likewise, how can I ensure I find a bluegrass that is not overly fine-bladed so it will mix well with the fescue?

LS stands for lateral spread, as this cultivar is supposed to have higher rhizome activity, and aggressive tillering.

For cultivar choice, you have to look at the NTEP's. When I chose mine, those three were some of the top performers at the time. They also scored well in other areas that I was concerned about, like disease and shade tolerance. That was in 2009. Since then the NTEP's changed a bit, and other cultivars did a bit better as they matured. Bullseye really came into its own since I did my renovation. The NTEP's are a lot of info, and you can look at them for hours trying to figure out what you want. It's tough because the thinnest bladed cultivar might not be the darkest green, or it might not do well in the shade, or it might be susceptible to brown patch. The reason I like Bullseye is because it was the best performer for pretty much every trial for turf quality, does very well with traffic, is at the top for blade width, good winter color, great drought tolerance (2nd best), doesn't get red thread, great resistance to brown patch, good summer stress, etc. It's not the darkest green, but it's no slouch. So you have to weigh all the data a determine what would be best for you.

Finally if you are so concerned with blade texture, and blades with the least prominent veins, maybe you should just grow all KBG.

It might be possible to get away with all KBG, as there isn't much shade left in most places. But drought/temp/sun tolerance is still an issue. Can any current KBG compete with tall fescue (such as Bullseye) in these areas?

When you run your finger down those blades on your tall fescue, does it feel rough/toothy like K-31? Or is it smooth/smoother?

There is a lot of misinformation about TTTF vs. KBG. KBG loves sun (actually most grasses do including TTTF), it prefers full sun. Yankee stadium's field is KBG (as are the Mets, and many others), and most golf course roughs above the transition zone are KBG. Once established KBG and TTTF need about the same amount of water. While it's true that TTTF can grow deep roots, this will only happen in certain soils, so it's drought tolerance is often overstated. KBG can go dormant in the summer if there is no rain. TTTF doesn't have this ability to the extent KBG does and will die in extended drought. KBG is not a fragile grass, it can be grown into the transition zone (TTTF generally handles the transition zone better however), you are in southern CT, so it isn't even an issue, and it can tolerate cold temps better than most grasses. It also spreads via rhizomes, TTTF's spreading ability it minimal.

While the blades of all TF have serrated edges, in the newer TTTF it is not something you can feel to any great extent. It is definitely barefoot grass.

Btw, is TTPR and TTTF not a good combination to have in one's lawn? Would the TF tend to look clumpy in the PR since the PR is so much finer textured and darker green?

Now, after seeing the textures of the various grasses, I'm thinking maybe the best course of action is to overseed with KBG/TTTF only in the non-ryegrass areas for now, and then in the TTPR area, to overseed with only KBG. I think this is in line with what you originally suggested. Except maybe for the TTPR area right near the curb that is most drought and stress prone...mixing some TTTF in there sounds like a good idea for durability/heat reasons. Then again, as you said, bluegrass is no sluch under those conditions, either. Trying to figure this all out...

I guess what it comes down to, other than the clumpiness issues, is: is it easier to overseed existing KBG with new TF, or the other way around (and have it look even)? Or does order not matter? (Thinking about if I have to overseed 2 years in a row, which order would be best.)

Again, I don't see any seed heads, just some thatch. These plants are as representative as any on that area; all look roughly the same, and most likely came from contractor's seed planted almost 2 years ago.

No, for an overseed cut the grass as low as possible without scalping. Then seed the area with a broadcast spreader. Then run the slit seeder with no seed (the type that is like a power rake, not the disc type). You could use a verticutter/power rake as well. Or you could cut the grass, power rake, seed, then topdress. Or you could just mow, seed and topdress. Some people don't even topdress. A lot of people feel power raking brings up a lot of weed seeds, but I feel if it's not too deep, it's fine.

"Btw, is TTPR and TTTF not a good combination to have in one's lawn? Would the TF tend to look clumpy in the PR since the PR is so much finer textured and darker green?"

A mixed lawn can look very good if the consistency is very even, and the color of the cultivars is fairly consistent. You will probably have some consistency issues.

"Now, after seeing the textures of the various grasses, I'm thinking maybe the best course of action is to overseed with KBG/TTTF only in the non-ryegrass areas for now, and then in the TTPR area, to overseed with only KBG. I think this is in line with what you originally suggested. Except maybe for the TTPR area right near the curb that is most drought and stress prone...mixing some TTTF in there sounds like a good idea for durability/heat reasons. Then again, as you said, bluegrass is no sluch under those conditions, either. Trying to figure this all out...

"I guess what it comes down to, other than the clumpiness issues, is: is it easier to overseed existing KBG with new TF, or the other way around (and have it look even)? Or does order not matter? (Thinking about if I have to overseed 2 years in a row, which order would be best.)"
KBG is the hardest to overseed due to it's slower germination/establishment. One thing you can do, is cut the grass as low as possible. Then round-up all the grass. Then in a few hours, or the next day do all your seeding work. The round-up won't affect germination, and in two weeks all your old grass will be dead, and you should have most of your TTTF germinated, and a good deal of KBG pushing up. The grass that is dying will hold the soil together, then as it dies it will decompose, which is good for the soil. I know you don't want to kill everything, but it's no more work except for the round up, and it ensures an consistent lawn. What kind of square footage are we talking?

In my latest pictures, do you think those are KBG plants or annual BG plants? Note that each clump appears to be several plants, and I think the only reason they are clumped like this may be due to the fact that most of the lawn in this area died out due summer stress, infection from rain, and there is maybe some nearby rhizome spreading that happened over the mild fall and winter. What do you think these are? If you need more photos, I can get them late this week.

I'm still interested in overseeding, and will likely add in KBG and TTTF in various proportions in different areas, but my all-time favorite grass turns out to be TTPR after all this time. Their TTPR looks like mostly better cultivars than the one on our hill, but maybe the TTPR planted last October (I'll have to look up the specific cultivars on NTEP) will be similar when all is said and done. Their grass is already greening up so fast the past few days...and it didn't turn brown until like December...amazing...though I guess they might have some KBG mixed in also, as not all the blades have shiny backsides, and some are more boat-shaped than others, and some don't have visible veins.

Next is Spring seeding... Yes.. We have all been bit by the "Spring Bug"... Yes - the stores are full of seed.... It's the 2nd WORST time of the year following Summer to seed cool season grasses unless you live up in Zone 4 and your Summer ends on August 1st.... The grass doesn't have enough time to become established before the onslaught of hot, humid weather and the bugs and disease it brings... and watering it a ton only speeds up the Fungus and bug problems... The starter fertilizer will fuel the disease fires and you will suffer heavy losses... Total loss of spring seeded Cool season grass isn't that uncommon in the transition zone...

NOW is the time for planning and preparation... Get your soil tests done. Work on amending your soil... Get everything in order.. Find a supplier who stocks the seed varieties you are after and start figuring up how much you will need... And then you will have success with a properly timed Fall overseed....

Thanks

The thing I'm concerned about is, doesn't ryegrass tend to go brown due to heat stress in mid summer more readily than bluegrass or fescue? You really have to give it a lot of water, right? I don't want to have a brown lawn in the middle of the summer! Is ryegrass alone considered a top quality turfgrass for summer? It's great because it combines some of the best attributes of bluegrass and tall fescue, but I'm still concerned and need mroe information before I can figure out what to do. it's amazing how similar ryegrass looks to bluegrass; I originally though tit was going to be more like fescue in appearance.

btw, a neighbor planted some seed near the yard border a week ago, and this stuff it already really high. Is this the dreaded annual ryegrass? It's light green, similar in appearance to K-31, but lighter green and not shiny, floppier blades, stemmy, rough to the touch, veiny, no midrib, and is growing in bunches very fast.

Those two shots from my last post are of the same grass. There are many bunches of this stuff all over his lawn now, and they weren't there until he put the seed down. I'm really dumbfounded.

Here is a pull back shot showing a roughly two square feet of his new lawn. Excuse the quality; I had to get it quickly. It might actually be more like two weeks now since it germinated, whatever this grass is; I wasn't keeping track of time that accurately to be honest.

Two more shots of it:

One of the blades:

I raked the front yard lightly the other week, and it has been greening up more evenly. Fertilizer went down today. I'm hoping the TTPR fills in more over the next few weeks. I hear it's fairly aggressive stuff this time of year. And teh cultivars I have in there now, while not the abolute top of the heap, are pretty respectable. Time to get the mower blade sharpened and work on getting soil samples.

The pic in the 3rd March 22nd post showing the stand of grass with the hairy stems is crabgrass....

You really ought to head over to one of the Grassy Weed identification sites and use the tool to figure out what those grassy weeds really are. The best way is to physically pull up several plants - roots and all, bring them in and sit there at the computer and identify....

Thanks

Thanks.

http://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/Turfgrasses/Fescue_Fine.aspx

I notice lawns everywhere in my area starting to produce seed heads this past week, including mine. It's not just annual bluegrass...KBG, PR, TF, and fine fescue...all are producing seeds.

If I were to mow the lawn as normal next weekend, would the seeds likely be mature enough to help overseed the lawn? Or would they have to stay on there for a very long time to be of any use?

PS: The TTPR is looking pretty decent lately after mowing a couple of weeks.

No color adjustments were made. The turf type rye grass is beautiful and durable. There is still a little shade in the morning from neighbors' trees.

I had a scare several weeks ago when it hit 85 degrees and sunny for a week or so last month. I almost lost the rye grass down near the pavement due to heat stress. I had to water like crazy to keep it from dying; it did go dormant for a while. But after the last couple of weeks of rain, it's looking good again. I also almost lost the remaining fine fescue as well.

You can see some annual rye that has germinated. I'm not overly concerned about it, but it's definitely there.

I have a few questions that relate to the choices and to the original issue.

How are you watering? You talked about watering like crazy and at the beginning you said it needed a crazy amount of water. Can you be much more explicit about what crazy means? How often do you water and for how long? How do you adjust watering during the cool and warm seasons?

Your favorite grass is PR but you seem to be afraid of watering it. Do you really want to live in constant fear of your lawn dying? I have a house on the edge of the Texas desert. Parts of my lawn have not been irrigated since last October when I turned off the sprinkler system (seasonal rains came). I can say I have been lucky with the timing of the rains since then, but it is also a matter of selecting the right grass and watering properly when you do water.

You posted pictures on March 27 at 21:19. In the fifth picture down, at about 1/3 down from the top and 1/3 in from the left there is a seed head starting to form. That looks like poa annua to me. Compare that to tiemco's picture from Mar 15, 12 at 19:08.

The issue of spring seeding was addressed by John at Mar 21, 12 at 10:24. I hope that resolved that issue for you. If you want to seed and already have a lawn, wait until late summer as tiemco repeatedly said at the beginning.

Your soil test should be back by now. If you will post the results here, tiemco usually volunteers to read those for you and suggest very specific materials to tune up your soil. For some corrections to work you need to start now to get finished by the end of the season. Some corrections take several seasons, so the sooner you get that done the better.

If you want to improve the quality of your garden pictures, take the pictures only in the shade (cloudy days, under trees, early morning or late afternoon, or under a portable umbrella). There is too much contrast in full sun to get good garden pictures.

I was really busy and the hot weather we had for a week or two sneaked up on me. So by the time I got around to watering, the grass was already going dormant. It only took half a week of 85 degree weather plus the semi-drought we had been under for the month prior. Some of the rye near the pavement almost died out. Thankfully, the plants regenerated.

I had to water as thoroughly as possible without drowining everything. I water manually, using sprinklers and also hand-held sprayers to target certain areas I can't hit with teh sprinklers. It can be a lot or work.

The grass is just starting to show the earliest signs of wanting water this afternoon. It's going to rain tomorrow night, so it should survive.

I haven't been able to do the soil test yet. I have a coupon for a free pH test, so I am going to start there. I will be off next week, but I've been busy up through the end of this week, including tonight.

As for pictures: I'm actually a pro photographer, but I was just too lazy to wait for good light for a few pictures that are just going up online to show my lawn! I didn't think people were going to evaluate the quality of these pictures, so I slacked off. I metered for the shaded areas and let the highlights blow. I love the color of the shaded areas though. It's a wonderful green.

btw, the March 27th pictures...they're not my grass.

I know it's not the greatest idea to water in the middle of the afternoon in hot weather, but I had to do it, or the grass would have died out. Ditto for watering around sunset, but I had to it some days as well. I tried to time it so it would dry out at least partially though before night though.

I try not to water on 2 consecutive days, but if it's dormant and nearly dying, I have to. It had turned brown near the curb in fact.

Ideally I'd be watering in the morning, but that just isn't possible. Again, it's a bit of work, turning off the home filter system, moving around hoses and sprinklers, setting them up, adjusting the flow, setting the timer, and then going out, moving it and doing it again every 15-60 minutes, then handwatering certain places, etc. I've been just using a single sprinkler because I don't want to deal with a bunch of hoses all over the lawn.

When I water, I just go by eye and feel. I can tell roughly based on the look and feel of the grass and soil surface whether I've watered for the right duration.

Watering midday when the weather is hot and dry isn't a huge problem, in fact it cools the grass down, but you don't want to do your major waterings at that time. Save that for morning before the sun rises.

Slowly but surely making progress. Just had a pH test done, and it was 6.0 in the important areas. Ideally we want it to be 7, right?

I'm not at all worried about watering in the afternoon. I do it all the time. The only issue is evaporation, and as tiemco points out, if your goal is to cool the lawn, evaporation is what you want.

Bobcats cannot compact the soil unless the soil is saturated with water. They can't even make it hard. What they can do is help settle the soil to an extent by driving over it repeatedly. In other words, don't blame anything on the Bobcat. What was the Bobcat supposed to be doing? Grading? The problem with soil that will not accept moisture is a lack of fungal population. Baby shampoo seems to allow water to penetrate and the result lasts a good long time. Being a naturist I like to believe that having deep moisture for extended periods of time allows the fungi to repopulate. In any case I used shampoo last summer and my lawn is still very soft when watered.

If you already have ruts, don't rototill or bring in any topsoil. Use what you have. Break it up. Take off the high spots and move them into the low spots. Once everything settles, you should not have any holes or hills.

As far as bluegrass, I'm looking for something that is not a compact type, and has medium to medium-coarse leaf texture, dense tillering and moderately aggressive rhizomic spreading habit habit, deep rooting, good disease resistance, dark to medium green color, upright growth habit, and can take both wet and dry spells. Full sun to partially shady in some areas. Two to three cultivars that I can purchase would be ideal, and then I can mix them. I need a good drought resistant cultivar or two in some areas. I dislike the look of the "compact" types though.

For tall fescue, I've had some great suggestions already. But if anyone has any other suggestions, let me know. I want something that has good density, spreads readily for fesuce, dark green, fine texture, and durable. A few drought prone areas here, too.

For TTTF I like Bullseye, as it has done very well in the NTEP's. I have experience with a few cultivars, and now that mine are a few years old, they do spread a bit. If you want one labeled as a "spreading" TTTF then take a look at the LS series (Firecracker, Titanium, and Spyder) as well as the SRP series of seed (Rhambler, Third Millenium, Traverse). Most tall fescue is pretty shade tolerant, but avoid the ones that tested poorly in the NTEP's. The info is all there, it's a great resource that cost a lot of money to do, but free for your use.

On the same theme, how can I use NTEP data to figure out the blade width of a cultivar. All it says is how a type ranks, but I don't know if a more "ideal" texture means finer blades or not. I've seen some KBG that is very fine and very low growing. I don't want that type. I have some right now are probably older cultivars, and they are nice and thick. Their blades are medium texture even on small plants that have rhizomed off of others. They are also medium to dark green.

What about the original midnight (non compact)? Is that something one can even purchase today? I believe when I was looking the other week, I came across Midnight, America, and Bewitched, as well as a few others that sounded good. So what you're recommending is agreeing with what I've come up with so far.

Is the LS on the Fescue something you have to look for (i.e. are there non-LS versions with the same names?). Wouldn't want to go the wrong direction!

See this page: http://www.bluegrasses.com/info/midnight.html
That is one that was confusing me about compact/dwarf.

I also came across Bedazzled, Dragon, Arc, Princeton 105, Moonshine, and SPF 30, in my research. Any opinions on any of these? not all seem to be listed in NTEP.

Apparently you haven't looked at the NTEP KBG trials in depth, since there are categories that rate blade width, and growth habit (prostrate vs. upright).

Yes, look for Firecracker LS. I believe there was a Firecracker, but I haven't seen it for sale on any of the seed seller sites. Same thing goes for Rhambler SRP, 3rd Millenium SRP, etc. Don't expect a tremendous amount of spreading, but it does happen to a degree when the grass is mature.

Bedazzled is a good cultivar, although it is not as dark as some people would like and tends to wake up early in the season (which is not a bad thing, but it can get a jump on slower cultivars). Most of the other ones you mentioned are older, and have been testing in previous NTEP trials. They are OK, but have fallen out of favor since newer ones outperform them.

Grass is a plant, and it requires sun, water, fertlizer, and good soil. Take away one or more of those, and it won't do well. If you have areas that don't get rain for a week or two in the summer, then you should irrigate to prevent stress, and dormancy in the first year.

So far, I've spent a lot of time on TTTF on NTEP. I haven't spent much time on KBG yet. I didn't realize the rankings/categories were so different.

As for irrigation, of course...the idea being to water once per week if needed during lack of rain...and let the water really soak in rather than watering lightly; I know. Not planning to let anything go brown if I can help it!

Comprehensive soil testing is the next thing on the agenda. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.

Now, not sure if we can really generalize the different species like this, but I have a question...is there a particular cool season grass species that best tolerates extreme stress/abuse?

What I mean is: being mowed close and frequently with a dull blade (1.25 inch height every three days, even during the heat of summer) when planted in a drought-prone burn zone that is entirely surrounded by asphalt?

Now, I'm not planning to stress grass in that way. (I always mow 2.5 to 3 inches, and tend to water when needed.) But I have a potential application in mind where that type of tolerance might be useful. I just want to know hypothetically for now, if there is any particular species that would tolerate such a situation better than the others. I was thinking maybe one of the newer turf-type tall fescues. But they need to be cut much higher as I understand it. It seems some of the bluegrasses can tolerate close cutting, but I'm not sure about the heat from the asphalt. In my own experience with ryegrass, it does decently well near pavement if watered when needed, but it doesn't tolerate the stress of close mowing very well.

Basically I would like to know what one would plant if looking for the most durable, drought-resistant, abuse-tolerating species of the three. now, before I get cross-examined or laughed off the forum, I just want to say I'm totally serious about this question, as crazy as it might sound. (I have a potential situation in mind in which those characteristics can be very useful.)

Thanks.

When a bunchgrass type of plant gets larger over time (such as in a place where some spaces have opened up), how does that influence its tolerance to such variables (e.g. close mowing) if at all?

The problem with using grass clippings though is a major one. I don't know how to accumulate enough. I was thinking of starting to bag my grass clippings a month and a half before I start seeding to get enough. I was thinking I'd dry them out in the driveway for a few hours on a hot/sunny day. That's all well and good. But then there's a storage problem. Even if I could get enough, and dry it out, I have no place to store it all. If I were to put it into paper leaf bags, it would just get went when it rains. Also, I'm wondering if decomposition might still be unavoidable even if dried out thoroughly and kept dry.

Any idea on the feasibility of using grass clippings for said purpose, the feasability of avoiding decomposition during a month of storage, and how to keep it dry?

Thanks in advance!

Now I want to share with you all these two photos of the same area. The first photo was taken on March 14th:

And the second photo was taken today of the same area:

It's amazing what a little TLC can do...there was no reseeding done between when these two photos were taken. THere are still bare spots in this area, but it is much improved. And this was virtually all PR, no KBG to speak of!

Finally had time to do soil testing today. Just mailed it out.

Also started to Roundup some weedy areas.

In another week I'm going to off, and plan to start my late summer/early fall lawn rennovation projects...acquiring materials, etc.

In the meaintime, I want to start exploring places to purchase seed (TTTF and KBG). I haven't yet picked cultivars, but I would like to know who are the best, most reputable dealers from whom I can order the seed.

Thanks.

I did this a little over a month ago now. I actually prefer the lawn consisting of a mixture of these three species, guess I'm odd since no one else here seems to like that three-way mix).

We're at ~4.5 weeks now. The existing PR thankfully did not prevent or delay germination of the new seed. The TTTF started to come up within 6 days, and was fully up in about 3 weeks time. The KBG just started coming up last week.

Perhaps it wored so well because the PR was only 10 months old. Or b/c it got heat stressed. Or b/c I mowed it to ~1.8 inches before hand on the last mowing before starting the project. I also thinned the lawn fairly drastically prior to over seeding, by utilizing heavy core aeration (three passes) and also verticutting (two passes). I brought up a lot of dead and living grass in the process.

I'm currently touching up the few spots that need it with a little extra seed.

Here are some photos of the project (same area plus or minus a foot or two) at the various stages for reference (I do consider it a successful outcome even if it was my first time doing it and I learned a lot!):

The top photo is the before photo, taken on 8/17/12. The middle photo is about ten days after overseeding, on 8/29/12. You can see the existing PR and KBG, and the TTTF was in the midst of germination, but is hard to see in the pic. And the bottom photo is from 9/21/12, taken right after the first mowing and application of starter fertilizer (I decided to hold off on the fertilizer until after germination so as to slow the growth of the existing grass to prevent it from overtaking the new grass. I'm glad I did this).

Here is what I used for overseeding:

-TTTF (approx 75% Firecracker LS and 25% Bullseye)
-KBG (approx 33% each of America, Bewitched, and Rugby II)
-A low amount of the existing TTPR seed blend (see below) was mixed with the fescue and KBG seed; I only used this in those areas that were really bare after the verticutting/raking. In this way, I created a uniform lawn in the bare spots that blended with the old grass.

(The existing lawn prior to overseeding was a blend of KBG and three cultivars of TTPR sourced from from Allied Seed: ASP6005, ASP6002, and ASP 6001.)

The existing KBG started to spread as the new grass germinated. Between the new grass and the existing KBG, the lawn is looking fairly thick now (see bottom photo in previous post). I was surprised how quickly it is filling in...I brought up so much living grass with the machinery, and it was really sparse after. But not anymore...it almost looks like an established lawn! And the cool thing is that the percentages of the grass types shifted just as I was hoping...beforehand, it was about 70% ryegrass, 30% bluegrass. Now it's probably 35% bluegrass, 30% Fescue, and 35% Rye. Apparently, tearing up the soil mechanically stimulated the existing bluegrass to spread aggressively. I never would have expected that; it was an unintended benefit of the process. Very interesting.